The URM Advantage

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Disclaimer: I'm an upper-middle-class white male. Take from that what you will.

You show me evidence that proves all races are the same?

You seriously don't understand how this works, do you?

This would be the null hypothesis. No one has to "prove" "all races are the same", it's just merely a precept that we fail to reject until we're presented with evidence to the contrary. Considering within-race genetic variability tends to be greater than between-race variability, I don't really see a problem with this.

Consider, for a moment, what assumptions we would have to accept in order to assume there is a difference. Among them, we would have to be prepared to accept that a profound selective pressure to increase intelligence existed for one population, but not the other, and over an incredibly short period of time. That's a proposition I have a hard time buying.

My original post was we shouldn't assume all races are endowed will all the same natural talents and we shouldn't have policies which assumes if a race is underrepresented or over represented it means something is wrong. In other words, Asians should not be punished for kicking ass in academics.

That you were able to write this with a straight face implies you have no idea what you're talking about.

To begin with, again, if we have to decide between assuming "all races are endowed [with] all the same natural talents" or not, current evidence seems to indicate the former is the more reasonable default position. I'm sorry if you have a hard time with the concept, but hey, that's life.

Second, however, URM policies have f*$k-all to do with whether or not heritable differences in intelligence or ability exist in the first place. Rather, they're predicated on the notion that for a fairly hefty slice of American history, society was explicitly structured to limit opportunities for minorities, and that even today there are lasting reverberations therefrom, especially with regard to educational, social, and career opportunities.

That you have the audacity to start talking about how URM policies are "punishing" groups implies that you have no experience with the other side of the coin. Eerily reminiscent of the "poor, downtrodden white man" rhetoric. Don't look now, but your privilege is showing.

Don't mistake my position: I'm not arguing that current URM policies are the ideal, but let's not pretend that the societal inequalities that led to the creation of such policies didn't exist, or that they don't still exist in many respects, especially for certain minority populations.

Nor am I accusing you of being explicitly racist. I'm sure some of your best friends are black, or whatever.

Clearly blacks were discriminated against in the past

Of course, now that we've elected a black president, everything's all good, amirite?

Obviously I don't. I'm white

Quelle surprise!

and it would not surprise me in the slightest if Asians are on average a bit more intelligent than whites and whites are bit more athletic or something. I don't have a horse in this race. I just want consistent and fair policies and right now it seems like Asians are getting screwed hard. I know many Asians who have English as their second language and have busted their ass to get where they are but still are an ORM on applications. Asians who have English as their second language and did not grow up in a rich privileged environment have every right to be pissed they're being discriminated against.

Sigh, Not giving preference to a group is not quite the same thing as actively discriminating against them, now, is it?

I'm getting somewhat tired of how little thought you seem to have given this subject.

If you could prove most Koreans who haven't played video games have a faster reaction time than whites who haven't played video games, however, then I would guess they likely have a genetic advantage. Does it prove it? No. Does it tell us exactly where their "reaction time gene" is? No. But I'm not going to just assume all the races are equal in every way because it sounds politically correct and I like the idea of it. I'm also going to think it's ridiculous if I hear complaints like "we need more white people in competitive gaming" since it's possible white people just aren't talented in that area.

What is this I don't even

I'm aware of this, and if Asian Americans in time become the same height as Black Americans (something I highly doubt, but who knows) then I'll start thinking their may be less genetic differences in the races than I think now.

"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

 

[sirenomelia]

Bottom line:
If you dont make it into med school its your own damn vault.
If you're white or asian and dont make it then you werent good enough; it wasn't because a URM took your spot.
If you're black or hispanic and don't make it then you weren't good enough; it wasn't because whitey kept you down or you were too poor.

If you have an angle/ advantage then using it to benefit yourself is just smart. If you're URM and use that so be it. Alot of white kids have parent MD's and that gives them added consideration and so be it.

/thread

 

[Chrome19]

Bottom line:
If you dont make it into med school its your own damn vault.
If you're white or asian and dont make it then you werent good enough; it wasn't because a URM took your spot.
If you're black or hispanic and don't make it then you weren't good enough; it wasn't because whitey kept you down or you were too poor.

If you have an angle/ advantage then using it to benefit yourself is just smart. If you're URM and use that so be it. Alot of white kids have parent MD's and that gives them added consideration and so be it.

/thread

I think this post undermines the stochastics inherent in admissions. Many good-enough applicants have to reapply.

 

[Megatron2016]

relevant story...

http://www.wgbh.org/articles/index.cfm?tempid=5865

 

[TheFamilyDoc]

Didn't have time to fully read EVERYTHING but I would like to add my two cents. I go to an HBCU that is all black and all male. We have roughly 3,000 students total. The Huffington post names our school "One of the most Grueling Colleges" http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/..._n_574120.html#s90123&title=Morehouse_College my school may be extremely small but it produces a lot of doctors. In fact, in last year's senior class (around 300-400) two people were accepted to Harvard School Of Medicine (one was for their MD/PHD program) Tuition is about $45,000/year here. What I have observed here is that the people that perform THE best in our Biology program are people that are the children of doctors. They grew up with plenty of money obviously but their parents pushed them intellectually and academically from the beginning. Now they are doing absolutely amazing and going on to medical schools such as Harvard. I have a friend that stays in my hall who's dad is a doctor. His brother is currently a 4th year at Duke and now he's a freshman like me following in the footsteps of his dad and brother. For average folks here in the Biology premed program some of them are oppressed and have a voice in the back of their head telling them that they cannot do it and they end up not doing so well and dropping the program. My point is regardless of race I think that how you were brought up and your will power (regardless of how you were brought up) will be a big determining factor in pursuing areas such as medicine or law. I must leave now for PLTL for Biology. My PLTL leader is a sophomore Biology major who's mom is an Oncologist and dad is an Internist. He is the only sophomore qualified to teach the class becuase of his high academic achievements in the Biology program at my college. This is a prospective from a black male 'urm' that is currently going through the process. I would also like to add that I do have connections (in response to a reply I read earlier) there are plenty of opportunities available for urms. I will be doing 10 weeks of research this summer and a major university. Also I have shadowed a medical examiner who is also a pathology professor at a medical school just by emailing her. Just have to be proactive to get things out of life.

