Thinking of joining the Military

[Ender]

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I have some questions for those of you that have done military service, especially as an anesthesiologist. I am currently considering joining the airforce as a CA2 (2 years residency left) and then doing the 3 year payback. My family has a strong tradition of military service:

Father: currently active in army (went to Afganistan, now to Iraq)
Brother 1: Airforce, now out
Sister in Law: Airforce, now out
Brother 2: Army, infantry, went to Iraq, now out
Cousin: Marines (Iraq)
Cousin: Air National Guard (was active stateside and finished commitment, now out)
Grandfather: Marines (Korean War)
Uncle: Army (Vietnam)
many more

I had always planned on joining early and perhaps making a career of it. Shortly after getting married, may wife said NO WAY! Now she is more open to the idea of a short term experience.

I know that the money is not worth it, but I am not considering it for the money. The problem is I only read negative things about military service here on SDN. Is this mostly because of the money?

I want to take care of the guys that keep us safe. No matter what you think about the war, the soldiers are pawns. Every day they do as they are told and many don't come back or come back mangled. It is those men and women that I want to serve.

Of course I have to consider my family (wife, kids). I am most concerned with how I would be treated as an anesthesia attending. Will I be appreciated for the sacrifice and treated well enough, or will I be abused and miserable for 3 years? How are the hours (anesthesia specifically)? I think I understand the pay well enough (basically not good). What will my interaction with CRNAs be like? Will I be able to provide good care, or will it be like the third world?

Thanks for the Information. I have read A LOT of old post and still haven't found the answers, if you can point some out that are helpful, that would be appreciated.

Ender

PS mil, I know you are usually a man of few words, but if you say "don't do it" please expound. Thanks.

 

[toughlife]

😕

I have some questions for those of you that have done military service, especially as an anesthesiologist. I am currently considering joining the airforce as a CA2 (2 years residency left) and then doing the 3 year payback. My family has a strong tradition of military service:

Father: currently active in army intelligence (went to Afganistan, now to Iraq)
Brother 1: Airforce, now out
Sister in Law: Airforce, now out
Brother 2: Army, infantry, went to Iraq, now out
Cousin: Marines (Iraq)
Cousin: Air National Guard (was active stateside and finished commitment, now out)
Grandfather: Marines (Korean War)
Uncle: Army (Vietnam)
many more

I had always planned on joining early and perhaps making a career of it. Shortly after getting married, may wife said NO WAY! Now she is more open to the idea of a short term experience.

I know that the money is not worth it, but I am not considering it for the money. The problem is I only read negative things about military service here on SDN. Is this mostly because of the money?

I want to take care of the guys that keep us safe. No matter what you think about the war, the soldiers are pawns. Every day they do as they are told and many don't come back or come back mangled. It is those men and women that I want to serve.

Of course I have to consider my family (wife, kids). I am most concerned with how I would be treated as an anesthesia attending. Will I be appreciated for the sacrifice and treated well enough, or will I be abused and miserable for 3 years? How are the hours (anesthesia specifically)? I think I understand the pay well enough (basically not good). What will my interaction with CRNAs be like? Will I be able to provide good care, or will it be like the third world?

Thanks for the Information. I have read A LOT of old post and still haven't found the answers, if you can point some out that are helpful, that would be appreciated.

Ender

PS mil, I know you are usually a man of few words, but if you say "don't do it" please expound. Thanks.

From what I understand, rank trumps education so you will have nurses who are like that armygas dude who is a major who can boss you around.

 

[Planktonmd]

I moved the thread from the club to the main forum per OP's request.

 

[darkmansaad]

regardless of my views on war, your a good guy. if u truly believe in what you posted i dont think rank or a crna telling you what to do is going to stop you from helping those you want to. props

 

[climbingdocs]

for sake of wife and kid...don't do it....🙁

 

[Monty Python]

I have some questions for those of you that have done military service, especially as an anesthesiologist. I am currently considering joining the airforce as a CA2 (2 years residency left) and then doing the 3 year payback. My family has a strong tradition of military service:

Father: currently active in army intelligence (went to Afganistan, now to Iraq)
Brother 1: Airforce, now out
Sister in Law: Airforce, now out
Brother 2: Army, infantry, went to Iraq, now out
Cousin: Marines (Iraq)
Cousin: Air National Guard (was active stateside and finished commitment, now out)
Grandfather: Marines (Korean War)
Uncle: Army (Vietnam)
many more

I had always planned on joining early and perhaps making a career of it. Shortly after getting married, may wife said NO WAY! Now she is more open to the idea of a short term experience.

