This is Who You Are Competing Against

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"That was the moment I realized: I was not competing with this girl for a spot in medical school. I was competing with her father.
Her millionaire, OCD, surgeon of a father."


This poor girl has been so shaped, guided and molded that she's probably got no idea what she wants and/or how to react if things don't go her way. How will she ever learn resiliency if she's never allowed to fail.

Quite aside from the probable train wreck of her life, the post does illustrate how the upper-middle-class have an advantage over those of lower SES. There's a "game" in all of this, and if your parents don't know the rules, you start off several steps behind. The playing field is nowhere near level.
 
Quite aside from the probable train wreck of her life, the post does illustrate how the upper-middle-class have an advantage over those of lower SES. There's a "game" in all of this, and if your parents don't know the rules, you start off several steps behind. The playing field is nowhere near level.

Completely agree. I'd still choose my childhood freedom over her advantages (and the damaged self-worth they came with) any day of the week.
 
"That was the moment I realized: I was not competing with this girl for a spot in medical school. I was competing with her father.
Her millionaire, OCD, surgeon of a father."


This poor girl has been so shaped, guided and molded that she's probably got no idea what she wants and/or how to react if things don't go her way. How will she ever learn resiliency if she's never allowed to fail.

Quite aside from the probable train wreck of her life, the post does illustrate how the upper-middle-class have an advantage over those of lower SES. There's a "game" in all of this, and if your parents don't know the rules, you start off several steps behind. The playing field is nowhere near level.

I wish I could like this 100x!
 
059a50d3bbecc85b12780a596b28d2b6.jpg
That second pic is like a more serious/strict version of my father, except I'm a girl. My brother and I have joked about that meme lol.
 
*some details in the following post may have been adjusted to maintain anonymity*



There was a girl I was tutoring in Ochem. She was smart and nice, but also one of the most frightening cases of helicopter parenting and casual over-achievement I have ever seen.

She was the kind of person who had never played a video game...never enjoyed a TV show...never read a book outside of class...never even had a hobby.

Getting into medical school was more than her hobby. It was her entire life.

Beginning in high school, she spent one summer working at a camp for deaf children. She spent the next at a camp for dyslexic children where they worked through Harry Potter. She spent some summers doing mission trips abroad. She worked in one local hospital in the OR (I'm still not sure what exactly she did...). She spent weekends at the local children's hospital. She was a contributing author on at least 2 research papers (I don't know where she found the time). At some point, she did water polo.

All of these are things her father scheduled for her or paid for or pushed her to do.

Her father was a plastic surgeon with connections. Determined to see his daughter not merely get into med school, but get a full ride into harvard. And somehow, even that would be a disappointment to him.



I was in their dining room discussing EWGs and EDGs and their effects on the reactivity of benzene when he stormed into the room. "What is this?" He yelled, holding up a calculus exam with the grade "B+"

"It was a tough test," she said.

"How can you fail so miserably when you have TWO calculus tutors?" He raged.

"It would be different if you allowed me to take an easy class or two--like Spanish."

"NO DAUGHTER OF MINE IS GOING TO VALIDATE THE MEXICAN INVASION BY LEARNING THEIR LANGUAGE!!" He tossed the calculus test on the table before us. "Your shift at xyz charitable services starts in an hour."

"I thought that was on saturday?" She said.

"The university premed society switched its meeting to saturdays. I had to switch around your other obligations."




That was the moment I realized: I was not competing with this girl for a spot in medical school. I was competing with her father.

Her millionaire, OCD, surgeon of a father.




She had a 3.95 GPA and a 96th %ile MCAT.

She shadowed 12 different physicians in 10 different specialties. (I saw the spreadsheet.)

She was the perfect premed. She checked every box and exceeded every expectation.

The only thing she didn't have was a desire to be a doctor.
i didn't know Trump was also a surgeon. props to him
 
"That was the moment I realized: I was not competing with this girl for a spot in medical school. I was competing with her father.
Her millionaire, OCD, surgeon of a father."


This poor girl has been so shaped, guided and molded that she's probably got no idea what she wants and/or how to react if things don't go her way. How will she ever learn resiliency if she's never allowed to fail.