 

[DocJaz]

Bottom line:
If you dont make it into med school its your own damn vault.
If you're white or asian and dont make it then you werent good enough; it wasn't because a URM took your spot.
If you're black or hispanic and don't make it then you weren't good enough; it wasn't because whitey kept you down or you were too poor.

If you have an angle/ advantage then using it to benefit yourself is just smart. If you're URM and use that so be it. Alot of white kids have parent MD's and that gives them added consideration and so be it.

/thread

Well said! this is the bottom line! 👍

 

[Joe the Plumber]

Bottom line:
If you dont make it into med school its your own damn vault.
If you're white or asian and dont make it then you werent good enough; it wasn't because a URM took your spot.
If you're black or hispanic and don't make it then you weren't good enough; it wasn't because whitey kept you down or you were too poor.

If you have an angle/ advantage then using it to benefit yourself is just smart. If you're URM and use that so be it. Alot of white kids have parent MD's and that gives them added consideration and so be it.

/thread

Lol. Tell that to the Asians with a 3.75/29, 55% of whom don't get accepted. You can't just wish the problem away.

Didn't have time to fully read EVERYTHING but I would like to add my two cents. I go to an HBCU that is all black and all male. We have roughly 3,000 students total. The Huffington post names our school "One of the most Grueling Colleges" http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/..._n_574120.html#s90123&title=Morehouse_College my school may be extremely small but it produces a lot of doctors. In fact, in last year's senior class (around 300-400) two people were accepted to Harvard School Of Medicine (one was for their MD/PHD program) Tuition is about $45,000/year here. What I have observed here is that the people that perform THE best in our Biology program are people that are the children of doctors. They grew up with plenty of money obviously but their parents pushed them intellectually and academically from the beginning. Now they are doing absolutely amazing and going on to medical schools such as Harvard. I have a friend that stays in my hall who's dad is a doctor. His brother is currently a 4th year at Duke and now he's a freshman like me following in the footsteps of his dad and brother. For average folks here in the Biology premed program some of them are oppressed and have a voice in the back of their head telling them that they cannot do it and they end up not doing so well and dropping the program. My point is regardless of race I think that how you were brought up and your will power (regardless of how you were brought up) will be a big determining factor in pursuing areas such as medicine or law. I must leave now for PLTL for Biology. My PLTL leader is a sophomore Biology major who's mom is an Oncologist and dad is an Internist. He is the only sophomore qualified to teach the class becuase of his high academic achievements in the Biology program at my college. This is a prospective from a black male 'urm' that is currently going through the process. I would also like to add that I do have connections (in response to a reply I read earlier) there are plenty of opportunities available for urms. I will be doing 10 weeks of research this summer and a major university. Also I have shadowed a medical examiner who is also a pathology professor at a medical school just by emailing her. Just have to be proactive to get things out of life.

Thank you for being honest. I go to a large state university, and it is self-evident that our black students tend to avoid the sciences. I blame this on a lot of things, including our failing public schools (then again, I blame our failing public schools on a lot of things, including a lack of family involvement, poor work ethic, cultural problems, unsafe communities, bad teachers, antiquated drug laws, etc.).

Genetics: 0/100 students were black
Microbiology: 0/150
Organic chemistry: 2/150

etc.

Most seem to gravitate to race studies, psychology, etc. It's bad.

 

[DocJaz]

Lol. Tell that to the Asians with a 3.75/29, 55% of whom don't get accepted. You can't just wish the problem away.



Thank you for being honest. I go to a large state university, and it is self-evident that our black students tend to avoid the sciences. I blame this on a lot of things, including our failing public schools (then again, I blame our failing public schools on a lot of things, including a lack of family involvement, poor work ethic, cultural problems, unsafe communities, bad teachers, antiquated drug laws, etc.).

Genetics: 0/100 students were black
Microbiology: 0/150
Organic chemistry: 2/150

etc.

Most seem to gravitate to race studies, psychology, etc. It's bad.

In my school its the exact opposite and I go to a large "respectable" UC school. Most if not all the black students in my school are either in science,engineering or math. So you're generalizing there, besides being in the sciences does not rule one out of medicine, does not measure one's intelligence, matter of fact it mean nothing..it just indicates one's preference.

 

[Joe the Plumber]

In my school its the exact opposite and I go to a large "respectable" UC school. Most if not all the black students in my school are either in science,engineering or math. So you're generalizing there, besides being in the sciences does not rule one out of medicine, does not measure one's intelligence, matter of fact it mean nothing..it just indicates one's preference.

I don't know the numbers, but if I had to guess, I would say your school's situation is highly unusual. (And, if you're a freshman, it's possible you're in the classes that all science majors take, before many switch to communications). Or maybe my school is the exception, who knows. Recently, though, research at Duke found that while minorities tend to improve grade-wise during their college careers, it's often because they switch from the sciences and engineering to the soft sciences and humanities. Of course, just about every body of knowledge can be useful in medicine.

 

[mipp0]

And schools are free to tag them as URM if they wish, and don't say it doesn't happen because University of Utah does recognize Filipino Asians as URM students. And like I said, URM is not just socioeconomics. It's also about race, and if socioeconomics is your concern, check the "disadvantaged" box.

Did you not read anything I wrote? Did my points go right over your head? I ask, because you didn't even get the point of my post.

You live in a very simple world. I'm envious

You can't over-generalize/stereotype an entire race's lived experiences, socioeconomic circumstances, etc. The concept of race is problematic to begin with, but I won't go there. No one is arguing the URM in the admissions process vs. socioeconomics--we understand the intent, but the logic/process is problematic.

 

[ananursing]

I think pre drugs should be given an benefits according to their household earnings, not according to what competition they are. Most of the Africa People in america and Latinos in my encounter that get into university of medicine are those that come from middle/upper middle-class household members. These are the unprivileged that are mainly getting the benefits, not the low earnings Africa People in america and Latinos.