I know that the money is not worth it, but I am not considering it for the money. The problem is I only read negative things about military service here on SDN. Is this mostly because of the money?

I want to take care of the guys that keep us safe. No matter what you think about the war, the soldiers are pawns. Every day they do as they are told and many don't come back or come back mangled. It is those men and women that I want to serve.

Of course I have to consider my family (wife, kids). I am most concerned with how I would be treated as an anesthesia attending. Will I be appreciated for the sacrifice and treated well enough, or will I be abused and miserable for 3 years? How are the hours (anesthesia specifically)? I think I understand the pay well enough (basically not good). What will my interaction with CRNAs be like? Will I be able to provide good care, or will it be like the third world?

Thanks for the Information. I have read A LOT of old post and still haven't found the answers, if you can point some out that are helpful, that would be appreciated.

Ender

PS mil, I know you are usually a man of few words, but if you say "don't do it" please expound. Thanks.

A few thoughts:

1. check out the military forum: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?f=72

2. your rank as a non-line officer (ie, a non-combat specialist) is primarily a function of the date of your professional license. Your pay is primarly a function of your rank, regardless of title or duty. Physicians are eligible for some bonuses (which, of course, come with additional years of obligated service).

3. military courtesy (a function of rank) is always observed. Nevertheless, even a senior-ranking nurse will think long and hard before really crossing paths with a more junior physician.

4. you're serving the best customers in the world. Their ability to pay for their case isn't a concern -- it's all gratis, courtesy of Uncle Sam.

5. Except at the handful of megacenters (Walter Reed, Bethesda, etc.) CRNAs generally have total autonomy. There is an anesthesiologist as department head, but 99% of the time the CRNAs are on the stool flying solo. CRNAs are also deployed as sole providers frequently to some God-forsaken areas. My knowledge is primarly of Navy hospitals and to some degree Army. The Air Force might be different -- I have no knowledge or experience with them.

6. Call the anesthesia department at a military hospital -- make an appointment to visit the department head and ask your questions. You'll get an eyeful and earful, both good and bad. Don't rely on what the generic recruiter or even the medical officer recruiter say -- they're just chasing numbers for the annual quota (unless the medical recruiter is an anesthesiologist which I've never seen before).

7. Captain (Dr.) Laverty is the Executive Officer (second in command) of Naval Hospital Twentynine Palms, California.

http://www.nhtp.med.navy.mil/Welcome Aboard.mht

He's a career Navy officer and is also an anesthesiologist. He'd be happy to chat on the phone with you: (760) 830-2190



.

 

[ozzie20]

for sake of wife and kid...don't do it....🙁

100% agreed. If you really want to serve the soldiers, why not sign on as an independent contractor to a military hospital?

Think about it. You get all the benefits you wanted in serving soldiers, and none of the obligations of being in the military. And, you get the added benefit of knowing how you would be treated, only without having to deal with the issues of rank. My dad being an IM doc had considered it, and is still considering it for an AF offer.

 

[Ender]

I moved the thread from the club to the main forum per OP's request.

Thanks Plank

 

[Ender]

regardless of my views on war, your a good guy. if u truly believe in what you posted i dont think rank or a crna telling you what to do is going to stop you from helping those you want to. props

I appreciate the kind words Dark

Ender

 

[Ender]

A few thoughts:

1. check out the military forum: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?f=72

2. your rank as a non-line officer (ie, a non-combat specialist) is primarily a function of the date of your professional license. Your pay is primarly a function of your rank, regardless of title or duty. Physicians are eligible for some bonuses (which, of course, come with additional years of obligated service).

3. military courtesy (a function of rank) is always observed. Nevertheless, even a senior-ranking nurse will think long and hard before really crossing paths with a more junior physician.

4. you're serving the best customers in the world. Their ability to pay for their case isn't a concern -- it's all gratis, courtesy of Uncle Sam.

