Threatened to be reported to Dean for Professionalism

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Since when are cadavers decapitated in med school anatomy lab...what purpose does that serve that can't be learned with keeping the head intact..can others confirm this happens in anatomy lab? If not, OP is trolling..

 

[LLCoolK]

Since when are cadavers decapitated in med school anatomy lab...what purpose does that serve that can't be learned with keeping the head intact..can others confirm this happens in anatomy lab? If not, OP is trolling..

We had our anatomy heads cut in half with half of the head still on the body. the other half of our head was decapitated. It was to see the brainstem/brain in sagittal view, along with the rest of the head anatomy.

 

[WingedOx]

Since when are cadavers decapitated in med school anatomy lab...what purpose does that serve that can't be learned with keeping the head intact..can others confirm this happens in anatomy lab? If not, OP is trolling..

Are people actually doing anatomy in April? (I guess they could in "systems" schools, though I've always thought the cadavers would get impossible to work with if you stretched the class out all year).

 

[Goro]

The OP is at high risk for being dismissed.

Excessive, indeed.

I'm glad I don't go to your school. 1 year is excessive

 

[22031 Alum]

Since when are cadavers decapitated in med school anatomy lab...what purpose does that serve that can't be learned with keeping the head intact..can others confirm this happens in anatomy lab? If not, OP is trolling..

It was a long time ago but I'm fairly sure we decapitated our cadavers as well. Head and neck was our last unit of anatomy and at one point I think the bodies were removed from the lab and we only had the heads on our tables.

 

[Goro]

Again, tip of the iceberg syndrome.

I disagree, it is a minimum for this if true. Outright dismissal is also reasonable. This type of behavior is far outside the bounds of acceptable behavior and I suspect that those students who don't report it may face some discussion with the medical school leadership. Sorry, some things are too far and this is one of them.

To the OP: You need to speak to the dean and follow their guidance respectfully. Do not use untreated medical illness as a reason, simply acknowledge responsibility and accept the consequences.

My school would absolutely NOT have forced an LOA on someone in this situation unless the student was already failing/marginal or had a bunch of professionalism dings lined up already.

 

[Brahnold Bloodaxe]

You're clearly smooth with the ladies... (the likes on this post are entirely unsurprising too)

Your jedi shaming tricks have no power here. They work only on the weak willed and feeble minded. Is the name Brahnold Bloodaxe suggestive of weakness? I think not. As Sun Tzu wrote in his eponymous The Art of B*****e, "speak softly and carry a big stick."

I live those words. And I will use my stick to beat off your future attacks with the ease of a ninja stealing a candy from a baby. How's that for professionalism.

 

[DrMaccoman]

Since when are cadavers decapitated in med school anatomy lab...what purpose does that serve that can't be learned with keeping the head intact..can others confirm this happens in anatomy lab? If not, OP is trolling..

We initially do a partial decaptiation to view the retro pharyngeal space and then a full decapitation to allow us to do a head bisection in which we use an industrial grade bone saw located in another room. Hence the head must be removed to move it to that location for bisection.

 

[DrMaccoman]

Oh, my.

For your sake, I hope that you are like, 22, and have never had a real job of any kind. That would explain your lack of maturity and professionalism.

Your difficulty with being serious, understanding boundaries and appropriateness does not necessarily get excused with a diagnosis of ADD/ADHD. Sure, go see a therapist or advisor of some sort to talk about learning some social skills and how to gauge whether your behavior is offensive to others. But don't look to excuse yourself from the responsibility to work on these life skills by blaming a disease. You aren't ill... you just need to finish growing up.

As for your situation. Don't excuse it. Apologize. Immediately and sincerely, and without concern about whether the apology gets you out of trouble. Responsible, professional adults apologize when they realize that they are in the wrong, not just when the get called on it and risk getting in trouble.

Write a simple and unqualified apology to your lab partners or anyone else who may have witnessed and been offended by your behavior. Don't excuse it. Don't try to mitigate your responsibility. Just say that you got carried away and behaved in a way that, in retrospect, you are embarrassed by. Tell them that you are especially upset with yourself for causing distress to others, and that, while you cannot take it back, at least you can do better in the future.