 

[TheFamilyDoc]

In my school its the exact opposite and I go to a large "respectable" UC school. Most if not all the black students in my school are either in science,engineering or math. So you're generalizing there, besides being in the sciences does not rule one out of medicine, does not measure one's intelligence, matter of fact it mean nothing..it just indicates one's preference.

😱...about three weeks ago I went on a grad school tour of UCSD UCI UCLA and USC. The black undergrads at each of the schools averaged between 1-3 percent. So yeah little to no of them were in the sciences. Also, it was absolutely rare to find an African American in Medical School. At UCLA School of Medicine the Dean and the Dean of admissions were both African American males but not one of their first year students were.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Did you not read anything I wrote? Did my points go right over your head? I ask, because you didn't even get the point of my post.

You live in a very simple world. I'm envious

You can't over-generalize/stereotype an entire race's lived experiences, socioeconomic circumstances, etc. The concept of race is problematic to begin with, but I won't go there. No one is arguing the URM in the admissions process vs. socioeconomics--we understand the intent, but the logic/process is problematic.

Sure, we can speak of details and such, but the truth is that, in general, what I say about black, latino, and native americans is absolutely the case. Policies are aimed to, more or less, fit the general principle rather than details. This is why in law we see things like 18 is the age to vote. Will there be some people at 18 that are too immature? Yes. Will some be mature enough? Mostly yes. We can say that of some people below or over the age of 18, yet we create policies based on general principles and not for every detail of every experience that exists. Ultimately, schools CAN say "well, this African-American applicant has parents that went to Princeton, he's rich, and his parents paid for tutors all his life, yet he only scored a 23 on the MCAT and thus we will reject him." People here act like checking the URM box means that they put a gun to the temple of every ADCOM to blindly admit minorities. Shocking for you guys, but even under-represented minority students receive rejection letters from colleges. Same thing for Asian applicants. My friend had an okay GPA (>3.0<3.5) but grew up extremely disadvantaged. He got into Dartmouth. It happens.

 

[mclinkin94]

The URM "advantage" is grossly overblown. "Everyone" thinks if you are URM all schools will open their arms to you. Frankly, I knew from some of my friends' experiences (blacks and Hispanics with 30+ MCAT scores) that it could be a challenge getting in as a URM/very late applicant, especially at the top schools.

Black doctors represent 3.5% of the entire physician population and they are produced primarily by schools like Howard, Meharry and Morehouse. If these schools didn't exist, the black physician proportion would be much much less than that. The proportion of black PhDs in the sciences is even worse.

There's a rumor that there's not even a black male in the MS1 and MS2 classes at Yale. A friend who interviewed there told me he didn't want to be the token black male so he went somewhere else.

I just laugh when people talk about the URM advantage. It's largely a myth.

Do you really think so?

 

[maybemed2013]

Well I do know there is not one black at FAU COM...I go to FAU undergraduate.

 

[skargylejohn]

Hey OP. Thanks for this post, it provided some perspective for me at a time when I was starting to get frustrated with the statistics.

"He is a wise man who does not grieve for the things which he has not, but rejoices for those which he has." - Epictetus

 

[Redpancreas]

Hey all,

I sympathize with a lot of those who are frustrated with all this URM stuff. I am in a non-binding B.S./D.O. program and our program director is always meeting with some URM kids (the one's I see playing ball till 10 at night while I'm studying). The next thing I know...they're in the program (I was actually WL in program initially)! How does that make me feel? Pretty frustrated. However on the flip side of things people need to realize that mainly African Americans and Latinos are more likely to be disadvantaged and that needs to be taken into account. Also, this is a flimsy argument but:

sums it up quite nicely. We do need a more diverse physician body and if this is how it needs to be done initially, then that's what needs to happen. If it angers you, it shouldn't. Just do what you have to do to be the best possible applicant and you will be fine. Also, I was pretty bitter about the URM stuff until I had dinner at my friend's house who just happens to be a URM. His family is at the same socio-economic status as my family is. His family seemed to hate the URM idea and blatantly mock it during the dinner. They even mentioned how my friend and his brother both put unspecified when applying to colleges. Therefore, I do not think there's a significant population of minorities that are just riding the system. I think that those who are disadvantaged seemed to appreciate the aid while those who don't need it feel just as bitter about it as a non-URM would.

 

[ShenanigansMD]

Hey all,

I sympathize with a lot of those who are frustrated with all this URM stuff. I am in a non-binding B.S./D.O. program and our program director is always meeting with some URM kids (the one's I see playing ball till 10 at night while I'm studying). The next thing I know...they're in the program (I was actually WL in progra...

Voldemort has been resurrected.

 

[AdrianVeidt]

(post above this one) ^^ wtf why does the minority guy look just like the rest of the white people

Also, you're pretty crazy for assuming that people who play sports don't study; they just study at different times than you. The 2nd smartest person I know goes to school on a fully paid volleyball scholarship. Don't be so judgmental because of a person's skin color and athletic abilities.

 

[MedPR]

.

 

[clothcut]

Such a contentious issue, but from a historical standpoint, so easy to see. You deprive a people from enterprising and education for nearly 500 years and build up your nation with their free labor. You go on to institutionalize the very systems that were intended to keep them subservient. An attempt is made to compensate the immense repercussions of this, and yet even the most liberal, privileged darlings cannot wrap their head around this. Perhaps I'm wrong, though... it's pretty ignorant on my part to assume that a historical legacy of slavery, lynchings, institutionalized racism, MODERN covert government programs (crack, COINTELPRO), subpar resources, and deragotory media depictions would do anything to the black psyche compared to the average white person in America with respect to life chances and academic achievement. It's good to see that so many professionals of the next generation will be so socially cognizant as the generation before us. Change is here!!!! =)

 

[MedPR]

Such a contentious issue, but from a historical standpoint, so easy to see. You deprive a people from enterprising and education for nearly 500 years and build up your nation with their free labor. You go on to institutionalize the very systems that were intended to keep them subservient. An attempt is made to compensate the immense repercussions of this, and yet even the most liberal, privileged darlings cannot wrap their head around this. Perhaps I'm wrong, though... it's pretty ignorant on my part to assume that a historical legacy of slavery, lynchings, institutionalized racism, MODERN covert government programs (crack, COINTELPRO), subpar resources, and deragotory media depictions would do anything to the black psyche compared to the average white person in America with respect to life chances and academic achievement. It's good to see that so many professionals of the next generation will be so socially cognizant as the generation before us. Change is here!!!! =)

