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[Dr_Feelgood]

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That is a perfectly fine distinction. Because there is a stronger emphasis on the lower extremity, I believe it would be more proper to say podiatric medical school. Since we learn about the physiology and pathology of the whole body and also rotate through various medical specialties, it would make sense that podiatry school is a form of medical school. Is everyone ok with podiatric medical school? Good. Lets end this conversation. Yomama, Im glad to see that you have a good repor with the pod residents at your hospital. I know that the uneducated are most commonly the loudest. Because the education of podiatrists has changed so much in the last 10 years, I dont blame some of the old docs for raising an eyebrow because of what the education used to be like. Things have changed drastically, and with time Im sure that most will see the extensive training today's graduating podiatrists have and this topic will eventually subside on SDN.

I'm okay w/ podiatric medical school. That was basically what we have been saying all along b/c physicians graduate from medical schools. So if podiatrist graduate from podiatric MEDICAL SCHOOL, they are physicians.

 

[OOK]

just because you went to stanford does not mean that your opinion overrides the opinion of other MDs. you criticize bill for being an ass, and yet with your post you come off no better than he did.

i agree with supafly...

MD/DO = medical school
DPM= podiatric medical school

splitting hairs? maybe. however lots of undergrad students work their ass off to get into an MD program, while they could have gotten into a podiatric medical school with little to no effort. i think this petty BS will end when podiatric med school stops accepting those w/ 18 MCAT or those that received a 2 on their physical science sections.

some people claim that their students are just as smart as medical students.....and i claim BS. if they were, they would show it on their tests.

do you think that your thought corresponds to your writing? DPM= podiatric MEDICAL SCHOOL! think again. you just agree with the fact that pods go to Medical school. what about that:
MD= allopathic medical school
DO= osteopathic medical school
DPM+ podiatric medical school

 

[blazenmadison]

do you think that your thought corresponds to your writing? DPM= podiatric MEDICAL SCHOOL! think again. you just agree with the fact that pods go to Medical school. what about that:
MD= allopathic medical school
DO= osteopathic medical school
DPM+ podiatric medical school

Nationwide acceptance rate into DPM school is 80%???? 😱

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Nationwide acceptance rate into DPM school is 80%???? 😱

Does the acceptance rate affect the subject material? Also, I agree some schools are too accepting of poor students. The acceptance rate at CPMS last year was about 17%. 318 applicants, 55 new students.

Also, allopathic schools had over 448K applications last year. Osteopathic schools had 8255 applications. They accepted 3308. How many of the applicants went to allopathic schools? I would guess that out of the 8255 applicants that about 80% were accepted in either an allopathic or osteopathic school.

 

[JointDocMD]

do you think that your thought corresponds to your writing? DPM= podiatric MEDICAL SCHOOL! think again. you just agree with the fact that pods go to Medical school. what about that:
MD= allopathic medical school
DO= osteopathic medical school
DPM+ podiatric medical school

i never said that podiatric students werent in medical school. what i disagree with is that there is not a difference in curriculum and caliber of student between the 3. a recent poster brought up the similarities of podiatrists and cardiologists and i couldnt believe my eyes. for the record, i dont have anything against podiatrists at all.

 

[capo]

yo's ip address is not unique. in other words, he/she is a fraud. one of you guys. as you can see by the poll, if you take out your guys votes, 100% of people think that podiatrists are not physicians. sorry to break your heart, lol 😛

bill, exactly how do YOU have access to anyone's IP address? Tell me this, so I can get access to yours as well. YOU, my friend, are the fraud.

 

[capo]

i never said that podiatric students werent in medical school. what i disagree with is that there is not a difference between the 3. i dont have anything against podiatrists at all.

Joint, what EXACTLY is this difference? They ALL have "Medical" school in their names, no?

 

[JointDocMD]

Joint, what EXACTLY is this difference? They ALL have "Medical" school in their names, no?

i edited my last reply to tell you what i think the differences are. im not here to make anyone angry, so this will be my last post. as i said before i have absolutely nothing against you podiatrists and i think you're an integral member of the health team. have a good one.

 

[OOK]

Nationwide acceptance rate into DPM school is 80%???? 😱

can you use your brain to think? what does that means? the percentage depends on applicants number. if there is 100 spots at any medicaal schoo and only 80 apply, what is the percentage? again, don't act like stupid.

 

[OOK]

i never said that podiatric students werent in medical school. what i disagree with is that there is not a difference in curriculum and caliber of student between the 3. a recent poster brought up the similarities of podiatrists and cardiologists and i couldnt believe my eyes. for the record, i dont have anything against podiatrists at all.

there is no relation b/t cardiologist and podiatrist.
our curriculum is slightly different from MD and DO. but it doesn't matter. the fact is we are all working for the good of the patients. if you become a heart surgeon you gonna prescribe medication affecting mainly the heart not the vagina. the same thing for a podiatrist. the whole discussion is nonsense. you have no right to look down on a podiatrist b/c they learn for the good of the patients. the same for podiatrists.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

i never said that podiatric students werent in medical school. what i disagree with is that there is not a difference in curriculum and caliber of student between the 3. a recent poster brought up the similarities of podiatrists and cardiologists and i couldnt believe my eyes. for the record, i dont have anything against podiatrists at all.

I'm not disagreeing w/ you that there are higher levels of expectations for a cardiologist than a pod. I also agree that the caliber of students in allopathic schools is higher than pod schools. The basic science curriculum is the same but the overall training is not. A cardiologist is in residency for a lifetime. Pods are in for a max of 36 months and then they can go into a fellowship. I think you posted at the wrong time and would have been more accepted but a-holes like Bill make people a little defensive.

 

[IlizaRob]

i edited my last reply to tell you what i think the differences are. im not here to make anyone angry, so this will be my last post. as i said before i have absolutely nothing against you podiatrists and i think you're an integral member of the health team. have a good one.

