thoughts on Kaiser Med School

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ducks_are _the best

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Wondering everyone's thoughts on the new medical school at Kaiser? Is it true that you would have to do residency at Kaiser or would match rates to local hospitals like UCLA/USC be similar to other local schools like Loyola/UCR/UCI? What are everyone's pros and cons on the school
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All that really matters tbh.
There’s no mandatory match or anything like that. No one knows what their matches will look like, but ultimately they will enter the same matching system (NRMP) as everybody else, and hopefully they get their first choices.. just like everyone else. That being said, being in the Kaiser system for med school is not necessarily a bad thing. They will probably get a fantastic clinical education, and they offer free transportation to those sites for all their students. Plus, with so many in-house specialties, their students might be at a specific advantage to earn those spots and/or get strong letters of rec from their directors—not all schools can say the same.
 
The students that are choosing to go to Kaiser are smart - their average MCAT is a 516 with a GPA of 3.78 (actually lower than I'd expect). They're going to have a lot set up for them and they are not locked into residency in the Kaiser system by any means... No one really knows how the inaugural class will do but my guess is they'll do well, that said they're also the guinea pig class for pass/fail step 1, so it adds some confounding variables in when we do see what happens in 4 years. I don't know anyone personally who goes there but my friends who interviewed there last year said it felt "very corporate" and they didn't like that environment. At the end of the day, it's a US MD school with free tuition in California. They'll be just fine.
 
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There is something like $3B pledged to the medical education division.
Huge amount of focus and on the design of the education and personal attention for everyone to succeed. And you actually get paid to go there! The tuition, fees, housing, food, technology and misc expenses are paid for by Tyson School for each student.

That said, if you are huge financial aid recipient at a top 10 or 20, or financially wealthy, your path to residency will probably be easier and without the significant benefit of the huge cost difference.
 
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ducks_are _the best said:
Wondering everyone's thoughts on the new medical school at Kaiser? Is it true that you would have to do residency at Kaiser or would match rates to local hospitals like UCLA/USC be similar to other local schools like Loyola/UCR/UCI? What are everyone's pros and cons on the school
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It's very competitive, has small class size, and based upon stats, and given the free tuition they're offering, AND being in CA, I normally only recommend it to people from CA.
 
Goro said:
It's very competitive, has small class size, and based upon stats, and given the free tuition they're offering, AND being in CA, I normally only recommend it to people from CA.
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???? Because what percent of the class is from CA, as compared to other CA schools? Do you normally recommend all CA schools only to people from CA? I'm sure the odds are low for everyone, due to the small class size and the free tuition, but is there really a bigger CA bias here than at other CA schools, or is that not a factor in your recommendation?
 
Goro said:
It's very competitive, has small class size, and based upon stats, and given the free tuition they're offering, AND being in CA, I normally only recommend it to people from CA.
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Their class was quite geographically diverse. Competitive students from anywhere should apply for this jackpot of an Acceptance.
 
Goro said:
I lean to the cautious side upon reading this. What do you think?
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I’m always on the cautious side when it comes to med school apps. Fighting for 25 spots is tough. Especially when you look at the schools they accepted students from and see that most of them are ivies, ivy-esques (Stanford, NYU, Chicago), and UCs. If you’re a non-ivy OOSer, I would spend my time and money on a more likely secondary.
 
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Do you all feel any difficulty to get into residency spots for lets say surgery or oncology in the LA area (UCLA/USC/outside kaiser system)?
 
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m1redsox said:
I’m always on the cautious side when it comes to med school apps. Fighting for 25 spots is tough. Especially when you look at the schools they accepted students from and see that most of them are ivies, ivy-esques (Stanford, NYU, Chicago), and UCs. If you’re a non-ivy OOSer, I would spend my time and money on a more likely secondary.
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Odds for OOS are still Significantly better than winning $400k in a lottery.
Plus their fee was less than others I believe.
 
proudofmykids said:
Odds for OOS are still Significantly better than winning $400k in a lottery.
Plus their fee was less than others I believe.
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Yes their secondary was only $50, but if winning the lottery is going to be your only criteria, then you might as well apply to NYU too while you’re at it. The fact of the matter remains that if you’re a non-ivy OOS white or Asian kid with a 3.7/512, you probably don’t have a shot at one of the 25 spots they have. If you spend all your time on unlikely secondaries, then you turn in your friendlier OOS schools’ secondaries later and potentially forego your better chances. Applicants’ priorities should be getting into ANY medical school since only 40% of people achieve that feat, and those chances are maximized by applying correctly. That being said, if you have a 518/3.9, or you went ivy, or you are URM with decent stats, then shoot your shot! But I’m speaking to the average applicant who wastes their time and money on crazy reaches with few seats.
 
