Threatened to be reported to Dean for Professionalism

[Perrotfish]

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Do I think he should be thrown out of school? Probably not now, but next time.

I would rather he be remediated rather than thrown out too, and it does make it hard to tell the administration about things when there seems to be no middle ground in medical training between having no consequences and having your career ruined. That being said this is far enough over the line that I think most people would say something. At the very least I don't think its fair to blame the girl who is reporting him as though she did something wrong.

 

[Mad Jack]

I would rather he be remediated rather than thrown out too, and it does make it hard to tell the administration about things when there seems to be no middle ground in medical training between having no consequences and having your career ruined. That being said this is far enough over the line that I think most people would say something. At the very least I don't think its fair to blame the girl who is reporting him as though she did something wrong.

I guess I'm just making judgments about the sorts of people that do that sort of thing far too often. It's entirely possible she's someone that is innocently offended. But the majority of classmates I've got would take someone aside and let them know they were being inappropriate, and to not do it again or they would be reported. Especially if it's someone you'd worked aside for a year. But that implies that they hadn't offended the reporter in the past, which, given this behavior, is probably unlikely, so I guess I could give the reporter a pass. Looking at the story at a glance I was just dismissive and judgmental- too focused on boards for nuance rn.

 

[sliceofbread136]

No, you don't get it, people who get into med school are better than regular people. Don't you know that it's hard and expensive?? They deserve not to face consequences for phenomenally stupid actions, and if you think they should you're a tool.

I thought something like would come up (I'm surprised "entitled" wasn't mentioned though). No one is saying that there shouldn't be consequences but that outright dismissal is excessive since most since most students will shape up with a warning. If not then sure kick him out.

I encourage you to consider being more of an advocate for your students. We are people who do make mistake, and it is very easy for administrators to just dole out extreme consequences without really thinking about the repercussions it will have on that students life. It would be nice to have some one atleast trying to look out for us

 

[oldbearprofessor]

I encourage you to consider being more of an advocate for your students. We are people who do make mistake, and it is very easy for administrators to just dole out extreme consequences without really thinking about the repercussions it will have on that students life. It would be nice to have some one at least trying to look out for us

I am an advocate for my students, residents, fellows and faculty who work for our department. This means that when their apartment floods I'll raise money for them, when their parent dies I'll help them in any way possible, etc, etc. It means I meet with them at all levels to push for their career. Being an advocate does not mean I will not at least ask them to leave for a period of time for an action as reprehensible as desecration of a cadaver. I do understand the repercussions of such an action and do not think it is excessive punishment. You might wish to consider whether this is really thoughtlessness on my part or perhaps a different view on the nature of what was done.

 

[dpmd]

On the first day of anatomy, they told us straight up that you would be dismissed for playing/disrespecting the cadaver. That's the only time I ever heard them mention any real punishment for anything else.

This was addressed on our first day on the anatomy lab as well (in writing as well as part of the very solemn ceremony they do prior to us starting). I find it hard to believe his school didn't so i don't see any reason a punishment they likely warned him about would be considered too harsh.

 

[22031 Alum]

I encourage you to consider being more of an advocate for your students. We are people who do make mistake, and it is very easy for administrators to just dole out extreme consequences without really thinking about the repercussions it will have on that students life. It would be nice to have some one atleast trying to look out for us

1- You don't have even the slightest idea of what I do and have done to advocate for my students and residents.

2- You know whose job it is to think about the repercussions on your life? Yours. Mistakes happen, but in medicine or any other arena, if they are frequent enough or big enough you eventually run out of leeway. And that's speaking of things far less serious than using a cadaver as a prop. If you give someone (your med school, your job, your club sports team, etc.) a legitimate reason to believe that it's not worth the risk to keep you around, you aren't owed a single thing just because you paid a lot of money or worked hard. You should be proud of your accomplishments, and show that pride by safeguarding what you've earned. Not thoughtlessly throwing it away.

 

[sliceofbread136]

I am an advocate for my students, residents, fellows and faculty who work for our department. This means that when their apartment floods I'll raise money for them, when their parent dies I'll help them in any way possible, etc, etc. It means I meet with them at all levels to push for their career. Being an advocate does not mean I will not at least ask them to leave for a period of time for an action as reprehensible as desecration of a cadaver. I do understand the repercussions of such an action and do not think it is excessive punishment. You might wish to consider whether this is really thoughtlessness on my part or perhaps a different view on the nature of what was done.