Quite aside from the probable train wreck of her life, the post does illustrate how the upper-middle-class have an advantage over those of lower SES. There's a "game" in all of this, and if your parents don't know the rules, you start off several steps behind. The playing field is nowhere near level.

I can't agree with this enough! Anecdotally, my parents made me start taking SAT practice tests in 5th grade (how I turned out normal is a story for another time...), which allowed me to do well enough on the PSATs to get a full tuition scholarship to my university. There are a couple of freshmen in my lab who started within the first few weeks of college (!), and already had research experience in high school! One can imagine how their parents are most likely involved in academia.

Now, I'm all for taking advantage of all the opportunities in front of you and I really can't fault anyone for using their connections. However, like you said, it's good to recognize that everyone is not on a level playing field.
 
*some details in the following post may have been adjusted to maintain anonymity*



There was a girl I was tutoring in Ochem. She was smart and nice, but also one of the most frightening cases of helicopter parenting and casual over-achievement I have ever seen.

She was the kind of person who had never played a video game...never enjoyed a TV show...never read a book outside of class...never even had a hobby.

Getting into medical school was more than her hobby. It was her entire life.

Beginning in high school, she spent one summer working at a camp for deaf children. She spent the next at a camp for dyslexic children where they worked through Harry Potter. She spent some summers doing mission trips abroad. She worked in one local hospital in the OR (I'm still not sure what exactly she did...). She spent weekends at the local children's hospital. She was a contributing author on at least 2 research papers (I don't know where she found the time). At some point, she did water polo.

All of these are things her father scheduled for her or paid for or pushed her to do.

Her father was a plastic surgeon with connections. Determined to see his daughter not merely get into med school, but get a full ride into harvard. And somehow, even that would be a disappointment to him.



I was in their dining room discussing EWGs and EDGs and their effects on the reactivity of benzene when he stormed into the room. "What is this?" He yelled, holding up a calculus exam with the grade "B+"

"It was a tough test," she said.

"How can you fail so miserably when you have TWO calculus tutors?" He raged.

"It would be different if you allowed me to take an easy class or two--like Spanish."

"NO DAUGHTER OF MINE IS GOING TO VALIDATE THE MEXICAN INVASION BY LEARNING THEIR LANGUAGE!!" He tossed the calculus test on the table before us. "Your shift at xyz charitable services starts in an hour."

"I thought that was on saturday?" She said.

"The university premed society switched its meeting to saturdays. I had to switch around your other obligations."




That was the moment I realized: I was not competing with this girl for a spot in medical school. I was competing with her father.

Her millionaire, OCD, surgeon of a father.




She had a 3.95 GPA and a 96th %ile MCAT.

She shadowed 12 different physicians in 10 different specialties. (I saw the spreadsheet.)

She was the perfect premed. She checked every box and exceeded every expectation.

The only thing she didn't have was a desire to be a doctor.

What part of Asia is the family from?
 
There is a difference between being "authoritarian" and just being a good parent. A parent who provides direction and disciplines when necessary is absolutely key to a child's development. I don't think @md-2020 was saying that his parents were authoritative, I think he was just saying they provided direction, which is different. A parent who lets their kids do whatever they want with out any disregard to consequences is just as likely to have a child make very poor life choices as the authoritative parent whose child revolts. It's all about balance and consistency, knowing when to provide guidance and when to lay back and let the child learn from experience.

I agree with everything you said by the way, just wanted to clarify some points.

you should probably go brush up on the definitions of authoritarian and authoritative. There's a substantial difference, especially when we're talking social science research.
 
