The ultimate COVID thread

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vector2 said:
Think it through... can you even imagine the number of cops who are gonna escalate the situation by drawing their weapon immediately, unnecessarily kill someone, and then claim they were "going for the arm"
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Especially since we've got pretty good data on how bad most cops are at shooting accurately.
 
chocomorsel said:
Warning shots and shooting non vital parts is done in Spain. FYI
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Some US jurisdictions explicitly prohibit warning shots out of safety, due to the laws of physics. That warning shot bullet has to go/land somewhere. If shot downwards it could ricochet. If shot over someone's head, or simply towards the sky, the bullet will fall back to earth with substantial energy.

"A round from a medium-caliber handgun blast can fall back to Earth at 150 mph and up to 2 1/2 miles from where it was fired, experts warn. At such a speed, falling bullets can easily kill a person or become lodged in buildings and cars."

I'm a military-trained expert marksman. Just for curiosity a few years ago I tried the "shoot non-vital parts" at the range with my pistol with 4 inch barrel (standard size carried by on-duty police). Sure, under controlled conditions (stationary, adrenaline not coursing through my system, utilizing proper shooting BRASS procedure), I could put the round essentially wherever I wanted. With the range safety officer's OK, I then took a position 25 years away from the firing line, did a few jumping jacks, then ran full speed to the firing line and immediately fired. I was lucky to hit the target under those conditions.

I applaud the Spanish shooters if they're that good. In reality I don't think it's a safe policy.

www.nola.com

Falling-bullet warnings renewed; dangerous tradition puts EMS on guard

Paramedics in New Orleans don't need explicit reminders about the potential danger of falling bullets, the ones that come down after revelers shoot them into the air at midnight on
www.nola.com www.nola.com
 
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doctalaughs said:
I’m open to changing my mind if those are established facts. They are claims from 1 side though (that is bringing the case against him) so I would expect them to be 1 sided.

1. the kick would be very damming if it wasn’t a nudge to see if he’s responsive/still fighting

2. The part about policies with running and being shot in the back is irrelevant as we can all watch the video. If he had a gun, not a taser, then this wouldn’t be even be local news because he obviously turned to fire on the officers. Whether the bullet entered his front or back while he was running vs standing a second later doesn’t matter.

Btw anyone who knows anything about guns will tell you the “wounding shot” in the leg/arm is total fantasy (only in the movies) and not done anywhere in the world. Arms/legs are very hard to hit, don’t have stopping power and also have plenty of potential to hit a big artery anyway.
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1. Would it be surprising that Rayshard Brooks was kicked after being shot? No, it wouldn't. We've seen it before, and we will see it again.

2. The part about running and being shot is COMPLETELY RELEVANT BECAUSE police need to be held accountable both for thought and lack of thought. The cops KNEW he was unarmed. He admitted so in one of the first questions. They patted him down. The cop, had he paused, would have KNOWN Rayshard had a 1) taser and 2) it was empty and 3) by running away unarmed he posed no threat! You can't shoot first and ask questions later - it's a huge problem we have to address. That he was shot in the back while running away is wholly relevant to this case, those before it, and any case after. These police officers HAVE to be held accountable in US law. If there is NO LAW to hold them accountable for this thoughtless killing, we must change the law to hold them accountable.

What Rayshard did was wrong, clearly. I'm not excusing it. For his DUI he should have gone to jail. He was endangering innocents all around him. He must be held accountable. Resisting arrest is WRONG - he should have been held accountable. That doesn't mean kill him when he resists.

IT IS NOT OK for our police forces to have a developed and trained mentality of 1) shoot first 2) ask questions later. The mentality must change. The training must change. If they aren't going to change for themselves, and based on how they've responded to the protests they have ZERO INTEREST in changing, the American public IS RESPONSIBLE for forcing change on them. And if no sensible change occurs (not the BS MAGA crap we are seeing....) then I'm going to fall into the camping of completely defunding them all and starting from scratch.

P.S. How ****ing dumb must a police officer be to shoot a man they should have known was unarmed given the current politically charged environment of our country? Especially as it relates to police, white cops, and black men. You gotta be an awful freaking stupid police officer to shot an unarmed man running away from you, even if he resisted arrest. Add a charge of completely ****ing stupid on the list of charges for former Officer Rolfe.
 
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Newtwo said:
So is the plan to keep on going until you dont? Or is there a plan?
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Let's ask our trusty governor. He seems hell bent on keeping the state open for business although he is "thinking" of possibly closing down. But today we made headway because he gave permission to the mayors to ask residents to wear mask. So many people not wearing masks around here.
 
chocomorsel said:
Warning shots and shooting non vital parts is done in Spain. FYI
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That's dumb.