That all sounds great and feel-goody but pale in comparison to possible career ruining decisions. This is where a student truly needs an advocate, not just a hug after a tough day or w/e you cited

Is it unreasonable to think OP can turn it all around with a stern warning and maybe some counseling? I don't think so at all, and I would give him the chance. Do we maybe just have a difference of opinion with respect to what he did? Sure, but even so I think administrators in general need to be a bit less trigger happy with this stuff.

 

[DrMaccoman]

Thank you for the advice guys. Reading the comments from the faculty and physician commenters, there seems to be a unanimous agreement that expulsion is not out of the question. I understand that my actions were grossly inappropriate but does raising a cadavers head in jest for only a few seconds really qualify for a leave of absence or dismissal? I'm honestly stunned right now as I know when I shadow with physicians or residents, people make serious condescending jokes about real life patients all the time. I feel like disrespecting a living patient is just as reprehensible as what I did, yet the act of talking negatively about weird patients/cases is pervasive and readily passed off as "whatever" in the wards.


And just to clarify, you know when you have those particular patients that are crazy or clearly looking for opioids? I've seen physicians make nasty remarks about these patients all the time, but these are often never reported for professionalism violations.

 

[dpmd]

Thank you for the advice guys. Reading the comments from the faculty and physician commenters, there seems to be a unanimous agreement that expulsion is not out of the question. I understand that my actions were grossly inappropriate but does raising a cadavers head in jest for only a few seconds really qualify for a leave of absence or dismissal? I'm honestly stunned right now as I know when I shadow with physicians or residents, people make serious condescending jokes about real life patients all the time. I feel like disrespecting a living patient is just as reprehensible as what I did, yet the act of talking negatively about weird patients/cases is pervasive and readily passed off as "whatever" in the wards.

If you can't recognize the difference between joking about a patient in their absence and using their body as a prop I don't know what to tell you. But at least you consider both reprehensible, so just avoid both and you should be fine.

Did they not have a discussion with your guys before starting anatomy on the rules of dealing with the cadavers, including potential consequences of violations?

 

[sliceofbread136]

1- You don't have even the slightest idea of what I do and have done to advocate for my students and residents.

2- You know whose job it is to think about the repercussions on your life? Yours. Mistakes happen, but in medicine or any other arena, if they are frequent enough or big enough you eventually run out of leeway. And that's speaking of things far less serious than using a cadaver as a prop. If you give someone (your med school, your job, your club sports team, etc.) a legitimate reason to believe that it's not worth the risk to keep you around, you aren't owed a single thing just because you paid a lot of money or worked hard. You should be proud of your accomplishments, and show that pride by safeguarding what you've earned. Not thoughtlessly throwing it away.

Spare me the righteous indignation, I actually do have "the slightest idea" of how much of an advocate you are as you have been posting your opinion on student advocacy issues...

Your second statement only really reinforces my view on you

 

[DrMaccoman]

If you can't recognize the difference between joking about a patient in their absence and using their body as a prop I don't know what to tell you. But at least you consider both reprehensible, so just avoid both and you should be fine.

Did they not have a discussion with your guys before starting anatomy on the rules of dealing with the cadavers, including potential consequences of violations?

It was never explicitly mentioned nor did we ever discuss any of the penalties. I mostly recall procedural stuff such as making sure to keep the body moist and what not. There was never a warning that if you mistreat the body you are automatically on the cusp of dismissal.


Edit: I talked to my friend and he said the instructors did warn not to take photos because there was one year A student using snap chat of the cadavers who got in trouble. They never mentioned what type of trouble. But again never any explicit mention of mistreatment=dismissal

 

[fancymylotus]

It was never explicitly mentioned nor did we ever discuss any of the penalties. I mostly recall procedural stuff such as making sure to keep the body moist and what not. There was never a warning that if you mistreat the body you are automatically on the cusp of dismissal.

Go read and reread your student handbook, somewhere in there should be professionalism policies and possible consequences


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[fancymylotus]

Sorry, I'll probably get attacked for this but IDGAF. Your classmate is a jerk.

Further reinforces my position on not trusting anyone.


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[22031 Alum]

Spare me the righteous indignation, I actually do have "the slightest idea" of how much of an advocate you are as you have been posting your opinion on student advocacy issues...

