Things you can do/Things you can't do

[turkish]

I think it would be great if people would tell about things they know of that are allowed by the rules, maybe things that most people wonder about but are pretty unsure of. References would be good, but not required if the poster can give an idea of where the guideline might be found.

Here's one to start, if anybody's got time:
Exactly what are the rules about traveling while not on "leave"? Can you go up to 200 miles from your base without a pass, or is that just a rumor? Do you need your car inspected to do so, or is that just for when you apply for a pass?



Secondly, do red flags go up if you don't use your leave time? Say I just want to hang out around here during Christmas when my clinic will be closed...what's the requirement of doing so? Do I lose my 30 days of leave (of which I can only use 10 this year) if I don't use them in one fiscal year?


Any help is much appreciated. Let this be a take one/leave one thread, so if you find it helpful, leave a new question or respond to someone elses posts that you might know the answer to.

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[IgD]

I remember taking call on Christmas as an intern. It was great because everything was slow. My wife brought in fine china and a gourmet dinner. We ate in the galley alone with candles.

Around January or so during internship, my wife and I went on a week long caribbean cruise. It was a wonderful vacation. I encourage you to do the same!

 

[Galo]

I think it would be great if people would tell about things they know of that are allowed by the rules, maybe things that most people wonder about but are pretty unsure of. References would be good, but not required if the poster can give an idea of where the guideline might be found.

Here's one to start, if anybody's got time:
Exactly what are the rules about traveling while not on "leave"? Can you go up to 200 miles from your base without a pass, or is that just a rumor? Do you need your car inspected to do so, or is that just for when you apply for a pass?



Secondly, do red flags go up if you don't use your leave time? Say I just want to hang out around here during Christmas when my clinic will be closed...what's the requirement of doing so? Do I lose my 30 days of leave (of which I can only use 10 this year) if I don't use them in one fiscal year?


Any help is much appreciated. Let this be a take one/leave one thread, so if you find it helpful, leave a new question or respond to someone elses posts that you might know the answer to.

Far be it for me "the military expert" to give you advice, but here it goes:

The travel thing, may depend on your base and mostly on your commander. If you are not on call, or are not subject to recall, you can probably go anywhere you can get back from in a day, but I would certainly check with your commander, or the orderly room, not sure if that's what its called anymore.

You can accumulate up to 60 days of leave, but unlikely to take it all at once. I think after 60 you start to loose, but you can sell them back or give them away to other people.

I'm sure that there are people on the forum who can tell you dead on what the specifics are.

 

[turkish]

You can sell them back? So at the end of intern year when I have 20 unused days, I can get an extra check to defray moving expenses?

 

[DaveB]

I make no claims to be an "expert" either - but here is what I've learned about the traveling thing:

At all commands I've had to deal with in the Navy (its only been a few so far) there is a 350 mile boundary limit. You can go wherever you want within that limit. From whats been explained to me you can get charged leave if you go outside that boundary, even on the weekends or when your clinic is closed. That said, it doesn't seem that most reasonable chains of command bother to charge you with any leave. I've left on weekend trips (Friday night to Sunday night, not interfering with work hours) and not had leave charged..... one CO gave me an "out of bounds" chit, another made me fill out leave papers and told me it would only be filed if my plane was late and I wasn't back on Monday morning. I've heard of people not having as much luck as me, but never known anyone personally that has had problems.

 

[Mirror Form]

I think with the Army, it's technically a 200 hundred mile (or around there) radius. If you go beyond that limit while not on leave, you're technically AWOL. If you're not on duty this wouldn't be a big deal, but if you get injured while away or something else happens that causes you to get busted, then you could get into a lot of trouble. That said, at most hospitals that I've worked at, people have just left and not bothered filing leave paperwork unless they were actually missing working days.

As far as red flags coming up for not filing for leave, I doubt it. It actually might be a good idea to not file leave paperwork if you're an intern. That way you'll make sure that you'll have your maximum number of leave days accumulated when you finish residency training.

 

[turkish]

Yeah, I've heard of people not taking official leave the entire duration of residency, just ducking out on weekends off, eventually accruing a sh**load of leave time.

Now the question is, what to do with all that...

Also, given my recent situation with my all-powerful CO, I'm thinking about not filing any leave paperwork at all this year. I can see things getting "lost" on his end if I did, potentially ruining any plans of mine. Plus I think he has figured out that if he denies my leave, I'm going to go anyhow, so that would give him a chance to try to bust me again.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

On a lighter note (God knows this forum can use a good belly laugh), I offer "Things I Can't Do....": http://www.fieldmedics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=812

 

[chopper]

You can sell them back? So at the end of intern year when I have 20 unused days, I can get an extra check to defray moving expenses?

As others have stated, your leave maintains as a running total from year to year. If, at the end of a fiscal year, your total leave balance is over 60 days, the military will just cut it down to 60 days. A nice way to screw you out of money (in the form of paid vacation) that you have earned. There are ways around this:
1. In certain crisis times (such as at the beginning of GWOT after 9/11) - I think there was a general message saying that individuals affected by deployments, etc could have this waived under certain circumstances
2. You are denied leave based on local working restrictions. That is, you ask to take leave, and are denied. You can then petition to have your leave balance kept above 60 days to the next fiscal year. This requires that you actually ask for leave, and your are denied - usually officially. It does not mean that you didn't take leave because your command just said "we won't let you take leave", and you don't ask for it. ASK FOR LEAVE IN WRITING, and GET THE DENIAL IN WRITING. You commander won't want to do this, but they are required to give you a written response to an official request. This is a mantra in line officer training.

