The Ugly Truth about the Clinical Psychology PhD

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I think you are creating a false dichotomy here. You seem to imply that "science" students are somehow better equipped to become psychologists. The corrolary of this argument is that broadly educated students with degrees in the humanities or other social sciences are somehow less well equipped to conduct research or to be psychologists than persons with a "science" background.

Is not the converse true?? Anyone can conduct research, run stats and publish a paper on a topic. But students with a background in the humanities or other social sciences may be far better at understanding the meaning and implications of research because their world view is broader and more comprehensive. I have a masters in psychology and have work mainly as a therapist but I also have a doctoral degree in social anthropology from a world class British institution (from back in the stone age of the 1980's). The central question that anthropology asks as a discipline is "what does it mean to be a human being." Would not someone like myself be able to understand psychological research from a vastly broader and more comprehensive worldview than a person with a degree in chemistry?? I should also note that persons active in other social and behavioral sciences such as anthropology or sociology don't engage in this incessant neurotic hand wringing over professional roles and educational models. In contrast to the other disciplines, psychology seems wracked by identity crises.

To some degree this is because specialists in the other social sciences are far less fixated on experimental methodologies and have made extensive use of ethnography and other more qualitative methods. Sociocultural anthropologists are quite confident in ethnography as a methodology and are not particularly concerned about the "science" in the field. I have the feeling that psychologists are so deeply concerned about "science" because psychologists perceive themselves as falling short in relation to the physical and biological sciences. Some have dubbed this as "physics envy" on the part of academic psychology.

Conversely, many psychologists in academe (Timothy Baker and Richard McFall perhaps) regard fields that don't use experimental methods as something less than scientific (ignoring the reality that fields such as astronomy and astrophysics use observational rather than experimental data). The flip side of the inferiority complex is a sense of superiority with regard to other disciplines such as sociology and anthropology and their associated methodologies. Of course professional applied roles are different. Applied anthropologists and sociologists also do not to work in health care as "providers" but instead function as consultants and researchers and so they don't have an inferiority complex vis a vis medicine. Of course, psychology's inferiority complex with medicine is directly related to its longstanding inferiority complex vis a vis physics and biology. Psychology as a field needs to "grow a pair" and regard itself and its methodologies with true confidence while conversely appreciating data generated from other fields. It also should have the confidence to embrace multiple visions of itself. Dysfunctional systems have enormous difficulty embracing more than one worldview so in this sense the field of psychology is dysfunctional and the endless angst is a reflection of this.

This made me smile as it sums up my perspective on the dichotomy as it stands within psychology. Bravo and well stated.

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Aren't they? When your major is one that football players are steered to, it suggests a problem. Other more challenging majors don't have lots of these folks (e.g., engineering, physics, and so on).

this is so incredulous. Please tell me you're kidding.
 
That's a rather juvenile way to put it ". . . cuz you suck." It's also not really an accurate representation of what you get here. If "cuz you suck" is your translation of what you get here, then you must be talking to the wrong people outside of here.

Sure, it lacks the pizazz of a long-winded explanation, but it's true. Threads abound that basically say that PsyD applicants are less capable. What else am I supposed to take from those statements? More to the point, how stupid would I have to be to not realize the underlying message of hundreds of posts?

The crux of the matter is this idea that if we didn't suck oh so bad that we'd get a "good" degree (ie PhD) -- even if that person got into PhD programs and made the informed choice to go for PsyD.

In the end, it's ignorance of the degree as a whole and I find it extremely offensive.
 
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This is something that has always bugged me. It seems that many believe if they work hard enough, they deserve to get in and be able to complete a doctorate on their terms (part-time, online, etc). I think the field has suffered because there have been too many compromises already.

I mostly agree here. I don't think doctoral programs should bend over backwards to allow part-time study unless someone has a disability. People talk about it, but realistically, how sustainable is an 8+ year doctorate? I don't mean for the field, but for personal life. The attrition rate would be ridiculous.