A sincere apology goes very far toward repairing a situation, but it doesn't fix everything. You have to follow it up by changing your behavior. Find someone whose behavior you respect, and use them as a role model. Think about how they would handle situations. Spend more time observing how others act, so that you can learn to appreciate what the expected norms are for that situation, before you forge forward with your interpretation of some bold comedy routine you saw.

If you do get reported to the Dean, ask if you can meet to discuss the matter. As above, apologize and describe how you intend to change your behavior going forward. Apologize for doing the thing, for the negative effect it had on others, and for causing the Dean to need to have this unpleasant conversation with you. That is your best bet to be given a second chance. If you do get one, express gratitude by not blowing it.

I can only give this advice because I have done more than my share of dumb things, too. You aren't a bad person, just someone who is learning some important lessons a little later than perhaps you ought to have. That's cool... now just fix it and do better.

Thank you... Yes I'm actually quite young so I readily admit I am not that mature. Definitely something that I will let the dean know that I can become more mature.

 

[DrMaccoman]

Are people actually doing anatomy in April? (I guess they could in "systems" schools, though I've always thought the cadavers would get impossible to work with if you stretched the class out all year).

Systems school.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

It was a long time ago but I'm fairly sure we decapitated our cadavers as well. Head and neck was our last unit of anatomy and at one point I think the bodies were removed from the lab and we only had the heads on our tables.

Ours were decapitated but the lab staff did it for us. We just walked in one day and the bodies were gone, just the heads left.

We did have to do the hemipelvectomies ourselves. That was a weird day - everyone walking around carrying a leg/pelvis...

 

[sliceofbread136]

The OP is at high risk for being dismissed.

Excessive, indeed.

Once again very glad I don't go to your school.

My school is infamous for be very hard on their students and even here you wouldn't an loa for what op did

 

[WingedOx]

Once again very glad I don't go to your school.

My school is infamous for be very hard on their students and even here you wouldn't an loa for what op did

Then I'd worry about your school. A case like this screams of red flags for mental health issues.

 

[Mad Jack]

Hi Folks,

I'm just awful at working in groups and I think I have ADHD or something because whenever the going gets boring, I start acting out. So here is the story, in my Gross lab, we have more people per table than necessary so most of the time more than half of us are just chilling and observing and doing nothing really productive while two people actually do work. In those periods I have a tendency to get bored and talk about random things such as politics or watch some sports on the side computers.
Anyways, today I was absolutely going hard and talked about the death of Prince and bringing up Dave Chapelle. On the topic of Dave Chappelle, I was referencing some of his hilarious skits like the KKK one, or the "I'm Rick James B**CH" or the Tyronne crack addict ones. I didn't notice it but some of my group members were apparently really offended by my use of language, even though I was mimicking what Chappelle says (Note: I never said the N word though, but I did say "darkness" as Rick James says it).

It was in this joking mood/end of the year mood that when it was time for us to decapitate the head, I, for whatever idiotic reason, though it was funny to hoist the decaptiated head high up as if I am holding a trophy.

One of my group members was absolutely mortified and screamed that I was so disrespectful. I have to say she was absolutely right. Afterwards, I apologized and realized I was acting like a huge and disrespectful idiot. However, later on, she reached out to me and told me that she will report me to the dean for my unprofessional behavior and how I mistreated the cadaver.

So my question is.

1. What should I do?
2. How do I refrain from keeping myself acting out and how do I keep myself preoccupied?
3. I'm a jokester type of person, and it's very difficult for me to not keep a light mood, but I recognize that I need to mature a whole lot. Any tips on keeping myself sane and not joking around and to exhibit professionalism 24/7? I just find it really hard to go from College where everyone can do whatever to the rigidity that is medical school and the constant need for professionalism and the threat of any violation of professionalism.