And just what we need, lowering the decision threshold for cops to discharge firearms. Firing a gun in the direction of a person should always be considered lethal force.

Cops as a group are terrible handlers of firearms. Many do the minimum practice to qualify.

"It was just a warning shot that hit the bystander."

"I only meant to shoot the tennis racket out of his hand, didn't mean to hit him in the forehead!"
 
pgg said:
That's dumb.

And just what we need, lowering the decision threshold for cops to discharge firearms. Firing a gun in the direction of a person should always be considered lethal force.

Cops as a group are terrible handlers of firearms. Many do the minimum practice to qualify.

"It was just a warning shot that hit the bystander."

"I only meant to shoot the tennis racket out of his hand, didn't mean to hit him in the forehead!"
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They are clearly trained much better in Europe. Their training takes a hell of a lot longer than 19 weeks.
 
chocomorsel said:
They are clearly trained much better in Europe. Their training takes a hell of a lot longer than 19 weeks.
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Doesn't matter.

Monty Python said:
I'm a military-trained expert marksman. Just for curiosity a few years ago I tried the "shoot non-vital parts" at the range with my pistol with 4 inch barrel (standard size carried by on-duty police). Sure, under controlled conditions (stationary, adrenaline not coursing through my system, utilizing proper shooting BRASS procedure), I could put the round essentially wherever I wanted. With the range safety officer's OK, I then took a position 25 years away from the firing line, did a few jumping jacks, then ran full speed to the firing line and immediately fired. I was lucky to hit the target under those conditions.

I applaud the Spanish shooters if they're that good. In reality I don't think it's a safe policy.
Click to expand...

Monty's being polite, but the Spanish shooters aren't that good. It wouldn't surprise me if their police have better training, work harder at de-escalation, or need a higher threshold for drawing a weapon.

I totally agree with his assessment of the difficulty of making handgun shots like that under stressful circumstances, or from distances beyond about 5 yards.
 
chocomorsel said:
They are clearly trained much better in Europe. Their training takes a hell of a lot longer than 19 weeks.
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One last time! There is basically no such thing as Europe. Its not a country, there are no uniform laws or police training or even policies. Its a barely strung together financial union that shares almost nothing else. the majority of countries hate their neighbours and have been at war with them for 800 years.

Re guns and police. Its really simple. Almost no-one in 'Europe' own guns. And if they do, they're hunting rifles. Vast majority. Not concealable, not a great close combat weapon.

People are crazy all over the world. Who would think its a good idea to give people guns, especially concealable handguns and automatic weapons. Its insane. Thats a significant reason why there are so many problems in your country imo with policing and racism
 
Newtwo said:
One last time! There is basically no such thing as Europe. Its not a country, there are no uniform laws or police training or even policies. Its a barely strung together financial union that shares almost nothing else. the majority of countries hate their neighbours and have been at war with them for 800 years.

Re guns and police. Its really simple. Almost no-one in 'Europe' own guns. And if they do, they're hunting rifles. Vast majority. Not concealable, not a great close combat weapon.

People are crazy all over the world. Who would think its a good idea to give people guns, especially concealable handguns and automatic weapons. Its insane. Thats a significant reason why there are so many problems in your country imo with policing and racism
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Right, 'cause Europe doesn't break out into fits of racist violence with the odd spell of genocide or ethnic cleansing every so often.

What's crazy is that you Europeans 😉 have been convinced by your governments that you need special permission to possess the means of self defense. Similar trick our Democratic party has played on our minorities and vulnerable groups. It's a fundamental human right, and it's puzzling that you Europeans 😉 are so smug about giving it up.
 
pgg said:
Right, 'cause Europe doesn't break out into fits of racist violence with the odd spell of genocide or ethnic cleansing every so often.

What's crazy is that you Europeans 😉 have been convinced by your governments that you need special permission to possess the means of self defense. Similar trick our Democratic party has played on our minorities and vulnerable groups. It's a fundamental human right, and it's puzzling that you Europeans 😉 are so smug about giving it up.
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lol sure
I dont really have any interest getting dragged down the rabbit hole here.

If you mean WW2 or Bosnia then i dont think that really what we're talking about. Especially since i dont think Bosnia was even part of Eu then, plus those were war time events initiated by lunatics. Are you at war now against an external power with lunatics in charge?

As for the rest of it, well you keep your guns. I definitely dont care!
 
Newtwo said:
One last time! There is basically no such thing as Europe. Its not a country, there are no uniform laws or police training or even policies. Its a barely strung together financial union that shares almost nothing else. the majority of countries hate their neighbours and have been at war with them for 800 years.