I've met a few people in this situation. Adcoms usually try to screen for it.
 
had a kid I tutored whose parent made her go to a private school and do extracurriculars. I could sense that the first time I went to their home, the daughter was clearly very rebellious. Books aside, if there was one thing I would tell people about their children is to get a tutor so that their attitude doesn't go to passive aggression. They're all good kids and parents but a kid's aggression is very important to take into account because while they are still kids, you can improve on it. Once they become adults, they get hit on the head for something they haven't been disciplined which isn't entirely their fault.
 
had a kid I tutored whose parent made her go to a private school and do extracurriculars. I could sense that the first time I went to their home, the daughter was clearly very rebellious. Books aside, if there was one thing I would tell people about their children is to get a tutor so that their attitude doesn't go to passive aggression. They're all good kids and parents but a kid's aggression is very important to take into account because while they are still kids, you can improve on it. Once they become adults, they get hit on the head for something they haven't been disciplined which isn't entirely their fault.
wat?
 
I don't necessarily find most of these "private-tutoring" obsessed parents crazy like OP stated. I feel they personally do a lot for their kids but at the end of the spectrum where the kid is at, I think they get spoiled to some extent. They don't find meaning behind the stuff they are doing and they do vocalize those concerns (unlike the kid OP mentioned). In my experience, I don't find the kids quietly accepting their parent's decision and usually show passive aggression towards them. This is not good. A parent and child must have a good understanding with each other on the extent of how much work they can handle. Making kids overachievers is fine but it should be done under their terms as well otherwise, I can only tell that as soon as they go off to college, god knows what will happen.
 
I don't necessarily find most of these "private-tutoring" obsessed parents crazy like OP stated. I feel they personally do a lot for their kids but at the end of the spectrum where the kid is at, I think they get spoiled to some extent. They don't find meaning behind the stuff they are doing and they do vocalize those concerns (unlike the kid OP mentioned). In my experience, I don't find the kids quietly accepting their parent's decision and usually show passive aggression towards them. This is not good. A parent and child must have a good understanding with each other on the extent of how much work they can handle. Making kids overachievers is fine but it should be done under their terms as well otherwise, I can only tell that as soon as they go off to college, god knows what will happen.

I think we read different stories.
 
What part of Asia is the family from?


Condescending racist pricks on SDN? No surprise, it's a weekly occurrence.

""NO DAUGHTER OF MINE IS GOING TO VALIDATE THE MEXICAN INVASION BY LEARNING THEIR LANGUAGE!!"
is a phrase uttered by inbreds like yourself not a self-respecting immigrant from Asia.
 
Failed case of helicopter parenting right here, either that or narcissistic parenting. At this point I wonder, helicopter parent, narcissistic, or sadists that takes a lot of pleasure in killing the career of their kids.

Dad wasn't good enough to be a doctor so he did all he could do to try and make me into a doctor. Instead of going to a regular high school, I was sent to some specialized science school where the education was not even all that great (most kids did not get into a respectable university, hardly any did and average SAT scores were low). Worst years of my life hands down. Parents were overly protective maniacs too, that made matters much worse.

Did manage to get into a decent university but got sweet-talked into commuting instead. Thought okay, maybe I get a high GPA and get into an even better university as a transfer (that is what he tried to push on to me). Could have fought against him and went away for college, those would have been the best 4 years of my life. Commuting sucks and I went to a commuter campus where it was hard to make friends or have much of a social life.

Thought okay why not, little did I know the guy made me major in Biochem and after 2 semester of a GPA well below med school standards, he kept on pushing me into it and said it was my only way of having a future or getting a job. Like the girl in OP's dad, my dad is also a maniac who throws temper tantrums when he does not get what he wants, the type to bring up doomsday scenarios if med school does not happen.

Long story short, after horrible grades in upper level sciences, I graduated with a 2.4 GPA (upward trend though! Hence the name!!!). Well, here I sit having graduated college recently and severely depressed.

It's one thing to graduate college with a poor GPA knowing that you messed around too much, it is another graduating college with a low GPA as a science major knowing that it was never really your preference in the first place. I am in my early 20s and even though I graduated college, I feel like my life is practically over because that number is going to follow me around everywhere. Forget med school, even business, law, and any job that I could have made a lot of money from will not look twice at me. Some days I literally do wish that I die because I lost life on both counts, poor grades that will haunt me forever on one and lack of a fun social life due to helicopter parents on another.

I've learned that the most unfair advantage a person can ever have in life are good parents, I was not fortunate enough to have those. My friends had parents that let them pursue their passions in life and they are enjoying life right now. Some of them had easier majors in college and are working decent jobs in big cities as consultants and for non-profits.