People use relationships and children as things to blame for "needing" part time doctoral study, but I don't buy it (and don't encourage it). Just yesterday my GF and I were talking about the logistics of having two apartments -- this after living together for 5 years and being engaged. I even joked to her that I'd probably just buy a twin-size bed so she wouldn't have to worry about someone else being in it! :laugh: We're both mature adults and can adapt (or make the decision to break up) because we're in a healthy relationship. If your partner doesn't approve of your study (or demands you go pt), then part-time study is the last thing you should be requesting.

But to go back to disabilities -- more and more people with them are pursuing advanced study. Based on my knowledge of this subject, it looks like this is one area where online and hybrid courses really shine. If someone is easily physically fatigued (like with chemo), they can combine F2F courses with working on a dissertation proposal or possibly take smaller courses online. Or pursue a master's program that accommodates their illness, or take an LOA. This is not psyc-specific.
 
Sure, it lacks the pizazz of a long-winded explanation, but it's true. Threads abound that basically say that PsyD applicants are less capable. What else am I supposed to take from those statements? More to the point, how stupid would I have to be to not realize the underlying message of hundreds of posts?

The crux of the matter is this idea that if we didn't suck oh so bad that we'd get a "good" degree (ie PhD) -- even if that person got into PhD programs and made the informed choice to go for PsyD.

In the end, it's ignorance of the degree as a whole and I find it extremely offensive.

:bang:
See above reference to distribution curves.
 
In regards to the thought that the field of Psychology just needs to "grow a pair" and be proud of who we are as a discipline:
This view is slightly dangerous, if only because there are some serious flaws in our methodology and data analysis. Serious enough to relegate our field to pseudo-science? Of course not, but serious enough to call into question some of our findings. These points have been rehashed endlessly on other threads, so I'll just pick one and mention the problems with psychology's statistical technique of choice, the Null Hypothesis Significance Test. We can argue about its necessity to the field, but its basic premises are seriously flawed so that it really tells us almost nothing about the data. And this is the foundation of our field. Interesting. Now tell me again we should just grow a pair and defend our data analysis techniques to the world.

People speak of the divides within the discipline as if they were arbitrary and unneeded. On the contrary, some of these questions are actually crucial to the field. Our future could depend on how we answer them. The "science vs. practice" debate is ridiculous at times, but at its heart lies a real question. In my opinion, there are too many in our field who dismiss the importance of empiricism and the scientific method. Unless we do something about this problem, our field is in serious trouble. The answer is not for us to simply just man up and defend ourselves (although that would certainly be nice. Are you listening APA?). We need to take a hard look at ourselves and undertake some serious reform.
 
This is something that has always bugged me. It seems that many believe if they work hard enough, they deserve to get in and be able to complete a doctorate on their terms (part-time, online, etc). I think the field has suffered because there have been too many compromises already.

Agreed, T, I don't think that anyone and everyone should get a doctorate. I'm more emphasizing that some programs are more clinically-oriented, and some are more research-oriented. Frankly, I keep quiet on the bigger issue because I'm likely pretty radical in my thoughts on the issue...I would upset more people than would be worth it. :)
 
If there's anything I learned from the philosophy of science, it's that pretty much nothing holds up to the standards of pure science. I think of psych more like medicine, which is also not really a science.
 
These points have been rehashed endlessly on other threads, so I'll just pick one and mention the problems with psychology's statistical technique of choice, the Null Hypothesis Significance Test. We can argue about its necessity to the field, but its basic premises are seriously flawed so that it really tells us almost nothing about the data. And this is the foundation of our field. Interesting. Now tell me again we should just grow a pair and defend our data analysis techniques to the world.

I understand there is criticism regarding the issue of significance testing. But since other fields in the biological sciences use the same statistical criterion it is unlikely that this issue denigrates psychology as a pseudo-science anymore than it would the other sciences.
 