Re guns and police. Its really simple. Almost no-one in 'Europe' own guns. And if they do, they're hunting rifles. Vast majority. Not concealable, not a great close combat weapon.

People are crazy all over the world. Who would think its a good idea to give people guns, especially concealable handguns and automatic weapons. Its insane. Thats a significant reason why there are so many problems in your country imo with policing and racism
Click to expand...
Wow, chill. You can’t say to me “one last time” when I have never seen you say that to me before. I am from the African continent and I get it. We aren’t a country either and people refer to us as African all the time.

Yeah, I know it’s not a country. I am using it as a region because when it comes to this guns and this issue, you guys tend to be similar in your treatment compared to the US. That’s based on what I have read. Not saying I know everything about Europe cuz I don’t, but all the papers I am reading are grouping things up, so I am as well.

And yeah, I know you U.K. people love being called Europeans.🙂
 
Newtwo said:
lol sure
I dont really have any interest getting dragged down the rabbit hole here.

If you mean WW2 or Bosnia then i dont think that really what we're talking about. Especially since i dont think Bosnia was even part of Eu then, plus those were war time events initiated by lunatics. Are you at war now against an external power with lunatics in charge?

As for the rest of it, well you keep your guns. I definitely dont care!
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Yes, we are at war with a power with a Lunatic in charge. You may have heard of him?
He’s the color Orange, is stooped over and loves to refer to himself and brilliant, wonderful, best, and a whole other host of words narcissists keep in their vocabulary.
 
chocomorsel said:
Wow, chill. You can’t say to me “one last time” when I have never seen you say that to me before. I am from the African continent and I get it. We aren’t a country either and people refer to us as African all the time.

Yeah, I know it’s not a country. I am using it as a region because when it comes to this guns and this issue, you guys tend to be similar in your treatment compared to the US. That’s based on what I have read. Not saying I know everything about Europe cuz I don’t, but all the papers I am reading are grouping things up, so I am as well.

And yeah, I know you U.K. people love being called Europeans.🙂
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Yeah sorry about that. I didn't intend that tone! I just find 'europe' to be a strange belief that North Americans have. It's like Atlantis or something. It's kind of funny. I don't know anyone back home that thinks of Europe like that or themselves as European.
 
chocomorsel said:
Yes, we are at war with a power with a Lunatic in charge. You may have heard of him?
He’s the color Orange, is stooped over and loves to refer to himself and brilliant, wonderful, best, and a whole other host of words narcissists keep in their vocabulary.
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I mean I understand your sentiment but I don't think anyone can factually say the US is at war right now. Trump is a lot of bad things but he is a democratically elected president that has survived impeachment etc. It's not exactly a war.

And to compare the Bosnian genocide which actually was a war, (not your point granted) but nearly twice as many us citizens die by legally owned guns each year 15k in 2019 than the srebernica massacre 8k. Each year 2 of those massacres happen in the US equivalent. I think Europes not doing too too bad. Certainly has a lot to do too
 
Newtwo said:
One last time! There is basically no such thing as Europe. Its not a country, there are no uniform laws or police training or even policies. Its a barely strung together financial union that shares almost nothing else. the majority of countries hate their neighbours and have been at war with them for 800 years.

Re guns and police. Its really simple. Almost no-one in 'Europe' own guns. And if they do, they're hunting rifles. Vast majority. Not concealable, not a great close combat weapon.

People are crazy all over the world. Who would think its a good idea to give people guns, especially concealable handguns and automatic weapons. Its insane. Thats a significant reason why there are so many problems in your country imo with policing and racism
Click to expand...

I use Europe to refer to EU since i follow Brexit politics and other issues EU is facing (Italy, Spain etc.). I'm a pretty strong Eurosceptic though because i developed a frustration to smug EU journalists at media like FT arrogantly looking down at the US and commenting on US matters
 
Newtwo said:
I mean I understand your sentiment but I don't think anyone can factually say the US is at war right now. Trump is a lot of bad things but he is a democratically elected president that has survived impeachment etc. It's not exactly a war.

And to compare the Bosnian genocide which actually was a war, (not your point granted) but nearly twice as many us citizens die by legally owned guns each year 15k in 2019 than the srebernica massacre 8k. Each year 2 of those massacres happen in the US equivalent. I think Europes not doing too too bad. Certainly has a lot to do too
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Hey, look who said Europe! Yeah you guys do much better with gun deaths than we do.
 
Lawper said:
... because i developed a frustration to smug EU journalists at media like FT arrogantly looking down at the US and commenting on US matters
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Been getting The Economist for about 10 years. I think the Financial Times smugness spread to it to my dismay.