The worst part about it all, my parents literally had no idea about how any of this works. They wanted me to be a doctor so they could brag to their friends about how their son was a doctor. No idea what doctors do other than the fact that they make a lot of money, such awful human beings that some days I wish I was raised in an orphanage.

Ya I know, everyone here will think I am some ungrateful brat but I literally do wish I had parents that gave me more freedom past the age of 18 rather than these god awful monsters who have ruined me. Not something I like to say but life is so unfair. I want to break into finance as that has always been my passion but unfortunately, Wall Street cares a lot about my low GPA in science classes to where I will never work there.
 
Failed case of helicopter parenting right here, either that or narcissistic parenting. At this point I wonder, helicopter parent, narcissistic, or sadists that takes a lot of pleasure in killing the career of their kids.

Dad wasn't good enough to be a doctor so he did all he could do to try and make me into a doctor. Instead of going to a regular high school, I was sent to some specialized science school where the education was not even all that great (most kids did not get into a respectable university, hardly any did and average SAT scores were low). Worst years of my life hands down. Parents were overly protective maniacs too, that made matters much worse.

Did manage to get into a decent university but got sweet-talked into commuting instead. Thought okay, maybe I get a high GPA and get into an even better university as a transfer (that is what he tried to push on to me). Could have fought against him and went away for college, those would have been the best 4 years of my life. Commuting sucks and I went to a commuter campus where it was hard to make friends or have much of a social life.

Thought okay why not, little did I know the guy made me major in Biochem and after 2 semester of a GPA well below med school standards, he kept on pushing me into it and said it was my only way of having a future or getting a job. Like the girl in OP's dad, my dad is also a maniac who throws temper tantrums when he does not get what he wants, the type to bring up doomsday scenarios if med school does not happen.

Long story short, after horrible grades in upper level sciences, I graduated with a 2.4 GPA (upward trend though! Hence the name!!!). Well, here I sit having graduated college recently and severely depressed.

It's one thing to graduate college with a poor GPA knowing that you messed around too much, it is another graduating college with a low GPA as a science major knowing that it was never really your preference in the first place. I am in my early 20s and even though I graduated college, I feel like my life is practically over because that number is going to follow me around everywhere. Forget med school, even business, law, and any job that I could have made a lot of money from will not look twice at me. Some days I literally do wish that I die because I lost life on both counts, poor grades that will haunt me forever on one and lack of a fun social life due to helicopter parents on another.

I've learned that the most unfair advantage a person can ever have in life are good parents, I was not fortunate enough to have those. My friends had parents that let them pursue their passions in life and they are enjoying life right now. Some of them had easier majors in college and are working decent jobs in big cities as consultants and for non-profits.

The worst part about it all, my parents literally had no idea about how any of this works. They wanted me to be a doctor so they could brag to their friends about how their son was a doctor. No idea what doctors do other than the fact that they make a lot of money, such awful human beings that some days I wish I was raised in an orphanage.

Ya I know, everyone here will think I am some ungrateful brat but I literally do wish I had parents that gave me more freedom past the age of 18 rather than these god awful monsters who have ruined me. Not something I like to say but life is so unfair. I want to break into finance as that has always been my passion but unfortunately, Wall Street cares a lot about my low GPA in science classes to where I will never work there.

Not to derail the thread but if medicine is not your calling it would be wise to get out now. If you find that it is, medical school could still be a viable option assuming you retake classes and do well on your mcat. DO schools would be receptive to a cathartic applicant! Anyways I wish you the best in whatever direction you choose to go.
 
If I were her, I would just step away and use her talents and passion elsewhere. There nothing worse than a doctor who just going through the motions.
 
Not to derail the thread but if medicine is not your calling it would be wise to get out now. If you find that it is, medical school could still be a viable option assuming you retake classes and do well on your mcat. DO schools would be receptive to a cathartic applicant! Anyways I wish you the best in whatever direction you choose to go.

