Third year core rotations cut in half

[hawkrealm]

Hi all,

My school has rotations that are scheduled for 8 weeks, but only half of this time is scheduled for in-person rotations. We get the rest of the time off with no work assigned. So a rotation might look like: 4 weeks in the hospital, 4 weeks off. This has been ongoing my entire third year and will continue throughout the spring. I suspect that COVID has something to do with this, but I would have thought by now all rotations should have returned to normal.

My question is: How should I approach this situation? We already lost two straight months of rotations last year when COVID hit and I am concerned that my clinical skills are poor. I am struggling on presentations, patient interviews, and understanding the general workflow of a hospital. I am planning on scheduling my sub-Is in the fall and am concerned that I will perform poorly on them. I was thinking about scheduling shadowing shifts during my time off and asking if I can do typical third year tasks like presenting the patient, writing the note, and pending orders but I am not sure if this would be legal if done outside of my school system. I could also just use the extra time to study, but to be honest I have already spent the majority of third year at home and have already done too much studying. What do you guys think?

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[Kr#36]

At TCOM(they deserve the name and shame for their rotation quality, covid mishandlings, and inability to get their students who are currently on rotations properly vaccinated) we had 2 weeks of our surgery rotation taken away for some patient safety course (because TCOM gets a kickback to be the guinea pig school), we have 2 of the weeks off, and for the remaining four we were alphabetically assigned into completely random rotations. So some people's only surgery experience in med school is 4 weeks of ortho for example. Meanwhile I know someone who is published in ortho who is spending a month doing anesthesiology with no surgery at all. Didn't even make an effort to match up students with their interests nor did they try to provide quality surgical education.

 

[Dryad8212]

What are you complaining about? use the extra time to study and do well on boards! who cares if you dont get that useless clinic time!

 

[Kr#36]

Some of us want a proper education. Others are planning on applying to one of the surgical fields.

 

[Dryad8212]

Some of us want a proper education. Others are planning on applying to one of the surgical fields.

At TCOM, im pretty sure their mission is to serve rural with family medicine physicians. Is that not your mission anymore when you informed that in your interview?

 

[hawkrealm]

What are you complaining about? use the extra time to study and do well on boards! who cares if you dont get that useless clinic time!

We are paying an exorbitant amount of tuition to be placed on clinical rotations and be taught by attending physicians. Anyone can sit at home and do UWorld questions. That's not what we are paying tuition to do.

At TCOM, im pretty sure their mission is to serve rural with family medicine physicians. Is that not your mission anymore when you informed that in your interview?

I would argue that a family medicine rural physician would be one of the specialties most served by getting that in-person clinical experience. It's one of those things you can't just learn online.

 

[Dryad8212]

We are paying an exorbitant amount of tuition to be placed on clinical rotations and be taught by attending physicians. Anyone can sit at home and do UWorld questions. That's not what we are paying tuition to do.

I would argue that a family medicine rural physician would be one of the specialties most served by getting that in-person clinical experience. It's one of those things you can't just learn online.

You are definitely right. But that one poster spoke about surgery and TCOM so I was trolling him with their "mission".

I agree clinical experience is very important. But that can be easily learned. With that extra time to study that can be helpful for shelf exam scores and boards.

 

[hawkrealm]

You are definitely right. But that one poster spoke about surgery and TCOM so I was trolling him with their "mission".

I agree clinical experience is very important. But that can be easily learned. With that extra time to study that can be helpful for shelf exam scores and boards.

I would disagree that clinical experience can be easily learned. I feel like I would be at a disadvantage on a sub-I when the other 4th year has done a full 2-3 months of IM and I have done 1 month or less.

 

[DO2015CA]

I would disagree that clinical experience can be easily learned. I feel like I would be at a disadvantage on a sub-I when the other 4th year has done a full 2-3 months of IM and I have done 1 month or less.

I agree you need to learn the skills but honestly I don’t think you will look terrible on sub-I. Everyone is going to look terrible. I do think you need to be doing rotations and it is safe to do so currently. It’s just a vast majority of schools are doing stuff like this even MD schools are. Whether we like to admit it or not, sub-Is are a comparison game. How good/bad do you like against what a peer looks like. This year everyone will be behind.