I agree with Dr. Feelgood. People were getting defensive from Bill's claims that pods were nothing more than a highschool runner compared to a world class athlete. I agree that when taking total training including residency into consideration, Cardiologists go through a lot more than pods. And rightfully so, look at all the responsibility they have. We all have important roles in the health care of a patient which no other can perform better. Why not treat each other as a team? Insults are not warranted in the health care profession and such egos are detrimental to the patient's health. (Im not refering to you JointDoc but to everyone in general)

 

[capo]

Aptly put by both of you two. 👍

 

[drbeesh]

People this Debate of MDs vs DPMs...or Med school or not...its all irrelevant...

When these people get out there in the clinics and hospitals, they will be forced to interact with different specialties and different types of physicians...if an ignorant really feels that a DPM who specializes in lower extremity conditions and surgery is "not a physician" or "not intelligent enough" then he can choose not to work with her/him...but believe me, this doesn't do the patient any good...at the end of the day, those who choose to work with the other specialists and healthcare providers are those who will maintain the health of the patient as a priority...

We can debate for days and years about this topic and go back into circles and in fact look like complete "professional" children or simply agree to move on and put a stop to this...let your work do the talking because all this is irrelevant empty talk - nothing more. You're all future professionals and will be providing important services for the health of your patients...your "importance" and "value" will be judged by your patients not by anyone else...

good luck to all of you 👍

 

[medtj2010]

I agree that pods are physicians, but I think some of the problems come from AMA definitions. This is from the AMA:

RELEVANT AMA POLICY

H-405.989 Physicians and Surgeons
(1) It is AMA policy to refer only to Doctors of Medicine (MDs) and Doctors of Osteopathy (DOs) as “physicians and surgeons.” (2) The AMA supports working to ensure that federal and state regulations and hospital medical staff bylaws comply with this designation. (Res. 78, I-88; Reaffirmed: Sunset Report, I-98; Reaffirmed in lieu of Res. 615, A-05)

 

[billclinton]

i do not understand how you make the jump that i would not be able to work with podiatrists.. in reality, i do work with pods everyday. the difference is in the real world they are not referred to as physicians or having went to medical school. They are podiatrists that went to pod school who are qualified to work on feet and some ankle problems. You guys took offense to my simple correction of terminology. i already stated that i agree they have an important and integral part in medical care.

i was merely disagreeing with what the OP originally said, then i disagreed to the person who stated that the training of pods are eqivalent to MDs/DOs, and then i disagreed to the person who stated that cardiologists training is the same has pods. All these things are false. I have not stated anything untrue and I have not attacked anyone. Many people have attacked me and even made up aliases with false identities, but this these are natural reactions for when you cannot use facts to disprove what someone says. I do not need to make personal attacks because I can use facts.

I feel sorry for the few that feel they have to fall back to inflammatory remarks and cannot argue in a civil fashion. You cannot carry a chip on your shoulder forever. This, my friend, will be what sets you back in the real world. Good luck to all!

 

[doclm]

i never said that podiatric students werent in medical school. what i disagree with is that there is not a difference in curriculum and caliber of student between the 3.QUOTE]

I totally agree that there is a difference in curriculum between MD/DO and DPM medical school, as it should be. DPM's are lower extremity specialists. Especially when it comes to the foot/ankle and biomechanics of mobility.

Podiatry school is a medical school that grants a Doctorate in Podiatric Medicine. I wouldn't necessarily assume that most Podiatric students are lower caliber. Sure, some people get in easier because of a lower applicant pool, but that does not mean that we all are lower caliber students than any other MD/DO students. First of all, your basis of caliber is soley based on MCAT and GPA. As some of us have a high enough GPA and MCAT to be a "higher caliber." Not all of us want a MD/DO degree either, as there is a reason why many of us desire to be DPM students. However, in terms of caliber, you did not look at passion, work ethic, humanity, and communication skills. All which are very important in becoming a successful physician.

 

[billclinton]

i never said that podiatric students werent in medical school. what i disagree with is that there is not a difference in curriculum and caliber of student between the 3.QUOTE]

I totally agree that there is a difference in curriculum between MD/DO and DPM medical school, as it should be. DPM's are lower extremity specialists. Especially when it comes to the foot/ankle and biomechanics of mobility.

Podiatry school is a medical school that grants a Doctorate in Podiatric Medicine. I wouldn't necessarily assume that most Podiatric students are lower caliber. Sure, some people get in easier because of a lower applicant pool, but that does not mean that we all are lower caliber students than any other MD/DO students. First of all, your basis of caliber is soley based on MCAT and GPA. As some of us have a high enough GPA and MCAT to be a "higher caliber." Not all of us want a MD/DO degree either, as there is a reason why many of us desire to be DPM students. However, in terms of caliber, you did not look at passion, work ethic, humanity, and communication skills. All which are very important in becoming a successful physician.

Is there an interview process in the application process to podiatry school that looks at "passion, work ethic, humanity, and communications skills"? The school that my friends went to did require an interview when they went. Lower extremity assumes that pods deal with more than foot and ankle. Now I know this varies state to state, but most states limit their scope to foot and ankle. In my area, there are lots of orthos that do more of the surgeries than the pods.

 

[doclm]

Is there an interview process in the application process to podiatry school that looks at "passion, work ethic, humanity, and communications skills"? The school that my friends went to did require an interview when they went. Lower extremity assumes that pods deal with more than foot and ankle. Now I know this varies state to state, but most states limit their scope to foot and ankle. In my area, there are lots of orthos that do more of the surgeries than the pods.

I know that you currently see this, however I believe it will be different in the future when many of us DPM students get out with surgical residencies. Many of the Orthopods that are doing foot and ankle surgeries will be retired. There are tons of foot and ankle fellowships each year that are left unfilled. Also, with all of these baby boomers getting older and diabetes at a all time high. There is and will be a huge demand for Podiatrist to do wound care and surgery. With the amazing research coming out about how Podiatrists significantly reduce amputations and increase patients quality of life with diabetes, I would not be surprised to see more and more patients being referred to PODs.