People use relationships and children as things to blame for "needing" part time doctoral study, but I don't buy it (and don't encourage it). Just yesterday my GF and I were talking about the logistics of having two apartments -- this after living together for 5 years and being engaged. I even joked to her that I'd probably just buy a twin-size bed so she wouldn't have to worry about someone else being in it! :laugh: We're both mature adults and can adapt (or make the decision to break up) because we're in a healthy relationship. If your partner doesn't approve of your study (or demands you go pt), then part-time study is the last thing you should be requesting.

I respect your viewpoint, but we'll see how you feel about this if/when you're partnered with several kids in tow. Not everyone has the ability to get their career squared away before they have the obligations of family to consider.
 
The qualitative method can be utilized in every day life as long as we are conscious of the psychosocial forces that are taking place.

I disagree; qualitative research actually involves a fair bit of methodology and a lot time, attention to multiple data sources, and collaboration (inter-rater agreement). Qualitative skills, yes. Qualitative research methods, no so much.
 
Ignorance. . . interesting. Enlighten me?
"Everything is based on mind, is led by mind, is fashioned by mind. If you speak and act with a polluted mind, suffering will follow you, as the wheels of the oxcart follow the footsteps of the ox. Everything is based on mind, is led by mind, is fashioned by mind. If you speak and act with a pure mind, happiness will follow you, as a shadow clings to a form."
--Siddhartha Gautama
 
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I disagree; qualitative research actually involves a fair bit of methodology and a lot time, attention to multiple data sources, and collaboration (inter-rater agreement). Qualitative skills, yes. Qualitative research methods, no so much.
I see your point. I guess what I meant to say is that there is very little separation between using qualitative skills in daily life or in research. I did partake in some qualitative research and all the time it took to just transcribe the interview and code the data into something more substantive took quite a bit of time. I'm sure in the near future there will be a more competent software that can transcribe interviews quickly.
 
I respect your viewpoint, but we'll see how you feel about this if/when you're partnered with several kids in tow. Not everyone has the ability to get their career squared away before they have the obligations of family to consider.
That's fair. I decided long ago to not adopt until after grad school and setting up a stable practice, so I don't have children. I still don't think part-time doctoral study is very sustainable as a lifestyle, although I have met several people who've done it. Probably depends on your personal style, your resources (incl spouse and family help), and the specifics of your program.
 
That's fair. I decided long ago to not adopt until after grad school and setting up a stable practice, so I don't have children. I still don't think part-time doctoral study is very sustainable as a lifestyle, although I have met several people who've done it. Probably depends on your personal style, your resources (incl spouse and family help), and the specifics of your program.

Yeah, it is tough to do a doctoral program part-time, to be sure. It's been hard for me to do full-time, even with a spouse available a lot of the time. I do think that after the first two years of coursework a lot of us "defacto" go part-time, taking maybe an extra year to complete the dissertation or to apply for internship. It's a long road even full-time, so stringing it out much longer is not too appealing. Still, I know some students who took 7 or 8 years to finish because various life events happened along the way. Most of them are doing fine now in their careers, and I see them as no less competent or committed because of the delays.
 
Yeah, it is tough to do a doctoral program part-time, to be sure. It's been hard for me to do full-time, even with a spouse available a lot of the time. I do think that after the first two years of coursework a lot of us "defacto" go part-time, taking maybe an extra year to complete the dissertation or to apply for internship. It's a long road even full-time, so stringing it out much longer is not too appealing. Still, I know some students who took 7 or 8 years to finish because various life events happened along the way. Most of them are doing fine now in their careers, and I see them as no less competent or committed because of the delays.
That's a great point, I hadn't thought of it that way. Gives a new dimensions to the years-to-completion stats. :)
 
Nice quote. . . irrelevant of course, but nice quote. I translate that to, "I've got nothing."