As far as getting paid for unused leave. Yes, you can do it - but there are restrictions. It is a one-time deal at the end of your service. (also in certain cases of re-enlistment I believe, but not applicable to officers). Anyway, when you finally get out, you have 2 options with unused leave:
1. Get paid back whatever leave you haven't used. They will pay you back on a day-for day basis based on your BASE PAY ONLY.
2. Take terminal leave. This essentially moves up your final day of 'work', but you stay in the military officially, getting paid all your pays (housing, BAH, etc) until your leave is used up. Of course, this is dependent on the terminal leave being approved, and it may be disaapproved. But if you can get it, and you have a job waiting for you on the outside, it is awesome because you 'double dip' salaries for your terminal leave period. If you do it right, you get 2 months of double pay. very nice.

I hope this helps. It's a tricky system, but you will get used to it. I learned the hard way to monitor my leave carefully.

 

[former military]

Two things about leave I learned by watching the lifers play-

one is a trick where they schedule leave for a one day stretch... then at the last minute they cancel their leave and come to work... they have no schedule so it is a cush day... they make a few phone calls, catch up on admin, clean their office, work out, leave early....always send a few emails to your buddies so you can prove you were in the building

the other is where you schedule leave for say five days... go to vegas for wed-Sunday... covering yourself incase you get into an accident away from your home base... then when you get back... cancel the last two days of leave and only take 3....

I never felt too badly about this... in my six years of surgical residency I accumulated 30x6=180 days of leave and could only take 77 days do to restrictions about missing training time. and you could only carry 60 use or lose. I also lost some days when I had to use leave by Oct 1 and then 9/11 meant I couldn't take leave during that little stint. I lost a ton of time.

 

[MedicalCorpse]

I think it would be great if people would tell about things they know of that are allowed by the rules, maybe things that most people wonder about but are pretty unsure of. References would be good, but not required if the poster can give an idea of where the guideline might be found.

If you are an O-6 Anesthesia flight commander, you can schedule 250+ days/year of non-work, in order to do the following:

1) oversee your million dollar house being built for months on end
2) steal U.S. government supplies worth tens of thousands of dollars, in order to jump start your civilian pain clinic
3) spend hundreds of hours finagling your Legion of Merit medal, even though you haven't done anything meritorious ever (this may, however, play into Dropkick Murphy's MGMC "Legion" story, as in Demonic Legion...)
4) watch your twin kids for days when your nanny has "issues"
5) watch your twin kids because you are too d-mned cheap to pay for a live-in nanny, even though your O-4 subordinate has been doing so for years.
6) "Go to Walter Reed to do pain clinic stuff", even though nurses who had been there for twenty years do not know you by face, only by reputation, as the person who was supposed to show up to do pain, but who rarely/never did.
7) Show up for work around 1300, say, "What? I was scheduled for days? Hope you guys worked it out." Rely on suck-up subordinate originally scheduled for admin to do his real work (no-notice, short-suspense medicolegal review, moderate sedation instruction, etc.) to do your work for you without complaining, so that he can continue to make the work schedule, even though he is outranked by his colleague (MedicalCorpse). Stay at work until 1330, go home, let subordinates field calls from Squadron Commanders that can only be answered by your lazy self.
8) Show up for work around 0730 in full dress uniform, say you're going "permissive TDY" to Bolling AFB 1/2 hour away for a Surgeon General's Consultants' meeting. According to the USAF Orthopedic consultant and my USU classmate, never show up for *any* Consultants' meeting (personal communication). When paged, try to cover up the sounds of "Barney" in the background.

The key to the above is avoiding the entire military leave thing entirely. If you are a Flight Commander or above, you can essentially set your own life schedule. Use the following on the official duty schedule, which your boss, the Squadron Commander, *might* just read:
1) A = admin
2) WR = Walter Reed
3) P = pain (one Lumbar Epidural Steroid for 45 mins, then go home)
4) NC = Non Clinical
5) D = day shift, which, for regular (non-O-6) docs means 0700-1530 or later; for you, it means stay at home, watch your kids, and hope the 2 poor b-stards running 4-6 O.R.s plus preops plus OB plus codes plus IVs plus cardioversions plus anything else muddle through somehow.
6) PTDY = "Permissive TDY" = infinite number of days to goof off, while raking in $170,000.00 of taxpayer money to do, well, whatever you want.
7) TDY = "Temporary Duty" --> key is not to put this into the LeaveWeb system. The only person who could possibly figure out that you're not showing up for work is your Squadron Commander boss, who's too busy reprimanding the hardworking underlings beneath you to notice your habitual absence
8) Leave = Last resort. You can take up to 365 days/year of leave if you don't put it into the Leaveweb system, and simply don't show up for work.

If anyone complains about the above, remind them that you write (or at least sign) their OPRs, you determine who gets to go on deployments; and, as Consultant, you can take action against their clinical credentials, and you determine their PCS assignments, not AFPC. Remind them that both Balad and Elmendorf have openings right about now. Power corrupts, and absolute power is kinda cool.

--
R
http://www.medicalcorpse.com

 

[MedicalCorpse]

Of course, this is dependent on the terminal leave being approved, and it may be disaapproved. But if you can get it, and you have a job waiting for you on the outside, it is awesome because you 'double dip' salaries for your terminal leave period. If you do it right, you get 2 months of double pay. very nice.