We have kids like you in my class. Hell, I'm very good friends with one of them. And seriously, here's what it comes down to: keep it under control or you're going to draw attention to yourself. Any attention for a person like you is going to be negative. Do your best to fly under the radar. If you can't, your career will suffer for it. Save the joking around for when you're not in class.

 

[Mad Jack]

Once again very glad I don't go to your school.

My school is infamous for be very hard on their students and even here you wouldn't an loa for what op did

Here he'd get a talking to from administration, and likely be put on probation. Most schools are obsessed with the idea of "professionalism" and will throw someone to the curb for the slightest transgression in that regard.

 

[Goro]

I repeat: tip of the iceberg.

Med students do not, out of the blue, do a single foolish career ending or delaying thing. Rather, people like the OP engage in a series of behaviors where a single one might get an eyebrow raised, but they're like a bucket placed near the rear end of a cow. Pretty soon it fills up and it ain't pretty. It's the full bucket that gets you, not a single entry.

We see these scenarios played out again and again in the Residency forums ("Fired from residency...what do I do?")

Here he'd get a talking to from administration, and likely be put on probation. Most schools are obsessed with the idea of "professionalism" and will throw someone to the curb for the slightest transgression in that regard.

 

[W19]

Here he'd get a talking to from administration, and likely be put on probation. Most schools are obsessed with the idea of "professionalism" and will throw someone to the curb for the slightest transgression in that regard.

I am not also a big fan of all the professionalism etiquettes that med schools are using to scare their students, but OP's behavior with that cadaver is what most people would consider deviant.

 

[Montisumo]

Hi Folks,

I'm just awful at working in groups and I think I have ADHD or something because whenever the going gets boring, I start acting out. So here is the story, in my Gross lab, we have more people per table than necessary so most of the time more than half of us are just chilling and observing and doing nothing really productive while two people actually do work. In those periods I have a tendency to get bored and talk about random things such as politics or watch some sports on the side computers.
Anyways, today I was absolutely going hard and talked about the death of Prince and bringing up Dave Chapelle. On the topic of Dave Chappelle, I was referencing some of his hilarious skits like the KKK one, or the "I'm Rick James B**CH" or the Tyronne crack addict ones. I didn't notice it but some of my group members were apparently really offended by my use of language, even though I was mimicking what Chappelle says (Note: I never said the N word though, but I did say "darkness" as Rick James says it).

It was in this joking mood/end of the year mood that when it was time for us to decapitate the head, I, for whatever idiotic reason, though it was funny to hoist the decaptiated head high up as if I am holding a trophy.

One of my group members was absolutely mortified and screamed that I was so disrespectful. I have to say she was absolutely right. Afterwards, I apologized and realized I was acting like a huge and disrespectful idiot. However, later on, she reached out to me and told me that she will report me to the dean for my unprofessional behavior and how I mistreated the cadaver.

So my question is.

1. What should I do?
2. How do I refrain from keeping myself acting out and how do I keep myself preoccupied?
3. I'm a jokester type of person, and it's very difficult for me to not keep a light mood, but I recognize that I need to mature a whole lot. Any tips on keeping myself sane and not joking around and to exhibit professionalism 24/7? I just find it really hard to go from College where everyone can do whatever to the rigidity that is medical school and the constant need for professionalism and the threat of any violation of professionalism.

sounds like your classmates dont know who dave chappelle is, or prince, or rick james. but im sure they heard b**ch plenty of times =D

 

[Oh_Gee]

Hi Folks,

I'm just awful at working in groups and I think I have ADHD or something because whenever the going gets boring, I start acting out. So here is the story, in my Gross lab, we have more people per table than necessary so most of the time more than half of us are just chilling and observing and doing nothing really productive while two people actually do work. In those periods I have a tendency to get bored and talk about random things such as politics or watch some sports on the side computers.
Anyways, today I was absolutely going hard and talked about the death of Prince and bringing up Dave Chapelle. On the topic of Dave Chappelle, I was referencing some of his hilarious skits like the KKK one, or the "I'm Rick James B**CH" or the Tyronne crack addict ones. I didn't notice it but some of my group members were apparently really offended by my use of language, even though I was mimicking what Chappelle says (Note: I never said the N word though, but I did say "darkness" as Rick James says it).