If that's what you took from the quite, then I won't waste my breath on you.
 
We can communicate in metaphor though, if you wish. Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra. . . if you get that reference without searching for it, welcome to geek land.

I recognize that as a Star Trek reference, but frankly I've been in GeekLand for years. I currently man the bumper cars. :rolleyes:

Also, it's not really a metaphor (although it includes an analogy). It's a statement and one I agree with.
 
I think a big problem with psychology is that it has an identity crisis. Yes, psychology can be very science oriented but it can also be very theoretical and wishy washy.


Whoa whoa whoa. The classes you go on to list as "wishy washy" can be taught in very scientific ways. Also, they are an integral part of psychology! Let us never forget that psychology originated in philosophy! There is grave danger in forcing psychology into the same mold as a natural science. Humans are not electrons. I value science, but I think a psychology major that does not include theoretical or even philosophical classes is woefully lacking.

I'm so sick of this "science is harder and therefore better" rhetoric. The thing I love about psychology is that it has a broad range of subject areas that span natural science, social science, and humanities. To exclude any of these areas is a disservice to the discipline. For example, I have seen many (but obviously not all) science majors come out of undergrad with writing skills far inferior to their humanities-oriented peers. And, I would like to see someone who has taken only science classes battle with the philosophy of psychology or really dig his/her teeth into DSM's conceptual, philosophical, theoretical, and non-empirical flaws.

Also, if done correctly, theoretical classes can be "hard." I took a course on Philosophy and Psychotherapy that not many people did well in.

I reiterate that every major will have easier and harder classes, and every major will have "jocks" and "nerds." The truth of the matter is that those who are not as motivated to learn will just not do as well in ANY major compared to their peers.

Besides, I thought sociology was the major for slackers? (JUST KIDDING!)
 
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Whoa whoa whoa. The classes you go on to list as "wishy washy" can be taught in very scientific ways. Also, they are an integral part of psychology! Let us never forget that psychology originated in philosophy! There is grave danger in forcing psychology into the same mold as a natural science. Humans are not electrons. I value science, but I think a psychology major that does not include theoretical or even philosophical classes is woefully lacking.


Theory and philosophy is nice, but if the theory has no evidence to back it up then it is useless. Freud had some nice theories about infant attachment, but you don't hear a whole lot about the Oedipus Complex in modern psychology do you. At least, I hope not. If any PSYC 101 students are still being seriously taught some of Freud's more... interesting theories I would die a little on the inside.

In short, I value theory and philosophy, but any theory that does not have strong basis in evidence is not worth being taught. That being said, I would much rather take a course on the Psychology of Women that has a strong basis in the literature than I would a Developmental Psych class that focuses entirely on the theories of Erikson or Freud without critically examining these ideas from an empirical standpoint. The burden lies on the theorist to prove his/her theory right, not on the rest of us to prove the theory wrong.
 
Theory and philosophy is nice, but if the theory has no evidence to back it up then it is useless. Freud had some nice theories about infant attachment, but you don't hear a whole lot about the Oedipus Complex in modern psychology do you. At least, I hope not. If any PSYC 101 students are still being seriously taught some of Freud's more... interesting theories I would die a little on the inside.

In short, I value theory and philosophy, but any theory that does not have strong basis in evidence is not worth being taught. That being said, I would much rather take a course on the Psychology of Women that has a strong basis in the literature than I would a Developmental Psych class that focuses entirely on the theories of Erikson or Freud without critically examining these ideas from an empirical standpoint. The burden lies on the theorist to prove his/her theory right, not on the rest of us to prove the theory wrong.

This type of theory should be relegated to the realm of history of psychology, IMO, which is also important and interesting.

The theory behind modern systems and empirical inquiry is what I am referring to, for the most part.

Theory and empiricism dovetail nicely, and I never argued that you should ignore the evidence and look only at the theory, just as you shouldn't ignore the theory and underpinning philosophy and look only at the empirical data.
 