Be very careful with this. You can get called in while on terminal leave to do anything they want you to do, including:

1) filling in at work for a sick/no-notice-deployed colleague
2) signing stupid paperwork that MPF determines will hold up your final out if you don't sign it *today*
3) Peeing in a cup
4) Apologizing, as an O-5, to your flight NCOIC that your e-mail gave the appearance of "disrespecting" his authority (I was ordered to come in to work from leave-- not terminal leave, leave-- to do just this ca. Feb 2004).
5) Anytime they need your body (real world recall, etc.)

Also remember that you need to obtain advance approval of "off-duty employment" in writing from your commander, even when you are on leave (to my knowledge, this includes terminal leave). If you are not the type of military doc who had time/energy/inclination to moonlight (such as myself, what with 3 kids and M.D. wife), don't assume you have carte blanche to work at a civilian job just because you are on TL status. They can still throw the book at you until the very last second of your active duty commitment.

I was very careful not to start my civilian job until 1 July. I told my future boss that I did not own my body until after midnight 30 June. He understood, and respected the fact that I didn't jeopardize his civilian anesthesiologist schedule by offering to work before I was 100% free and clear. I used June to work on my books and cooking. This was much better for my mental health than going to my civilian job prematurely, then dreading the phone call demanding that I show up to the base *right now*.

Of course, some people may want to roll the dice and chance it. I'm just not that way.

--
R
http://www.medicalcorpse.com

 

[DropkickMurphy]

you're not showing up for work is your Squadron Commander boss, who's too busy reprimanding the hardworking underlings beneath you to notice your habitual absence

Read bolded part as: Airman 1st Class DropkickMurphy

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Power corrupts, and absolute power is kinda cool.

As one of my subordinates on the fire department (a lieutenant) made the mistake of saying to me (a captain at the time): "There's nothing to succeeding at this really...you just have to either be blessed with absolutely no scrupples, or just to remember to check them at the door."

Needless to say, because it wasn't the military, he is no longer an officer (as opposed to being promoted).

 

[FliteSurgn]

Exactly what are the rules about traveling while not on "leave"? Can you go up to 200 miles from your base without a pass, or is that just a rumor?

I found a wide range of answers during my tenure in the USAF. While I was a flight surgeon (attached to a flying "line" squadron), our squadron commander allowed us 250 miles. The other squadrons were even more generous...one was 500 miles, one was 750 miles, and one was "however far you can get and still be back in 8 hours by plane, train, or automobile".

As a general surgeon attached to USAF "hospital" (ineptly managed hospital that was now just a clinic), we were told to take leave if you were going further than 25 miles outside of city limits. How's that for a kick in the b*lls.

 

[Homunculus]

Two things about leave I learned by watching the lifers play-

one is a trick where they schedule leave for a one day stretch... then at the last minute they cancel their leave and come to work... they have no schedule so it is a cush day... they make a few phone calls, catch up on admin, clean their office, work out, leave early....always send a few emails to your buddies so you can prove you were in the building.

very interesting . . . i like this one, lol. i've always wondered what would happen if my leave wasn't approved. i've been late a couple of times with my leave request, and i have to sign some "i should have sent it in sooner" memo thingy. the thing is, if my clinic has arranged for me to be gone, my attendings are expecting me to be gone, what's to keep me from leaving anyway? everything is covered . . .

the other is where you schedule leave for say five days... go to vegas for wed-Sunday... covering yourself incase you get into an accident away from your home base... then when you get back... cancel the last two days of leave and only take 3.....

so you're actually gone wed-fri and get back saturday? this one is a little confusing to me.

I never felt too badly about this... in my six years of surgical residency I accumulated 30x6=180 days of leave and could only take 77 days do to restrictions about missing training time. and you could only carry 60 use or lose. I also lost some days when I had to use leave by Oct 1 and then 9/11 meant I couldn't take leave during that little stint. I lost a ton of time.

one of our residents husbands is a gen surg resident. excpet for thier research year they get hammered

--your friendly neighborhood happy for only 3 years of residency caveman

 

[FliteSurgn]

Also remember that you need to obtain advance approval of "off-duty employment" in writing from your commander, even when you are on leave (to my knowledge, this includes terminal leave).

That is correct. To work during terminal leave, you are required to get approval from your commander.

Of course, one of my colleagues saw fit to moonlight all the time. He made big bucks. Here's how you do it

...complain to anyone that will listen in your chain of command that you are dying because you are so busy with your surgical workload
...(don't let them know that you are really only working 20-30 hours per week at the base and the rest of the time you are assisting the civilian surgeons and taking trauma call)
...beg them to get another provider
...get them to pay a civilian contract surgeon $30k per month to take some of your workload
...until
...they plop an fresh, unsuspecting, bright, hard-working, dedicated, and motivated active duty surgeon there to lessen this load a little
...continue to complain about being so busy while the new guy wonders where to find this "busy" work he keeps hearing about
...laugh to yourself about the new guy getting depressed by the utter lack of work (each surgeon averaging 4-5 cases per week and 80% of those are colonoscopy)
...now you only have to work 15-20 hours at the base, so you can moonlight even more

To cover your tracks, you can tell people that you're going to the gym everyday after lunch. Then, feel free to go home and take a nice nap, watch your kids, and/or do your own civlian surgical cases. Oh, and don't worry, since you ...ahem...came down with asthma right before you were scheduled for deployment, the new guy will be happy to be the only deployable surgeon...unless that deployment is for backfilling in the US...then, please, feel free to go yourself.

