Thoughts on these programs

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elektroshok

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Hey everyone -

I wanted to get some input on these programs from people who visited/know/went there. I really had about the same 'gut feel' coming away from them and honestly have no idea how to start ranking them.

Mayo roch
Baylor Dallas
UTSW
U mich
MIR

As of right now I am thinking private practice initially, but who knows. Any input or thoughts are greatly appreciated.

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Personal opinion follows obviously. If you disagree, that's cool.

I interviewed at all except Baylor. Needless to say, all of those programs will get you into private practice gigs in their respective areas via connections you can make. For academics, it's hard to top MIR. Also U of Mich. I think the order should be MIR > U of Mich > Mayo > UTSW.

What am I basing this on? A combination of program quality and location. Mayo is a fantastic program but Rochester is not for everyone. They also skew toward midwestern white folk with families, and there is nothing wrong with that. That's just the people who can enjoy living in Rochester.

St. Louis as a city is not fantastic, but the surrounding area can be. Ann Arbor is a great college town, but it's super liberal and hipsterish. Dallas is a giant metropolis where you can get anything you want.

In my opinion, UTSW is trying to take the next step and become more like U of Mich or U of Washington. They aren't quite there yet, but they might get there in the future in terms of program strength.

You are better off just ranking based on location, since all these programs are great. The difference in location is much bigger than the difference in program quality.
 
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Academic reputation:
MIR> U of Mich> Mayo roch > UTSW > Baylor Dallas

Rank based on academic reputation + location together: MIR>= U of Mich > UTSW=Mayo > Baylor

Different locations means different to different people. People may tell you to rank Baylor over Mayo. Above is my personal opinion.
 
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How would you order these programs? Hopkins, MGH, BIDMC, MIR, Mayo Rochester, Michigan, UTSW, Thomas Jefferson, Wake Forest.

I'm debating Hopkins vs MGH as my #1 and #2. I'm from Texas so I will probably rank UTSW way higher than most people. Wouldn't mind leaving Texas for a program I loved though.
 
I'm debating Hopkins vs MGH as my #1 and #2. I'm from Texas so I will probably rank UTSW way higher than most people. Wouldn't mind leaving Texas for a program I loved though.

Let's predict what shark will say:
"Do you want to go back to Texas and practice? If so, UTSW. Otherwise, if you are looking at academia, JHU and MGH are likely very similar clinical training. I would give MGH the edge because it's in a better city, but if cost of living is important to you, Baltimore is a lot cheaper."
 
How on earth do residents afford rent in Boston? Especially since their moonlighting opportunities suck versus what I've seen at southern schools (where you can make 90-100k+). I can get a luxury loft in the nicest neighborhood in Dallas for the price of a s-hitty downtown Boston apartment.
 
How on earth do residents afford rent in Boston? Especially since their moonlighting opportunities suck versus what I've seen at southern schools (where you can make 90-100k+). I can get a luxury loft in the nicest neighborhood in Dallas for the price of a s-hitty downtown Boston apartment.

It's tough. I go to med school in a very high cost of living area, and I came from a VERY cheap cost of living city. You suck it up, get used to half your student budget going to housing, and rarely live alone. I imagine they adjust and don't have a car, just like most of my classmates. No car = all the money associated with a car (payment, insurance, gas, parking) can then go to rent, increasing the effective rent you can pay. I'd estimate few residents live alone, either with a significant other or roommate(s). It's not like Boston is some huge anomaly...most highly desirable cities have extremely high costs of living. SF, LA, SD, DC, NYC, BOS. Only really PHL and BWI on the eastern coast are "cheap".
 
Academic reputation:
MIR> U of Mich> Mayo roch > UTSW > Baylor Dallas

Rank based on academic reputation + location together: MIR>= U of Mich > UTSW=Mayo > Baylor

Different locations means different to different people. People may tell you to rank Baylor over Mayo. Above is my personal opinion.

Where would you put Duke in the mix?

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Do you think the prestige of MGH/Hopkins is worth anything in a tight job market versus UTSW? Assuming you want to end up in North Texas doing private practice once you finish up your training.
 
Do you think the prestige of MGH/Hopkins is worth anything in a tight job market versus UTSW? Assuming you want to end up in North Texas doing private practice once you finish up your training.
If you wanna end up working in North Texas, just go with UTSW. Connections are key. I doubt the prestige of MGH/Hopkins matters much when you can get recommended for a job by someone the local groups know and trust.
 
Do you think the prestige of MGH/Hopkins is worth anything in a tight job market versus UTSW? Assuming you want to end up in North Texas doing private practice once you finish up your training.

For a pp job in north Texas, UTSW is as good as MGH/Hopkins. If you are a very sociable person, UTSW> MGH/Hopkins.

I personally don't miss the opportunity of going to MGH or Hopkins and rank them higher than UTSW.

For Academic or pseudoacademic job, MGH and Hopkins >>> UTSW.

Real life example: We hired a new associate a few months ago for next year. He was a junior resident to one of our current colleagues. The job never got advertised. They are close friends with each other. I also got my job in this way. Our group is a competitive group in a very competitive market. Our group policy is to hire people whom we know and trust as a team player. We want to make sure that if we hire someone, he is going to fit in the group. If I can not work the next whole week for a legit reason, I am sure that people will cover me by working their a$$ off without even mentioning it. This is the priority for our group. Someone may have the best CV from a TOP program, but may not fit into the system. Its all about connections and establishing mutual trust.
 