I think the urm advantage exists to promote diversity... not as a repayment plan to minorities.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[clothcut]

I think the urm advantage exists to promote diversity... not as a repayment plan to minorities.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

You know what, I would have to agree. "Diversity" in the scope of higher-education is purely artificial. Diversity for who? Being a "minority" in an environment where practically everyone is white is not "diversity" from the scope of one who is essentially used to boost statistics. I won't deny the higher-ed game is rigged with respect to bringing in people of color... at my undergraduate institution, the vast majority of them were rich. To be a poor person of *any race* is an anomaly at these elite institutions, speaking from experience.

 

[Freesia88]

TBH, at this point, I want the SCOTUS to repeal AA, so that on the one hand all these people complaining can see that nobody is taking anything away from them and on the other hand the people who try to twist it to their advantage can understand why it was instituted in the first place...

 

[MedPR]

You know what, I would have to agree. "Diversity" in the scope of higher-education is purely artificial. Diversity for who? Being a "minority" in an environment where practically everyone is white is not "diversity" from the scope of one who is essentially used to boost statistics. I won't deny the higher-ed game is rigged with respect to bringing in people of color... at my undergraduate institution, the vast majority of them were rich. To be a poor person of *any race* is an anomaly at these elite institutions, speaking from experience.

An ideally-diverse group would have no majority/minority. Hence why we are constantly promoting increased diversity..

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[Arbor Vitae]

 

[Silo004]

TBH, at this point, I want the SCOTUS to repeal AA, so that on the one hand all these people complaining can see that nobody is taking anything away from them

👍

 

[Redpancreas]

I find it interesting that you asked why the URM looks like rest of the white people and then criticize me for my generalizations about skin color and basketball (which is valid and I'm sorry). I am wondering if you did that contradiction just to parody the contradiction I made when I first said I'm frustrated and then said talked in general support for the URM support. As for ShenanigansMD, I think you're a pretty funny guy and I get your jokes but I'm wondering what you mean by Voldemort being resurrected. Are you trying to reference Voldemort's smooth tongue when he's trying to convince Harry that what he's doing is right and imply that my quoted portion is reminiscent of that? Are you perhaps just trying to imply that I am as malicious as Voldemort? Or is there something else? Anyways, just wanted to apologize there. I was just frustrated when I learned that 6 students from the Minority Students in Medicine club got automatically inducted into a program as seniors when I applied as a high school senior and had to go through a whole process to get into. Then I realized that I'm not doing as well as I'd hoped to be doing this stage in the game and just like Freesia88 said, maybe I'm just using this as an excuse for my lackluster performance. Also, the program is D.O. so I guess one them of who has a 3.1 GPA is applicable and maybe I'm just thinking to highly of my program. Maybe his affinity to athletics (don't get me wrong I lift and run distance -awkward combination there so I'm not like anti-athletics) will help him think differently or relate to different kinds of patients.

Anyways, my general thoughts of how I think this should work (I know there are a lot of posts above this that probably say what I'm going to say but maybe I'll say it in a different way):

So compensatory factors should be solely based on socioeconomic conditions. I am aware of the sociological perspective that race and socioeconomic status are tied together and I am in favor of giving a "latino" or "african american" student a slight edge in admission if they were at an economic disadvantage. However, I do not think that there is a strict: race---> socioeconomic standing causation. Therefore, I do not think race should be the determining factor. Some may argue that minorities still have a cultural component to them which they gain from interacting with each other. I agree this exists. However, isn't the whole point of diversity to get people all interspersed so that cultural clumps can be disbanded and released into the general population? Another argument prominent in the literature is the fact that minorities or a certain ethnic group will likely become professionalized and serve their own minority ethnic group (there's a term for this that's slipping my mind). I acknowledge that this is probably true and it makes sense. For example, if I ever achieve success, I'd probably want to go back and contribute to those who were just like me with the hope that they can fulfill their potentials. The thing is, who's to say those people are only those that share the same ethnicity as myself? Lastly, I feel there are more types of diversity than just ethnic diversity. For example, for myself, I generally consider my thought process to be a little than most others. I tend to see science in metaphors rather than from a theoretical framework. As a result, I notice I am slower at learning things but quicker at teaching things using analogies. Maybe because of this I can think about a plausible biochemical mechanism no one has thought of (hardly likely) or I can relate to specific type of person in the clinic (what I hope I can do one day) that many others fail to relate to. I feel like that's a kind of diversity on it's own that is often overlooked because it is not quantified as easily as looking at someone's ethnicity. Now that's just my example and I'm not implying that my method of thinking is a rarity because it's probably not. Many people may feel they are the same way but have never thought to say they were. I'm just saying that maybe there be some kind of emphasis on looking at the diversity of the applicants mind. Maybe ask them some open-ended questions during the interview process??? Idk... Anyways, I understand that my earlier points about interspersing culture may be controversial to some sociologists/anthropologists out there who believe that in order for culture to be preserved, some level of cultural clumping conserved. I generally disagree with that kind of thought process but I will acknowledge that as a potential weakness of my argument here. This is not an exhaustive list but I think it's a good summary of my $0.02 on the issue at hand. By getting this out of my system though, I hope I'll have this overrepresented minority superiority complex flushed out and hopefully can get back to just worrying about myself.

By they way, there are a lot of tigers ready to pounce on SDN. Generally, I am very reserved with my posts for fear of criticism and am pretty sensitive but I feel as long as I am respecting everyone and getting my viewpoint across things should be fine.