I hope that helps.

 

[chopper]

If you are an O-6 Anesthesia flight commander, you can schedule 250+ days/year of non-work, in order to do the following:

1) oversee your million dollar house being built for months on end
2) steal U.S. government supplies worth tens of thousands of dollars, in order to jump start your civilian pain clinic
3) spend hundreds of hours finagling your Legion of Merit medal, even though you haven't done anything meritorious ever (this may, however, play into Dropkick Murphy's MGMC "Legion" story, as in Demonic Legion...)
4) watch your twin kids for days when your nanny has "issues"
5) watch your twin kids because you are too d-mned cheap to pay for a live-in nanny, even though your O-4 subordinate has been doing so for years.
6) "Go to Walter Reed to do pain clinic stuff", even though nurses who had been there for twenty years do not know you by face, only by reputation, as the person who was supposed to show up to do pain, but who rarely/never did.
7) Show up for work around 1300, say, "What? I was scheduled for days? Hope you guys worked it out." Rely on suck-up subordinate originally scheduled for admin to do his real work (no-notice, short-suspense medicolegal review, moderate sedation instruction, etc.) to do your work for you without complaining, so that he can continue to make the work schedule, even though he is outranked by his colleague (MedicalCorpse). Stay at work until 1330, go home, let subordinates field calls from Squadron Commanders that can only be answered by your lazy self.
8) Show up for work around 0730 in full dress uniform, say you're going "permissive TDY" to Bolling AFB 1/2 hour away for a Surgeon General's Consultants' meeting. According to the USAF Orthopedic consultant and my USU classmate, never show up for *any* Consultants' meeting (personal communication). When paged, try to cover up the sounds of "Barney" in the background.

The key to the above is avoiding the entire military leave thing entirely. If you are a Flight Commander or above, you can essentially set your own life schedule. Use the following on the official duty schedule, which your boss, the Squadron Commander, *might* just read:
1) A = admin
2) WR = Walter Reed
3) P = pain (one Lumbar Epidural Steroid for 45 mins, then go home)
4) NC = Non Clinical
5) D = day shift, which, for regular (non-O-6) docs means 0700-1530 or later; for you, it means stay at home, watch your kids, and hope the 2 poor b-stards running 4-6 O.R.s plus preops plus OB plus codes plus IVs plus cardioversions plus anything else muddle through somehow.
6) PTDY = "Permissive TDY" = infinite number of days to goof off, while raking in $170,000.00 of taxpayer money to do, well, whatever you want.
7) TDY = "Temporary Duty" --> key is not to put this into the LeaveWeb system. The only person who could possibly figure out that you're not showing up for work is your Squadron Commander boss, who's too busy reprimanding the hardworking underlings beneath you to notice your habitual absence
8) Leave = Last resort. You can take up to 365 days/year of leave if you don't put it into the Leaveweb system, and simply don't show up for work.

If anyone complains about the above, remind them that you write (or at least sign) their OPRs, you determine who gets to go on deployments; and, as Consultant, you can take action against their clinical credentials, and you determine their PCS assignments, not AFPC. Remind them that both Balad and Elmendorf have openings right about now. Power corrupts, and absolute power is kinda cool.

--
R
http://www.medicalcorpse.com

My lord. I was in agreement with the 'keep this just one forum argument' camp, because as many said, straightforward questions were usually given straightforward answers. But you can't even do that. Alright, I get it. You had a boss who took over 250 days off. Enuf already.

Give the guy some useful information and then insert the 'I had a boss who was terrible' post into one of the other 30 threads that show how much you hate military medicine.

Don't get me wrong, those threads are what keep me coming back. They are entertaining. It just seems that you can't stop from telling the same story over and over. and over. and over. and over.

 

[MedicalCorpse]

Don't get me wrong, those threads are what keep me coming back. They are entertaining. It just seems that you can't stop from telling the same story over and over. and over. and over. and over.

I never explicitly described how my boss managed to stay away from work for 250 days/year.

If it makes you happy, now that I have, I shall merely post a reply to some newbie to the forum (there are such, you know, who haven't read everything in the chronological order you and other regulars have) referencing leave issues with a link to this one.

I think it is relevant to the thread: what you can do/can't do. If people want specific answers to specific questions, they usually get them, and I do not butt in (99% of the time). Here are a few recent examples of *specific* threads:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=323599 (no replies)
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=324443 (one reply)
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=321837 (several replies, all "on topic" for specific thread)
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=320225 (two replies)
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=322998 (two replies, including a bitter but correct, on-topic reply, which the following poster reiterated in a more elegant and less verbose fashion, which is, frankly, beyond my skills at this point in my incarnation)

I understand that you appear to prefer this kind of thread. Ask question. Answer question. Next thread. Ask. Answer. That's fine. I personally prefer a more wide-ranging discussion of the issues facing U.S. military medicine in 2006 and beyond. Others here agree with you. Some agree with me.

As I have said, I started a thread on military CBT which devolved into comparisons with Angelina Jolie, anigifs asking for pics, and, finally, discussion of which military uniforms made people look fat. I did not huff and puff on my own thread regarding how off-topic these stream of consciousness shifts were. I did not demand that moderators TOS the miscreants overboard for violation of TSA anti-thread-hijacking rules.

