Thinking about Queensland Uni for Medschool over Carribean

[greencrescent]

Hi Guys,

I am a US student who is thinking between Caribbean SGU medschool or Queensland Uni in Australia.

I have heard it's better to go to England or Australia for medschool rather than Caribbean, I have no idea why that is, but I was wondering what are your guys thoughts on this process?

I eventually would like to practice back home in the States, so would going to Australia's Queensland Uni for Medschool hurt my chances?

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[omniatlas]

Wouldn't it be better to go to a medical school in the US if you would like to practice in the US?

UQ has the New Orleans program -- however its not as established (it only started 2 years ago) as some other ones out there, and so might not have the track record and/or guarantee you need.

 

[marble30]

The way I see it:

Caribbean/SGU
Pros:
- US rotations
- more focused USMLE prep
- lower tuition costs

Cons:
- you're pretty much stuck to the US for residency
- so-called "stigma" - note: I put that in quotations for a reason.
- higher fail-out rate

Australia/UQ
Pros:
- larger possibility of getting residency in other countries
- low fail-out rate
- university has more of an international reputation

Cons:
- harder to get US clinical experience (unless you're in the Oschner program)
- not much help with USMLE prep
- high tuition costs

Also, I would think class sizes at SGU and UQ would be about the same considering how many students UQ accepted this year.

[EDIT: I've actually complied a more thorough list of pros and cons here.]

 

[greencrescent]

Wouldn't it be better to go to a medical school in the US if you would like to practice in the US?

Grades too low, due to my screw ups and lack of commitment as an undergrand when I was younger. I don't want to spend 1.5-2 years of my time and money repeating my pre-meds, possibly an SMP or masters than eventually getting into a US Medschool

My MCAT is only 31T so that's not going to impress any US Medschool with a low gpa.

I have heard from couple of my Doctor friends that attending a medschool in England or Australia would be a better choice, than going to Carrib. So that's why I was wondering about Queensland Uni.

So far it looks like I am going to most likely just apply to Carrib, I don't see the pro's for Australia medschool really out weighing much.

 

[greencrescent]

The way I see it:

Caribbean/SGU
Pros:
- US rotations
- more focused USMLE prep
- lower tuition costs

Cons:
- you're pretty much stuck to the US for residency
- so-called "stigma" - note: I put that in quotations for a reason.
- higher fail-out rate

Australia/UQ
Pros:
- larger possibility of getting residency in other countries
- low fail-out rate
- university has more of an international reputation

Cons:
- harder to get US clinical experience (unless you're in the Oschner program)
- not much help with USMLE prep
- high tuition costs

Also, I would think class sizes at SGU and UQ would be about the same considering how many students UQ accepted this year.

This Helps a lot, Thanks

 

[pitman]

Good concise comparison, marble. I'm not sure about cost being a 'con' for UQ though (in a comparison with SGU at least) -- it is certainly crazy high at UQ (was only $36k per year when I was there, but now it's $50-52k), but that's essentially the same as St. George's, if I'm reading their somewhat convoluted tuition pages correctly, with 10 terms working out to $50-51k per year. I'm not sure about cost of living differences, but that should also be factored in, along with costs of visiting 'home'.


SGU: http://www.sgu.edu/financial-services/som-tuition.html
UQ: http://www2.som.uq.edu.au/som/Futur...ationalStudents/Cost/Pages/GraduateEntry.aspx
Ochsner: http://mededpath.org/tuition.php

 

[greencrescent]

Yea, Honestly it's not a large difference from Carrib to Australia. I am hearing good things about University of Queensland medschool, and as bad as this may sound, I am hearing UQ would be a wiser choice than Carrib due to the reputational factor, also I do plan on practicing medicine outside of the states and I think that would be a pretty big factor for choosing UQ over Carrib.

However I would like to get into a Residency in the States.

 

[greencrescent]

Also I am hearing you can graduate with a MD instead of an MBBS from UQ is this true?

 

[omniatlas]

Also I am hearing you can graduate with a MD instead of an MBBS from UQ is this true?

Thats U Melbourne, and certain folks over here are not very happy about that.

MD in this part of the world is a postgraduate research degree.

You'll receive an MBBS over here at UQ, which is equivalent to a US MD degree.

 

[nybgrus]

Also I am hearing you can graduate with a MD instead of an MBBS from UQ is this true?

No, at UQ it is MBBS. I am a second year student and head of USMLE prep and education for the Ochsner cohort. I teach the 1st year tutes, work with the faculty to design and implement a prep program, and will be sitting the exam later this year myself. Please see these threads for a bit more info:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=10837400#post10837400

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=779365

And PM me if you have any more questions. I have trouble keeping up with all the threads re: these topics, but I (and others) are keen to help if we can. So please, spread the word and PM me at will otherwise I may miss posts

 

[rayjay]

MD in this part of the world is a postgraduate research degree.

I'm confused about how this works. I'm not doubting you, dont get me wrong. i know there are other countries (India, England (?)) that use this method as well.

What I'm wondering is how someone would go about obtaining that "MD" classification? Would you need to do a PhD or would that be MBBS, PhD after your name. When you say postgraduate do you mean those people did a specialist residency (neurology/surgery/) or a fellowship to get that?

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

I'm confused about how this works. I'm not doubting you, dont get me wrong. i know there are other countries (India, England (?)) that use this method as well.

What I'm wondering is how someone would go about obtaining that "MD" classification? Would you need to do a PhD or would that be MBBS, PhD after your name. When you say postgraduate do you mean those people did a specialist residency (neurology/surgery/) or a fellowship to get that?

Thanks for the clarification.