m1redsox said:
Yes their secondary was only $50, but if winning the lottery is going to be your only criteria, then you might as well apply to NYU too while you’re at it. The fact of the matter remains that if you’re a non-ivy OOS white or Asian kid with a 3.7/512, you probably don’t have a shot at one of the 25 spots they have. If you spend all your time on unlikely secondaries, then you turn in your friendlier OOS schools’ secondaries later and potentially forego your better chances. Applicants’ priorities should be getting into ANY medical school since only 40% of people achieve that feat, and those chances are maximized by applying correctly. That being said, if you have a 518/3.9, or you went ivy, or you are URM with decent stats, then shoot your shot! But I’m speaking to the average applicant who wastes their time and money on crazy reaches with few seats.
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Very fair points, and I am not normally in the business of defending @proudofmykids, especially because I think it's ridiculous to analogize med school admissions to a random lottery. That said, there are worse ways to spend $50 than to take a shot, however unlikely, at a free medical school education. Not to the exclusion of friendlier secondaries, but as an additional application. If they take even one white or Asian applicant with less than spectacular stats (and I'm sure they have) there is no reason it can't be you. Unless, of course, you don't apply! 😎
 
ok but straying away from stats, what would you do if lets say you get the A at here vs an ivy league medical school? What are your recs for someone looking to do global health research/focus on a surgical specialty like surg oncology?
 
m1redsox said:
Yes their secondary was only $50, but if winning the lottery is going to be your only criteria, then you might as well apply to NYU too while you’re at it. The fact of the matter remains that if you’re a non-ivy OOS white or Asian kid with a 3.7/512, you probably don’t have a shot at one of the 25 spots they have. If you spend all your time on unlikely secondaries, then you turn in your friendlier OOS schools’ secondaries later and potentially forego your better chances. Applicants’ priorities should be getting into ANY medical school since only 40% of people achieve that feat, and those chances are maximized by applying correctly. That being said, if you have a 518/3.9, or you went ivy, or you are URM with decent stats, then shoot your shot! But I’m speaking to the average applicant who wastes their time and money on crazy reaches with few seats.
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There is a very key difference you are overlooking when you say 'might as well shoot your shot at NYU too.'
Going from memory, NYU 10th percentile MCAT is something like a 521 where as Kaiser is like 511. If 521 is about 98%ile, there are only 1000 total applicants with that score, so if you are well below, you would be competing for only 10 spots. At Kaiser you would at least have a chance for 2.5x as many spots.
I encourage shooting your shot. And if hardship, Kaoser was generous waiving app fees etc.

Disclosure: zero affiliation with Kaiser except my kid was accepted but innthe end not enrolled to Kaiser.
 
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proudofmykids said:
There is a very key difference you are overlooking when you say 'might as well shoot yournshotmat NYU too.'
Going from memory, NYU 10th percentile MCAT is something like a 521 where as Kaiser is like 511. If 521 is about 98%ile, there are only 1000 total applicants with that score, so if you are well below, you would be competing for only 10 spots. At Kaiser you would at least have a chance for 2.5x as many spots.
I encourage shooting your shot. And if hardship, Kaoser was generous waiving app fees etc.

Disclosure: zero affiliation with Kaiser except my kid was accepted but innthe end not enrolled to Kaiser.
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Pretty bad memory! 🙂 NYU's median is 522. EVERYONE would have to have a 522 for their 10%-ile to be 521! 🙂 For the record, it's 516.

MSAR hasn't published Kaiser data yet, so I'm not sure where that comes from. Given that NYU has twice as many spots, with an MCAT that's a few points higher, your shot would probably be the same at both (around 0% with a 510, and progressively higher from there).

Also, not to nitpick, but while around 50,000 people apply every year, around 70,000 people every year take the test. So 98%-ile puts you in the top 1,400, not 1,000! The 20,000 people taking the test and not applying every year are NOT the top 2%! 😎
 
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ducks_are _the best said:
ok but straying away from stats, what would you do if lets say you get the A at here vs an ivy league medical school? What are your recs for someone looking to do global health research/focus on a surgical specialty like surg oncology?
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Use your own threshold for debt tolerance. If zero aid at ivy, most would say no brainier choose Kaiser over $400k debt. Some would say same for 1/2 tuition at Ivy which would still be $266k debt.