Shift happens. Just deal.

--
R
http://www.medicalcorpse.com

 

[former military]

yes, that is how you do it... kudos to those people who can moonlight during the week without taking leave with the keeping my skills up ploy. Kudos to those who get a small surgery done- 10-14 days of convalescent leave then moonlight during that time.

 

[chopper]

I never explicitly described how my boss managed to stay away from work for 250 days/year.

If it makes you happy, now that I have, I shall merely post a reply to some newbie to the forum (there are such, you know, who haven't read everything in the chronological order you and other regulars have) referencing leave issues with a link to this one.

I think it is relevant to the thread: what you can do/can't do. If people want specific answers to specific questions, they usually get them, and I do not butt in (99% of the time). Here are a few recent examples of *specific* threads:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=323599 (no replies)
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=324443 (one reply)
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=321837 (several replies, all "on topic" for specific thread)
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=320225 (two replies)
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=322998 (two replies, including a bitter but correct, on-topic reply, which the following poster reiterated in a more elegant and less verbose fashion, which is, frankly, beyond my skills at this point in my incarnation)

I understand that you appear to prefer this kind of thread. Ask question. Answer question. Next thread. Ask. Answer. That's fine. I personally prefer a more wide-ranging discussion of the issues facing U.S. military medicine in 2006 and beyond. Others here agree with you. Some agree with me.

As I have said, I started a thread on military CBT which devolved into comparisons with Angelina Jolie, anigifs asking for pics, and, finally, discussion of which military uniforms made people look fat. I did not huff and puff on my own thread regarding how off-topic these stream of consciousness shifts were. I did not demand that moderators TOS the miscreants overboard for violation of TSA anti-thread-hijacking rules.

Shift happens. Just deal.

--
R
http://www.medicalcorpse.com

Rob,
I'm sorry if I offended you. I thought I was making a pretty good point (maybe with a bit of sarcasm, but I figured you were big enough to take it), of the irony surrounding the fact that almost everyone who didn't want to split this forum up stated that for more 'factual' posts, people could still find good concise information without instand degeneration into the more 'aggressive' postings of some people on the forum. It was also stated that these types of threads served their purpose - ask question, answer question, then back to the other threads.

I still don't see what your post had to do at all with helping some young officer learn what he can/can't do when asking for and taking leave. I know it took me a couple years to figure the system out. I have read your post a couple times, and I can't for the life of me figure out how it is supposed to be helpful in answering his question. I tried to picture me as a young ensign, asking my salty prior enlisted roomate about what I could do about leave:

'Sonny, I'm having trouble figuring out this whole leave thing. I wish there was some way to know what I can/can't do about leave and liberty'
'If you are the captain, you can do any of the following 50 things that have absolutely nothing to do with anything an ensign will ever be in a position to do that make you look like a tool to your subordinates'
'Uh, Sonny - thanks, but I really just wanted to know if I could fly home this weekend without taking leave. I'm thinking you might have some issues there. I'll go ask PSD about this. Thanks'

Look - you can say whatever you want. I could care less. And I'm certainly not going to start qouting TOS, or tattling to some moderator. I have no idea where you get that from.

 

[chopper]

Be very careful with this. You can get called in while on terminal leave to do anything they want you to do, including:

1) filling in at work for a sick/no-notice-deployed colleague
2) signing stupid paperwork that MPF determines will hold up your final out if you don't sign it *today*
3) Peeing in a cup
4) Apologizing, as an O-5, to your flight NCOIC that your e-mail gave the appearance of "disrespecting" his authority (I was ordered to come in to work from leave-- not terminal leave, leave-- to do just this ca. Feb 2004).
5) Anytime they need your body (real world recall, etc.)

Also remember that you need to obtain advance approval of "off-duty employment" in writing from your commander, even when you are on leave (to my knowledge, this includes terminal leave). If you are not the type of military doc who had time/energy/inclination to moonlight (such as myself, what with 3 kids and M.D. wife), don't assume you have carte blanche to work at a civilian job just because you are on TL status. They can still throw the book at you until the very last second of your active duty commitment.

I was very careful not to start my civilian job until 1 July. I told my future boss that I did not own my body until after midnight 30 June. He understood, and respected the fact that I didn't jeopardize his civilian anesthesiologist schedule by offering to work before I was 100% free and clear. I used June to work on my books and cooking. This was much better for my mental health than going to my civilian job prematurely, then dreading the phone call demanding that I show up to the base *right now*.

Of course, some people may want to roll the dice and chance it. I'm just not that way.

--
R
http://www.medicalcorpse.com

I'll defer to you on this one. I will admit that my expertise here is from the line. I did terminal leave, so did all my buddies when they got out. And just about all of us had jobs lined up, and started at some point during terminal leave. I never heard of anybody being called back, or getting permission to work during terminal leave. I did all my outprocessing, spent the week in Norfolk, did the whole DD-213 thing. I was long gone from my command when my terminal leave even started.

But then again, I was lucky to have a good supportive chain of command. I can imagine if you had a bunch of vindictive asses above you, they could make your transition hell.

But, realize it is there as an option. And as with anything, don't take anything we say here on line as gospel. Use it as guidance, and verify it all independently in some instruction. The military has instructions for everything. They just aren't always easy to read.