It was in this joking mood/end of the year mood that when it was time for us to decapitate the head, I, for whatever idiotic reason, though it was funny to hoist the decaptiated head high up as if I am holding a trophy.

One of my group members was absolutely mortified and screamed that I was so disrespectful. I have to say she was absolutely right. Afterwards, I apologized and realized I was acting like a huge and disrespectful idiot. However, later on, she reached out to me and told me that she will report me to the dean for my unprofessional behavior and how I mistreated the cadaver.

So my question is.

1. What should I do?
2. How do I refrain from keeping myself acting out and how do I keep myself preoccupied?
3. I'm a jokester type of person, and it's very difficult for me to not keep a light mood, but I recognize that I need to mature a whole lot. Any tips on keeping myself sane and not joking around and to exhibit professionalism 24/7? I just find it really hard to go from College where everyone can do whatever to the rigidity that is medical school and the constant need for professionalism and the threat of any violation of professionalism.

i love chapelle skits but you lost me at held up head like trophy

 

[Oh_Gee]

Believe it. My med school class had a cadaver story that tops the OP's. The girl got off with a slap on the wrist from what I remember.

story please

 

[Promethean]

I am not also a big fan of all the professionalism etiquettes that med schools are using to scare their students, but OP's behavior with that cadaver is what most people would consider deviant.

It really is just a matter of knowing when and where it is okay to cut up and act a bit foolish.

Anatomy lab is not the place. It is a place to demonstrate extreme respect for the people who have donated their very bodies so that we can study and learn from them. They don't make those donations expecting that their body will be used as a funny prop for someone's joke. If necessary, pretend that you are in court, or church, or some other place where you would be expected to behave reverently.

Chapelle skits are for later, and preferably for situations where everyone present is there because they want to hang out with you... not for lab. That is a situation where your peers might just be putting up with you because they have to be there and can't easily escape your humor if they find it offensive.

 

[Crayola227]

OP -

**If it's anonymous, contact your ombudsman, definitely be sure before you talk to them that nothing you say leaves the two of you without your permission

the ombudsman likely knows the dean and the culture of your particular school best and can probably offer you the best advice for smoothing this over
the job of the ombudsman is typically to be a confidential source of support to students and a neutral party in any issues involving students and admin

**I agree, writing an apology to everyone you offended is a good idea, I would sent it via email to have a record of what, when
**Definitely set up an appt with a psychiatrist AND set up some regular counseling ASAP! you want to have on record that you did that

I don't know that you should go to the Dean... do NOT ask the person you offended who said they would report you not to report you, that would unprofessional, but there's a chance that a sincere apology might make her not bother.

It's best if you can avoid their radar if someone else doesn't do it, and if they ask you why you didn't go to them first you can point to what you did to try to address the problem... at my school, they always encouraged that resolving conflicts with peers should always be attempted peer to peer and that going "above" someone in the hierarchy should only be done if successfully resolving an issue was not likely at the local level. Hence, your explanation would not include what I just said, I include this for why at some institutions trying to fix this with your peers and seeking help without making a point of going to the Dean would be an OK approach should you get hauled in.

Anyway, if you go that pathway and then are asked the question why you did not go to them, let them know that you recognized how unprofessional this was and went about rectifying it directly with your peers via apology and also took steps such as contacting the ombudsman and seeking professional help via counseling for introspection. Let them know you know how important professional reputation is in the field and know that what you did damaged your reputation, and you were trying to preserve your professional reputation by being proactive in this manner but that you were trying to keep this to the involved parties.

**Do not talk about this incident with any of your peers. If a classmate confronts you about it or the details, just say "yes, I acted unprofessionally and have taken steps to take responsibility for my behavior, apologize, and be more professional in the future." If pressed for more, say, "say, I'm sorry but this is an incident I think best left to those directly involved, and would like to leave in the past as I seek to rebuild my professional reputation."