Which begs the question: which news source is the best for honest objective journalism these days?
 
Monty Python said:
Been getting The Economist for about 10 years. I think the Financial Times smugness spread to it to my dismay.

Which begs the question: which news source is the best for honest objective journalism these days?
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Wall Street Journal imo.
 
Monty Python said:
.

Which begs the question: which news source is the best for honest objective journalism these days?
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Most people are not actually interested in this. For people on both sides, they open an article and start nodding their heads if it sounds like they’re going to agree with it and click away if it appears like they’re not going to. Without really knowing much about the FT since I only occasionally read it, my guess would be that peoples’ perception of FT’s bias is more likely what’s changed in this increasingly polarized world, not the actual bias.

1592603761257.jpeg




Also, since the internet has been around long enough, anyone can put this to the test by just using the wayback machine. Wayback Machine
Have a look at a large sample of some of the headlines and opeds from any number of news sites now compared to like 12-15 years ago. My guess is they're not as different as you think.
 
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vector2 said:
Most people are not actually interested in this. For people on both sides, they open an article and start nodding their heads if it sounds like they’re going to agree with it and click away if it appears like they’re not going to. Without really knowing much about the FT since I only occasionally read it, my guess would be that peoples’ perception of FT’s bias is more likely what’s changed in this increasingly polarized world, not the actual bias.

View attachment 310478



Also, since the internet has been around long enough, anyone can put this to the test by just using the wayback machine. Wayback Machine
Have a look at a large sample of some of the headlines and opeds from any number of news sites now compared to like 12-15 years ago. My guess is they're not as different as you think.
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I knew it! The Weather Channel is a Liberal rag!
 
1592634646550.png

Mr. Barr’s attempt to remove Mr. Berman came two days after excerpts released from Mr. Bolton’s upcoming book described what Mr. Bolton said was Mr. Trump’s willingness to intervene in criminal investigations, including one in Mr. Berman’s office.

Mr. Bolton wrote in the book that Mr. Trump in 2018 had promised the Turkish president, Mr. Erdogan, that he would interfere in an ongoing investigation against a Turkish company accused of violating Iranian sanctions.

“Trump then told Erdogan he would take care of things, explaining that the Southern District prosecutors were not his people, but were Obama people, a problem that would be fixed when they were replaced by his people,” Mr. Bolton wrote, according to an excerpt published this week in The Washington Post.

At the time, Mr. Berman was the U.S. attorney overseeing the case. The company, Halkbank, a state-owned bank in Turkey, was indicted in the Southern District last year.
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www.nytimes.com

Clash Over U.S. Attorney Who Investigated Trump Associates Sets Off Crisis (Published 2020)

Attorney General William Barr tried to fire the U.S. attorney in Manhattan, Geoffrey Berman, but he is refusing to leave.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com





"Refusing to leave".......I wonder how exactly that's gonna work...
 
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Newtwo said:
Yeah sorry about that. I didn't intend that tone! I just find 'europe' to be a strange belief that North Americans have. It's like Atlantis or something. It's kind of funny. I don't know anyone back home that thinks of Europe like that or themselves as European.
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That's because you live on an island
 
Quick tangent;

I think Trump is going to do us all a huge service with his social Darwinism convention, err, Rally. It’s going to be contact traced up the wazoo and show the country that coronavirus is still here and in force. It’s also going to singlehandedly end any thoughts of trying to hold fan attended sporting events or concerts for the next 3-6 months.
 
Qualified immunity needs to be eliminated

Also prosecutors should stop working closely with cops in criminal cases

Abolish all police unions nationwide and impose large scale structural improvements in policing. That includes having a lot more rigorous hiring and training standards with a system more capable of reporting and firing bad cops.
 
On a stage today in a half-filled arena in Oklahoma, Trump literally admitted to ordering the ramping down of testing in the middle of a pandemic, bc the numbers were making him look bad. This is criminal. He essentially refused potentially life-saving medical care to millions of Americans and impeded public health policy. The lack of testing directly led to the inability to contain this, not to mention treat it. Every expert and competent country in the world understood how important testing is to saving lives and Trump actively obstructed it.
 