 

[Kr#36]

At TCOM, im pretty sure their mission is to serve rural with family medicine physicians. Is that not your mission anymore when you informed that in your interview?

I'm not personally applying to surgery, but I also didnt hide that I have absolutely no interest in family med in my interview, on my app, or anytime thereafter.

 

[Dryad8212]

I'm not personally applying to surgery, but I also didnt hide that I have absolutely no interest in family med in my interview, on my app, or anytime thereafter.

lmao respect!

 

[BuildingMyOwnLuck]

We are paying an exorbitant amount of tuition to be placed on clinical rotations and be taught by attending physicians. Anyone can sit at home and do UWorld questions. That's not what we are paying tuition to do.

Let's be real here, we're mostly just paying for the degree. Otherwise, we could take COMLEX and USMLE by ourselves and maybe do a year of rotations. Plus as far as I can tell, most of the rotations are about not looking dumb and being liked more than actually learning. Except maybe learning what specialties would fit us best and our board score would allow to match in.

I'm happy to be corrected however.

 

[tonygurley]

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[Dryad8212]

Let's be real here, we're mostly just paying for the degree. Otherwise, we could take COMLEX and USMLE by ourselves and maybe do a year of rotations. Plus as far as I can tell, most of the rotations are about not looking dumb and being liked more than actually learning. Except maybe learning what specialties would fit us best and our board score would allow to match in.

I'm happy to be corrected however.

This! We are paying for the overpriced degree.

 

[MDMechEngr]

Let's be real here, we're mostly just paying for the degree. Otherwise, we could take COMLEX and USMLE by ourselves and maybe do a year of rotations. Plus as far as I can tell, most of the rotations are about not looking dumb and being liked more than actually learning. Except maybe learning what specialties would fit us best and our board score would allow to match in.

I'm happy to be corrected however.

that is why the mid-levels argue they are equivalent.

 

[Dryad8212]

that is why the mid-levels argue they are equivalent.

They kinda are. I hate to say it. We just have a little more education but a lot more training in specific niche than they do.

 

[Lawpy]

that is why the mid-levels argue they are equivalent.

Uh... DO expansion and the crappy COCA standards aren't exactly helping your case here tbh

 

[Lawpy]

We are paying an exorbitant amount of tuition to be placed on clinical rotations and be taught by attending physicians. Anyone can sit at home and do UWorld questions. That's not what we are paying tuition to do.

If that's your argument, let's reduce preclinical everywhere to 1 year and maybe even make med school a 3 year program. I think @Splenda88 suggested this elsewhere. That'd cut the tuition by at least 25% and make med school more worth it.

That said, clinical sites and quality of clinical education are highly variable, and DO expansion is making it much worse while being badly overpriced.

 

[MDMechEngr]

Uh... DO expansion and the crappy COCA standards aren't exactly helping your case here tbh

certaintly will hurt the DO brand more.

 

[Splenda88]

If that's your argument, let's reduce preclinical everywhere to 1 year and maybe even make med school a 3 year program. I think @Splenda88 suggested this elsewhere. That'd cut the tuition by at least 25% and make med school more worth it.

That said, clinical sites and quality of clinical education are highly variable, and DO expansion is making it much worse while being badly overpriced.

We can even do it 18 + 18 months... 4th year of med school or half of it is useless anyway... People used to say one needs it for interviews, but now we have virtual interviews, so this argument is no longer valid.

We can also do away with undergrad degree as a de facto requirement to get into med school.. You cut these 2 years, student loan decrease by ~25% and doctors will get into the workforce 2 years earlier.

Is that too much to ask our med school leaders?

If this will 'decrease' (for lack of a better word) the quality or competency of the physician workforce, I won't be for it...

 

[Lawpy]

We can even do it 18 + 18 months... 4th year of med school or half of it is useless anyway... People used to say one needs it for interviews, but now we have virtual interviews, so this argument is no longer valid.