Finance is where my heart leads me but unfortunately finance only cares about GPA 🙁
 
Finance is where my heart leads me but unfortunately finance only cares about GPA 🙁

I'd look into acing the GMAT and trying to get an MBA and eventually focus on the aspects of finance! There's always a way!
 
$200k for an education that allows you to enter a field where you'll be earning around that much per year on the low end doesn't seem so bad...

It's not $200k. It's $200k of tuition debt plus a decade of lost earnings and investments. The "time value of money" is the most significant cost in a field of deferred earnings, not the tuition. The $200k you are spending today is worth a LOT more than the $200k you'll get ten years from now. Enough that your break even point is many years later than you apparently think it is. Until you understand this concept (that future money is only worth pennies on the dollar of present money) you are what finance wonks call a "rube" and ripe to be ripped off.
 
Was this supposed to scare me? Sounds great - she will prob cry at her interview.

I think the point is a lot of successful applicants have help that others dont have access to, although it usually not at the level of the OP. Its not something that is talked about a lot but I have seen it myself. When I ask a lot of my friends how they got the opportunity to do some awesome unique medically related things on their CV, the answer usually ends up being through a connection from their parents. And given the huge importance placed on ECs this ends up having a huge impact. Its probably why the majority of matriculants have parents with graduate level degrees. The system wont change so there is no use complaining about it, but it is useful for the rest of us to know what we are going up against.
 
Hm so will medical schools care that my parents didn't go to college?
 
Failed case of helicopter parenting right here, either that or narcissistic parenting. At this point I wonder, helicopter parent, narcissistic, or sadists that takes a lot of pleasure in killing the career of their kids.

Dad wasn't good enough to be a doctor so he did all he could do to try and make me into a doctor. Instead of going to a regular high school, I was sent to some specialized science school where the education was not even all that great (most kids did not get into a respectable university, hardly any did and average SAT scores were low). Worst years of my life hands down. Parents were overly protective maniacs too, that made matters much worse.

Did manage to get into a decent university but got sweet-talked into commuting instead. Thought okay, maybe I get a high GPA and get into an even better university as a transfer (that is what he tried to push on to me). Could have fought against him and went away for college, those would have been the best 4 years of my life. Commuting sucks and I went to a commuter campus where it was hard to make friends or have much of a social life.

Thought okay why not, little did I know the guy made me major in Biochem and after 2 semester of a GPA well below med school standards, he kept on pushing me into it and said it was my only way of having a future or getting a job. Like the girl in OP's dad, my dad is also a maniac who throws temper tantrums when he does not get what he wants, the type to bring up doomsday scenarios if med school does not happen.

Long story short, after horrible grades in upper level sciences, I graduated with a 2.4 GPA (upward trend though! Hence the name!!!). Well, here I sit having graduated college recently and severely depressed.

It's one thing to graduate college with a poor GPA knowing that you messed around too much, it is another graduating college with a low GPA as a science major knowing that it was never really your preference in the first place. I am in my early 20s and even though I graduated college, I feel like my life is practically over because that number is going to follow me around everywhere. Forget med school, even business, law, and any job that I could have made a lot of money from will not look twice at me. Some days I literally do wish that I die because I lost life on both counts, poor grades that will haunt me forever on one and lack of a fun social life due to helicopter parents on another.

I've learned that the most unfair advantage a person can ever have in life are good parents, I was not fortunate enough to have those. My friends had parents that let them pursue their passions in life and they are enjoying life right now. Some of them had easier majors in college and are working decent jobs in big cities as consultants and for non-profits.

The worst part about it all, my parents literally had no idea about how any of this works. They wanted me to be a doctor so they could brag to their friends about how their son was a doctor. No idea what doctors do other than the fact that they make a lot of money, such awful human beings that some days I wish I was raised in an orphanage.

Ya I know, everyone here will think I am some ungrateful brat but I literally do wish I had parents that gave me more freedom past the age of 18 rather than these god awful monsters who have ruined me. Not something I like to say but life is so unfair. I want to break into finance as that has always been my passion but unfortunately, Wall Street cares a lot about my low GPA in science classes to where I will never work there.

You did not fail in college because of your parents. You will never succeed in life until you own your failures and start learning from them. Grow up and stop blaming your parents.
 