 

[MedicalCorpse]

Rob,
I'm sorry if I offended you.

Sniff. It would have been O.K., but you took the Lord's name in vain, and after that it all turned red... (see the second link below)

'If you are the captain, you can do any of the following 50 things that have absolutely nothing to do with anything an ensign will ever be in a position to do that make you look like a tool to your subordinates'

All part of my Kuebler-Ross DABDA inprocessing checklist for new HPSP/USU students.

Once you get to D-- Depression-- you've made it.

I was trying to point out, in my own way, that no matter what the rules are for O-1s and O-3s, there will always be those who scam the leave system. Not all are O-6s like my infamous absentee landlady Flt CC, "Dr. Hurtus". Then there's Dr. "No Way!", an anesthesiologist who came onto active duty pregnant, with pre-e and PUPPS which I diagnosed for her, just prior to my wheeling her personally down to the OB clinic. She signed up for 120 days of leave as soon as she showed up, before she could earn any. My spineless Flt CC, Col. (Dr.) Wrong, let her do this...essentially, a "leave bank" which kept multiple weeks away from her 7 other colleagues.

So, I guess my point was: in the military, there will be those who break all the rules (including those regarding leave) with impunity, so Check Yer Six. What you CAN do and what you CAN'T do is less important than what you should or should not do. Moreover, if someone expects specific information in replies to a thread, it's probably better to start off by asking: "Best Rotation for Melanin-Challenged Welsh/German/Italian Americans Who Use Big Words Too Much" rather than: "Things you can do/Things you can't do".

Look - you can say whatever you want. I could care less. And I'm certainly not going to start qouting TOS, or tattling to some moderator. I have no idea where you get that from.

Sorry, dude, I guess I'm jumpy after the "alternative interrogation techniques" IgD, one of the "forum splitter" wannabes, has used on me the past coupla days:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=4207954&postcount=58
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=4207914&postcount=15

...wherein I am accused of being a TOS-violator, troll, spammer, thread hijacker, mistreater, abuser, heretic, leper, pariah, chronic flatus-producer, and BeeGees fan.

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." —President George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002

If have unjustly painted you with the wire brush reserved for those who whine to moderators when people say true things they don't like, then I apologize.

--
R
http://www.medicalcorpse.com
Your MCWGIAWUBWTM in Residence

 

[former military]

very interesting . . . i like this one, lol. i've always wondered what would happen if my leave wasn't approved. i've been late a couple of times with my leave request, and i have to sign some "i should have sent it in sooner" memo thingy. the thing is, if my clinic has arranged for me to be gone, my attendings are expecting me to be gone, what's to keep me from leaving anyway? everything is covered . . .



so you're actually gone wed-fri and get back saturday? this one is a little confusing to me.



one of our residents husbands is a gen surg resident. excpet for thier research year they get hammered

--your friendly neighborhood happy for only 3 years of residency caveman

Well, the rationale goes like this... at your regular doctor job you work monday through friday and if not on call, can go anywhere on the weekend.... why would you want to burn precious leave on a weekend day? but you have to if you are going to travel and be back sunday night...what if you were in a car accident in Vegas while not on leave....? supposedly you should be at home.... so when you make it back sunday night.... you pretend... you came back Fri night... you only use those weekend days if forced.... you only want to use weekend days if you go someplace that spans two work weeks....

 

[chopper]

Sniff. It would have been O.K., but you took the Lord's name in vain, and after that it all turned red... (see the second link below)



All part of my Kuebler-Ross DABDA inprocessing checklist for new HPSP/USU students.

Once you get to D-- Depression-- you've made it.

I was trying to point out, in my own way, that no matter what the rules are for O-1s and O-3s, there will always be those who scam the leave system. Not all are O-6s like my infamous absentee landlady Flt CC, "Dr. Hurtus". Then there's Dr. "No Way!", an anesthesiologist who came onto active duty pregnant, with pre-e and PUPPS which I diagnosed for her, just prior to my wheeling her personally down to the OB clinic. She signed up for 120 days of leave as soon as she showed up, before she could earn any. My spineless Flt CC, Col. (Dr.) Wrong, let her do this...essentially, a "leave bank" which kept multiple weeks away from her 7 other colleagues.

So, I guess my point was: in the military, there will be those who break all the rules (including those regarding leave) with impunity, so Check Yer Six. What you CAN do and what you CAN'T do is less important than what you should or should not do. Moreover, if someone expects specific information in replies to a thread, it's probably better to start off by asking: "Best Rotation for Melanin-Challenged Welsh/German/Italian Americans Who Use Big Words Too Much" rather than: "Things you can do/Things you can't do".



Sorry, dude, I guess I'm jumpy after the "alternative interrogation techniques" IgD, one of the "forum splitter" wannabes, has used on me the past coupla days:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=4207954&postcount=58
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=4207914&postcount=15

...wherein I am accused of being a TOS-violator, troll, spammer, thread hijacker, mistreater, abuser, heretic, leper, pariah, chronic flatus-producer, and BeeGees fan.

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." —President George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002

If have unjustly painted you with the wire brush reserved for those who whine to moderators when people say true things they don't like, then I apologize.