Your second statement only really reinforces my view on you

Care to expand? I'd be interested to know what exactly is objectionable about saying that there comes a point in life when you have to own your screw-ups and the resulting consequences, without blaming the "tools," "snitches," or the "mean unreasonable administrators."

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

LOL not surprised this **** happens in this new world of SJWs and safe spaces. "Oh noes! he qouted a TVs person! I'M TRIGGERED." Don't feel bad about the **** you did. Just recognize the world around you is surrounded with these clowns and so you have to protect yourself at all costs. When you go to the meeting, you need to a) take full responsibility, b) show remorse and c) state how you'll correct this problem. Trust me. People drink up that kool-aid because they are so self-centered with their better-than-thou attitude just craving to be told they are right.

Learn to treat everything around you as a job and you're a politician. Make a good circle of friends with who you can actually joke about this. The formula that has always worked for me is wait until someone else is a bit "politically incorrect" then slowly work your way until you know you can trust to joke with them honestly. Also, never attempt this with any women. No matter how much any woman tells you she's "just like one of the guys," she's lying. There will be that something that will "offend" her and she will make sure there's hell to pay.

 

[kavorca]

I don't think you should be expelled, but I wouldn't be surprised either way. As far as making fun of patients, when they find out heads roll. Like that lady who stuck the recorder in her hair during surgery. I also agree that the person who reported it went beyond what I would expect from normal people.

 

[fancymylotus]

This is why I take my anger out by buying shoes. It is the best solution. No one gets hurt or fired. Well my bank account hurts. But still. Find an outlet


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[W19]

Learn to treat everything around you as a job and you're a politician. Make a good circle of friends with who you can actually joke about this. The formula that has always worked for me is wait until someone else is a bit "politically incorrect" then slowly work your way until you know you can trust to joke with them honestly. Also, never attempt this with any women. No matter how much any woman tells you she's "just like one of the guys," she's lying. There will be that something that will "offend" her and she . will make sure there's hell to pay

Bingo....

 

[sliceofbread136]

Care to expand? I'd be interested to know what exactly is objectionable about saying that there comes a point in life when you have to own your screw-ups and the resulting consequences, without blaming the "tools," "snitches," or the "mean unreasonable administrators."

"If you give someone (your med school, your job, your club sports team, etc.) a legitimate reason to believe that it's not worth the risk to keep you around, you aren't owed a single thing"

You view your students as a risk to be optimized rather than someone you have some vested interest in and want to advocate for.

 

[dpmd]

You view your students WHO VIOLATE YOUR RULES as a risk to be optimized rather than someone you have some vested interest in and want to advocate for.

Fixed. If they don't follow the rules, there is a risk they will do it again or do it to the next institution they go to (which will reflect poorly on the medical school that allowed them to graduate). Some violations may be a risk felt to be worth accepting especially if the person has otherwise demonstrated good actions/qualities, while others are not.

 

[22031 Alum]

"If you give someone (your med school, your job, your club sports team, etc.) a legitimate reason to believe that it's not worth the risk to keep you around, you aren't owed a single thing"

You view your students as a risk to be optimized rather than someone you have some vested interest in and want to advocate for.

I as an individual don't. The point I was making was about entities like a medical school, residency or hospital system. There has to be some leniency when it comes to trainees, but at the end of the day these entities have to consider their own self-preservation, so they can continue to carry out their overall mission. That's just how it works. Any high-level administrator has a duty to make sure their "company" -be it a med school, an accounting firm or whatever- has as sparkling an image as possible. They would never make a habit of jeopardizing the reputation of the whole organization, for the sake of one person. And every organization will have a different threshold for the number or magnitude of screw-ups that makes them decide that one person is no longer worth the risk to the organization. Hopefully OP hasn't reached that threshold for their school, but it's possible. That's what I meant when I said that it can't be anybody else's job to consider your personal repercussions. There is always a point when what the organization owes itself outweighs what it owes you, so you have to look out for yourself.

 

[Crayola227]

as far as this hurting your own career if you saw this and didn't report... again, maybe this was just my institution, but being "report happy" and not trying to resolve professionalism issues at the point of contact was also seen as unprofessional

the right thing for the classmate to do is to discuss this with the OP, try to gauge if the person understands how unprofessional it is, if there's a pattern of such behavior, and if they have learned their lesson / have a plan / intend to act differently in the future

once that has been done, their job is done

if I was hauled in and asked why I didn't report it, I would point to all of the above

the only time I would make exception to that would be if the class had stated that any unprofessional behavior towards the cadavers be reported to higher ups in which case your hands are tied

 

[sliceofbread136]

Fixed. If they don't follow the rules, there is a risk they will do it again or do it to the next institution they go to (which will reflect poorly on the medical school that allowed them to graduate). Some violations may be a risk felt to be worth accepting especially if the person has otherwise demonstrated good actions/qualities, while others are not.