If I were her, I would just step away and use her talents and passion elsewhere. There nothing worse than a doctor who just going through the motions.
Much easier said than done. Her life has been planned from Day 1 and she likely has little autonomy. She's being set up for failure. I hope she can break out, but it's going to be very difficult and will come with its own set of consequences.
 
Failed case of helicopter parenting right here, either that or narcissistic parenting. At this point I wonder, helicopter parent, narcissistic, or sadists that takes a lot of pleasure in killing the career of their kids.

That sounds just awful @Upwardtrendfornow and I'm sorry for what they put you through -- But please don't give up now. It's not over until you do give up, so if you don't give up, it's not over.

Can you scrape together enough money for a one-way plane ticket to Europe (or the other side of the country) and a backpack? Just go. Take a year off. Find yourself. Do odd jobs for enough money to eat and sleep in doorways if necessary. Just get far enough away to where your parents no longer have any influence and you can gain some perspective on your own life.

You were relentlessly pushed into a mold that didn't fit and you rebelled passive-aggressively -- shooting yourself in the foot in the process. The foot-shot is on you, but it's certainly not fatal. You want finance? Go take some finance classes. They're GPA-obsessed? Ace your finance classes. An upward trend in finance is just as persuasive as an upward trend in pre-med. Sure, you'll be a few years behind your age-mates. But so what. If you don't give up, it's not over.
 
Failed case of helicopter parenting right here, either that or narcissistic parenting. At this point I wonder, helicopter parent, narcissistic, or sadists that takes a lot of pleasure in killing the career of their kids.

Dad wasn't good enough to be a doctor so he did all he could do to try and make me into a doctor. Instead of going to a regular high school, I was sent to some specialized science school where the education was not even all that great (most kids did not get into a respectable university, hardly any did and average SAT scores were low). Worst years of my life hands down. Parents were overly protective maniacs too, that made matters much worse.

Did manage to get into a decent university but got sweet-talked into commuting instead. Thought okay, maybe I get a high GPA and get into an even better university as a transfer (that is what he tried to push on to me). Could have fought against him and went away for college, those would have been the best 4 years of my life. Commuting sucks and I went to a commuter campus where it was hard to make friends or have much of a social life.

Thought okay why not, little did I know the guy made me major in Biochem and after 2 semester of a GPA well below med school standards, he kept on pushing me into it and said it was my only way of having a future or getting a job. Like the girl in OP's dad, my dad is also a maniac who throws temper tantrums when he does not get what he wants, the type to bring up doomsday scenarios if med school does not happen.

Long story short, after horrible grades in upper level sciences, I graduated with a 2.4 GPA (upward trend though! Hence the name!!!). Well, here I sit having graduated college recently and severely depressed.

It's one thing to graduate college with a poor GPA knowing that you messed around too much, it is another graduating college with a low GPA as a science major knowing that it was never really your preference in the first place. I am in my early 20s and even though I graduated college, I feel like my life is practically over because that number is going to follow me around everywhere. Forget med school, even business, law, and any job that I could have made a lot of money from will not look twice at me. Some days I literally do wish that I die because I lost life on both counts, poor grades that will haunt me forever on one and lack of a fun social life due to helicopter parents on another.

I've learned that the most unfair advantage a person can ever have in life are good parents, I was not fortunate enough to have those. My friends had parents that let them pursue their passions in life and they are enjoying life right now. Some of them had easier majors in college and are working decent jobs in big cities as consultants and for non-profits.

The worst part about it all, my parents literally had no idea about how any of this works. They wanted me to be a doctor so they could brag to their friends about how their son was a doctor. No idea what doctors do other than the fact that they make a lot of money, such awful human beings that some days I wish I was raised in an orphanage.

Ya I know, everyone here will think I am some ungrateful brat but I literally do wish I had parents that gave me more freedom past the age of 18 rather than these god awful monsters who have ruined me. Not something I like to say but life is so unfair. I want to break into finance as that has always been my passion but unfortunately, Wall Street cares a lot about my low GPA in science classes to where I will never work there.

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