5. Except at the handful of megacenters (Walter Reed, Bethesda, etc.) CRNAs generally have total autonomy. There is an anesthesiologist as department head, but 99% of the time the CRNAs are on the stool flying solo. CRNAs are also deployed as sole providers frequently to some God-forsaken areas. My knowledge is primarly of Navy hospitals and to some degree Army. The Air Force might be different -- I have no knowledge or experience with them.

6. Call the anesthesia department at a military hospital -- make an appointment to visit the department head and ask your questions. You'll get an eyeful and earful, both good and bad. Don't rely on what the generic recruiter or even the medical officer recruiter say -- they're just chasing numbers for the annual quota (unless the medical recruiter is an anesthesiologist which I've never seen before).

7. Captain (Dr.) Laverty is the Executive Officer (second in command) of Naval Hospital Twentynine Palms, California.

http://www.nhtp.med.navy.mil/Welcome Aboard.mht

He's a career Navy officer and is also an anesthesiologist. He'd be happy to chat on the phone with you: (760) 830-2190



.

THanks for the info. That is very helpful. I'll give him a call.

Ender

 

[2ndyear]

I know I saw some job ads for Walter Reed recently, non-military, but you do get to serve the troops. Also, think about the VA if you're not going to commit to a military career.

 

[psychbender]

I'd have to second Ozzie, and say go the contractor route, if you are truly set on serving the troops. You get pretty much all of the benefits, without any of the hassle--no deployments, better pay, no rank issues, no large service obligation, etc. I know that there are quite a few contractors at both of the residency programs, and am sure that there are spots at the other hospitals.

 

[pd4emergence]

Ender,
I did the same thing as a CA2. I looked at both the army and the airforce. I ultimately decided against joining. The main reason was economics. My wife and I were both residents at the time and pretty much like everybody else were loaded with debt. I looked at the stipend the military wanted to give and looked at our loan debt. I also looked at what I would be making and what she would possibly make (which was not much especially if I had to deploy) and we just couldn't afford to do it. If they would have paid off my loans with a 4 year commitment I would have joined. I feel like you do. I felt a strong pull to join but with a wife (who wanted to work) and two kids it just didn't seem feasible. I do regret not joining at times. Good luck with your decision.

pd4

 

[coprolalia]

One of our recent grads is a Major in the Army. Currently at Fort Bragg in North Carolina. Did the gig to get school paid for. Is set to be deployed early in 2009. This will force time away from family, and an uncertain future. In this case, the deployment will be to Landstuhl, Germany, as a physician anesthesiologist, to handle the more complex cases coming out of Iraq 🙂confused🙂. This grad has extensive experience in regional pain procedures, and I guess the Army is going to exploit that. Her husband is staying in the States while she is deployed.

Last time I talked to her, she told me that she wouldn't have done had she had the choice to do it all over again. She signed-up in 1999 before this mess ensued. Make whatever moral judgments you want.

-copro

 

[Monty Python]

One of our recent grads is a Major in the Army. Currently at Fort Bragg in North Carolina. Did the gig to get school paid for. Is set to be deployed early in 2009. This will force time away from family, and an uncertain future. In this case, the deployment will be to Landstuhl, Germany, as a physician anesthesiologist, to handle the more complex cases coming out of Iraq 🙂confused🙂. This grad has extensive experience in regional pain procedures, and I guess the Army is going to exploit that. Her husband is staying in the States while she is deployed.

Last time I talked to her, she told me that she wouldn't have done had she had the choice to do it all over again. She signed-up in 1999 before this mess ensued. Make whatever moral judgments you want.

-copro

As copro indicates above .... with Uncle Sam there is no free lunch.

The military will give you a blank check for med school tuition, student loan payback, recruiting bonus, etc etc. But there are string attached, ie, you go where they say once you're fully trained.

A typical MS1 taking the full four year scholarship will have a four year obligation as an active duty physician. The four years don't begin until after residency. The payback is a little different (I think) if you join as a resident and simply take the student loan payback, but I don't know the details.

Whatever you do, should you decide to join ..... NEVER trust the recruiter simply on conversational data. GET IT IN WRITING on an official form. The actual piece of paper (among many) which you sign to join-up is technically a contract --- read it very closely.

 

[coprolalia]

As copro indicates above .... with Uncle Sam there is no free lunch.