 

[jonwill]

i do not understand how you make the jump that i would not be able to work with podiatrists.. in reality, i do work with pods everyday. the difference is in the real world they are not referred to as physicians or having went to medical school. They are podiatrists that went to pod school who are qualified to work on feet and some ankle problems. You guys took offense to my simple correction of terminology. i already stated that i agree they have an important and integral part in medical care.

i was merely disagreeing with what the OP originally said, then i disagreed to the person who stated that the training of pods are eqivalent to MDs/DOs, and then i disagreed to the person who stated that cardiologists training is the same has pods. All these things are false. I have not stated anything untrue and I have not attacked anyone. Many people have attacked me and even made up aliases with false identities, but this these are natural reactions for when you cannot use facts to disprove what someone says. I do not need to make personal attacks because I can use facts.

I feel sorry for the few that feel they have to fall back to inflammatory remarks and cannot argue in a civil fashion. You cannot carry a chip on your shoulder forever. This, my friend, will be what sets you back in the real world. Good luck to all!

Again, your opinion is your opinion. But, what you refuse to answer to is the simple fact that hospitals, insurance, gov, etc refer to pods as physicians. You claim that if podiatrists say they are physicians at a hospital, "people will laugh at them". I'm telling you that I go to various hospitals everyday and this IS NOT THE CASE. I will be going to programs such as U of F, UT San Antonio, Detroit Medical Center, etc where pods are considered physicians. How do you explain this? Your opinion is nice (that is the point of these forums) but why won't you answer to the facts?

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Is there an interview process in the application process to podiatry school that looks at "passion, work ethic, humanity, and communications skills"? The school that my friends went to did require an interview when they went. Lower extremity assumes that pods deal with more than foot and ankle. Now I know this varies state to state, but most states limit their scope to foot and ankle. In my area, there are lots of orthos that do more of the surgeries than the pods.

Bill, yes there is an interview, though I will say some schools I interviewed at were busy bragging about the money they not asking you about your goals and passion.

Others have discussed the change in orthpod's preference to stay away from the foot and ankle. In my opinion this is changing b/c there is less money in ankles than the knee or hip. And we all know money makes the world go round.

 

[billclinton]

Again, your opinion is your opinion. But, what you refuse to answer to is the simple fact that hospitals, insurance, gov, etc refer to pods as physicians. You claim that if podiatrists say they are physicians at a hospital, "people will laugh at them". I'm telling you that I go to various hospitals everyday and this IS NOT THE CASE. I will be going to programs such as U of F, UT San Antonio, Detroit Medical Center, etc where pods are considered physicians. How do you explain this? Your opinion is nice (that is the point of these forums) but why won't you answer to the facts?

The reason I have not said anything about this is because I do not believe just because chiropractors, podiatrists, optometrists, dentists may bill insurance companies categorized as "physicians", that this does not mean they are actually physicians in a the true sense of the word. When I say this, I do not mean it as a bash on these professions. I now believe you guys thought I was attacking the profession when I said this. My understanding is that the term physician is reserved for MD/DO who attend MD/DO medical school... just a mere term- I am not talking about value of a particular profession here. I do not feel that I am an oddity in thinking this as threads and polls have shown.

I do not believe it is right to use wording to mislead the public into thinking that podiatrists have a MD/DO by saying that they went to medical school. I guarentee that if you tell some joe schmoe you went to medical school he will assume you have a MD. Most health professionals will understand the difference, but I am not so sure about the general public.

 

[krabmas]

Is there an interview process in the application process to podiatry school that looks at "passion, work ethic, humanity, and communications skills"? The school that my friends went to did require an interview when they went. Lower extremity assumes that pods deal with more than foot and ankle. Now I know this varies state to state, but most states limit their scope to foot and ankle. In my area, there are lots of orthos that do more of the surgeries than the pods.

IN your "area" are pods allowed hospital privlages? Some hospitals still restrict this.

In your "area" are there lots of pods? As in, is your "area" near a pod school? Typically only areas near pod schools are overwellmed with pods. If there are not many pods in the area who do you think would do the foot and ankle cases? I would guess Orthos too.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

The reason I have not said anything about this is because I do not believe just because chiropractors, podiatrists, optometrists, dentists may bill insurance companies categorized as "physicians", that this does not mean they are actually physicians in a the true sense of the word. When I say this, I do not mean it as a bash on these professions. I now believe you guys thought I was attacking the profession when I said this. My understanding is that the term physician is reserved for MD/DO who attend MD/DO medical school... just a mere term- I am not talking about value of a particular profession here. I do not feel that I am an oddity in thinking this as threads and polls have shown.

I do not believe it is right to use wording to mislead the public into thinking that podiatrists have a MD/DO by saying that they went to medical school. I guarantee you if you tell joe schmoe you went to medical school he will think you have MD. Most health professionals will understand the difference, but I am not so sure about the general public.

One I thought I'd search the internet for the definition of physician since this is your catching point. This is the first website I found:

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/physician

NOUN:

A person licensed to practice medicine; a medical doctor.
A person who practices general medicine as distinct from surgery.
A person who heals or exerts a healing influence.

The word origin is Old French; that means that your definition of a physician has been changed since the words origin. Since osteopathy started in the 1800s, someone had to change the definition to include them. Why is it you refuse to change your definition to adapt to the changing face of medicine?

Here’s another site’s definition and they don’t recognize DOs as physicians

http://www.allwords.com/query.php?SearchType=3&Keyword=Physician&goquery=Find+it!&Language=ENG


physician
noun
1. In the UK: a registered medical practitioner who specializes in medical as opposed to surgical treatment of diseases and disorders.
Thesaurus: doctor, practitioner, doctor of medicine, medic, resident, intern (US), healer, MD.
2. In other parts of the world: anyone who is legally qualified to practice medicine

 

[billclinton]

One I thought I'd search the internet for the definition of physician since this is your catching point. This is the first website I found:

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/physician

NOUN:

A person licensed to practice medicine; a medical doctor.
A person who practices general medicine as distinct from surgery.
A person who heals or exerts a healing influence.

The word origin is Old French; that means that your definition of a physician has been changed since the words origin. Since osteopathy started in the 1800s, someone had to change the definition to include them. Why is it you refuse to change your definition to adapt to the changing face of medicine?