--
R
http://www.medicalcorpse.com
Your MCWGIAWUBWTM in Residence

The only thing I will accuse you of is being a drama-queen. You must have been a hoot to watch in action when on active duty.

take care
chopper

 

[chopper]

Well, the rationale goes like this... at your regular doctor job you work monday through friday and if not on call, can go anywhere on the weekend.... why would you want to burn precious leave on a weekend day? but you have to if you are going to travel and be back sunday night...what if you were in a car accident in Vegas while not on leave....? supposedly you should be at home.... so when you make it back sunday night.... you pretend... you came back Fri night... you only use those weekend days if forced.... you only want to use weekend days if you go someplace that spans two work weeks....

Hmmmm - this sounds a bit fishy (not to say people don't do it). We couldn't do this, at least this way - according to the rules we were given. We were required to call in if we went on leave, or returned - outside normal working hours. So, if we got back Friday night, we would call in to the quarterdeck (manned 24/7), and say we were back in town and off leave. If we did this from Vegas, and then couldn't make it back - big big big no,no.

Of course, as an officer, you probably could go to the admin guys and have them back date things, using your 'I'm an officer and I say I was back on Friday, and you should trust me' line. Bad form, in my opinion, but reading this forum, I wouldn't put it past some people. If you are willing to sacrifice your integrity and play the lottery and hope to not get caught, there is quite a bit you can do.

We had something called 'basket leave' that was in a very grey area of the rules. Leave papers would be approved up the chain, and then put in the 'in-basket' of the XO/admin officer. If nothing happened to you on leave (car accident, whatever) - the leave papers would be ripped up when you time was over. I only saw this done (and sactioned) when I was graduating from ROTC. But you were covered in case anything did happen. We had a month or so to report to our first duty station, and the ROTC unit allowed us to use basket leave since we had no leave built up.

 

[MedicalCorpse]

The only thing I will accuse you of is being a drama-queen.

Dude, yer lucky I'm a civilian Pagan who's far from homophobic, unlike a lot of vermillion-naped folks in Merka's Armed Forces, else the "Queen" remark would constitute fahtin' words. As it is, I would rather be called a Drama Duke or Drama Baron (not yet good enough to be Drama Emperor...although some might [incorrectly] think that I am working on it on this forum).

I have strong opinions. I voice them fearlessly. I stand up for myself when my honor or motivations are impugned. My literary style, if I might call it that, includes metaphor, simile, hyperbole, and a bunch of other flowery crap that makes my prose funner (sic) to read than the latest NOTAM. If that makes me the Duke Duke Duke, Duke of Drama, then so be it.

You must have been a hoot to watch in action when on active duty.

take care
chopper

I was indeed. Any USU student who sat through my 0730-0930 SFOS lectures on oxygen and CO2 physiology between 2002-2004 can attest to that fact. I was especially entertaining in 2004, when I lectured under the influence of 100 mg prednisone/day for a severe case of poison ivy...talk about manic stream of consciouslessness!

Later,

--
R
http://www.medicalcorpse.com

 

[VolatileNavyDoc]

Hmmmm - this sounds a bit fishy (not to say people don't do it). We couldn't do this, at least this way - according to the rules we were given. We were required to call in if we went on leave, or returned - outside normal working hours. So, if we got back Friday night, we would call in to the quarterdeck (manned 24/7), and say we were back in town and off leave. If we did this from Vegas, and then couldn't make it back - big big big no,no.

Of course, as an officer, you probably could go to the admin guys and have them back date things, using your 'I'm an officer and I say I was back on Friday, and you should trust me' line. Bad form, in my opinion, but reading this forum, I wouldn't put it past some people. If you are willing to sacrifice your integrity and play the lottery and hope to not get caught, there is quite a bit you can do.

We had something called 'basket leave' that was in a very grey area of the rules. Leave papers would be approved up the chain, and then put in the 'in-basket' of the XO/admin officer. If nothing happened to you on leave (car accident, whatever) - the leave papers would be ripped up when you time was over. I only saw this done (and sactioned) when I was graduating from ROTC. But you were covered in case anything did happen. We had a month or so to report to our first duty station, and the ROTC unit allowed us to use basket leave since we had no leave built up.

Along the lines of things you can and can't do.... I agree with some of the other posters that there is very little that you can't do in the military given the appropriate amount of cunning and risk taking. As an officer though I think there are a lot of things that you "should not" do, regardless of how petty and really criminal some of the posters' chains of command seem to be.

"Basket leave" is one of those things that should not be done really under any circumstances. It's also one of those things that is done on a fairly regular basis. Basically, no one has the authority to authorize time off above a 96 hour liberty unless you have a couple of stars on your shoulder. If you get caught, which you probably won't, it's fraud against the government. Now, I think that if you just want to take a 96 and travel outside of the boundaries you can do something like this, like someone mentioned, where you have some leave papers on file in case you get stuck, but then you get charged with that leave if you go beyond your 96.

In the Navy, as far as I can tell, we pretty much make up our own liberty boundaries depending on rank and duty station. For instance... our liberty boundaries are roughly 600 miles to the south, 300 miles to the north, 200 miles to the west 350 miles to the East. It honestly think the CO just looked at all the major cities around us and gave us those as liberty boundaries. I have a good chain of command, so we can pretty much do anything within reason and nobody's going to be petty and try to treat you like a child.

Another thing you'll see people doing that you shouldn't do is falsifying travel claims. You can basically say you paid for anything under a certain amount and claim it without a receipt. I've heard of people claim all kinds of things they didn't pay for.

