Thoughts?

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sbopt87

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So I know obamacare has been discussed in every forum, but now that President Obama has been re-elected and that it will be official. How many people will be having 2nd thoughts about going into optometry school? or any other doctor related field?

I wonder if the effect on wage will change peoples minds. Being that is already expensive to go into school, and the amount of work it takes to get in and the amount of work while attending optometry school.

I know you are suppose to do what you love. I also understand you will still be making more money then most. I know Optometry isn't exactly a money maker.

Anyways I am wondering what people are thinking.
 
Do it if you love science, you love talking to people and don't mind making slightly more money than the general population but never being completely rich. And do it if it doesn't cost you $200,000 in loans. That's when it starts getting ridiculous.

I believe many talented individuals will start leaving the U.S.A. or will stop wanting to come here because of lower taxes and lower school costs elsewhere. We will no longer have the world's best healthcare system in the future. Even now many procedures that are beneficial to patients are allowed in the European Union but are far from being approved here in the U.S.A.

Too much government regulation stifles the economy.
 
I know you are suppose to do what you love. I also understand you will still be making more money then most. I know Optometry isn't exactly a money maker.

Anyways I am wondering what people are thinking.


Its not a money maker? I thought it was a pretty well paid job. Isn't the average starting 80K and the overall average is 95K a year?
 
I believe many talented individuals will start leaving the U.S.A. or will stop wanting to come here because of lower taxes and lower school costs elsewhere. We will no longer have the world's best healthcare system in the future. Even now many procedures that are beneficial to patients are allowed in the European Union but are far from being approved here in the U.S.A.

Too much government regulation stifles the economy.

agreed. Anyone else think it will hurt how many students will now be applying (or i guess above average students)? I know there are thousands that do apply, but will that change the expectations now?
 
I had written a response but I'm going to refrain from stating my political views. Instead I'll say that bottom line, I'm in this profession because I want to help others 🙂
 
agreed. Anyone else think it will hurt how many students will now be applying (or i guess above average students)? I know there are thousands that do apply, but will that change the expectations now?
i don't think it will deter many students from pursuing optometry. i am aware of the problems that this profession faces, but after thoroughly evaluating them, i have decided that it is still the right path for me. i did notice on my interview day, however, that a lot of the other applicants had an idealized view of the profession. from chatting with them, it didn't seem they were aware of many of the issues ODs are currently facing. i doubt many students will put a lot of thought into how the changing healthcare system will affect their future.
 
i don't think it will deter many students from pursuing optometry. i am aware of the problems that this profession faces, but after thoroughly evaluating them, i have decided that it is still the right path for me. i did notice on my interview day, however, that a lot of the other applicants had an idealized view of the profession. from chatting with them, it didn't seem they were aware of many of the issues ODs are currently facing. i doubt many students will put a lot of thought into how the changing healthcare system will affect their future.

How did you thoroughly evaluate the problems facing the profession? I can assure you that, while you might believe you are up on all that's going on, you can't possibly have a complete understanding of how it will affect you in the future. It's not a shortcoming on your part; there's simply no way to see the big picture until you've become a part of it. Unfortunately, it's those small (or large) gaps in understanding that will get you in the end. Most of the students I interviewed had confidence that they knew what they were getting into, but in reality they had no clue. When I was deciding on optometry, I thought I had it all figured out. It made perfect sense, and it looked right. I talked to ODs, I shadowed, I read articles. I thought I had it all down. I wouldn't be a millionaire, and I was ok with that, but I'd have a solid profession with a stable income and I wouldn't have to stress over finances, since I worked hard and put my time in. I could work anywhere in the country, maybe except for a couple of places. None of that was true and it's even less true now.

Optometry faces its own declining future, completely independent of the changing climate in health care. What you guys probably can't see, and this goes for all the pre-health professions, is that the entire face of health care is changing in ways you probably can't understand yet, since you haven't even started school.

The forces are in place to drive private practice health care out of existence. If you really look at Obamacare, not on the basis of its shiny selling points, but on the whole, you'll see a package that is designed to make it very difficult to stay alive as a private, independent doc. That goes for ODs as much as any other doctor. It won't happen overnight, but we'll slowly start to see a shift from private medicine, to institutional medicine, and from institutional medicine, to government institutional medicine. How or why is this going to happen? Primarily, it's a money issue. As usual, everything usually boils down to cash. You guys probably don't want to believe that right now, but that's the way the world works.