Here’s another site’s definition and they don’t recognize DOs as physicians

http://www.allwords.com/query.php?SearchType=3&Keyword=Physician&goquery=Find+it!&Language=ENG


physician
noun
1. In the UK: a registered medical practitioner who specializes in medical as opposed to surgical treatment of diseases and disorders.
Thesaurus: doctor, practitioner, doctor of medicine, medic, resident, intern (US), healer, MD.
2. In other parts of the world: anyone who is legally qualified to practice medicine

Main Entry: phy·si·cian
Pronunciation: f&-'zish-&n
Function: noun
: a skilled health-care professional trained and licensed to practice medicine; specifically : a doctor of medicine or osteopathy

Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.


The reason why DOs were included is because DOs are the exact same as MDs. Same training (i.e. same classes, same clinicals, they can sit for the same boards that MDs sit for). They can also apply to the same residencies, which means they can do the exact same jobs with no limitations. A word is a word.

To the poster above who asked what pods do in my area.... there are not a lot of pods in my area (5 or 6). Most extensive foot and ankle surgeries are referred to orthos (perhaps MDs favor their own?). I do know that local family practice docs that refer their diabetic and elderly patients almost exclusively to pods when problems come up that do not require extensive surgery. I understand from reading some posts, that this is changing and pods are doing more surgeries. Who knows, maybe in the future pods will be able to sit for the same boards and participate in MD/DO residencies.... 😕

 

[jonwill]

The reason I have not said anything about this is because I do not believe just because chiropractors, podiatrists, optometrists, dentists may bill insurance companies categorized as "physicians", that this does not mean they are actually physicians in a the true sense of the word. When I say this, I do not mean it as a bash on these professions. I now believe you guys thought I was attacking the profession when I said this. My understanding is that the term physician is reserved for MD/DO who attend MD/DO medical school... just a mere term- I am not talking about value of a particular profession here. I do not feel that I am an oddity in thinking this as threads and polls have shown.

I do not believe it is right to use wording to mislead the public into thinking that podiatrists have a MD/DO by saying that they went to medical school. I guarentee that if you tell some joe schmoe you went to medical school he will assume you have a MD. Most health professionals will understand the difference, but I am not so sure about the general public.

That makes sense. I can respect that. Good luck to you.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Main Entry: phy•si•cian
Pronunciation: f&-'zish-&n
Function: noun
: a skilled health-care professional trained and licensed to practice medicine; specifically : a doctor of medicine or osteopathy

Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.


The reason why DOs were included is because DOs are the exact same as MDs. Same training (i.e. same classes, same clinicals, they can sit for the same boards that MDs sit for). They can also apply to the same residencies, which means they can do the exact same jobs with no limitations. A word is a word.

To the poster above who asked what pods do in my area.... there are not a lot of pods in my area (5 or 6). Most extensive foot and ankle surgeries are referred to orthos (perhaps MDs favor their own?). I do know that local family practice docs that refer their diabetic and elderly patients almost exclusively to pods when problems come up that do not require extensive surgery. I understand from reading some posts, that this is changing and pods are doing more surgeries. Who knows, maybe in the future pods will be able to sit for the same boards and participate in MD/DO residencies.... 😕

I don't think that anyone wants to sit for a MD/DO board. We just don't want to be treated little a second class citizen. MDs and DOs don't take the "same classes." The basic science classes are the same w/ all 3 (MD/DO/DPM). DOs take a holistic approach. You would never find OMM in an allopathic school. The rotations that occur in the 3rd and 4th year are basically the same w/ DO/MD, but as I have said over and over DPM's do the same rotations. Here is an example of

Region's Hospital in St Paul

PGY-1 Curriculum
Pathology: 2 weeks
Radiology: 2 weeks
Internal Medicine: 1 month
General Surgery: 1 month
Orthopedic Surgery: 1 month
Foot and Ankle Orthopedics: on-going
Podiatry: 8 months

PGY-2 Curriculum
Orthopedic Surgery: 1 month
Foot and Ankle Orthopedics: on-going
Vascular Surgery: 2 weeks
Plastic Surgery: 1 month
Emergency Medicine: 1 month
Occupational Medicine: 2 weeks
Podiatry: 8 months

PGY-3 Curriculum
Anesthesia: 2 weeks
Podiatry: 50 weeks
Foot and Ankle Orthopedics: on-going

There are a lot of areas outside of podiatry that we are educated in.

 

[krabmas]

Main Entry: phy·si·cian
Pronunciation: f&-'zish-&n
Function: noun
: a skilled health-care professional trained and licensed to practice medicine; specifically : a doctor of medicine or osteopathy

Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.


The reason why DOs were included is because DOs are the exact same as MDs. Same training (i.e. same classes, same clinicals, they can sit for the same boards that MDs sit for). They can also apply to the same residencies, which means they can do the exact same jobs with no limitations. A word is a word.

To the poster above who asked what pods do in my area.... there are not a lot of pods in my area (5 or 6). Most extensive foot and ankle surgeries are referred to orthos (perhaps MDs favor their own?). I do know that local family practice docs that refer their diabetic and elderly patients almost exclusively to pods when problems come up that do not require extensive surgery. I understand from reading some posts, that this is changing and pods are doing more surgeries. Who knows, maybe in the future pods will be able to sit for the same boards and participate in MD/DO residencies.... 😕

You are correct that the older pods do not do as much surgery so it would make sense that the extensive foot surgeries would be referred to an ortho if there is no one else qualified to do it.

What would be the point of pod grads doing MD/DO residencies? THen we would not be pods.

MDs refer to whom is best for their patient. Again, if the pods are old school and cannot do surgery - then it would make sense for the MD to refer to the next best qualified.

In addition, if the orthos are foot and ankle orthos then it still makes sense to refer to them if the pods cannot do surgery.

But, more and more pods are the ones hired in ortho practices to be the foot and ankle guys.

 

[doclm]

Main Entry: phy·si·cian
Pronunciation: f&-'zish-&n
Function: noun
: a skilled health-care professional trained and licensed to practice medicine; specifically : a doctor of medicine or osteopathy

Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.