I say talk to your ombudsman because at my school this sort of approach to fly under the admin radar and fix this would fly, they would respect what I outlined as appropriate steps but that you did not go to them off the bat, but it could very well be like what @Goro and others are saying that you ARE better off being the one to cat-out-of-bag this to your Dean.

 

[BiologyMajor86]

op put on some lipstick and gloss it over your lips because youre gonna have some MAJOR BUTT KISSING TO DO.

but srsly op u lack some common sense. lol grow up. at best this is staying on ur record sorry competition in med school is too fierce to let ppl like u mess around

 

[Oo Cipher oO]

Glad I don't go to your school too. Sure op is a ****** but 1 year of someone's career for holding up a head?

A head donated by the individual and their family for your education. Medical schools all over the country are hurting for new cadavers for their students and many have turned away from traditional dissection labs. The individuals that donate their bodies to the school deserve the assurance that they will be treated with dignity and respect. The lack of respect shown by this medical student has the potential to turn away any future donations and negatively impact all future medical classes. So yeah it's more then just a stupid joke with a head.

 

[dpmd]

I honestly have no idea how to teach someone the kind of basic self control that would be involved with not using the cadaver lab as a comedy club and not using the cadaver as a prop.

 

[dpmd]

A head donated by the individual and their family for your education. Medical schools all over the country are hurting for new cadavers for their students and many have turned away from traditional dissection labs. The individuals that donate their bodies to the school deserve the assurance that they will be treated with dignity and respect. The lack of respect shown by this medical student has the potential to turn away any future donations and negatively impact all future medical classes. So yeah it's more then just a stupid joke with a head.

This is an important point. There can be consequences for this kind of stuff that will drastically affect the school and those students who come after you so if you don't care about the dignity of the person that gave the gift of their body for you to learn from at least care about that.

 

[kavorca]

You should switch over to Chris Rock bits

 

[NontradCA]

A head donated by the individual and their family for your education. Medical schools all over the country are hurting for new cadavers for their students and many have turned away from traditional dissection labs. The individuals that donate their bodies to the school deserve the assurance that they will be treated with dignity and respect. The lack of respect shown by this medical student has the potential to turn away any future donations and negatively impact all future medical classes. So yeah it's more then just a stupid joke with a head.

While I appreciate people who would donate their body let's not kid ourselves. It's not going to be a disadvantage to learn from a computer generated section of anatomy. Most students are sick of anatomy lab after 2 weeks. But yea, OP needs to grow up.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Here he'd get a talking to from administration, and likely be put on probation. Most schools are obsessed with the idea of "professionalism" and will throw someone to the curb for the slightest transgression in that regard.

Yes I think probation or something like "if do something this stupid again there will be consequences" is warranted. I think most people would get it together at that point.

 

[sliceofbread136]

A head donated by the individual and their family for your education. Medical schools all over the country are hurting for new cadavers for their students and many have turned away from traditional dissection labs. The individuals that donate their bodies to the school deserve the assurance that they will be treated with dignity and respect. The lack of respect shown by this medical student has the potential to turn away any future donations and negatively impact all future medical classes. So yeah it's more then just a stupid joke with a head.

Yes I agree what OP did is not great, but do we have to be so quick to just kick people out of medical school? I hate how lightly some people/school administrators take such a drastic move sometimes. This a med student's future here. He has already put in years of work and multiple tens of thousands of dollars. He should at least be given a chance to turn things around before losing all of that.

 

[67552931811]

Hi Folks,

I'm just awful at working in groups and I think I have ADHD or something because whenever the going gets boring, I start acting out. So here is the story, in my Gross lab, we have more people per table than necessary so most of the time more than half of us are just chilling and observing and doing nothing really productive while two people actually do work. In those periods I have a tendency to get bored and talk about random things such as politics or watch some sports on the side computers.
Anyways, today I was absolutely going hard and talked about the death of Prince and bringing up Dave Chapelle. On the topic of Dave Chappelle, I was referencing some of his hilarious skits like the KKK one, or the "I'm Rick James B**CH" or the Tyronne crack addict ones. I didn't notice it but some of my group members were apparently really offended by my use of language, even though I was mimicking what Chappelle says (Note: I never said the N word though, but I did say "darkness" as Rick James says it).