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This type of theory should be relegated to the realm of history of psychology, IMO, which is also important and interesting.

The theory behind modern systems and empirical inquiry is what I am referring to, for the most part.

Theory and empiricism dovetail nicely, and I never argued that you should ignore the evidence and look only at the theory, just as you shouldn't ignore the theory and underpinning philosophy and look only at the empirical data.

Interesting. It appears we are mostly in agreement then. There are still some modern theories that have really not been fully integrated with current research, and I would argue that they should be taught a little more critically than they are. However, data points with no overlying theory are pretty boring indeed. As long as there is data to back up the big picture, then we are on the same page.
I just get concerned that the field of psychology can get too attached to theories (be in Freud, Piaget, or others) that are too far removed from modern scholarship to be of any use. Theories provide a nice neat framework that often does not hold up to scrutiny in the real world, which is much messier than any theoretical framework.
 
You're making a dichotomy that doesn't exist. Psychology is the study of human behavior. Science is a method of thought. All of these things are included.

I'm not sure how making a straw man to argue against really helps the dialogue. I know that science is a method of thought. In fact, it was a psychology class that introduced me to Karl Popper and other influential players in the conceptualization of science. Psychology is the study of human behavior, which spans natural science, social science, and humanities. If you don't agree that those are categories with differing characteristics, maybe you should tell every college in the U.S. that there isn't a difference between natural science and social science?

Perhaps some clarification in your short response would indicate that we agree on more than we disagree, which I suspect might be the case.
 
Interesting. It appears we are mostly in agreement then. There are still some modern theories that have really not been fully integrated with current research, and I would argue that they should be taught a little more critically than they are. However, data points with no overlying theory are pretty boring indeed. As long as there is data to back up the big picture, then we are on the same page.
I just get concerned that the field of psychology can get too attached to theories (be in Freud, Piaget, or others) that are too far removed from modern scholarship to be of any use. Theories provide a nice neat framework that often does not hold up to scrutiny in the real world, which is much messier than any theoretical framework.


Agreed. :)
 
Whoa whoa whoa. The classes you go on to list as "wishy washy" can be taught in very scientific ways. Also, they are an integral part of psychology! Let us never forget that psychology originated in philosophy! There is grave danger in forcing psychology into the same mold as a natural science. Humans are not electrons. I value science, but I think a psychology major that does not include theoretical or even philosophical classes is woefully lacking.

I'm so sick of this "science is harder and therefore better" rhetoric. The thing I love about psychology is that it has a broad range of subject areas that span natural science, social science, and humanities. To exclude any of these areas is a disservice to the discipline. For example, I have seen many (but obviously not all) science majors come out of undergrad with writing skills far inferior to their humanities-oriented peers. And, I would like to see someone who has taken only science classes battle with the philosophy of psychology or really dig his/her teeth into DSM's conceptual, philosophical, theoretical, and non-empirical flaws.

Also, if done correctly, theoretical classes can be "hard." I took a course on Philosophy and Psychotherapy that not many people did well in.

I reiterate that every major will have easier and harder classes, and every major will have "jocks" and "nerds." The truth of the matter is that those who are not as motivated to learn will just not do as well in ANY major compared to their peers.

Besides, I thought sociology was the major for slackers? (JUST KIDDING!)

I agree that the classes CAN be taught as a science but the also CANNOT be taught as a science which IMO makes them wishy washy in a way that the student can coast by and not get much out of it. This is just in my experiences so take it with a grain of salt (yes i finally got to use that saying!) Other sciences are always taught like a science but psychology is more in a gray area so that's the point I was trying to make.

I understand that humans are complex and you need more subjective ways to study them. I'm actually a sociology minor and yes it is for slackers lol. (another thing influencing my perception is that I'm on the IRRC at my school and the sociology research proposals are awful compared to other proposals) But I think psychologists should focus on science more to advance themselves. We have fields like philosophy and sociology that can deal with more subjective stuff.