 

[La Presse]

I find it interesting that you asked why the URM looks like rest of the white people and then criticize me for my generalizations about skin color and basketball (which is valid and I'm sorry). I am wondering if you did that contradiction just to parody the contradiction I made when I first said I'm frustrated and then said talked in general support for the URM support. As for ShenanigansMD, I think you're a pretty funny guy and I get your jokes but I'm wondering what you mean by Voldemort being resurrected. Are you trying to reference Voldemort's smooth tongue when he's trying to convince Harry that what he's doing is right and imply that my quoted portion is reminiscent of that? Are you perhaps just trying to imply that I am as malicious as Voldemort? Or is there something else? Anyways, just wanted to apologize there. I was just frustrated when I learned that 6 students from the Minority Students in Medicine club got automatically inducted into a program as seniors when I applied as a high school senior and had to go through a whole process to get into. Then I realized that I'm not doing as well as I'd hoped to be doing this stage in the game and just like Freesia88 said, maybe I'm just using this as an excuse for my lackluster performance. Also, the program is D.O. so I guess one them of who has a 3.1 GPA is applicable and maybe I'm just thinking to highly of my program. Maybe his affinity to athletics (don't get me wrong I lift and run distance -awkward combination there so I'm not like anti-athletics) will help him think differently or relate to different kinds of patients.

Anyways, my general thoughts of how I think this should work (I know there are a lot of posts above this that probably say what I'm going to say but maybe I'll say it in a different way):

So compensatory factors should be solely based on socioeconomic conditions. I am aware of the sociological perspective that race and socioeconomic status are tied together and I am in favor of giving a "latino" or "african american" student a slight edge in admission if they were at an economic disadvantage. However, I do not think that there is a strict: race---> socioeconomic standing causation. Therefore, I do not think race should be the determining factor. Some may argue that minorities still have a cultural component to them which they gain from interacting with each other. I agree this exists. However, isn't the whole point of diversity to get people all interspersed so that cultural clumps can be disbanded and released into the general population? Another argument prominent in the literature is the fact that minorities or a certain ethnic group will likely become professionalized and serve their own minority ethnic group (there's a term for this that's slipping my mind). I acknowledge that this is probably true and it makes sense. For example, if I ever achieve success, I'd probably want to go back and contribute to those who were just like me with the hope that they can fulfill their potentials. The thing is, who's to say those people are only those that share the same ethnicity as myself? Lastly, I feel there are more types of diversity than just ethnic diversity. For example, for myself, I generally consider my thought process to be a little than most others. I tend to see science in metaphors rather than from a theoretical framework. As a result, I notice I am slower at learning things but quicker at teaching things using analogies. Maybe because of this I can think about a plausible biochemical mechanism no one has thought of (hardly likely) or I can relate to specific type of person in the clinic (what I hope I can do one day) that many others fail to relate to. I feel like that's a kind of diversity on it's own that is often overlooked because it is not quantified as easily as looking at someone's ethnicity. Now that's just my example and I'm not implying that my method of thinking is a rarity because it's probably not. Many people may feel they are the same way but have never thought to say they were. I'm just saying that maybe there be some kind of emphasis on looking at the diversity of the applicants mind. Maybe ask them some open-ended questions during the interview process??? Idk... Anyways, I understand that my earlier points about interspersing culture may be controversial to some sociologists/anthropologists out there who believe that in order for culture to be preserved, some level of cultural clumping conserved. I generally disagree with that kind of thought process but I will acknowledge that as a potential weakness of my argument here. This is not an exhaustive list but I think it's a good summary of my $0.02 on the issue at hand. By getting this out of my system though, I hope I'll have this overrepresented minority superiority complex flushed out and hopefully can get back to just worrying about myself.

By they way, there are a lot of tigers ready to pounce on SDN. Generally, I am very reserved with my posts for fear of criticism and am pretty sensitive but I feel as long as I am respecting everyone and getting my viewpoint across things should be fine.

I don't give a rat's ass about what people think about URMs. They are buttfrustrated little skids who constantly make threads like these to "compensate" for their insecurities or to try to establish and claim superiority. The AAMC has already established a definition, which will be abided, pending an addendum to the policy or otherwise. I understand people who are all for 'that life' and love arguing key points, but when you start making personal attacks and feeding your respective egos, it is very disappointing.



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[Redpancreas]

I don't give a rat's ass about what people think about URMs. They are buttfrustrated little skids who constantly make threads like these to "compensate" for their insecurities or to try to establish and claim superiority. The AAMC has already established a definition, which will be abided, pending an addendum to the policy or otherwise. I understand people who are all for 'that life' and love arguing key points, but when you start making personal attacks and feeding your respective egos, it is very disappointing.



Sent from my iPad using SDN Mobile app.

I'm interpreting this as an attack on my statement since you quoted it so correct me if I'm wrong. All I meant to do was provide an individual's perspective on thing's and thus transition to debate the key points as you say. In fact I think that makes the post even stronger because others who had bitter feelings may be able to relate and realize how I changed my perspective (in a relatively short amount of time admittedly). I think it is very important for a decent amount of future physicians to participate in such discussions and that is shouldn't merely be chalked up as those who are "all for that life". Discussion forums have the potential to be very useful to get others to think differently and for the spurt of ideas. Maybe I was complaining a bit initially but I apologized (if such as an apology is even acknowledged by "some" of these posters on SDN). Based on your sharp attack of MY POST in particular which claims that I'm feeding my own ego, I don't think you actually read my post. If you didn't just do the tl;dr next time because if you actually read my post you'll realize I'm trying to do the opposite of what you say. Anyways, jeez...lesson learnt. Maybe I'll stick to Blogspot, Quora, etc for policy debates.

 

[La Presse]

I'm interpreting this as an attack on my statement since you quoted it so correct me if I'm wrong. All I meant to do was provide an individual's perspective on thing's and thus transition to debate the key points as you say. In fact I think that makes the post even stronger because others who had bitter feelings may be able to relate and realize how I changed my perspective (in a relatively short amount of time admittedly). I think it is very important for a decent amount of future physicians to participate in such discussions and that is shouldn't merely be chalked up as those who are "all for that life". Discussion forums have the potential to be very useful to get others to think differently and for the spurt of ideas. Maybe I was complaining a bit initially but I apologized (if such as an apology is even acknowledged by "some" of these posters on SDN). Based on your sharp attack of MY POST in particular which claims that I'm feeding my own ego, I don't think you actually read my post. If you didn't just do the tl;dr next time because if you actually read my post you'll realize I'm trying to do the opposite of what you say. Anyways, jeez...lesson learnt. Maybe I'll stick to Blogspot, Quora, etc for policy debates.