The reason why DOs were included is because DOs are the exact same as MDs. Same training (i.e. same classes, same clinicals, they can sit for the same boards that MDs sit for). They can also apply to the same residencies, which means they can do the exact same jobs with no limitations. A word is a word.

To the poster above who asked what pods do in my area.... there are not a lot of pods in my area (5 or 6). Most extensive foot and ankle surgeries are referred to orthos (perhaps MDs favor their own?). I do know that local family practice docs that refer their diabetic and elderly patients almost exclusively to pods when problems come up that do not require extensive surgery. I understand from reading some posts, that this is changing and pods are doing more surgeries. Who knows, maybe in the future pods will be able to sit for the same boards and participate in MD/DO residencies.... 😕

Why is it so hard for you to call DPM's physicains? Would you call DPM a Doctor?

I really don't care what your little restricted definition says, do you (in your mind) not consider Podiatrist a physician in any form? Please give me your honest opinion of what a physicain is (thinking for yourself) without having to refer to websters dictionary.

 

[scpod]

Who knows, maybe in the future pods will be able to sit for the same boards and participate in MD/DO residencies.... 😕

These dictionary definitions are stupider than hell. Who f'n cares what Webster says? Was he the god of language? Did he decree the undesputable meanings of all words?

Plus, all DO's and MD's don't participate in the same residencies. Individual residencies are focused on the part (or parts) or aspects of the body that the individual wants to treat.

Here are the facts:

MD's spend two years in basic sciences, then two years in clinical work. Next, they go throug a match process and do several years of residency-- maybe a fellowship afterwards. They practice medicine and surgery and prescribe drugs based on what they learned in their training.

DO's spend two years in basic sciences, then two years in clinical work. Next, they go throug a match process and do several years of residency-- maybe a fellowship afterwards. They practice medicine and surgery and prescribe drugs based on what they learned in their training.

DPM's spend two years in basic sciences, then two years in clinical work. Next, they go throug a match process and do several years of residency-- maybe a fellowship afterwards. They practice medicine and surgery and prescribe drugs based on what they learned in their training.

No other health professionals do things that way. That is the "medical" model. Dentists don't; Optometrists don't; PA's don't; ND's don't; RN's don't; EMT's don't; PharmD's don't; PhD's don't. No one does except those three.

Podiatrists study the entire body because they need to know about the entire body. Guess what? Cardiologists actually study the feet and legs too, but they don't have the skills to repair an achilles rupture. Still, I'd rather have them work on my feet than I would a Dentist.

They call it podiatric "medicine" because podiatrists practice "medicine". Why wouldn't you want to call them a podiatric "physician".

 

[billclinton]

Why is it so hard for you to call DPM's physicains? Would you call DPM a Doctor?

I really don't care what your little restricted definition says, do you (in your mind) not consider Podiatrist a physician in any form? Please give me your honest opinion of what a physicain is (thinking for yourself) without having to refer to websters dictionary.

yes, podiatrists are doctors. if my son had a problem with his foot or ankle (even requiring surgery) i would have no problems sending him to a podiatrist who had successfully completed the residency/fellowship in this area.

As i have said before, i believe most people do not consider podiatrists physicians in the true sense of the word because they do not have the same schooling as MDs/DOs.... not medical school. This may be a stupid technicality, but if you were to ask people this, I believe this is what they would tell you. To me (and i believe most people), a physician is a person who has a MD/DO and has been trained to treat the whole body, even though they may specialize in a smaller area.

Remember, I believe these are small differences that does not necessarily speak about the quality of care or competence one brings to the healthcare field.

 

[billclinton]

I don't think that anyone wants to sit for a MD/DO board. We just don't want to be treated little a second class citizen. MDs and DOs don't take the "same classes." The basic science classes are the same w/ all 3 (MD/DO/DPM). DOs take a holistic approach. You would never find OMM in an allopathic school. The rotations that occur in the 3rd and 4th year are basically the same w/ DO/MD, but as I have said over and over DPM's do the same rotations. Here is an example of

Region's Hospital in St Paul

PGY-1 Curriculum
Pathology: 2 weeks
Radiology: 2 weeks
Internal Medicine: 1 month
General Surgery: 1 month
Orthopedic Surgery: 1 month
Foot and Ankle Orthopedics: on-going
Podiatry: 8 months

PGY-2 Curriculum
Orthopedic Surgery: 1 month
Foot and Ankle Orthopedics: on-going
Vascular Surgery: 2 weeks
Plastic Surgery: 1 month
Emergency Medicine: 1 month
Occupational Medicine: 2 weeks
Podiatry: 8 months

PGY-3 Curriculum
Anesthesia: 2 weeks
Podiatry: 50 weeks
Foot and Ankle Orthopedics: on-going

There are a lot of areas outside of podiatry that we are educated in.

These are very impressive credentials. I never meant to say that they aren't. However, you will find in other threads (one of the first or second threads I posted in) that pod students are not held to the same requirements in these clinicals as the MD/DO students. They are not on call as much, they do not take the same shelf exams at the conclusion of clinical rotation. There are a handful of differences and these make sense because why should you be required to know the same things as a MD/DO when you are specializing in the foot & ankle?

 

[billclinton]

These dictionary definitions are stupider than hell. Who f'n cares what Webster says? Was he the god of language? Did he decree the undesputable meanings of all words?

Plus, all DO's and MD's don't participate in the same residencies. Individual residencies are focused on the part (or parts) or aspects of the body that the individual wants to treat.

Here are the facts:

MD's spend two years in basic sciences, then two years in clinical work. Next, they go throug a match process and do several years of residency-- maybe a fellowship afterwards. They practice medicine and surgery and prescribe drugs based on what they learned in their training.

DO's spend two years in basic sciences, then two years in clinical work. Next, they go throug a match process and do several years of residency-- maybe a fellowship afterwards. They practice medicine and surgery and prescribe drugs based on what they learned in their training.

DPM's spend two years in basic sciences, then two years in clinical work. Next, they go throug a match process and do several years of residency-- maybe a fellowship afterwards. They practice medicine and surgery and prescribe drugs based on what they learned in their training.