Well uh... ya of course everyone is going to watch their own ass. What an advocate would consider is if this student has a chance to be remediated and to turn things around, and if so would push for giving that person a second chance. Sure some things and repeat offenders would make you think there is no chance of turning things around. This does not seem the case for the OP as many would see this as a wake up call and turn things around with a stern warning and some counseling.

 

[Goro]

Especially because you are so clueless, the answer is "yes".

I understand that my actions were grossly inappropriate but does raising a cadavers head in jest for only a few seconds really qualify for a leave of absence or dismissal?

 

[sliceofbread136]

I as an individual don't. The point I was making was about entities like a medical school, residency or hospital system. There has to be some leniency when it comes to trainees, but at the end of the day these entities have to consider their own self-preservation, so they can continue to carry out their overall mission. That's just how it works. Any high-level administrator has a duty to make sure their "company" -be it a med school, an accounting firm or whatever- has as sparkling an image as possible. They would never make a habit of jeopardizing the reputation of the whole organization, for the sake of one person. And every organization will have a different threshold for the number or magnitude of screw-ups that makes them decide that one person is no longer worth the risk to the organization. Hopefully OP hasn't reached that threshold for their school, but it's possible. That's what I meant when I said that it can't be anybody else's job to consider your personal repercussions. There is always a point when what the organization owes itself outweighs what it owes you, so you have to look out for yourself.

I might be missing your over-arching point here, but if it is just that students should avoid doing ******ed things like desecrating corpses.... well ya duh. People actually do end up doing stupid things or have some growing up to do sometimes though, it is part of being human.

Yes there is a point where a medical school will say they are done with a student and dismiss them, but what I am trying to say is that all to often this threshold is too low due to risk-adverse administration and lack of advocacy for students. This ends up hurting a lot of students who in many cases could have easily turned things around if just one person in a position of power simply stood up for them.

 

[22031 Alum]

Yes there is a point where a medical school will say they are done with a student and dismiss them, but what I am trying to say is that all to often this threshold is too low due to risk-adverse administration and lack of advocacy for students. This ends up hurting a lot of students who in many cases could have easily turned things around if just one person in a position of power simply stood up for them.

I see your point, which was clearly more than the sense of (sorry) entitlement I originally got from what you said. But I really don't know how fair it is to say that the threshold is too low in too many situations. If, like me, you're not in administration, there's no way to know exactly how somebody's "mistake" can impact the school/hospital long-term. Or how many times a given school/hospital has been burned by giving the wrong person one too many chances. The argument could be made that standing up for the wrong person could ultimately hurt many more people in the long run, and that is what leads to risk-aversion. To make up some examples, say that someone whose name is on a building gets wind of an incident, and decides they're not going to fund the scholarships they sponsor anymore. Or a major community/business partnership falls through after some bad press. An administrator has to consider those types of things just as much as, if not more than, the consequences for any one person.

 

[235009]

OP should get dismissed from med school. This isn't ADHD... It's a lack of maturity stemming from poor parenting and being coddled while growing up. Being told that you are a special snowflake and the center of the universe. Having these notions reinforced in college and never entering the real world. Unfortunately the school was unable to identify these character flaws early enough but now they have a second chance. OP is way too risky to keep around. Schools are very sensitive about anatomy lab mishaps. Imagine the firestorm that would ensue if this made it into the media.


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[TheZaLord]

This reminds me of gross anatomy during grad school (I'm a therapist).
Many students from PT, OT, ST programs shared cadavers.
The male cadavers delivered to our class were castrated due to the behavior of those the year before.
Now, we as therapy students would have no reason to do anything with that part of the anatomy.
Well, I take that back... there have been lymph edema issues my colleagues have assisted a patient in managing...but as students, no.

Anyway, the previous year students had stolen the penises of their cadavers to play pranks.
One putting it under a roommate's pillow, one using it as a prop in the bathroom like it was theirs, then dropping it to freak out the person next to them.
Other variously heinous things.
These students were dismissed from the program, not understanding the uproar behind their "harmless" prank.