I know how to read an argument, but your post was quoted for emphasis not because I was attacking you. You are on of the exceptions.


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[typicalindian]

I love how a URM thread can be posted once every couple of weeks and it always rustles the same amount of jimmies.

 

[couldabeenadoc]

TBH, at this point, I want the SCOTUS to repeal AA, so that on the one hand all these people complaining can see that nobody is taking anything away from them and on the other hand the people who try to twist it to their advantage can understand why it was instituted in the first place...

👍

The Supreme Court is set to hear oral arguments on October 10th that has the potential to end all types of racial preferences in the college admissions process; Fisher v. University of Texas. I expect that there will be debates/demonstrations on college campuses across the country in the coming weeks. It will be interesting to see if the old resentments this divisive topic usually generates, could play a part in the upcoming Presidential election.

 

[lobo.solo]

TBH, at this point, I want the SCOTUS to repeal AA, so that on the one hand all these people complaining can see that nobody is taking anything away from them and on the other hand the people who try to twist it to their advantage can understand why it was instituted in the first place...

I disagree

 

[wjs010]

I don't think urm is fair.race shouldn't even be revealed at all during the app process. You wouldn't see this in other countries where racism isn't tolerated. Urm shouldn't get any type of advantage. It should all be equal.

 

[Freesia88]

I disagree

The SCOTUS cannot dictate to a school what the school's mission is and what applicants are suited to fulfill that mission.

I'd like to see someone argue that a school with a mission to produce doctors for underserved areas should chose them with their 4.0/40T and no interest in that kind of medicine, over someone with a 3.4/29Q with a demonstrated interest in serving their community.

Grades and test scores are, after all, everything right?

In a school of ~1000, ~500 = White, ~300 = Asian and the other races get whats left...and URM's are still taking their spots? The mind boggles...

And if lack of access to programs like this is what it is going to take to make some people sit up and notice that life is not handed to you on a platter, then I am all for it.

There is no easy solution.

BTW We are on the same side Lobo... I'm just venting my frustration.

 

[jcaptian]

First of all I'm Caucasian just in case someone is wondering. Second of all half the people commenting in here are making dumb comments. URM is all about producing Physicians that can represent certain races and interact with them. When I'm volunteering at the hospital many African American patients want to be treated by African American physicians, they feel more comfortable and some absolutely refuse to see anyone else. AAMC and medical schools are fully aware of the fact that they need to produce physicians from every race not just dominantly whites and asians.

For the ones saying that economical status is better than a race let me remind you something:-

The U.S population has approximately 196,817,552 Caucasians (Non-Hispanic decent) and out of them 9.9 % are in poverty of "ecominically disadvantaged". That means approximately 20 million whites are economically disadvantaged.

The U.S population has approximately 37,685,848 African Americans (Non-Hispanic decent) and out of them 27.4 % are impoverished. That means approximately 10 million African Americans are economically disadvantaged.

Now can you tell me how medical schools will increase "diversity" in an already over represented profession when they will be relying on "economically disadvantaged" individuals when the numbers of one race simply overwhelm the other?

Guys please read why AAMC and medical schools are utilizing "URM" status. Some of the people here just talk but refuse to understand the problem that patients want to and feel more comfortable with individuals of the same race. Sure call the patients racist whatever but in the end of the day the ratio of Cauciasian Physician to Caucasian patients is much greater compared to the ratio of African american physicians to African American patients. The belief of some that it should be based on econimical status acheives NO diversity in the healthcare profession. Oh by the way let's not forget that African Americans faced slavery for over a CENTURY not a month, not a year, not a decade BUT A CENTURY. How could we possibly be complaining about why African Americans get a very minute advantage through URM status? please try being a slave for a year tell me how it feels, surely it will impact you, your family and many generations to come. Why the hell else would we have such huge economical and health disparities in the great land of the "free".

Agreed. The issue is about correcting this disparity and it always has been. Once we see a normal distribution of physicians, the URM will gradually be removed. At this point, its all about repairing the damage that has been done by decades of discrimination. Is it fair? Probably not as fair as considering economic disadvantages...however this is the quickest way of rectifying the problem. We are not talking about totally totally dumb Hispanics or Blacks that make it into medical school here. Yes some might not have a 35 MCAT or 4.0 GPA, but they are intelligent, have the desire, and graduate to become accomplished physicians.

 

[AdrianVeidt]

I don't think urm is fair.race shouldn't even be revealed at all during the app process. You wouldn't see this in other countries where racism isn't tolerated. Urm shouldn't get any type of advantage. It should all be equal.

Should be yeah, but it's not. Blacks, Native Americans and Hispanic do not get equal education as compared to Whites, Asians and Indians. URM helps to level the playing field to create better medicine (trust me, most black people really don't trust white doctors) but come on, honestly there are very few blacks, native americans and hispanics applying to medical school compared to whites, asians and indians. Minorities aren't taking anyone's spot.

 

[La Presse]

Should be yeah, but it's not. Blacks, Native Americans and Hispanic do not get equal education as compared to Whites, Asians and Indians. URM helps to level the playing field to create better medicine (trust me, most black people really don't trust white doctors) but come on, honestly there are very few blacks, native americans and hispanics applying to medical school compared to whites, asians and indians. Minorities aren't taking anyone's spot.

Concise and accurate.


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[elbowss]

People in poor white neighborhoods don't get the same education as rich white kids either. And in order to check that little disadvantaged box you have to ridiculously broke, not just go to a bad public school in a relatively poor town. If URM status was just trying to level the playing field for people who go to bad schools they would be looking at what school the individual went to for high school, rather than just assuming "Dark skin? He must have went to a bad school.. let him in." Somewhere in your brain you probably already realize this, but most of the blacks and hispanics that are getting into medical school aren't getting there out of the ghetto. I think all the white people who use this argument must think we're ducking drive-bys on the way to high school or something.