We can also do away with undergrad degree as a de facto requirement to get into med school.. You cut these 2 years, student loan decrease by ~25% and doctors will get into the workforce 2 years earlier.

Is that too much to ask our med school leaders?

If this will 'decrease' (for lack of a better word) the quality or competency of the physician workforce, I won't be for it...

That model looks like what rest of the world uses iirc and their doctors are great. I really believe the critical point is residency where medicine can be actually learned so i like this proposed system

 

[Lanhaines Elsetion]

Let's be real here, we're mostly just paying for the degree. Otherwise, we could take COMLEX and USMLE by ourselves and maybe do a year of rotations. Plus as far as I can tell, most of the rotations are about not looking dumb and being liked more than actually learning. Except maybe learning what specialties would fit us best and our board score would allow to match in.

I'm happy to be corrected however.

There is plenty you can get out of rotations if you make an effort to learn and look things up as you go. Nobody cares that you "look smart" by knowing random HLAs or you brought more donuts than the last student. Learning how to take a good useful history, come up with your own assessment/plan, or do a multi-layer closure followed by a running vertical mattress in the OR will be much more impressive if you can pull those off. Actual learning is the point of rotations so you don't struggle at your job in the future. Look at your comment in 2 years when you are 1/2 through your third year...

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

They kinda are. I hate to say it. We just have a little more education but a lot more training in specific niche than they do.

Speak for yourself... Either YOU or your school is pure ****. There is no way some fly by night NP degree is remotely close to the training I’ve received.

 

[Neopolymath]

Speak for yourself... Either YOU or your school is pure ****. There is no way some fly by night NP degree is remotely close to the training I’ve received.

I'm pretty certain he is a premed

Radiology as FMG/IMG: Visa comparison long term

I'm currently studying medicine in Italy, second year (our of six), graduating in 2025, and preplanning* my hop across the pond to the US. Currently I'm investigating the possibility to get into radiology (diagnostics in particular). One of my concerns is the peculiarity of rads' path, with its...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[Dryad8212]

I'm pretty certain he is a premed

Radiology as FMG/IMG: Visa comparison long term

I'm currently studying medicine in Italy, second year (our of six), graduating in 2025, and preplanning* my hop across the pond to the US. Currently I'm investigating the possibility to get into radiology (diagnostics in particular). One of my concerns is the peculiarity of rads' path, with its...

forums.studentdoctor.net

Pretty sure I left medical school 4 years ago and now will be entering as a second year with my first year credits dummy.

As ive told you before on a different post, you can be a premed and still have more knowledge than someone who is in medical school in this regard for example if you have family members who are physicians. You are very interested in what I say and my activity on this forum. Buzz off

 

[Dryad8212]

Speak for yourself... Either YOU or your school is pure ****. There is no way some fly by night NP degree is remotely close to the training I’ve received.

Lets say you become a dermatologist. You have training in psychiatry rotation during third year. The NP does not. You have more training but the psych rotation went to waste and you and the NP are at the same level theoretically if you know what I mean.

 

[Neopolymath]

Pretty sure I left medical school 4 years ago and now will be entering as a second year with my first year credits dummy.

As ive told you before on a different post, you can be a premed and still have more knowledge than someone who is in medical school in this regard if you have family members who are physicians. You are very interested in what I say and my activity on this forum. Buzz off

On topic: This makes your comment make even less sense and seem more bizarre because a medical student would understand that exposure, training, and experience in different fields gives physicians perspective important to making optimal decisions for both their patients and colleagues in other specialties. That's an important part of medical training versus an NP, for example. An NP might have a few rotations in different specialties, sure, but will not achieve the immersion and education a medical student receives. One could write paragraphs about this.