Ezekiel2517 said:
On a stage today in a half-filled arena in Oklahoma, Trump literally admitted to ordering the ramping down of testing in the middle of a pandemic, bc the numbers were making him look bad. This is criminal. He essentially refused potentially life-saving medical care to millions of Americans and impeded public health policy. The lack of testing directly led to the inability to contain this, not to mention treat it. Every expert and competent country in the world understood how important testing is to saving lives and Trump actively obstructed it.
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I heard the arena was full and the Sharpie people were immune to Covid-19.
72603279-9658-4D93-AFC3-01458D63E7FA.jpeg
 
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Ezekiel2517 said:
On a stage today in a half-filled arena in Oklahoma, Trump literally admitted to ordering the ramping down of testing in the middle of a pandemic, bc the numbers were making him look bad. This is criminal. He essentially refused potentially life-saving medical care to millions of Americans and impeded public health policy. The lack of testing directly led to the inability to contain this, not to mention treat it. Every expert and competent country in the world understood how important testing is to saving lives and Trump actively obstructed it.
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Wow. Seriously? If so, is this not considered criminal in some sort? As in his orders led to inaction leading to loss of life?
 
SaltyDog said:
I’m no Trump fan, but how exactly did lack of testing lead to loss of life?
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When people don't have access to testing and don't know they have covid then they're more likely to continue their usual habits....going to work, businesses, not separating from family, which leads to more spread. More people infected is why more people die.

I mean that's why we tell people to get infected for STIs, right? You're not going to treat something you don't know you have. Right now the "treatment" for mild cases of covid is to stay home so you don't infect more people.
 
SaltyDog said:
I’m no Trump fan, but how exactly did lack of testing lead to loss of life?
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The assumption is that early widespread testing of asymptomatic people could have led to more contagious people getting isolated, reducing the slope of the curve early in the pandemic. Of course, two significant assumptions chained to that assumption is that (1) an effective vaccine could be delivered to reduce the total number of people infected else we're mostly just shifting the deaths to the right, and (2) successful curve-flattening saved lives by reducing deaths attributable to overwhelmed healthcare systems.

I think they're reasonable assumptions but they're still assumptions.

I think the USA was hurt more by our national you're-not-the-boss-of-me and I-do-what-I-want mentality that resists obvious proven mitigation strategies like masks and social distancing, than we were by the lack of testing.
 
AMEHigh said:
When people don't have access to testing and don't know they have covid then they're more likely to continue their usual habits....going to work, businesses, not separating from family, which leads to more spread. More people infected is why more people die.

I mean that's why we tell people to get infected for STIs, right? You're not going to treat something you don't know you have. Right now the "treatment" for mild cases of covid is to stay home so you don't infect more people.
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We already had mandatory stay-home orders and social distancing measures in place for everyone - infected or not.

You get tested for STI’s so you can get treated for them. There are no effective treatments for COVID aside from supportive measures.

This thing was not containable. Even with outrageously robust testing measures like in China, you are still seeing fresh outbreaks.
 
pgg said:
I think the USA was hurt more by our national you're-not-the-boss-of-me and I-do-what-I-want mentality that resists obvious proven mitigation strategies like masks and social distancing, than we were by the lack of testing.
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I think that hits the nail on the head right there.
 
SaltyDog said:
We already had mandatory stay-home orders and social distancing measures in place for everyone - infected or not.

You get tested for STI’s so you can get treated for them. There are no effective treatments for COVID aside from supportive measures.

This thing was not containable. Even with outrageously robust testing measures like in China, you are still seeing fresh outbreaks.
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Hold up a second are you saying you agree with no testing?

And also are you saying your stay home measures and distancing were sufficient or even heeded by much of the population?
 
Newtwo said:
Hold up a second are you saying you agree with no testing?

And also are you saying your stay home measures and distancing were sufficient or even heeded by much of the population?
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I’m not saying either one of those things.

I’m saying I think it’s a stretch to say more lives would have been saved with more testing.
 
pgg said:
we're mostly just shifting the deaths to the right,
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I don't know if this is true. I think there's a widespread misconception that social distancing and other mitigating strategies only cause a right-shift, when in fact they're probably also reducing the total area under the curve if enough people are doing it to push down the R0 (After all, if the R0 becomes less < 1 the virus eventually totally dies out). If this weren't the case then all the revised models coming out wouldn't have lowered the total projected figures for people who will have died specifically from the disease.
 
SaltyDog said:
I’m no Trump fan, but how exactly did lack of testing lead to loss of life?
Click to expand...
Well, patients who are or mildly asymptomatic passing the disease on the other people unknowingly instead of isolating themselves and the other people end up ill and dying?
Or you don’t know you are infected and you think you have a cold and are the so-called happy hypoxic and go to sleep and die?
 
Newtwo said:
Hold up a second are you saying you agree with no testing?

And also are you saying your stay home measures and distancing were sufficient or even heeded by much of the population?
Click to expand...
I guess he’s forgetting about these people termed “essential workers” who had to go to work and possibly infected their coworkers.
 
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