I don't know a single successful black pre-med who wasn't middle-class or higher. Do you?

 

[wjs010]

Should be yeah, but it's not. Blacks, Native Americans and Hispanic do not get equal education as compared to Whites, Asians and Indians. URM helps to level the playing field to create better medicine (trust me, most black people really don't trust white doctors) but come on, honestly there are very few blacks, native americans and hispanics applying to medical school compared to whites, asians and indians. Minorities aren't taking anyone's spot.

it sounds good and fair on paper...but it's the principle that counts. The fact that we have to include our race on any job or application form is pathetic...it really says something about our country. Racism has always been so inveterate in the U.S. that we are trying EXTREMELY hard to overcompensate...In principle, everyone should have an equal opportunity. It's up to the individual to get in...not the color of his or her skin. That should only be found out at the interview.

 

[elbowss]

it sounds good and fair on paper...but it's the principle that counts. The fact that we have to include our race on any job or application form is pathetic...it really says something about our country. Racism has always been so inveterate in the U.S. that we are trying EXTREMELY hard to overcompensate...In principle, everyone should have an equal opportunity. It's up to the individual to get in...not the color of his or her skin. That should only be found out at the interview.

Yours also sounds better on paper than it does in practice. The fact is people like being treated by people of their own race. There's natural preference for individuals of your same race that has been shown in studies to begin in infancy. If black people can't keep up with the grades of whites and asians, they should have no doctors? End of story? I'd disagree with that. A lot of black people would be more comfortable getting treatment from a decent black doctor than a great white doctor. Supply and demand or something, lol.

Besides, as soon as you end the URM practices so white people can have their spots back, Asians are going to take all the spots lost to black and hispanic people anyway, and more.

 

[wjs010]

Yours also sounds better on paper than it does in practice. The fact is people like being treated by people of their own race. There's natural preference for individuals of your same race that has been shown in studies to begin in infancy. If black people can't keep up with the grades of whites and asians, they should have no doctors? End of story? I'd disagree with that. A lot of black people would be more comfortable getting treatment from a decent black doctor than a great white doctor. Supply and demand or something, lol.

Besides, as soon as you end the URM practices so white people can have their spots back, Asians are going to take all the spots lost to black and hispanic people anyway, and more.

your post supports my previous post where I said the only reason this exists is because, in the USA, racism has always been ingrained( which is pathetic). Comfortable because the doctor is the same race? Id say that's a bit of the problem too. In a sense, all of what you just said is treating symptoms, when the main problem is the underlying racism. By even exposing the races in med school applications, it just brings up the idea that we are different, when we aren't. Its, again, pathetic. BTW, and this may sound harsh...supply and demand for med school doesn't mean picking exact ratios of race and skin color...that wouldn't be fair....the most qualified individuals ( when race is completely unknown to the adcom) should win out and gain acceptance. Yes, it is naturally harder for some people starting out, but everyone has a fair shot.

 

[lobo.solo]

The SCOTUS cannot dictate to a school what the school's mission is and what applicants are suited to fulfill that mission.

I'd like to see someone argue that a school with a mission to produce doctors for underserved areas should chose them with their 4.0/40T and no interest in that kind of medicine, over someone with a 3.4/29Q with a demonstrated interest in serving their community.

Grades and test scores are, after all, everything right?

In a school of ~1000, ~500 = White, ~300 = Asian and the other races get whats left...and they are still taking your spots? The mind boggles...

And if lack of access to programs like this is what it is going to take to make some people sit up and notice that life is not handed to you on a platter, then I am all for it.
There is no easy solution.

Sure, but if the SCOTUS repeals AA, it would give the message that AA was wrong in the first place, which is not I think. Like Adrian said; is about level out the playing field.

The lack of access to those "programs" isn't likely gonna help the cause for diversity in schools or encourage more minorities to take on the challenge to step up their game.
We are a product of our environment; we are unique because each of us experience a different environment which continues to define how we interact in the world. Minorities [in general] pursuit higher education at lower rates than other ethnicities/races because different factors have been embedded in their culture. Repealing AA will just make it more difficult for those who have the drive to pursuit higher education, but who might have lower stats because of socioeconomic status, lack of role models, internalized racism, etc (just to mention a few reasons).

It bothers me that many times successful people acquired this individualist mentality of "If I can do it, they can do it also," or "pull yourself by your bootstraps." What this people fail to realize is that their approach to life is different than anyone else; people deals with adversities in different ways, we are a product of our environment, which is unique to each of us.

 

[487806]

Well, an intense battle on a controversial topic has erupted.

 

[wjs010]

Sure, but if the SCOTUS repeals AA, it would give the message that AA was wrong in the first place, which is not I think. Like Adrian said; is about level out the playing field.

The lack of access to those "programs" isn't likely gonna help the cause for diversity in schools or encourage more minorities to take on the challenge to step up their game.
We are a product of our environment; we are unique because each of us experience a different environment which continues to define how we interact in the world. Minorities [in general] pursuit higher education at lower rates than other ethnicities/races because different factors have been embedded in their culture. Repealing AA will just make it more difficult for those who have the drive to pursuit higher education, but who might have lower stats because of socioeconomic status, lack of role models, internalized racism, etc (just to mention a few reasons).

It bothers me that many times successful people acquired this individualist mentality of "If I can do it, they can do it also," or "pull yourself by your bootstraps." What this people fail to realize is that their approach to life is different than anyone else; people deals with adversities in different ways, we are a product of our environment, which is unique to each of us.

If i was a URM and used internalizing racism as an excuse for my shortcomings, I would expect zero tolerance from adcoms. you said it yourself , brah. We are a product of our environment. To change your mind about how you think, maybe you should look up Dr. Ben Carson and read his story...I think you'll get the point.

 

[Lollygag]

Sure, but if the SCOTUS repeals AA, it would give the message that AA was wrong in the first place, which is not I think. Like Adrian said; is about level out the playing field.