Off topic: I'm not particularly interested in you so don't flatter youself. I have seen your posts in the rads forum because I am going into rads. I now see you again because you pop up in this thread making a strange statement. Otherwise, I'm not sure you have ever told me anything? I don't know, man. Context is important, particularly when making bizarre statements tangentially related to reality. So yeah, I think people should understand that the guy saying we are equivalent to midlevels (your words previously) isn't even actively in medical school. But since you are a med student again apparently I'm sure you understand pretest probability and Bayesian statistics. Although not directly related, the principle is the same: we must understand who the messenger is and the context to evaluate the message just like any lab test. I'm sure you understand the D-Dimer or the stress test. I have no problem with premeds. I was a premed once and my views haven't changed much since then because I grew up in healthcare, had physician family, probably had as much experience in this world that one can have before starting blah blah blah. That's neither here nor there though as I'm not the one preaching falsehoods.

 

[Neopolymath]

Lets say you become a dermatologist. You have training in psychiatry rotation during third year. The NP does not. You have more training but the psych rotation went to waste and you and the NP are at the same level theoretically if you know what I mean.

Your failure to see the impact of a psych rotation on a specialty that deals with people frequently suffering from mental illness such as anxiety and depression as well as personality disorders does not support your argument. It actually defies it but you wouldn't know that because you haven't gotten there yet to comment on it lol. Just wait.

Edit: For the record, I need to point out that I never said your argument was invalid because you aren't in school. In my initial post I didn't even make comment on your argument. I just linked your other post. I generally don't make a habit of arguing based solely on training level on here as I find it irritating.

There probably are premeds or underclassmen med students who know more than some people further along. This post right here is a great example of why you aren't the guy lol.

 

[DO2015CA]

Pretty sure I left medical school 4 years ago and now will be entering as a second year with my first year credits dummy.

As ive told you before on a different post, you can be a premed and still have more knowledge than someone who is in medical school in this regard if you have family members who are physicians. You are very interested in what I say and my activity on this forum. Buzz off

Bolded doesn't make sense. Just because you mom is a doctor doesn't make you knowledgable in medicine. You may be more familiar with the healthcare system, but as a med student you understand how much depth an content there is just in the first two years.

 

[Dryad8212]

Bolded doesn't make sense. Just because you mom is a doctor doesn't make you knowledgable in medicine. You may be more familiar with the healthcare system, but as a med student you understand how much depth an content there is just in the first two years.

I was referring to healthcare in regards to reply to his specific post in saying im just a premed and i dont know anything. He has made comments previously that im just a premed and dont know jack as a result.

 

[DO2015CA]

I was referring to healthcare in regards to reply to his specific post in saying im just a premed and i dont know anything. He has made comments previously that im just a premed and dont know jack as a result.

ah, i understand.

 

[Neopolymath]

I was referring to healthcare in regards to reply to his specific post in saying im just a premed and i dont know anything. He has made comments previously that im just a premed and dont know jack as a result.

Once again, I didn't say anything about what you said in your initial post. I provided context to your comment. No one said "just a" premed. I didn't say your opinion is bad because you aren't in school. It's a plenty bad opinion standing on its own. You are projecting and insecure. It'll all be ok.

And just to make it clear again, you are confusing me with someone else. Cranji made a comment to you in the "Is med school worth it" thread about being a premed not me.

Edit: Just checked your short post history to make sure I wasn't crazy and yep you are mistaken.

 

[Dryad8212]

Once again, I didn't say anything about what you said in your initial post. I provided context to your comment. No one said "just a" premed. I didn't say your opinion is bad because you aren't in school. It's a plenty bad opinion standing on its own. You are projecting and insecure. It'll all be ok.

And just to make it clear again, you are confusing me with someone else. Cranji made a comment to you in the "Is med school worth it" thread about being a premed not me.

Edit: Just checked your short post history to make sure I wasn't crazy and yep you are mistaken.

Alright lets end the story here.

 

[Mass Effect]

You are definitely right. But that one poster spoke about surgery and TCOM so I was trolling him with their "mission".

I agree clinical experience is very important. But that can be easily learned.

Eagerly awaiting hearing about your intern year.

Lets say you become a dermatologist. You have training in psychiatry rotation during third year. The NP does not. You have more training but the psych rotation went to waste and you and the NP are at the same level theoretically if you know what I mean.

Boy are you in for a shock.

 

[Dryad8212]

Eagerly awaiting hearing about your intern year.

Same. I'll let you know.