It was in this joking mood/end of the year mood that when it was time for us to decapitate the head, I, for whatever idiotic reason, though it was funny to hoist the decaptiated head high up as if I am holding a trophy.

One of my group members was absolutely mortified and screamed that I was so disrespectful. I have to say she was absolutely right. Afterwards, I apologized and realized I was acting like a huge and disrespectful idiot. However, later on, she reached out to me and told me that she will report me to the dean for my unprofessional behavior and how I mistreated the cadaver.

So my question is.

1. What should I do?
2. How do I refrain from keeping myself acting out and how do I keep myself preoccupied?
3. I'm a jokester type of person, and it's very difficult for me to not keep a light mood, but I recognize that I need to mature a whole lot. Any tips on keeping myself sane and not joking around and to exhibit professionalism 24/7? I just find it really hard to go from College where everyone can do whatever to the rigidity that is medical school and the constant need for professionalism and the threat of any violation of professionalism.

What a tool. I mean not condoning what you did but that chick is a total tool.

 

[Mad Jack]

Since when are cadavers decapitated in med school anatomy lab...what purpose does that serve that can't be learned with keeping the head intact..can others confirm this happens in anatomy lab? If not, OP is trolling..

We did a lot of different cuts of our cadavers- coronal, axial, sagittal, you name it, we did it head to toe. We halved, we quartered, we sliced into fine anatomical plates. With over 50 bodies, we had a lot of awesome views of everything. Depending on the particular manner in which a body had been dissected, by the time we were done there was little remaining but parts that could hardly be recognized as human remains.

 

[Mad Jack]

What a tool. I mean not condoning what you did but that chick is a total tool.

+1. Like, yeah, he probably crossed a line. But to make a conscious decision to report someone for something that, at the end of the day, probably won't affect their abilities as a physician and get them thrown out of school over it? That just takes a certain sort of detestable snowflake. If he'd harmed a patient or something, that's one thing. But this? It just seems a little bit much. OP did a stupid thing, but not a life-ruiningly stupid thing.

 

[sliceofbread136]

And can we stop with the assumptions and "tip of the iceberg" nonsense? If someone is caught speeding do we assume that it is the "tip of the iceberg" and increase their punishment accordingly? Why can't we assume some innocence until proven guilty?

 

[ACSurgeon]

OP -

**If it's anonymous, contact your ombudsman, definitely be sure before you talk to them that nothing you say leaves the two of you without your permission

the ombudsman likely knows the dean and the culture of your particular school best and can probably offer you the best advice for smoothing this over
the job of the ombudsman is typically to be a confidential source of support to students and a neutral party in any issues involving students and admin

**I agree, writing an apology to everyone you offended is a good idea, I would sent it via email to have a record of what, when
**Definitely set up an appt with a psychiatrist AND set up some regular counseling ASAP! you want to have on record that you did that

I don't know that you should go to the Dean... do NOT ask the person you offended who said they would report you not to report you, that would unprofessional, but there's a chance that a sincere apology might make her not bother.

It's best if you can avoid their radar if someone else doesn't do it, and if they ask you why you didn't go to them first you can point to what you did to try to address the problem... at my school, they always encouraged that resolving conflicts with peers should always be attempted peer to peer and that going "above" someone in the hierarchy should only be done if successfully resolving an issue was not likely at the local level. Hence, your explanation would not include what I just said, I include this for why at some institutions trying to fix this with your peers and seeking help without making a point of going to the Dean would be an OK approach should you get hauled in.