The lack of access to those "programs" isn't likely gonna help the cause for diversity in schools or encourage more minorities to take on the challenge to step up their game.
We are a product of our environment; we are unique because each of us experience a different environment which continues to define how we interact in the world. Minorities [in general] pursuit higher education at lower rates than other ethnicities/races because different factors have been embedded in their culture. Repealing AA will just make it more difficult for those who have the drive to pursuit higher education, but who might have lower stats because of socioeconomic status, lack of role models, internalized racism, etc (just to mention a few reasons).

It bothers me that many times successful people acquired this individualist mentality of "If I can do it, they can do it also," or "pull yourself by your bootstraps." What this people fail to realize is that their approach to life is different than anyone else; people deals with adversities in different ways, we are a product of our environment, which is unique to each of us.

I agree with this.

But hold up a moment, I don't mean to change subject but isn't the SCOTUS dealing with AA with UT? How do we know that SCOTUS will ban AA depending on the outcome of the case? Even if AA is banned schools are still going to favor applicants from different nationalities. Especially top schools who are really big on diversity. Harvard is known for having the most ethnically diverse classes as well as many other top schools.

Is the outcome of this case being overestimated? Because what I keep being told about this is that if SCOTUS decided to repeal AA there just won't be formal documents and quotas for filling a class with minorities it will be more like an "unwritten" rule so the will still be favored it just wouldn't be advertised. I don't think you can *really* get rid of AA that easily, repealing this would be something that would take time there is an ample amount of people who are still supporters of it regardless of what SCOTUS will say.

And isn't UT a college? Do we even know if this will apply to medical schools? Especially private schools/high tiers.. you can only tell them what to do to a certain extent if they want to continue to maintain an ethnically diverse class they will find a loop hole.

Can anyone else share their thoughts on this? I've been wondering about it.

 

[tn4596]

Yours also sounds better on paper than it does in practice. The fact is people like being treated by people of their own race. There's natural preference for individuals of your same race that has been shown in studies to begin in infancy. If black people can't keep up with the grades of whites and asians, they should have no doctors? End of story? I'd disagree with that. A lot of black people would be more comfortable getting treatment from a decent black doctor than a great white doctor. Supply and demand or something, lol.

Besides, as soon as you end the URM practices so white people can have their spots back, Asians are going to take all the spots lost to black and hispanic people anyway, and more.

Also, the mistrusts of white doctors is way overblown in this thread. I have never encountered this. Actually, I have seen white doctor preferred over other. The mistrust of black doctors by other races, which this policy is the feeding fuel, are far more relevant in my experiences. Also, when i think about it, The arguments that patients wanna be treated by a doctor of their own races is moot. Are you just going to treat people of your race when you become a doctor? If you hope to convey in your application that you are 100% going to be a primary care doc and say yes to my question, all power to you, I hope you get in with urm advantage. This should be the only exception, negating the point that you might change your intention of becoming a pcp completely in the future during medical school.
And 😀 at last paragraph. They taking everything!

 

[elbowss]

your post supports my previous post where I said the only reason this exists is because, in the USA, racism has always been ingrained( which is pathetic). Comfortable because the doctor is the same race? Id say that's a bit of the problem too. In a sense, all of what you just said is treating symptoms, when the main problem is the underlying racism. By even exposing the races in med school applications, it just brings up the idea that we are different, when we aren't. Its, again, pathetic. BTW, and this may sound harsh...supply and demand for med school doesn't mean picking exact ratios of race and skin color...that wouldn't be fair....the most qualified individuals ( when race is completely unknown to the adcom) should win out and gain acceptance. Yes, it is naturally harder for some people starting out, but everyone has a fair shot.

We are treating symptoms, but given the fact that racial preference is found in infants, we can say that racial preference is a symptom of being human. There's no way to cure that disease until we're comfortable with altering the human genome. I wish there was a way to consider only the individual and let "society" work itself out, but that doesn't happen. Throughout history, society when left unchecked, tends towards oppression. Wealthy ruling classes, racial preference, caste systems that last for hundreds of generations, etc.

It sucks for some high achieving individuals that we put these checks in place. There's no doubt about it. The goal is to have a society that encourages happy, healthy people. If that means a couple potentially good asian doctors don't get into medical school so that a potentially decent white doctor can, I think we have to accept that. Paying taxes sucks for the individual, too. We do it so we can have a more smoothly operating society.

"Although Asian-Americans represent less than 5 percent of the US population (and slightly more than 5 percent in Massachusetts), they make up as much as 20 percent of students at many highly selective private research universities – the kind of schools that make it into top 50 national rankings. But, critics charge, Asian-American students would constitute an even larger share if many weren’t being filtered out during the admissions process. Since the University of California system moved to a race-blind system 14 years ago, the percentage of Asian-American students in some competitive schools there has reached 40, even 50 percent."

 

[wjs010]

We are treating symptoms, but given the fact that racial preference is found in infants, we can say that racial preference is a symptom of being human. There's no way to cure that disease until we're comfortable with altering the human genome. I wish there was a way to consider only the individual and let "society" work itself out, but that doesn't happen. Throughout history, society when left unchecked, tends towards oppression. Wealthy ruling classes, racial preference, caste systems that last for hundreds of generations, etc.

It sucks for some high achieving individuals that we put these checks in place. There's no doubt about it. The goal is to have a society that encourages happy, healthy people. If that means a couple potentially good asian doctors don't get into medical school so that a potentially decent white doctor can, I think we have to accept that. Paying taxes sucks for the individual, too. We do it so we can have a more smoothly operating society.

"Although Asian-Americans represent less than 5 percent of the US population (and slightly more than 5 percent in Massachusetts), they make up as much as 20 percent of students at many highly selective private research universities – the kind of schools that make it into top 50 national rankings. But, critics charge, Asian-American students would constitute an even larger share if many weren’t being filtered out during the admissions process. Since the University of California system moved to a race-blind system 14 years ago, the percentage of Asian-American students in some competitive schools there has reached 40, even 50 percent."

proving that it is unfair to weed out an individual based on race, just as much as it is to shoe in an individual based on race. good for them to do a race-blind system. But yea you're right..its human. I still think it's mainly an American thing. I've spent several months in Brazil and nobody ever even thinks about race differences..