Not in med school, but respect for the cadavers was/is still taken very seriously.
I would be livid if that were my loved one treated in such a way.

 

[Crayola227]

we were told to treat the cadaver as our "first patient"

I think the idea is if you can't respect a *dead* patient, why should anyone trust you to act professional around a live one? or a sleeping one?

what's the line for what's funny? holding up a decapitated head of someone's loved one's remains? ejaculating on a sleeping patient's face? I'm not saying you don't know the difference but the point is that your behavior needs to never make anyone question this about you

you need to behave when you're being watched, for all the times when there's no one there to watch you

you will be put into any number of odd/bizarre/gross/hilarious scenarios as a physician, and in each one you're being trusted to maintain the dignity of someone in a sensitive position with a straight face. That's basically your number one job.

the "tip of the iceberg" thing probably gets taken too far, but to fair, the stakes are so high for what you're being trusted with, you can sorta see why the threshold is so low for you breaking that professional trust

 

[Crayola227]

also OP, anyone related to your medical education, including your peers, should not be regarded as "friends" but as colleagues... the only difference between the stick in your 50 year old attending's ass & the one in your 23 yr old classmate's is just how long it's been there and who has more power over your grade

we could wax poetic about why does medicine select people with sticks in their asses... but the thing is, that's what the job needs
if you were a PCP, your panel could be as large as 2,500 ppl (it's said we need about 1 PCP per 10,000 people... so the ideal doc would be "relatable" to any given batch of 10,00o randomly drawn in the country)
hence the focus on applicants able to work with diverse populations
part of that is conducting yourself in such a way as to offend not-a-one of them
an impossible task? yes, but that is the goal so your inoffensiveness and palatability must be broad
hence why you must be extra careful in all your conduct
read the thread on the 4th year neurology resident that lost her job for getting drunk and hitting an Uber driver

you are receiving a professional education, meaning that this is all work related
work is not about having fun or entertaining people - it's about getting **** done as painlessly as possible
part of "painlessly" is having the fewest number of patient/coworker complaints / potential lawsuits

 

[sliceofbread136]

I see your point, which was clearly more than the sense of (sorry) entitlement I originally got from what you said. But I really don't know how fair it is to say that the threshold is too low in too many situations. If, like me, you're not in administration, there's no way to know exactly how somebody's "mistake" can impact the school/hospital long-term. Or how many times a given school/hospital has been burned by giving the wrong person one too many chances. The argument could be made that standing up for the wrong person could ultimately hurt many more people in the long run, and that is what leads to risk-aversion. To make up some examples, say that someone whose name is on a building gets wind of an incident, and decides they're not going to fund the scholarships they sponsor anymore. Or a major community/business partnership falls through after some bad press. An administrator has to consider those types of things just as much as, if not more than, the consequences for any one person.

Fair enough

 

[IlDestriero]

Fixed. If they don't follow the rules, there is a risk they will do it again or do it to the next institution they go to (which will reflect poorly on the medical school that allowed them to graduate). Some violations may be a risk felt to be worth accepting especially if the person has otherwise demonstrated good actions/qualities, while others are not.

This is exactly the issue, whether it's a medical student, resident or even a fellow. Just like in the factory making widgets, you're responsible for the quality of the "product" you turn out. If something is defective and may not function as designed, you don't put your name on it.
The OPs main problem as I see it is that he may actually have a pattern of questionable decision making and unprofessional behavior. It's easy to forgive a single bad decision, as long as it wasn't something outrageously inappropriate and unforgivable, but it's much harder to forgive a single bad decision in the context of a pattern of questionable behavior.
I've seen both sides of the coin here and I've recommended keeping trainees, with probation and/or a remediation plan, and dismissing them, primarily based not the single issue that brought things to head, but their pattern of behavior and potential.


--
Il Destriero

 

[Mad Jack]

LOL not surprised this **** happens in this new world of SJWs and safe spaces. "Oh noes! he qouted a TVs person! I'M TRIGGERED." Don't feel bad about the **** you did. Just recognize the world around you is surrounded with these clowns and so you have to protect yourself at all costs. When you go to the meeting, you need to a) take full responsibility, b) show remorse and c) state how you'll correct this problem. Trust me. People drink up that kool-aid because they are so self-centered with their better-than-thou attitude just craving to be told they are right.