@KnightDoc the Only reason the lottery was used for the analogy, is that most med schools admit 80%+ of their applicants would succeed at their school. Haven't you heard the admissions tales of how Interviees and admissions are allocated? Which files from stack landed on the floor face up, under/over on number of letters in the name etc. The only reason was because there are too many qualified applicants and they could pick nearly anyone for any reason over another applocant.
 
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m1redsox said:
According to the website, half were from CA, half OOS. 25/25.
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Did they publish where not only matriculated, but accepted students were from? I recall several "school X vs Y" about Kaiser last year, and they were almost all comparing established, competitive, prestige schools to Kaiser. I would imagine that if your average kid from Indiana were comparing Yale and Kaiser, Yale would win out. But that same kid from LA, who wants to stay in CA, might be willing to overlook the prestige of Yale to not only get the benefits of Kaiser, but also to stay home.

So basically, did they accept 50% California residents, or did they accept a broader demographic, but the CA residents were the ones willing to overlook the benefits of the more established schools to seize an opportunity closer to home, while the students from the other 49 states felt more compelled to pursue the more "sure thing" of the old guard power house schools, ultimately leading to a 50% yield of CA residents?
 
proudofmykids said:
Use your own threshold for debt tolerance. If zero aid at ivy, most would say no brainier choose Kaiser over $400k debt. Some would say same for 1/2 tuition at Ivy which would still be $266k debt.

@KnightDoc the Onky reason the lottery was used for the analogy, is that most med schools admit 80%+ of their applicants would succeed at their school. Haven't you heard the admissions tales of how Interviees and admissions are allocated? Which files from stack landed on the floor face up, under/over on number of letters in the name etc. Nomrealoy, the only reason was because there are too,many qualified applicants and they could pick nearly anyone for any reason over another applocant.
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Nope. I don't believe it. How did your daughter do last year? Do you really think it was blind luck, and that it could have been her, or any random 4 out of 5 applicants, at each of the schools? Have you or anyone in your family every been that lucky before in anything in your lives?

You should be "proud of your kid" because what she achieved was a genuine accomplishment, not a result of blind luck after weeding out the unqualified 20%. And of the unlucky 60%, only 1/3 of them were unqualified, and the rest just had really bad luck, everywhere? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I don't mean to suggest that everyone who is rejected could not be successful in med school. But I am definitely saying that, other than at the margins, admissions is not a random lottery as you are suggesting.
 
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KnightDoc said:
Pretty bad memory! 🙂 NYU's median is 522. EVERYONE would have to have a 522 for their 10%-ile to be 521! 🙂 For the record, it's 516.

MSAR hasn't published Kaiser data yet, so I'm not sure where that comes from. Given that NYU has twice as many spots, with an MCAT that's a few points higher, your shot would probably be the same at both (around 0% with a 510, and progressively higher from there).

Also, not to nitpick, but while around 50,000 people apply every year, around 70,000 people every year take the test. So 98%-ile puts you in the top 1,400, not 1,000! The 20,000 people taking the test and not applying every year are NOT the top 2%! 😎
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Thanks for the corrections. Despite wanting to pay the info forward, I've been around a lot less, my data recall has gotten rusty ;-) I moved and dealing with rehab projects. Also, I didn't realize here were 70k takers a year, I though it was 50-55 and 40-45k apply.

BTW, it's been seen that MSAR can get data reported incorrectly.
What does it show for NYI 10,25,50,75,90 percentile Mcat accepted vs matriculated?

I seem to recall one of he schools I was familiar with had significant descreoancies between MSAR and what Dean Rivera shared with accepted / matriculating students.
 
CHIOTR said:
Did they publish where not only matriculated, but accepted students were from? I recall several "school X vs Y" about Kaiser last year, and they were almost all comparing established, competitive, prestige schools to Kaiser. I would imagine that if your average kid from Indiana were comparing Yale and Kaiser, Yale would win out. But that same kid from LA, who wants to stay in CA, might be willing to overlook the prestige of Yale to not only get the benefits of Kaiser, but also to stay home.