Note: I actually was more into theroetical psychology and philosophy and all that non-sciencey type stuff until my neuroscience professor got me interested in neuropsychology and I started seeing things differently. So, I can see both sides, I've just switched to the dark side if you will. :laugh:
 
I agree that the classes CAN be taught as a science but the also CANNOT be taught as a science which IMO makes them wishy washy in a way that the student can coast by and not get much out of it. This is just in my experiences so take it with a grain of salt (yes i finally got to use that saying!) Other sciences are always taught like a science but psychology is more in a gray area so that's the point I was trying to make.

I understand that humans are complex and you need more subjective ways to study them. I'm actually a sociology minor and yes it is for slackers lol. (another thing influencing my perception is that I'm on the IRRC at my school and the sociology research proposals are awful compared to other proposals) But I think psychologists should focus on science more to advance themselves. We have fields like philosophy and sociology that can deal with more subjective stuff.

Note: I actually was more into theroetical psychology and philosophy and all that non-sciencey type stuff until my neuroscience professor got me interested in neuropsychology and I started seeing things differently. So, I can see both sides, I've just switched to the dark side if you will. :laugh:

How is it possible that the same class CAN and CANNOT be taught as a science? Is it possible for my shirt to be blue and not blue concurrently? Do you mean that it sometimes is and sometimes isn't? That is a different assertion.

I never used the word "subjective," but since you bring it up, I don't believe there is any truly "objective" way to study most behavior. A look at the philosophy of science and epistemology informs that conclusion. For example, just asserting that depression is bad is a normative, subjective judgment. (Edited to say that I am not by any means a post-modernist ontological anti-realist, in case anyone cares).

I completely disagree with your assertion that science necessarily fosters course difficulty. Anyone can follow a lab guide to do a proper titration (or could let their lab partner do it). It isn't everyone who can write a well-argued and organized essay for a feminist psychology class or a history class, for example. This is why all of those very different classes are important. A major who makes it through taking only what you would call "sciency" classes is just as disadvantaged as the major who makes it through taking only what you would call "wishy washy" classes, IMHO.

And for the record, I am every much a data head as the rest of you. I currently research evidence-based treatments for youth psychopathology. My point is simply that we can't get lost in data; it is detrimental to the field to ignore underlying conceptual issues. It is a false choice to choose between science and the philosophical underpinnings of psychology. Advancing the field requires a broad set of skills and pursuits, and an appreciation for both psychology's future and past. The simple truth is that psychology originated in philosophy. It has since undergone a complex evolution that has brought it far from its roots, but an understanding of that evolution is important. It would be scary to see psychology morph into a science that ignores these roots given that it deals with the lives of people and not simple electrons.

I agree with most of you more than I think you realize. I'm just advocating for a more nuanced understanding of the field.

I don't mean to hijack this thread and so will not post here again, but if you would like to continue this discourse, I am happy to chat through PMs. :)
 
How is it possible that the same class CAN and CANNOT be taught as a science? Is it possible for my shirt to be blue and not blue concurrently? Do you mean that it sometimes is and sometimes isn't? That is a different assertion.

I never used the word "subjective," but since you bring it up, I don't believe there is any truly "objective" way to study most behavior. A look at the philosophy of science and epistemology informs that conclusion. For example, just asserting that depression is bad is a normative, subjective judgment. (Edited to say that I am not by any means a post-modernist ontological anti-realist, in case anyone cares).

I completely disagree with your assertion that science necessarily fosters course difficulty. Anyone can follow a lab guide to do a proper titration (or could let their lab partner do it). It isn't everyone who can write a well-argued and organized essay for a feminist psychology class or a history class, for example. This is why all of those very different classes are important. A major who makes it through taking only what you would call "sciency" classes is just as disadvantaged as the major who makes it through taking only what you would call "wishy washy" classes, IMHO.