Read this from The University of Sydney regarding their MD degree:

http://sydney.edu.au/medicine/future-students/pdfs/MD-info.pdf

This should answer the rest of your questions.

Basically..

Australian MBBS, BMed, BMBS, etc. = US/Canada MD or MDCM degree
(these are all equivalent entry level medical degrees which allow you to practice medicine)

Australian PhD = US/Canadian PhD
(these are research training degrees which require a single thesis)

Australian MD = US/Canadian DSc (hon) or DMSc (hon)

The closest thing I can think of in North America to an Australian MD degree is a Honorary Doctor of Medical Science degree which is granted more or less as a lifetime achievement award. This is given by Universities to individuals who have demonstrated outstanding contributions to a particular field of medicine/science through many published works, research, and or clinical experience. This is generally considered a higher degree than a PhD.


Does that help you understand the difference?

 

[rayjay]

Thanks, I appreciate the input.

It does help although now I am asking how the system works in countries such as India (and I think the UK) that award the MBBS degree to students right out of high school but then they further go on to get the MD. I have some family members who are considered "MD" in India but their are a lot of other doctors who are considered MBBS and from what I understand, there IS a difference between those two.

I'm not too concerned with the Aussie MD vs MBBS which is why I wasn't super keen on applying to Melbourne (or taking anatomy just to fulfill their prereq requirements...which they don't budge on)

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Thanks, I appreciate the input.

It does help although now I am asking how the system works in countries such as India (and I think the UK) that award the MBBS degree to students right out of high school but then they further go on to get the MD. I have some family members who are considered "MD" in India but their are a lot of other doctors who are considered MBBS and from what I understand, there IS a difference between those two.

I'm not too concerned with the Aussie MD vs MBBS which is why I wasn't super keen on applying to Melbourne (or taking anatomy just to fulfill their prereq requirements...which they don't budge on)

Why the obsession with the MD title? They are the same thing (Aus MBBS = US MD)! Even if you get an Aus MBBS and you move back to the USA to work or do residency most everywhere allows you to use the MD title on your white coat, name badge, business card, etc. Because of the very fact that they are equivalent degrees.

example: "Use of the M. D. Title: The Wisconsin Medical Society defends the use of the M.D. title by physicians who graduated with an M.B.B.S. and are licensed to practice medicine in Wisconsin."
http://www.wisconsinmedicalsociety.org/_WMS/legislation/_files/pdf/compendium/practice97-112.pdf

Not that you would even want to do that! If I graduated with an MBBS from the University of Sydney or an MBBChir from Cambridge University in the UK I would pretty damn proud of it and wouldn't want to change my advertised degree to appease an ignorant American public who wouldnt know the difference.

Regarding the UK and India... The UK MD degree is the same as in Australia. In India.. I think they grant an MD title after some specialty training programs and getting "board certified" in a medical specialty there.

All 3 countries UK, Australia, India (most of the world actually... any country that is has a British Commonwealth history) will be the largely the same. ie granting an MBBS, BMed, MB, BMBS, MBChB, etc as the first degree in medicine which is 100% equivalent to the US/Canadian MD,MDCM degrees.

As long as you are licensed to practice medicine in the country where you are working
If you are living/working as a doctor in Australia, UK, India or anywhere else.. they won't consider your American MD degree any different than their MBBS degree. If you are working in the USA.. your Australian MBBS won't be considered any different than any US MD degree!

 

[rayjay]

Why the obsession with the MD title?

As I stated previously, I'm not too concerned with MD vs MBBS I was merely curious as to how the system works in other countries re: granting an MD degree in addition to an MBBS for example India.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

I was merely curious as to how the system works in other countries re: granting an MD degree in addition to an MBBS for example India.

Sorry, I misread your post. I thought you were saying you would prefer to apply to Melbourne because they have changed to the north american way of naming their first degree in medicine an MD.

Whether or not your medical degree is an MD or MBBS actually has nothing to do with if the program has "direct-entry" from high school or if it is a graduate program. For example: In Sweden and Germany (as far as I'm aware) you get an MD and the programs are 6 years long and accept students right out of high school. In Australia you have both 6-7 year MBBS and combined BSc/MBBS programs for students right out of high school as well as graduate medical programs which are 4 years (ie Sydney, ANU, etc) which "require" a previous bachelors degree for admission.. yet the degree you receive is still an MBBS. They are equivalent degrees.. it is simply the tradition of the University which title they decide to name the degree.

It actually makes more sense for the first degree/entry level degree in medicine (or any field or subject) to be a bachelors degree. Think about this.. what if you study chemistry and graduate with a BSc Chem and then you want to go back and study French. ... you're not going to go straight into a Masters degree in French. You're starting over from scratch in a new subject.. so you would obtain a bachelors of French. ... and no... a BS in Biology is not the same as medicine. They are technically different fields of study.

Yeah.. Traditionally the "M.D." degree in the British Commonwealth system is purely a research/honorary degree and has nothing to do with the practice of medicine. It is an entirely different degree than the US MD degree.

example:
Dr. John Smith, BS, MD (Harvard), MD (Cambridge)
would be the same thing as
Dr. John Smith, BSc, MBBChir (Cambridge), MD (Cambridge)
would be the same thing as
Dr. John Smith, BSc, MBBS (Sydney), MD (Sydney)
would be the same thing as
Dr. John Smith, BSc, BMed, (Newcastle), MD (Newcastle)


Dr. John Smith, BMBS (Flinders)
would be the same thing as
Dr. John Smith, MDCM (McGill)
would be the same thing as
Dr. John Smith, MBChB (Otago)
would be the same thing as
Dr. John Smith, MD (Harvard)