No other health professionals do things that way. That is the "medical" model. Dentists don't; Optometrists don't; PA's don't; ND's don't; RN's don't; EMT's don't; PharmD's don't; PhD's don't. No one does except those three.

Podiatrists study the entire body because they need to know about the entire body. Guess what? Cardiologists actually study the feet and legs too, but they don't have the skills to repair an achilles rupture. Still, I'd rather have them work on my feet than I would a Dentist.

They call it podiatric "medicine" because podiatrists practice "medicine". Why wouldn't you want to call them a podiatric "physician".

You do practice (podiatric) medicine. But as I and others have stated in other threads, the training is not the same. I will agree that the first 2 years are pretty similar, however you do not sit for the same boards (Step1-3) that MD/DO students sit for because you are not required to have the knowledge base that MD/DO are (why would you?). You do have clinical rotations, but believe it or not, the expectations for MD/DO students are higher in some of their rotations. However, I am sure you are held to higher expectations in your foot and ankle rotation and in ortho rotation (or at least the same as MD/DO students).

The term "Physician" implies extensive training in the aspects of health of the entire body. The aim of podiatric curriculum is to build doctors who are competent in treating ankle and foot. The aim of the medical school curriculum is to build competent doctors who are able to treat ailments of the entire body, before they specialize. This is a very nit-picky term I know. But,

I believe most people still consider physicians to refer to those who have completed medical (MD/DO) school. There are a good number of MD/DOs out there who prefer to be called a physician and will be offended if you call someone else other than a MD/DO a physician. I know this sounds ******ed... and it probably is.

 

[billclinton]

Why is it so hard for you to call DPM's physicains? Would you call DPM a Doctor?

I really don't care what your little restricted definition says, do you (in your mind) not consider Podiatrist a physician in any form? Please give me your honest opinion of what a physicain is (thinking for yourself) without having to refer to websters dictionary.

physician and doctor are 2 different terms. A doctor is someone who has earned a very high academic degree. As i said, of course i would call a podiatrist a doctor (of podiatric medicine).

 

[capo]

What are we all 2 years old here? My rattle is BIGGER than YOUR rattle!

Meanwhile, as we play this game of semantics, our patients read this and laugh -- AT US! Who cares what we are called? Let's end this nonsense and talk about improving the PROFESSION -- not about adding letters, credentials, after the names or whatever. Isn't this going a bit too far? Man, sober up people.

You're starting to sound like a bunch of drunks at a bar, analysing a game that's already been played but they still have to replay it -- til one of them passes out drunk and falls off the bar stool.

 

[billclinton]

Please do think I am making this up to be inflammatory. Do some google searches. For example, if you read through this wikipedia, you will find that when they refer to medical school and physician they are specifically referring to MD/DOs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physician

 

[billclinton]

What are we all 2 years old here? My rattle is BIGGER than YOUR rattle!

Meanwhile, as we play this game of semantics, our patients read this and laugh -- AT US! Who cares what we are called? Let's end this nonsense and talk about improving the PROFESSION -- not about adding letters, credentials, after the names or whatever. Isn't this going a bit too far? Man, sober up people.

You're starting to sound like a bunch of drunks at a bar, analysing a game that's already been played but they still have to replay it -- til one of them passes out drunk and falls off the bar stool.

i am only repeating things because i am being asked the same old questions. But I agree that it is ******ed. This is just a means of wasting time. But you guys really made me question why I think what I think.

I think this can be applied to patient care though. It is important that patients can distinguish between the different professions. This is why the difference in terminology exists.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Please do think I am making this up to be inflammatory. Do some google searches. For example, if you read through this wikipedia, you will find that when they refer to medical school and physician they are specifically referring to MD/DOs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physician

That says nothing about MD/DO programs. It just says someone who goes to a medical school. It does not say a allopathic medical school or osteopathic medical school. It says they take boards, and the only boards they list are USMLE, so COMLEX is out I guess. Pod's take boards also. It says a physician goes through a residency.

To me, the only thing I got out of that was you're just stubborn and you read what you want. I'm okay w/ the definition is the rest of the world where only internal med docs are physicians.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Here the definition of medical school on wikipdeia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_school

A medical school, or faculty of medicine, is a tertiary educational institution, or part of such an institution, which is involved in the education of future medical practitioners

I don't know how pod schools are eliminated?

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Here's medical education

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_education

Medical education is education related to the practice of being a medical practitioner, either the initial training to become a doctor or further training thereafter.

Medical education and training varies considerably across the world. Various teaching methodologies have been utilized in medical education, which is an active area of educational research.

Here are the classes they list that are part of a medical education

Generally, initial training is taken at medical school. Traditionally initial medical education is divided between pre-clinical and clinical studies. The former consisting of the basic sciences such as anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, pharmacology, pathology. The latter consists of teaching in the various areas of clinical medicine such as internal medicine, pediatrics, obstetrics and gynecology, psychiatry, surgery. Increasingly, however, medical programs are using systems-based curricula in which learning is integrated, and several institutions do this using problem-based learning models.

Do any other pod students think this sounds just like the same curriculum at there college? Come Bill if you are going to send me to a website for a definition make sure it supports your point and not mine. I'm not giving up a debate to weak stuff like this. What's next are you going to quote you Aunt Bunny who thinks he podiatrist is not a doctor? If you had something concrete to stand on, I would agree to disagree but you have no leg to stand on.

 

[billclinton]

Here's medical education

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_education

Medical education is education related to the practice of being a medical practitioner, either the initial training to become a doctor or further training thereafter.

Medical education and training varies considerably across the world. Various teaching methodologies have been utilized in medical education, which is an active area of educational research.

Here are the classes they list that are part of a medical education

Generally, initial training is taken at medical school. Traditionally initial medical education is divided between pre-clinical and clinical studies. The former consisting of the basic sciences such as anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, pharmacology, pathology. The latter consists of teaching in the various areas of clinical medicine such as internal medicine, pediatrics, obstetrics and gynecology, psychiatry, surgery. Increasingly, however, medical programs are using systems-based curricula in which learning is integrated, and several institutions do this using problem-based learning models.