The Obamacare machine is going to be one of the most expensive endeavors ever undertaken by our government. The problem is, it's largely thought of as "free health care" by those who would benefit. It's no such thing. It's basically a giant tax machine, with health care providers putting the bulk of the money into the system. (Nancy and Harry like to tell you it's the insurance companies, but I can assure you, they're not going to experience much of a net loss of anything, they're far too smart to let that happen.) The primary target, if you read the law, will be providers. They don't spell that out in words, but when you see things like "increased efficiency of care," "reimbursement adjustments," and "reduction of provider overpayment," you're seeing the tip of the iceberg. As of now, medical specialists will see a 5.6% reimbursement cut, each year, for three years once the law is enacted. That's just shy of a 20% pay cut over three years. If you think it will stop there, you're crazy. The federal government, under a liberal mind's leadership, has no problem saying "Well, we'll just take a little more.....and then a little more....and then a little more." That's how it works. It's never about the direction we're moving, it's about the fact that "taking a little more right now won't hurt anyone, so we'll just take that aaaaaand put it over here for us." That's ok, though, because medical specialists are overpaid, right? Well, when you get out of medical school with 300 to 400K in student debt, you've worked your ass off for 15 or more years, and you see the government, time after time, reaching into your wallet to "spread the wealth around," it's going to get old. Where are you going to get the money to start or buy a practice when you've got massive debt, a lower income potential, and interest rates are through the roof because the economy has steadily declined? (...and it will, believe me, the great Obama has a couple of high-priority agenda items, but not one of them is the economy. If you don't see that in his decisions over the last 4 years, you're kidding yourself). Banks won't be letting some fresh-faced MD, or anyone else for that matter, borrow large sums of money to propagate private practice, because their risk will be too high. They'll know that as a doctor, you don't have the earning potential you once had.

Right now, government doctor salaries are lower than private incomes, but they know they have to compete, to some extend, with other practice modes, and government positions offer benefits that might outweigh the lower pay. Once we go to a health care system in which most/all doctors are employees of the federal government, we're going to see a disappearance of that need to compete. It'll be a "take it or leave it" pay scale. This is where we're going - it won't happen tomorrow or within Obama's next term, but it will happen.

I think many American's don't fully realize that what Obama is doing is not limited to his terms in office. It's not a "Hey, let's just see what this guy can do, and if he sucks, we'll just wait for the next guy to fix it." We saw what happens with that approach when we re-elected the last idiot in the White House. So, what I'm saying is, Obama is trying to make changes to our society's fabric that will be in place for the next 100 years, not the next 4. With that in mind, ask yourself what you think Obama's dream would be, with regard to health care. Do you think he would prefer what we have now, lot's of private docs, hospitals, and clinics, with a few government facilities? Or would he rather see a nation with government-controlled facilities, all under the hand of Uncle Sam? Obama's answer to every problem is "Let's create some government control and fix the problem."

You guys who are entering health care will be the future providers for our nation. My fear is that about 90% of you think you're entering for the right reasons, but you'll realize too late that, despite your desire to help people, it gets old when you work, work, work, spend, spend, spend, and a huge chunk of your effort is taken from you, to give to those who want to watch the View at home during the day, or go to the Swap Meet to pick up some new bedazzling for their tax-payer funded, $600 iPhone. You're kidding yourselves if you think that you don't want or deserve to be compensated for the immensely difficult road you're about to set out upon. If you really had no interest in being financially secure, being paid fairly, or having a stable future, you'd all be joining the Peace Corps or Americorps. Both of those organizations allow you to help others in ways most Americans can't, with all of your living expenses paid, but you don't see millions of Americans running to volunteer for them.

I may seem cynical now, but you'll get it in a few years.......I promise.
 
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wow, that was a long post. i agree with pretty much everything you said about obamacare. what i meant was that i have gathered as much info as i possibly could in making my decision (articles, talking to a lot of docs, forums, etc). trust me, i certainly do not think i know it all. but i also did not just read a couple of paragraphs on the AOA website and declare that optometry is flawless. i know some of the risks with going this route, and if there are negative outcomes, that's on me (just like if i choose not to have health insurance right now and i get hit by a car tomorrow, well, it's on me.)
 
Optometry faces its own declining future, completely independent of the changing climate in health care. What you guys probably can't see, and this goes for all the pre-health professions, is that the entire face of health care is changing in ways you probably can't understand yet, since you haven't even started school.