And for the record, I am every much a data head as the rest of you. I currently research evidence-based treatments for youth psychopathology. My point is simply that we can't get lost in data; it is detrimental to the field to ignore underlying conceptual issues. It is a false choice to choose between science and the philosophical underpinnings of psychology. Advancing the field requires a broad set of skills and pursuits, and an appreciation for both psychology's future and past. The simple truth is that psychology originated in philosophy. It has since undergone a complex evolution that has brought it far from its roots, but an understanding of that evolution is important. It would be scary to see psychology morph into a science that ignores these roots given that it deals with the lives of people and not simple electrons.

I agree with most of you more than I think you realize. I'm just advocating for a more nuanced understanding of the field.

I don't mean to hijack this thread and so will not post here again, but if you would like to continue this discourse, I am happy to chat through PMs. :)

Psychology classes CAN and CANNOT (lol sorry about the caps oh well) be taught as a science because there are two ways of looking at the same material. Example: my personality class at my college has two professors that teach it. one focuses the more scientific views of personality with hard data from experiments and one focuses on my theoretical and subjective views of personality. the ladder class is much easier.

I suppose it is just my experience and that's why I don't mind you reprimanding me to support your own experiences. At my college all of the humanities are easier. The history, english, and sociology majors get more cum laude ect. than the biology, chemistry, phyisics, and psychology. Its heavily distorted. Is this because my college just has more rigourous coursework for the sciences than the humanities? Maybe. Perhaps I'm just biased and don't have alternative viewpoints to experience. Or perhaps my logic is faulty because I'm taking breaks doing REU application essays to post on here and my motivation type soundly is lacking. Either way I appreciate your feedback.
 
I'd wager the quality of that work is higher on average than that of those from non-scientist clinical programs.

Yes, because we have the wanna be therapist crowd (a mix of social work and psyd crowd) that in my opinion lack the intelligence and creativity necessary to further the field (or even not drag it down).


If we look at research on creativity, it looks like we need at least a 120 IQ or so to function well. . . we should be weeding out folks that are less capable than that. That's not a particulary high bar in the professional world.

Wow.

Arrogance shrouded in scientific discourse, statistical deposition, and wildly biased opinion.
 
I grow weary of such accusations. Arrogance. The definition of arrogance is essentially undue pride. In what exactly am I showing arrogance? To me, this shrill cry is simply a deflection.

Each of your post's arrogance speak for themselves. I don't think it's a reach to charge your statements with a sense of undue pride.

I gotta ask though, was your family killed by a pack of wild PsyDs or something? What's with the agenda?

Also, I'm not sure you are aware, but PsyD students don't exactly spend 5 years knitting sweaters... but I do apologize for polluting the psychological intelligence pool in which your potential clients foolishly seek help, I'd assume you'd feel.
 
I agree. I worry that your initial statement here may have come close to over-generalizing, but I don't think that "arrogance" fits it. Sometimes the hard truths are the ones that are met with the most resistance and the ones that need most to be said.


I agree that brutal honestly is our friend; however, not at the expense of shameless statements that attack the intelligence of the audience.
 
But, my posts do not speak arrogance. Also, I have said nothing of my own self-perception. Further, even if I did, you have no platform from which to evaluate any such claims. Therefore, your arrogance accusation is unjustified and a . . . deflection.


The agenda is the betterment of the field. Shouldn't we all have this agenda?


Care to offer a relevant argument?

Yikes... I'm starting to get the picture.

Betterment = Get rid of the PsyD

And an argument to prove that PsyD students don't knit sweaters for 5 years? Jon, you're being ridiculous now, come on.
 
But seriously, I'm mean and well, I'm mean. That's basically your argument. Got something better?

Nope, I think I've said all I needed to say. And your personality shows clearer with every post. A person like you cannot be argued with because you will argue semantics and ask for "proof" in discourse that is ludicrous in the first place.