Learn to treat everything around you as a job and you're a politician. Make a good circle of friends with who you can actually joke about this. The formula that has always worked for me is wait until someone else is a bit "politically incorrect" then slowly work your way until you know you can trust to joke with them honestly. Also, never attempt this with any women. No matter how much any woman tells you she's "just like one of the guys," she's lying. There will be that something that will "offend" her and she will make sure there's hell to pay.

I think you stopped reading before he went all Mortal Kombat on the cadaver.

 

[Mad Jack]

This reminds me of gross anatomy during grad school (I'm a therapist).
Many students from PT, OT, ST programs shared cadavers.
The male cadavers delivered to our class were castrated due to the behavior of those the year before.
Now, we as therapy students would have no reason to do anything with that part of the anatomy.
Well, I take that back... there have been lymph edema issues my colleagues have assisted a patient in managing...but as students, no.

Anyway, the previous year students had stolen the penises of their cadavers to play pranks.
One putting it under a roommate's pillow, one using it as a prop in the bathroom like it was theirs, then dropping it to freak out the person next to them.
Other variously heinous things.
These students were dismissed from the program, not understanding the uproar behind their "harmless" prank.

Not in med school, but respect for the cadavers was/is still taken very seriously.
I would be livid if that were my loved one treated in such a way.

Pretty sure removing remains from the cadaver lab without permission is a felony in my state.

 

[dpmd]

Pretty sure removing remains from the cadaver lab without permission is a felony in my state.

But, but, but, you have to give people chances and you can't just ruin their life because they didn't realize actions have consequences and nothing bad they do is on purpose anyway, it is just an accident or mistake. And someone needs to stand up for them and advocate for them not to get into trouble because eventually they might not do bad stuff anymore (in fact they should be praising all the times they did the right things because that is better than bad things having consequences).

 

[deleted503015]

So... Is this the same group as before?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/need-help-bad-team-member-professionalism.1166426/

Seems like you were already on thin ice with them. And if you were serious about those previous comments being forwarded to the dean, it's possible that you were, as others have suggested, "already on the radar" for your administration...

 

[deleted245139]

I suppose it's tough to give advice to someone who already got a bunch of excellent advice back before you escalated this to a level 10.
You need introspection. That comes with age and experience. Without either of those, while you're asking for advice you won't hear a word of it.
GL to you. Your school is going to determine your fate, not any one of us.

 

[dpmd]

Now where did that book by Dale Carnegie go?...

Generally people don't respond well to people who are pricks, or don't have the capability to read them. Learn how to watch other people's body language and figure out whether they are enjoying themselves. Learning forward and smiling? generally good. Is there a murderous glint in their eyes? Generally bad. Both at the same time? Congratulations! you identified a sociopath!

Do you have friends? Just talk to them like they are your friends.

This advice might not have been the best idea for the OP.

 

[235009]

So... Is this the same group as before?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/need-help-bad-team-member-professionalism.1166426/

Seems like you were already on thin ice with them. And if you were serious about those previous comments being forwarded to the dean, it's possible that you were, as others have suggested, "already on the radar" for your administration...

So OP was warned through peer evals, had to talk to the dean about his behavior and yet continued to goof off.... Watching sports videos during anatomy lab and being obnoxious culminating in the decapitated head incident. You had at least 6 months to shape up and change your behavior but you clearly didn't take it seriously. This is a great example of book smarts with absolutely no street smarts. Your good grades may save you from expulsion but I still think if I were making the call I would recommend you be tossed out.


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[Mad Jack]

RIP OP's career. Sorry bro, but it seems you had this one coming.

 

[Promethean]

Thank you for the advice guys. Reading the comments from the faculty and physician commenters, there seems to be a unanimous agreement that expulsion is not out of the question. I understand that my actions were grossly inappropriate but does raising a cadavers head in jest for only a few seconds really qualify for a leave of absence or dismissal? I'm honestly stunned right now as I know when I shadow with physicians or residents, people make serious condescending jokes about real life patients all the time. I feel like disrespecting a living patient is just as reprehensible as what I did, yet the act of talking negatively about weird patients/cases is pervasive and readily passed off as "whatever" in the wards.


And just to clarify, you know when you have those particular patients that are crazy or clearly looking for opioids? I've seen physicians make nasty remarks about these patients all the time, but these are often never reported for professionalism violations.

Absolutely I've seen a few practicing physicians do and say things that are objectionable. You are right that, in the "real world," punishment for unprofessional behavior is not as swift and certain as it can be in medical school. Attendings, assuming they aren't overheard by a patient or someone else with a conscience who pushes the issue, can indeed get away with some pretty egregious behavior.