Do any other pod students think this sounds just like the same curriculum at there college? Come Bill if you are going to send me to a website for a definition make sure it supports your point and not mine. I'm not giving up a debate to weak stuff like this. What's next are you going to quote you Aunt Bunny who thinks he podiatrist is not a doctor? If you had something concrete to stand on, I would agree to disagree but you have no leg to stand on.

First of all, I will repeat myself again. Podiatrists are doctors (refer to above posts for this definition). Second of all, I still am not degrading the profession.
No need to take offense or become angry.

I didnt send you all the links, but that was the main one.
If you click on "medical school" you will get:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_school
"A medical school, or faculty of medicine, is a tertiary educational institution, or part of such an institution, which is involved in the education of future medical practitioners (medical doctors)."

"A person accepted into a medical school and undertaking an educational program in medicine towards becoming a medical doctor is referred to as a medical student. Medical students are generally considered to be at the earliest stage of the medical career pathway."

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Medical_doctor&redirect=no
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podiatrist
"Like regular Medical School this training [in podiatry school] follows their college degree. The first four years of Podiatric Medical School are similar to training that traditional, medical (MD) and osteopathic (DO), physicians receive, but with more emphasis on foot and ankle problems and slightly less emphasis on other topics such as pathology and neonatology."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_education_in_the_United_States
"Medical education in the United States includes educational activities involved in the education and training of medical doctors in the United States, from entry-level training through to continuing education of qualified specialists."

"medical school is most often a four year institution with the purpose of educating doctors in the fields of so-called allopathic medicine (conventional medicine) or osteopathic medicine."

---------------------------------------------------------------
No where under "Medical School" does it mention podiatric medicine. I know what you are going to say regarding the link about podiatrists... they use the term "podiatric physician". Which perhaps you can take to be correct. However keep in mind that they take this term from the AACPM who wishes to make the public think their training is the same as MD/DO, which it is not. I will agree that it is very good training appropiate for healthcare professionals who treat ailments of the foot and ankle. This is where I see the AACPM may be trying to deceive the public and where I have a problem. You may also say I am on crack... but i am not the only one.


If you read these articles you will note that physician in the traditional sense refers to MD/DO for the reason I have already stated above and that medical school traditionally refers to allopathic/osteopathic school . However, I will admit that it is not blatantly clear.

Again, I am only trying to point out a general concensus. This usage of physician and medical school is almost like an unwritten rule. Whether you grasp what I am saying here or some time in the future... it doesn't matter. But, hopefully you are aware of some people's (a great many's) views... whether they are technically correct or not. You may have a boss one day (i.e. in residency or fellowship) who is a MD/DO... it might be wise to be careful how you phrase things. People make first impressions on the most ******ed of reasons.

 

[SuperFly123]

Wow, this thread has gotten out of control. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was degrading podiatrists. They are very valued and respected members of the healthcare team, although no one disputes the differences in admissions standards between MD schools, DO schools, and DPM schools.

We're arguing about semantics and terminology. Let's just agree to disagree. Some people think podiatrists go to podiatry medical school and some think they go to medical school. Big deal. I was churlish in my earlier posts regarding such subtle differences. The lay person doesn't think of podiatrists when one says "medical school" - accept that as fact, but who cares. Peoples opinions will change as they did regarding DOs.

There are definite differences between medical school and podiatry medical school. Podiatrists know the basic jist of the human body (they are obviously experts on the foot) but I wouldn't see one for a heart murmur. Likewise, I would not see a cardiologist for a foot problem. Whether or not they are "physicians" or "doctors" is also a matter of terminology. I would consider podiatrists "podiatric physicians" but thats just me. Disagree if you'd like. Let's give it a rest.

The main point is that podiatrists are respected by most and have an important role in society.

 

[billclinton]

Wow, this thread has gotten out of control. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was degrading podiatrists. They are very valued and respected members of the healthcare team, although no one disputes the differences in admissions standards between MD schools, DO schools, and DPM schools.

We're arguing about semantics and terminology. Let's just agree to disagree. Some people think podiatrists go to podiatry medical school and some think they go to medical school. Big deal. I was churlish in my earlier posts regarding such subtle differences. The lay person doesn't think of podiatrists when one says "medical school" - accept that as fact, but who cares. Peoples opinions will change as they did regarding DOs.

There are definite differences between medical school and podiatry medical school. Podiatrists know the basic jist of the human body (they are obviously experts on the foot) but I wouldn't see one for a heart murmur. Likewise, I would not see a cardiologist for a foot problem. Whether or not they are "physicians" or "doctors" is also a matter of terminology. I would consider podiatrists "podiatric physicians" but thats just me. Disagree if you'd like. Let's give it a rest.

The main point is that podiatrists are respected by most and have an important role in society.

agreed 👍 i would definately not see cardiologist for foot problem (and would of course see a podiatrist).

 

[IlizaRob]

Wow, this thread has gotten out of control. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was degrading podiatrists. They are very valued and respected members of the healthcare team, although no one disputes the differences in admissions standards between MD schools, DO schools, and DPM schools.

We're arguing about semantics and terminology. Let's just agree to disagree. Some people think podiatrists go to podiatry medical school and some think they go to medical school. Big deal. I was churlish in my earlier posts regarding such subtle differences. The lay person doesn't think of podiatrists when one says "medical school" - accept that as fact, but who cares. Peoples opinions will change as they did regarding DOs.

There are definite differences between medical school and podiatry medical school. Podiatrists know the basic jist of the human body (they are obviously experts on the foot) but I wouldn't see one for a heart murmur. Likewise, I would not see a cardiologist for a foot problem. Whether or not they are "physicians" or "doctors" is also a matter of terminology. I would consider podiatrists "podiatric physicians" but thats just me. Disagree if you'd like. Let's give it a rest.

The main point is that podiatrists are respected by most and have an important role in society.

I have no problem drinking to that.