I appreciate your time. God help the people you mean to help.
 
Right, I get called arrogant (and ignorant earlier) and start to get irritated. That's well off the normal distribution of responses.

I'm not asking for "proof," I'm asking for logic. But, you can't or will not provide that.


Remind me again what you are asking proof for? The sweater knitting thing?

"Right, I get called arrogant (and ignorant earlier) and start to get irritated. That's well off the normal distribution of responses."

No, it's normal to get irritated when someone claims you are something you are not. So when someone calls me a "wanna be therapist," it causes me to have an "irritated response." Pardon my "woman-like" arguing, it may have been caused by an irritation causing stimulus. (To keep the terms scientific)
 
Paranoia in yours?

Proof of? I'm not asking for proof, I'm asking for logic. There are several interesting issues that have been raised in the thread. . . by me and by others. Respond to one of these with something useful, not silly insults.

You said I argued like a woman, Dr. Jon. Common now.

I really wouldn't call insulting the intelligence of others such as PsyDs or MSWs useful. Entertaining? Maybe. Provocative? Also, maybe.
 
Yes, because we have the wanna be therapist crowd (a mix of social work and psyd crowd) that in my opinion lack the intelligence and creativity necessary to further the field (or even not drag it down).

Not my grouping, sir.


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Good edit, Doc.

Also, you have a funny way of saying "breezy open door," as cited above.
 
Eureka! Jon, by any chance are you half vulcan? ;)

I haven't laughed that hard in a while. If I hadn't just watched the new Trek movie a few days ago, I wouldn't have gotten that. Thanks mama.
 
Isn't the way I said it pretty much the consequence of a wide open door policy to admission?

Maybe I genuinely missed something. Are you saying PsyD programs have wide open door admissions policies? Or that that is what happens more often in PsyD programs? I'm don't think I'm following...
 

With all due respect, Jon, you're wrong. Rutgers has a psyd program; they admit less than 5% of their applicants. Breezy is just not the adjective I'd use to describe that program's admissions standards. Sorry...
 
The line is grey. But, most. There are a few that are not this way (e.g. Rutgers).


edit: Psychmama,

With all due respect, Rutgers is an exception to the rule. It was one of the prototype Vail model programs before it was intercepted by the various profits and not for profits that encompass its majority. I am not wrong.

Can I offer another perspective?

Is it possible that there exists more people, who are intelligent and competent, than there are seats in PhD programs? Is it possible that those who may not attain a seat in these programs go on to earn their degrees in less prestigious programs yet are also intelligent, competent, quality therapists?
 
Yes, I believe that's the case. But, then we get into all sorts of peripheral yet critical issues. . . supply and demand curves for education (consumers of professional schools), supply and demand curves for our services, consequences of relatively non-truncated samples on the demographics of the field, consequences of debt in the context of low incomes, consequences of the introduction of different types/caliber of student into the professional ranks, etc. . .

All right, agreed. But I also believe that putting too much emphasis on the admissions standards of PsyD programs overshadows the fact that just because a person is admitted to a highly selective PhD program it does not make them an intelligent (in terms of therapy), competent, creative, quality therapist. To echo so many others here on this forum, graduate school, in lieu of the competitive nature of differing types of programs, is what you make of it, and how you apply what you've learned to your practice. In other words, buying a pair of $200 basketball sneakers doesn't ensure you will be the next Michael Jordan. There's a lot of bad basketball players out there that can afford those same shoes.
 
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That's true, but we have to think past the individual and more to distribution curves and general impacts on our field.

Maybe I'm just not at that point yet in my experience. I won't contend that there is so much wrong with the field and those in the clinical population, but my concern isn't quite in the realm of seeing current doctoral admissions standards as a cataclysm. Perhaps in need of tweaking, in several areas; not just admissions.
 
What about LaSalle? I think they're a pretty good program.
 
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