So basically, did they accept 50% California residents, or did they accept a broader demographic, but the CA residents were the ones willing to overlook the benefits of the more established schools to seize an opportunity closer to home, while the students from the other 49 states felt more compelled to pursue the more "sure thing" of the old guard power house schools, ultimately leading to a 50% yield of CA residents?
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I dont recall the geographic difference between acceptance and Geo. For higher stat applicants and those also accepted into Ivies like your scenario,I truly be believe Geo played very little difference in the end decisions ofmwhere to matriculate. First order was definitely debt load. Realize that full-need based fin aid stidents would likely reduce risk and attend the established higher reputation school if receiving large aid from them. Also factoring into the decision is desired area of specialization for residency. More competitive residencies would also raise the desirability of the established schools' track record.

Remember, Kaiser does have a lot on the line, with the entire KP health system behind their program,mthere are very few specialties that put the LA school location at a disadvantage to getting into residency in the desired area of specialization. The administration has a ton riding in the success of the first four graduating classes. Their success will set the bar for the caliber of student that will want the Kaiser program, when not 100% free. As such each student will get the heavy support from the administration and faculty, and respective network of contacts to help insure success. Info fully believe this last part after my kid participated in accepted student zoom calls as well as access toinfo from matriculated zoom calls.

I dont agree with your Indiana/Yale example from the X vs Y threads being heavily Geo driven decision. Similarly for the Cali resident / Kaiser typical accepted decision.

Ironically, is youdo look at last year's Kaiser thread, the state of accepted students significantly rose throughout the cycle. I don't know,what to attribute this to, Kaiser might have been surprised on the traction that Free give them,
Or they focused on broader stat primary care or Heavy Service expressed focus applicants first; I don't know.
 
proudofmykids said:
Thanks for the corrections. Despite wanting to pay the info forward, I've been around a lot less, my data recall has gotten rusty ;-) I moved and dealing with rehab projects. Also, I didn't realize here were 70k takers a year, I though it was 50-55 and 40-45k apply.

BTW, it's been seen that MSAR can get data reported incorrectly.
What does it show for NYI 10,25,50,75,90 percentile Mcat accepted vs matriculated?

I seem to recall one of he schools I was familiar with had significant descreoancies between MSAR and what Dean Rivera shared with accepted / matriculating students.
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MSAR data is usually very good. If there are discrepancies, it's because they are typically a year behind. They will be updating soon, and the new data will be for the last cycle, the data Dean Rivera shared with you months ago. The data we have available now is for the year before that.
 
KnightDoc said:
Nope. I don't believe it. How did your daughter do last year? Do you really think it was blind luck, and that it could have been her, or any random 4 out of 5 applicants, at each of the schools? Have you or anyone in your family every been that lucky before in anything in your lives?

You should be "proud of your kid" because what she achieved was a genuine accomplishment, not a result of blind luck after weeding out the unqualified 20%. And of the unlucky 60%, only 1/3 of them were unqualified, and the rest just had really bad luck, everywhere? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I don't mean to suggest that everyone who is rejected could not be successful in med school. But I am definitely saying that, other than at the margins, admissions is not a random lottery as you are suggesting.
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Certainly you don't think I implied full randomness? (and really I first broughtupmLottery more to demonstrate the odds). I mentioned which way the piles fell, each of those piles do have tremendous differentiation within them, it's just that there are still too many over qualified students for each individualmschool to offer the Acceptance. Do remember, that there is a ton of movement of off wait lists leading to acceptances at the Top 10 and 20 schools! Way moremthsn the average person would think. But during last cycle I tried to provide comfort to those v. high stat students to be optimistic. I'm going to stay with my 50k representation of tyoicaomyesr mcst takers... THere are only about 3000 students who matriculate at T20 school. Most of those who got Acceptances prior to PTE and CTE dates, heavily correlate to Stats. Top 3 percent wouldn't come close to filling all spots. Plus there are reduced high stat spots for non high stat desirable URM, military and athletes to get accepted. So in the beginning out of the top high stat pool of X students, maybe the Top 20 programs only offered acceptances to 1500 most outstanding applicant- w/ high stats, leaving X-2000 to CTE so the individual school could then make a lot of WL acdeptances. Definitely not full randomness, but certainly many strong stat qualified candidates to choose from in the end. Top 10 percent still creates a very challenging pool to whittle down for first pass acceptance to T20,hence randomness analogy.
 
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