However, we aren't in school to learn about how we can push the boundaries of acceptable behavior to the edge of the abyss where we get in trouble. We are here to learn the ideal, the standards which we should be striving to uphold when we, in turn, go out into practice. The bar is set high because if it weren't, we'd never learn that is where it really ought to be.

If you can tell, from where you stand now, that cruelty toward patients struggling with mental illness or (often iatrogenic in origin) addiction, then you have the opportunity not to mimic that behavior when it is your turn. Learn from people whose behavior troubles you, about what not to do. Identify role models whose behavior you admire and emulate them.

 

[Perrotfish]

Yes there is a point where a medical school will say they are done with a student and dismiss them, but what I am trying to say is that all to often this threshold is too low due to risk-adverse administration and lack of advocacy for students. This ends up hurting a lot of students who in many cases could have easily turned things around if just one person in a position of power simply stood up for them.

A counter argument is that if someone gets dismissed, its infinitely less cruel to do it early. Dismissing someone in the first year of medical school is only a little worse than not letting them in in the first place. They'll need to readjust and find another job but life will go on. Dismissing someone at the end of residency is life ruining: throwing someone out into the cold in their early 30s with no job skills, no work experience, and 400K in non dischargable debt really leaves them without any hope at all.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I think you stopped reading before he went all Mortal Kombat on the cadaver.

What? Holding the head high up for a few a seconds like a trophy? That's hardly Mortal Kombat, unless he said somewhere else he did something egregious. Sounds more like it's being made a big deal by the butt hurt police. Since it technically falls into that professionalism BS, sure, give him a good talking to, but this idea of expulsion is excessive and ludicrous.

 

[TheZaLord]

Pretty sure removing remains from the cadaver lab without permission is a felony in my state.

I'm not sure it is here. Possible, but I heard of no 'legal issues' these students had to deal with. Just the expulsion from the program.

 

[rajhanda]

It's too bad you didn't use your cellphone to capture the precious moment... You could have been famous and received lots of comments on the Internet like this girl http://fox2now.com/2014/02/06/student-faces-stiff-penalty-for-cadaver-selfie

 

[22031 Alum]

So OP was warned through peer evals, had to talk to the dean about his behavior and yet continued to goof off.... Watching sports videos during anatomy lab and being obnoxious culminating in the decapitated head incident. You had at least 6 months to shape up and change your behavior but you clearly didn't take it seriously. This is a great example of book smarts with absolutely no street smarts. Your good grades may save you from expulsion but I still think if I were making the call I would recommend you be tossed out.


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Crazy how without even having that info, some people figured that OP's behavior might be part of a pattern. It's almost as if years and years of experience are worth something.

 

[Perrotfish]

Thank you for the advice guys. Reading the comments from the faculty and physician commenters, there seems to be a unanimous agreement that expulsion is not out of the question. I understand that my actions were grossly inappropriate but does raising a cadavers head in jest for only a few seconds really qualify for a leave of absence or dismissal? I'm honestly stunned right now as I know when I shadow with physicians or residents, people make serious condescending jokes about real life patients all the time. I feel like disrespecting a living patient is just as reprehensible as what I did, yet the act of talking negatively about weird patients/cases is pervasive and readily passed off as "whatever" in the wards.


And just to clarify, you know when you have those particular patients that are crazy or clearly looking for opioids? I've seen physicians make nasty remarks about these patients all the time, but these are often never reported for professionalism violations.

This is exactly the kind of remark you want to avoid making at your school if you're going to salvage this situation. If you can sell this as an impulsivity problem that you were deeply and immediately remorseful for, they might just let you you off with some kind of remdiation that doesn't go on your dean's letter. If you in any way let on that, looking back, you don't see what the big deal is, or that you don't see how this is different from making fun a drug seeker (not that that's OK, but this is a different league of offensive), they're much more likely to see you as unfixable.

 

[NontradCA]

Crazy how without even having that info, some people figured that OP's behavior might be part of a pattern. It's almost as if years and years of experience are worth something.

Get over yourself.

 

[22031 Alum]

Get over yourself.

The funny thing is, I wasn't even referring to myself. I just didn't feel like going back through the thread to find/quote the people who did mention patterns of behavior, and didn't want to guess. But thanks for the feedback.

 

[fancymylotus]

Get over yourself.

Thank you.


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