The Obamacare machine is going to be one of the most expensive endeavors ever undertaken by our government. The problem is, it's largely thought of as "free health care" by those who would benefit. It's no such thing. It's basically a giant tax machine, with health care providers putting the bulk of the money into the system. (Nancy and Harry like to tell you it's the insurance companies, but I can assure you, they're not going to experience much of a net loss of anything, they're far too smart to let that happen.) The primary target, if you read the law, will be providers. They don't spell that out in words, but when you see things like "increased efficiency of care," "reimbursement adjustments," and "reduction of provider overpayment," you're seeing the tip of the iceberg. As of now, medical specialists will see a 5.6% reimbursement cut, each year, for three years once the law is enacted. That's just shy of a 20% pay cut over three years. If you think it will stop there, you're crazy. The federal government, under a liberal mind's leadership, has no problem saying "Well, we'll just take a little more.....and then a little more....and then a little more." That's how it works. It's never about the direction we're moving, it's about the fact that "taking a little more right now won't hurt anyone, so we'll just take that aaaaaand put it over here for us." That's ok, though, because medical specialists are overpaid, right? Well, when you get out of medical school with 300 to 400K in student debt, you've worked your ass off for 15 or more years, and you see the government, time after time, reaching into your wallet to "spread the wealth around," it's going to get old. Where are you going to get the money to start or buy a practice when you've got massive debt, a lower income potential, and interest rates are through the roof because the economy has steadily declined? (...and it will, believe me, the great Obama has a couple of high-priority agenda items, but not one of them is the economy. If you don't see that in his decisions over the last 4 years, you're kidding yourself). Banks won't be letting some fresh-faced MD, or anyone else for that matter, borrow large sums of money to propagate private practice, because their risk will be too high. They'll know that as a doctor, you don't have the earning potential you once had.

Right now, government doctor salaries are lower than private incomes, but they know they have to compete, to some extend, with other practice modes, and government positions offer benefits that might outweigh the lower pay. Once we go to a health care system in which most/all doctors are employees of the federal government, we're going to see a disappearance of that need to compete. It'll be a "take it or leave it" pay scale. This is where we're going - it won't happen tomorrow or within Obama's next term, but it will happen.



You guys who are entering health care will be the future providers for our nation. My fear is that about 90% of you think you're entering for the right reasons, but you'll realize too late that, despite your desire to help people, it gets old when you work, work, work, spend, spend, spend, and a huge chunk of your effort is taken from you, to give to those who want to watch the View at home during the day, or go to the Swap Meet to pick up some new bedazzling for their tax-payer funded, $600 iPhone. You're kidding yourselves if you think that you don't want or deserve to be compensated for the immensely difficult road you're about to set out upon. If you really had no interest in being financially secure, being paid fairly, or having a stable future, you'd all be joining the Peace Corps or Americorps. Both of those organizations allow you to help others in ways most Americans can't, with all of your living expenses paid, but you don't see millions of Americans running to volunteer for them.

I may seem cynical now, but you'll get it in a few years.......I promise.


Thank you for this answer, I feel a lot of students don't understand this concept. I know people saying we should do it b/c you love it and want to help people and not about the money, then why not just be a technician, why not just be a volunteer and do another career.

I ask this question, because while applying I notice some new schools and not so new schools, that by the time it is all done, we might be spending close to 200K on student loans.

Yes you may find a job now as an optometrist at 70-80K but will that remain that high once we get to that point in the future?

I fear for the opening of a private practice, my goal was to be a low vision specialist. I knew going in this may not be highest paid position, because you will be seeing mostly people on some sort of government aid.

But if the only school that accepts you costs 200k do you do still do it? I unfortunately come from a family who will not be able to help with the costs and will be doing this all on my own.
 
Meh...I feel like a lot of this is scare tactics. I just went to a weekend conference with California optometrists, the California Optometric Society, and plenty of reps from various groups (vision insurance, etc.). Nobody has an apocalyptic view of the profession like Jason K. I'm guessing the ones that do have checked out completely and simply don't care anymore. They checked out of the support group that's working hard to still make our profession profitably and possible - a group that is doing really well for us, I might add.

The general sentiment was yes, optometry is changing. If you read old articles from decades ago when optometry was going through other huge changes, you'll see the same voices saying that optometry will never be the same as you know it now...optometry is going to hell in a hand basket....optometry will never survive. But it did. A different optometry. And the general sentiment by people now is that optometry will continue to evolve and change. It's not going to be the same profession that it is now, but it never has remained incredibly stable - and that's not a bad thing, but it scares the people who can't deal with change.