Anyway, if you go that pathway and then are asked the question why you did not go to them, let them know that you recognized how unprofessional this was and went about rectifying it directly with your peers via apology and also took steps such as contacting the ombudsman and seeking professional help via counseling for introspection. Let them know you know how important professional reputation is in the field and know that what you did damaged your reputation, and you were trying to preserve your professional reputation by being proactive in this manner but that you were trying to keep this to the involved parties.

**Do not talk about this incident with any of your peers. If a classmate confronts you about it or the details, just say "yes, I acted unprofessionally and have taken steps to take responsibility for my behavior, apologize, and be more professional in the future." If pressed for more, say, "say, I'm sorry but this is an incident I think best left to those directly involved, and would like to leave in the past as I seek to rebuild my professional reputation."

I say talk to your ombudsman because at my school this sort of approach to fly under the admin radar and fix this would fly, they would respect what I outlined as appropriate steps but that you did not go to them off the bat, but it could very well be like what @Goro and others are saying that you ARE better off being the one to cat-out-of-bag this to your Dean.

I agree with all this except the part where you suggest putting in writing what happened in an apology to involved classmates. That's evidence that only needs one classmate to get nervous about their duty to report, and forward the email to the administration. I would, however, verbally apologize to every classmate and explain steps taken to rectify behavior. If a written apology is done, I would stay vague and just apologize for the offensive behavior and assure them you've learned from your mistake and won't do it again.

Leaving a positive paper trail is good. Leaving a negative paper trail is damming.

 

[dpmd]

While I appreciate people who would donate their body let's not kid ourselves. It's not going to be a disadvantage to learn from a computer generated section of anatomy. Most students are sick of anatomy lab after 2 weeks. But yea, OP needs to grow up.

It isn't just med students. Residents sometimes have cadaver labs and as a attending surgeon i have attended training sessions on new techniques that use cadavers. Not everything can be replaced by technology.

 

[NontradCA]

It isn't just med students. Residents sometimes have cadaver labs and as a attending surgeon i have attended training sessions on new techniques that use cadavers. Not everything can be replaced by technology.

That's fair.

 

[ordersol7]

And can we stop with the assumptions and "tip of the iceberg" nonsense? If someone is caught speeding do we assume that it is the "tip of the iceberg" and increase their punishment accordingly? Why can't we assume some innocence until proven guilty?

Clearly you are new to SDN.

 

[Perrotfish]

Hi Folks,

I'm just awful at working in groups and I think I have ADHD or something because whenever the going gets boring, I start acting out. So here is the story, in my Gross lab, we have more people per table than necessary so most of the time more than half of us are just chilling and observing and doing nothing really productive while two people actually do work. In those periods I have a tendency to get bored and talk about random things such as politics or watch some sports on the side computers.
Anyways, today I was absolutely going hard and talked about the death of Prince and bringing up Dave Chapelle. On the topic of Dave Chappelle, I was referencing some of his hilarious skits like the KKK one, or the "I'm Rick James B**CH" or the Tyronne crack addict ones. I didn't notice it but some of my group members were apparently really offended by my use of language, even though I was mimicking what Chappelle says (Note: I never said the N word though, but I did say "darkness" as Rick James says it).

It was in this joking mood/end of the year mood that when it was time for us to decapitate the head, I, for whatever idiotic reason, though it was funny to hoist the decaptiated head high up as if I am holding a trophy.

One of my group members was absolutely mortified and screamed that I was so disrespectful. I have to say she was absolutely right. Afterwards, I apologized and realized I was acting like a huge and disrespectful idiot. However, later on, she reached out to me and told me that she will report me to the dean for my unprofessional behavior and how I mistreated the cadaver.

So my question is.

1. What should I do?
2. How do I refrain from keeping myself acting out and how do I keep myself preoccupied?
3. I'm a jokester type of person, and it's very difficult for me to not keep a light mood, but I recognize that I need to mature a whole lot. Any tips on keeping myself sane and not joking around and to exhibit professionalism 24/7? I just find it really hard to go from College where everyone can do whatever to the rigidity that is medical school and the constant need for professionalism and the threat of any violation of professionalism.