Absolutely. I think this particular person had no idea what her life was going to be like 9 years ago. Try to think imagine what your life will be like 9 years from now before you make any decisions... that's very, very tough to do with any degree of certainty.

This is a big commitment. And, I mean that in every possible way the word "commitment" can be interpreted.

-copro

 

[militarymd]

I have NUMEROUS threads about this subject. Search for my posts from 2003 when I joined.

I'm proud that I served with honor (many did not).

I feel that I'm a better man for having served.

I am pretty sure I would not do it again.

 

[sethco]

I have NUMEROUS threads about this subject. Search for my posts from 2003 when I joined.

I'm proud that I served with honor (many did not).

I feel that I'm a better man for having served.

I am pretty sure I would not do it again.

Echo what he said.

I don't recommend this route at all.

 

[Ender]

One of our recent grads is a Major in the Army. Currently at Fort Bragg in North Carolina. Did the gig to get school paid for. Is set to be deployed early in 2009. This will force time away from family, and an uncertain future. In this case, the deployment will be to Landstuhl, Germany, as a physician anesthesiologist, to handle the more complex cases coming out of Iraq 🙂confused🙂. This grad has extensive experience in regional pain procedures, and I guess the Army is going to exploit that. Her husband is staying in the States while she is deployed.

Last time I talked to her, she told me that she wouldn't have done had she had the choice to do it all over again. She signed-up in 1999 before this mess ensued. Make whatever moral judgments you want.

-copro

I would love to go to Landstuhl, but only if my family comes with me.

Ender

 

[Ender]

I have NUMEROUS threads about this subject. Search for my posts from 2003 when I joined.

I'm proud that I served with honor (many did not).

I feel that I'm a better man for having served.

I am pretty sure I would not do it again.

Mil I cannot find those old posts, whenever I search it only ends up showing your last 350 post which are withing the last few months. Does anyone know how to search further back? What does it mean when you say that others did not serve with honor?

As copro indicates above .... with Uncle Sam there is no free lunch.

The military will give you a blank check for med school tuition, student loan payback, recruiting bonus, etc etc. But there are string attached, ie, you go where they say once you're fully trained.

A typical MS1 taking the full four year scholarship will have a four year obligation as an active duty physician. The four years don't begin until after residency. The payback is a little different (I think) if you join as a resident and simply take the student loan payback, but I don't know the details.

Whatever you do, should you decide to join ..... NEVER trust the recruiter simply on conversational data. GET IT IN WRITING on an official form. The actual piece of paper (among many) which you sign to join-up is technically a contract --- read it very closely.

Thanks for the advice.

Echo what he said.

I don't recommend this route at all.

What is it about the experience that you would not recommend?

I am seriously considering this, in fact my wife and I met with a recruiter last night. We are going to take things slow and find out everything we can berfore deciding yea or nay. I expect to make a final decision around May of 2009. I do not want to make a mistake, but I need specifics from those of you with experience. I know the money is way below private practice. That is ok with me. I know that I will not be able to decide where I go, but as long as my family can come with me it is ok as well (I wouls love to go to Germany or Japan). How frequently should I expect to be deployed and for how long (remember this is Air Force)? At first one recruited said 90 days then the other said 6 months. What type of deployments do Anesthesiologist do?

If you have anything to add, positive or negative please explain in detail. That would really be helpful. Once again thanks to everyone who has posted so far.

Ender

 

[Gimlet]

Mil I cannot find those old posts, whenever I search it only ends up showing your last 350 post which are withing the last few months. Does anyone know how to search further back? What does it mean when you say that others did not serve with honor?

Do an "advanced search" at the top of the forum page for posts by militarymd. If you change the "sort posts by" option to "Last Posting Date" and "Ascending Order" and you will get his posts back to Dec. 2003.

Edit: try this link to a search I did - looks like there are some money threads for you:
By post: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/search.php?searchid=7684359
By thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/search.php?searchid=7684386

 

[sethco]

If you have anything to add, positive or negative please explain in detail. That would really be helpful.

Just like mil, you can search my old posts, but I will try to sum it up briefly. Keep in mind some of it will not apply to you, as I am currently serving as a flight surgeon and will begin (or resume) my Anesthesia residency in July 2010.