From every doctor that I talked to, the message was yes, optometry will change with the new health care law. But no, we don't actually know how. And furthermore, it'll be different in every state since there's a lot left up to each state. No one felt like private practice would wither away - and none felt like the overall decline in private practice would be due to Obamacare - they all felt like the competition was there to begin with due to Walmart and Costco and Target being able to offer cheaper services. But doctor after doctor stressed: the patient base is there. There are still lots of patients that we aren't reaching and there are plenty to fill your schedule IF you know how to bring them into your door and IF you properly pick a location.

Even the insurance companies didn't feel like things were going to change THAT much for them. I talked at length with someone from EyeMed, just about whether they were anticipating major changes in how they pay doctors or what the new system will mean for them. EyeMed has a lot of contracts with larger medical insurance groups, so they didn't feel like it would change much for them. But VSP for example does not, and they fought hard to get into the exchanges as stand-alone vision coverage in California (this will vary in other states).

I think you hear the apocalyptic voices on TV or around in public because those are the ones squawking the loudest, but the vast majority aren't shaking in their boots that the entire profession is going down in flames.

On a side note, I think Jason K frequently says that new grads aren't going to find work and can't go into private practice. And I want to comment on some other things that I got a lot at the conference (and elsewhere before the conference). Young grads bring things to the workplace (primarily private practices with older docs) that are really appealing. The older docs all told me that young people kind of revitalize the practice, make it fun and interesting again because they bring in an attitude of excitement toward things that no one else found exciting for awhile lol. They also bring some of the newest knowledge from school (won't always match what the older OD has actually seen in practice, but that's kind of the fun of it). They bring knowledge of social networking and online advertising. They will be trained in the medical side of things, whereas many of the older ODs never bothered to go back and get glaucoma certified because of the price or time commitment. They bring knowledge of how to integrate technology better. There are tons of skills that recent grads will bring to a practice and older docs really enjoy hiring younger associates to bring those things to their practice.

There are plenty of private practices opening up now that are growing into successful practices. That wasn't a thing of just the 80s or the 90s. It's still happening. But having a good knowledge of business, marketing, evaluating and adjusting overhead, analyzing your patient base, etc are all more important now than they ever were before. It is getting tougher, but doctor after doctor after doctor that I've talked to say it's obviously still possible, but certainly has more challenges than it did before. There are lots of cities out there that are not over-saturated and that still have plenty of demand for private practice optometrists.

My prediction: Jason K is going to come back at my post and claim that I'm an ignorant student and of course I don't know much about the system yet because I don't have to deal with it and I have no experience on which to base things. Plus once I graduate, the system will be completely different. I've heard it all before. First of all, I disagree. And I have a gazillion more voices supporting my side than Jason K's side. Second of all, the point of my post is to bring a lot more voices (much more experienced than Jason's) to this forum so that people get the whole picture. I'm not saying Jason is wrong - I'm just saying his perspective is just that...his perspective. And he does not represent all, or even the majority, or doctors out there. In fact, I rarely hear his perspective from the doctors I've talked to...but I'm sure those people are out there too and it's not just Jason K.

On another side note, I just read a great article this morning that totally applies to this conversation. For all those people arguing that slightly higher taxes are going to drive us into the ground...you should also know that taxes are WAY lower now than they were in the 1960's. And back then, optometrists were still doing just fine.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/12/opinion/frum-conservatives-despair/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
Here's a short excerpt: "In 1962, the government regulated the price and route of every airplane, every freight train, every truck and every merchant ship in the United States. The government regulated the price of natural gas. It regulated the interest on every checking account and the commission on every purchase or sale of stock. Owning a gold bar was a serious crime that could be prosecuted under the Trading with the Enemy Act. The top rate of income tax was 91%."

He also makes a great argument about how we see every election as an extreme swing to one side. In reality, the line moves slightly left or slightly right, but it's never a huge change. We need to stop being so apocalyptic after every election. No one (okay, almost no one) is moving to Canada. No, our jobs aren't going to do a mass exodus to some other country (in case you hadn't checked, optometry as a career outside of the US is a terrible occupation that pays incredibly poorly in comparison - plenty of eye care professionals move HERE because it's better).
 
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