 

[N4658H]

Please do think I am making this up to be inflammatory. Do some google searches. For example, if you read through this wikipedia, you will find that when they refer to medical school and physician they are specifically referring to MD/DOs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physician

I see that you like to reference citations and dictionaries without any much of your own logical input. You are stuck inside the box without being open to new ideas or change. These are very poor traits for a physician. A doctor’s general education must be grounded in text books; however physicians and their ideas cannot be chained to books and dictionaries while resisting new information relevant in the real world. Do you seriously let internet dictionaries define you as a professional? You mentioned being in healthcare for 15 years, so I find many of your comments to be absurd.

 

[billclinton]

I see that you like to reference citations and dictionaries without any much of your own logical input. You are stuck inside the box without being open to new ideas or change. These are very poor traits for a physician. A doctor’s general education must be grounded in text books; however physicians and their ideas cannot be chained to books and dictionaries while resisting new information relevant in the real world. Do you seriously let internet dictionaries define you as a professional? You mentioned being in healthcare for 15 years, so I find many of your comments to be absurd.

Bring on the personal attacks! Afterall, when someone lacks the intellect to back up their position with facts, this is what they do! It's so fun and easy to do!

Perhaps, if you were to develop your reading skills you would see that I began by posting my position along with an explanation. People did not believe me. So, you know what... I backed up from multiple sources. Firstly, from opinions of other healthcare professionals on these forums. I then backed it up from a very popular public source of information (that would represent a wider viewpoint). My friend, I do not think I should really have to explain this to you... should I?

Seriously, it doesn't matter who you are in these forums. To say you are a top doc at XX hospital means nothing. My opinion alone means nothing. This is why I validate my thoughts from various sources. Get a clue, man!

 

[doclm]

Bring on the personal attacks! Afterall, when someone lacks the intellect to back up their position with facts, this is what they do! It's so fun and easy to do!

Perhaps, if you were to develop your reading skills you would see that I began by posting my position along with an explanation. People did not believe me. So, you know what... I backed up from multiple sources. Firstly, from opinions of other healthcare professionals on these forums. I then backed it up from a very popular public source of information (that would represent a wider viewpoint). My friend, I do not think I should really have to explain this to you... should I?

Seriously, it doesn't matter who you are in these forums. To say you are a top doc at XX hospital means nothing. My opinion alone means nothing. This is why I validate my thoughts from various sources. Get a clue, man!

Wow,

You are seriously trying to win this thread. Always trying to be right is the type of $h!t I hate to see in physicians. You are saying that you backed everything up with logic? And you were right all along?

"If you were to tell anyone in a hospital that you, as a podiatrist, is a physician , they would laugh at you."
"Heck, you tell the public this, they will laugh at you."

"Claiming that you are a physician would be like a high school track star claiming they're a world class athelete."

"comparing a pod to a cardiologist is like comparing a plumber to a vascular surgeon, lol."

"you will find that you are not considered to be physicians by the medical community nor are you considered to be physicians by the general public. If you actually tell someone this, you will be laughed at. I thought I would try and save you the embarrassment."

"to compare yourself to a cardiologist would be like a high school student body president saying he has the same qualifications of the president of the united states."

"i was merely disagreeing with what the OP originally said, then i disagreed to the person who stated that the training of pods are eqivalent to MDs/DOs, and then i disagreed to the person who stated that cardiologists training is the same has pods. All these things are false. I have not stated anything untrue and I have not attacked anyone." "I do not need to make personal attacks because I can use facts."


Trust me, working two years within an allopathic dominating medical center, I have came across a few people like this. They mess up something and then try to cover it up with tons of "intellect" (bull$h!T) without once mentioning that they were EVER wrong about something they did. Just to save you the embarrassment, these types of people don't do well as "physicians".

 

[JohnfootDr]

Maybe I missed something here....

I don't see where MD or DO's graduate with a Degree in Cardiology, Neurosurgery, Cardiothoracic Surgery, etc. etc.

They graduate with a General Medical Degree.

In some states (most, if I recall properly) they can go into practice as a General Practitioner after a 1 year internship.

To become a Cardiologist, Orthopedic Surgeon, etc. they need to get advanced post graduate training.

Podiatry is the same way..you need 1 year post graduate to practice. You need 2-3 years to do surgery.

My MCAT scores were 31 (mid '90s) and 30 (1999 when I finally got off my ass to apply to school). My Undergraduate grades sucked (I worked 50+ hours while going to school). My Graduate Course load had a 3.8 (out of 4.0) GPA. I took both MCATs cold (no studying). As the Podiatry resident at the hospital I work for, I am considered a Resident Physician and Surgeon. I work with Family Practice Residents all the time. I have personally treated (surgically and non-surgically) family members of multiple physician specialties. I had an opportunity to go to Medical School in Poland (an MD family Friend's Uncle was the director of the university there...if I didn't have a wife and pair of kids, I would have jumped at the chance.). I decided to apply to Pod School here in the states as it is a fairly family friendly program (and career).

AFARR

 

[krabmas]

Please do think I am making this up to be inflammatory. Do some google searches. For example, if you read through this wikipedia, you will find that when they refer to medical school and physician they are specifically referring to MD/DOs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physician

Do you even know what wikipedia is? Anyone can go on there and change stuff... it is usually correct but it is not the bible. I trust People magazine more than wikipedia.

 

[WildcatDMD]

Hmm.. Maybe I should rally my troops back in the dental forums to have our forums moved under medical students as well. I am going to the Boston University School of Dental Medicine, after all. And will be getting a Doctor of Dental Medicine degree. (and by the way, some dentists also have hospital priviledges at the hospital in which they have completed their general practice residency). 😉 It is just semantics, but no I did not go to medical school, I go to dental school. If I wanted to go to medical school, I certainly could have. I go to a school of dental medicine, just as podiatrists go to a school of podiatric medicine.

I am going to be a Dentist. I am proud of that. Could we start legislation to change our title to Dental Physician or Oral Physician? Sure. Am I a medical specialist of the oral cavity? yes. Can I prescribe medicine? Yes. Can I perform surgery? Yes. But why not be proud of the profession to which you have devoted your life and the origins and title of that profession? Calling yourselves by the broad term physicians, in my opinion just makes me think you are not proud of your title of Podiatrist.