1) Deployments are unpredictable. Do not believe anything the recruiter tells you because they do not have a crystal ball. Right now, for the AF, deployments are generally 4-6 months, but some people go on 365 deployments. There are rumors that the AF will move all deployments to 6 months, possibly longer. Do you have a family? Do you plan on having kids? Imagine being stationed in an area which you or your SO does not know anybody that can help out while deployed. This puts a great strain on family life. There is a reason that the divorce rate is high in the military.

2) Base location is not by choice for your first assignment. In actuality, base choice is an illusion. You can pretty much forget about Germany, Italy, Japan, or whatever for your first assignment. Korea is do-able, but it is usually an unaccompanied tour, meaning that your family can't come with you. The choice assignments happen when you have tenure and even then you are subject to what is open AT THAT TIME. The choices I was given when I came on to active duty were Tinker, Cannon, Grand Forks, and Dyess. Look them up if you don't know where they are. Your choices may be a little better, but they will still be limited

3) Tricare is an horrendous system. This may not apply to you as much, but there is a possibility of you perform services outside your specialty (See #4). The reimbursement/payment schedule is atrocious and navigating the system is a nightmare. In my area, we are finding fewer civilian providers taking Tricare by the year and access to care becomes a serious issue when patients have to wait several months to see their referral to Derm, GI, Rheum, ENT, whatever.

4) The needs of the military come first. This should go without saying, but some people don't always realize what this means. Residency trained docs are often deployed to perform duties outside their trained specialty. Pediatricians being deployed with Flying Squadrons. Radiologists/Dermatologists being deployed as PCPs. I even heard rumors that OB/GYNs being deployed in surgeon billets.

5) Nurses/Administrators as your superiors. This hasn't really affected me yet, but some people complain that these individuals may set policy which may directly interfere with patient care. How would you feel if you had to defend your actions to a CRNA that is higher ranking? I have heard people complaining about this before.

6) Pay is completely substandard and a joke. As an Anesthesiologist, you will be lucky to make half of what you would make as a civilian (and that's being generous). The bonuses have gone up in recent years, but don't expect it to come anywhere close. Retention of physician is not a priority. To be honest, probably only 5-10% of Anesthesiologist stay in the military past their initial commitment. What would you think of a PP job that had this kind of retention?

These are all I am going to type for now. If have any Q's PM me and I can describe more. These are only some of the negatives and they may or may not apply to you. I am very happy with my military service. I feel I have the best patient population in the word, but to describe the military medical system as anything but broken would be a disservice to troops everywhere. If I could go back 8 years ago, I would have never signed the contract and I would be graduating from residency this year.

 

[radslooking]

I would love to go to Landstuhl, but only if my family comes with me.

Ender

this quote scares me because you are considering getting into the military, and if so, I would have no such pre-requisities. sounds like a disaster to me.

 

[Ender]

this quote scares me because you are considering getting into the military, and if so, I would have no such pre-requisities. sounds like a disaster to me.

I am not naive. This is not a prerequisite. It was just a comment that I would like to go there. I have no illusions about having a decision in the matter of location. Like I said I have a fair idea of what military life is like because of family members who have served, but I have no idea what it is like to be a doctor in the service. That is why I am asking for help.

Ender

 

[Ender]

Just like mil, you can search my old posts, but I will try to sum it up briefly. Keep in mind some of it will not apply to you, as I am currently serving as a flight surgeon and will begin (or resume) my Anesthesia residency in July 2010.

1) Deployments are unpredictable. Do not believe anything the recruiter tells you because they do not have a crystal ball. Right now, for the AF, deployments are generally 4-6 months, but some people go on 365 deployments. There are rumors that the AF will move all deployments to 6 months, possibly longer. Do you have a family? Do you plan on having kids? Imagine being stationed in an area which you or your SO does not know anybody that can help out while deployed. This puts a great strain on family life. There is a reason that the divorce rate is high in the military.