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Do you think the prestige of MGH/Hopkins is worth anything in a tight job market versus UTSW? Assuming you want to end up in North Texas doing private practice once you finish up your training.

No. If you leave Texas to go anywhere you will have an uphill battle getting back into the state to practice, competing with people that have not left and have proven they have no tendency of leaving. This goes for just about any state/area. My friend of mine who left Chicago for UCSF and now can't get a job in Chicago, while I know of many people who have stayed in Chicago have gotten jobs there, is just one of many examples I can think of. A practice will always look first and foremost at people who are rooted in the area and who have as little chance as any to not leave and mess up their practice.

I wish medical students would really think this stuff through, though in retrospect perhaps I didn't have someone who gave me this advice. But listen, this isn't college we are talking about here where you can just move back so easily. You are going to have to find a job after all this is said and done. I don't mean to be offensive so don't take this the wrong way, I'm just trying to help, but do medical students really believe that you will be able to read a CT or MRI that much better at one program over another? Do you believe attendings think you are "prestigious" and will pay you more when the RVUs are all the same for all of us? And that private practices actually care that you left the state and think you are hot **** and want to come back again? These things will HURT you--not help you. I can say as an actual attending that no one is impressed. Being a 4th year medical student, are you impressed where your fellow medical students went to college? Think about it.

Now, the flip side of this is if you want to practice in the Northeast, there is no question you should go to MGH. But if you want to practice in Alabama you should go to UAB. If you want to practice in Minnesota you should do everything possible to be at U of MN or Mayo. If you want to be in Arizona you need to do anything you can to match in Arizona. Etc. Etc.

You know what is the ultimate prestigious amazing CV? You are born and raised in the area and stayed in the same region or state for medical school, residency and fellowship, where everyone got used to you. The people at your program really love you and think you are a nice person, reliable and a hard worker, and most importantly they know the guy personally who owns the practice where you are now interviewing for a permanent job, and they can call him up on the phone and tell him as much. And you have a wife from here too. And your whole family is here. And you guys have a mortgage and a kid attending school and not only have no plans on leaving, you wouldn't even think about it. That's the ultimate CV.

This is a small world where everyone locally knows everybody locally, and every good PP job is one that is not advertised and where someone knows you. I remember interviewing at the most prestigious places in California and they were dead honest with me that they had no connections to any groups back home, and you need to listen to real advice like this. Because "rankings" are not real and exist only on Internet forums among medical students. The real life of leaving where you want to eventually get a job only to start all over again from scratch cold calling a bunch of random groups and hospitals that haven't heard of you and don't know the attendings that know you, and fight your way back to the state you already left all the while competing with known quantities who are already there and interviewing for jobs, is a fool's game. It is possible, just as anything's possible. It just won't be easy.
 
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How about going to MGH or Hopkins for residency then doing a fellowship at UTSW to start making local connections? Would that be better or worse for job prospects?

And the reverse scenario - going to UTSW for residency then MGH or some big name for fellowship?
 
Location is much more important coming out fellowship than out of residency. If you want to practice in Texas, better to do fellowship there, assuming that you wouldn't be sacrificing too much WRT program quality.
 
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Location is nice to think about, especially from perspective of where to practice but you know, sometimes you drop on your match list. I had all sorts of places in different regions I wanted to end up in and dropped to a good program, but in the state I was really hoping to escape. If there is a competitive job market you want to break into, then I'd rank the program there higher for the chance but if you come from small town and are interested in returning, I'd just pick the program that gives you the biggest warm and fuzzy feeling. There was an article in JACR a few months ago with projected job openings in different regions. I recall the northeast being one of the roughest.

People overanalyze things a lot. Go to the program where you felt the happiest around the people and that will give you a solid education. If you decide you want a specific region, academic over private or whatever else, you can make it happen. It may not be easy but challenges are far more tolerable when you're happy.
 
Anyone have any thoughts on dukes 3/2 program? I like it at face value but I also am slightly nervous about the possibility of wanting to do fellowship elsewhere and being locked in to Duke ..
 
Hey elektroshok,
Your concern is valid... I had the same sentiments when I was interviewing. That being said, I have heard the program director say that while they would hope that everyone finds the Duke fellowships on par with other top fellowships, realistically they know that in the normal ebb and flow of academia, that isn't always the case. For example, with Helms retiring and MRI volume down, the MSK fellowship isn't what it used to be. Similarly, the nucs division chief passed away recently and another top faculty member was recruited elsewhere. Overall, Duke fellowships are still phenomenal and most residents end up staying. But you don't have to worry about being "locked in." Of the current 4th year class, I think 3 or 4 are going to fellowships elsewhere and they have the full support of the PD.
 
Hey elektroshok,
Your concern is valid... I had the same sentiments when I was interviewing. That being said, I have heard the program director say that while they would hope that everyone finds the Duke fellowships on par with other top fellowships, realistically they know that in the normal ebb and flow of academia, that isn't always the case. For example, with Helms retiring and MRI volume down, the MSK fellowship isn't what it used to be. Similarly, the nucs division chief passed away recently and another top faculty member was recruited elsewhere. Overall, Duke fellowships are still phenomenal and most residents end up staying. But you don't have to worry about being "locked in." Of the current 4th year class, I think 3 or 4 are going to fellowships elsewhere and they have the full support of the PD.
 
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