Another thing you can and should do is learn the rules while you're in the military. OP, judging from one of your other posts, you had a rough time of it from your dual COC and an NCO. You might have to take a chewing from higher ranking officers occasionally, but you don't have to take it from people of the same rank or lower (i.e. Seargent Major of Marine Corps (I don't know the AF equivalent) can't call you up on the carpet to counsel you no matter what his position is). From listening to you guys in the AF, I'm glad I work under the Navy rules for COC. My best advice as far as learning the rules goes is to make friends with one of the line guys and pimp him for the rules when you have a question. Those guys generally know it all as far as military stuff goes. Hope this helps some.

 

[MedicalCorpse]

You might have to take a chewing from higher ranking officers occasionally, but you don't have to take it from people of the same rank or lower (i.e. Seargent Major of Marine Corps (I don't know the AF equivalent) can't call you up on the carpet to counsel you no matter what his position is). From listening to you guys in the AF, I'm glad I work under the Navy rules for COC. My best advice as far as learning the rules goes is to make friends with one of the line guys and pimp him for the rules when you have a question. Those guys generally know it all as far as military stuff goes. Hope this helps some.

Good post with excellent advice!

Make sure you listen to the line guys re: ml of Surgilube(R) required when correcting your Commander.

--
R
http://www.medicalcorpse.com

 

[chopper]

Along the lines of things you can and can't do.... I agree with some of the other posters that there is very little that you can't do in the military given the appropriate amount of cunning and risk taking. As an officer though I think there are a lot of things that you "should not" do, regardless of how petty and really criminal some of the posters' chains of command seem to be.

"Basket leave" is one of those things that should not be done really under any circumstances. It's also one of those things that is done on a fairly regular basis. Basically, no one has the authority to authorize time off above a 96 hour liberty unless you have a couple of stars on your shoulder. If you get caught, which you probably won't, it's fraud against the government. Now, I think that if you just want to take a 96 and travel outside of the boundaries you can do something like this, like someone mentioned, where you have some leave papers on file in case you get stuck, but then you get charged with that leave if you go beyond your 96.

In the Navy, as far as I can tell, we pretty much make up our own liberty boundaries depending on rank and duty station. For instance... our liberty boundaries are roughly 600 miles to the south, 300 miles to the north, 200 miles to the west 350 miles to the East. It honestly think the CO just looked at all the major cities around us and gave us those as liberty boundaries. I have a good chain of command, so we can pretty much do anything within reason and nobody's going to be petty and try to treat you like a child.

Another thing you'll see people doing that you shouldn't do is falsifying travel claims. You can basically say you paid for anything under a certain amount and claim it without a receipt. I've heard of people claim all kinds of things they didn't pay for.

Another thing you can and should do is learn the rules while you're in the military. OP, judging from one of your other posts, you had a rough time of it from your dual COC and an NCO. You might have to take a chewing from higher ranking officers occasionally, but you don't have to take it from people of the same rank or lower (i.e. Seargent Major of Marine Corps (I don't know the AF equivalent) can't call you up on the carpet to counsel you no matter what his position is). From listening to you guys in the AF, I'm glad I work under the Navy rules for COC. My best advice as far as learning the rules goes is to make friends with one of the line guys and pimp him for the rules when you have a question. Those guys generally know it all as far as military stuff goes. Hope this helps some.

Agree - very good post. Esp the getting in with a line guy. Alot of this is bread and butter to them. They can help you out a whole lot.

 

[turkish]

Can you take your own sidearm into theater? 9mm seems pretty inadequate should the situation arise to have to use it.

 

[VolatileNavyDoc]

Can you take your own sidearm into theater? 9mm seems pretty inadequate should the situation arise to have to use it.

Don't know the answer (No would be my guess), but I think the bigger problem would be getting the ammunition you need. Almost all of the individual weapons fire either a 9mm or a 5.56 round, so it's really easy to get ammunition for them. I know some guys take their own 9mm, but if you take a 45 or something, it would be hard to find ammo. The Navy used to issue 45s, but as far as I know, they use 9mm now too.

 

[former military]

You cannot take your own side arm... whether it shoots the same ammunition e.g. 9 mm or not... you can only have the one serial number assigned to you and you can't sign up to take your personal berretta 92 9 mm either. I am sure that people do... who is going to check my beretta 96 40 caliber that looks exactly like the issued beretta 92 9 mm but if you were found out you could be disciplined and have a hard time getting it back.. they would likely lose it like they lost a bunch of my staff at the base armoury. Little crap like that can be the biggest deal ever.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

*deleted*

 

[Ex-44E3A]

Why would you want to take your own beretta? Take the one the AF gives you (they're usually at least serviceable) and scratch it, abuse it, and leave it there when you rotate back home. You're not likely to ever need it anyway.

It'd be different if you were a tactical operator who depended on your weapon every single day... in that situation I'd damned sure want something I'd personally zeroed, tuned, tested, and adjusted to my own idiosyncracies.

That said, as a doc, that ain't you (unless you're AFSOC, JSOC, or something like that... but then there's a whole different set of rules for those types)

 

[turkish]

How many days off do we get during internship? Is it 10 (two working weeks) or 15 (since we have to include weekends in our leave period)???

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

they would likely lose it like they lost a bunch of my staff at the base armoury. Little crap like that can be the biggest deal ever.

They lost your staff??? I guess that would be a problem!

 

[former military]

They lost your staff??? I guess that would be a problem!

They lost thine Rod and mine Staff... I did not want to lay down near still waters after that.....