2) Base location is not by choice for your first assignment. In actuality, base choice is an illusion. You can pretty much forget about Germany, Italy, Japan, or whatever for your first assignment. Korea is do-able, but it is usually an unaccompanied tour, meaning that your family can't come with you. The choice assignments happen when you have tenure and even then you are subject to what is open AT THAT TIME. The choices I was given when I came on to active duty were Tinker, Cannon, Grand Forks, and Dyess. Look them up if you don't know where they are. Your choices may be a little better, but they will still be limited

3) Tricare is an horrendous system. This may not apply to you as much, but there is a possibility of you perform services outside your specialty (See #4). The reimbursement/payment schedule is atrocious and navigating the system is a nightmare. In my area, we are finding fewer civilian providers taking Tricare by the year and access to care becomes a serious issue when patients have to wait several months to see their referral to Derm, GI, Rheum, ENT, whatever.

4) The needs of the military come first. This should go without saying, but some people don't always realize what this means. Residency trained docs are often deployed to perform duties outside their trained specialty. Pediatricians being deployed with Flying Squadrons. Radiologists/Dermatologists being deployed as PCPs. I even heard rumors that OB/GYNs being deployed in surgeon billets.

5) Nurses/Administrators as your superiors. This hasn't really affected me yet, but some people complain that these individuals may set policy which may directly interfere with patient care. How would you feel if you had to defend your actions to a CRNA that is higher ranking? I have heard people complaining about this before.

6) Pay is completely substandard and a joke. As an Anesthesiologist, you will be lucky to make half of what you would make as a civilian (and that's being generous). The bonuses have gone up in recent years, but don't expect it to come anywhere close. Retention of physician is not a priority. To be honest, probably only 5-10% of Anesthesiologist stay in the military past their initial commitment. What would you think of a PP job that had this kind of retention?

These are all I am going to type for now. If have any Q's PM me and I can describe more. These are only some of the negatives and they may or may not apply to you. I am very happy with my military service. I feel I have the best patient population in the word, but to describe the military medical system as anything but broken would be a disservice to troops everywhere. If I could go back 8 years ago, I would have never signed the contract and I would be graduating from residency this year.

Thanks for the info. I will PM you soon.

Ender

 

[radslooking]

I am not naive. This is not a prerequisite. It was just a comment that I would like to go there. I have no illusions about having a decision in the matter of location. Like I said I have a fair idea of what military life is like because of family members who have served, but I have no idea what it is like to be a doctor in the service. That is why I am asking for help.

Ender

no probs man. just didn't want you to be a social and professional casualty 🙂

 

[sethco]

I am not naive. This is not a prerequisite. It was just a comment that I would like to go there. I have no illusions about having a decision in the matter of location. Like I said I have a fair idea of what military life is like because of family members who have served, but I have no idea what it is like to be a doctor in the service. That is why I am asking for help.

Ender

This is the big problem here.

The Line side is completely different from the medical side. It is almost useless to take advice from these people because although they know what it's like to serve in the military, they do not see what it is like to be a physician in the military.

Try to talk to as many Active Duty (especially Anesthesiologists) physicians as possible (aside from the ones that the recruiter tries to get you in touch with). The trick is talking to these people "offline" or "off the record" so none of their answers are pressured and they don't feel that reprecussions will happen based on what they tell you.

Good Luck (and Caveat Emptor)

 

[Pilot Doc]

this quote scares me because you are considering getting into the military, and if so, I would have no such pre-requisities. sounds like a disaster to me.

You misread his statement.

He didn't say he WOULD go IF his family could come
He said he would LOVE to go IF his family could come

He said nothing at all about having any pre-requisites to service.

 

[RangerD]

Ender, I think that if you want to go the military route, then by all means do it! I'm surprised at all the people trying to convince you not to serve our country. I think there is honor in service to the country and you will will be a better man for doing it. I actually think everyone should serve in some way or another, but that's just my opinion.

Now, I agree with others that you should not do it for the sake of advancing your career in Anesthesia or for any sort of monetary reason. You can obviously make more in private practice, but you said you already understand that. However, you said your family has a long tradition in the military (which I can relate to as well) and you "want to take care of the guys that keep us safe", which I think is very honorable on your part. You seem willing to make the sacrifice, so I don't see any reason not to do it.

I, personally, was wounded in combat and I'll tell you that the docs that took care of me were awesome. I know they made a sacrifice by spending those years taking care of people like me, instead of doing the private practice thing, but I am grateful they made that sacrifice. We need good docs in the military, so if you feel the call...do it. 👍