OP:

1) I agree with those above who have recommended that you establish care with a psychiatrist. I am, like everyone else, trying very hard to resist the temptation to diagnose you over the Internet, but if you are aware and worried that you are frequently giving over to impulsive and/or inappropriate behavior then you at least owe yourself an evaluation.

2) I agree with those who have advised you to write a sincere, excuse free letter of apology to your group (and, through them, to your cadaver), both because its the right thing to do and because its important for your career to start apologizing before someone officially makes you. Make it clear that while it does not excuse any of your actions you are taking the following 'next steps' to make sure this never happens again (such as the psychiatrist). Make sure someone that you trust, and who has delt with this kind of thing before, reads the letter before you send it. No matter how rude people are in response to your apology do NOT fight back in any way, a single snide remark ruins the effect.

3) I'm not as sure about how/if you should approach your Dean. If there is a 100% confidential counselor at your school who knows your administration (mine had a Chaplain) that might be a good place to start rather than going straight to him.

 

[fancymylotus]

I would read your student handbook very carefully. There may be procedure outlined there when it comes to professionalism issues or complaints. Follow it exactly. I would also email your Dean and BCC anyone you think needs to know. If your school requires written explanations, which some may, I would send that return receipt/certified and keep all the evidence.
Don't make excuses. Apologize. And state how you're going to make sure it never happens again and what steps you're taking in a logical/ordered fashion.
I would also write an apology to the student in question and BCC the dean on the apology email.

I don't trust anyone in admin.


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[fancymylotus]

And to anyone that says to not tell the Dean first,I also trust fellow students very little and would rather look proactive and as professional as possible.


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[Perrotfish]

+1. Like, yeah, he probably crossed a line. But to make a conscious decision to report someone for something that, at the end of the day, probably won't affect their abilities as a physician and get them thrown out of school over it? That just takes a certain sort of detestable snowflake. If he'd harmed a patient or something, that's one thing. But this? It just seems a little bit much. OP did a stupid thing, but not a life-ruiningly stupid thing.

I am very, very hard to offend, but desecrating a corpse does fall in the realm of the offensive for me. Honestly if I had seen it I probably would have reported him too, for several reasons:

1) Its a betrayal of the donor and of his family. Could you imagine if you found out this was how they treated your parent's final gift?

2) It also creates a miserable atmosphere for the group to work in. We are trained to roll our eyes at the phrase but there is such a thing as a hostile work environment, and if someone shouting out racist 90s comedy and playing puppets with human heads doesn't qualify, then WTF does?

3) It endangers every member of the group who doesn't report him. If you see someone stealing Vicoden from the pharmacy and he tells you to 'be cool', when you don't mention anything your career goes down the tubes with his. Same rules apply. I would not risk my future for the cadaver head guy.

Some part of me sympathizes with the OP, as he clearly had no malicious intent, and as he came here for advice I think its reasonable to give it to him. However I think you're nuts if you're saying that this was a victimless crime, and if I saw it I'd report him.

 

[22031 Alum]

If you see someone stealing Vicoden from the pharmacy and he tells you to 'be cool', when you don't mention anything your career goes down the tubes with his. Same rules apply. I would not risk my future for the cadaver head guy.

No, you don't get it, people who get into med school are better than regular people. Don't you know that it's hard and expensive?? They deserve not to face consequences for phenomenally stupid actions, and if you think they should you're a tool.

 

[Mad Jack]

I am very hard to offend, but desecrating a corpse does fall in the realm of the offensive for me. Its a betrayal of the donor and of his family. Honestly if I had seen it I probably would have reported him too. Some part of me sympathizes with the OP, as he clearly had no malicious intent, but I think you're nuts if you're saying that this was a victimless crime.

I guess I'm just too numb to the whole death thing. When I'm dead I could care less what's done to me- I'm a pile of decaying meat. Might donate my body and get some amusing tattoos for the students as one last, great act of trolling. Bonus points to the student that does this with my skull and spine:

But really, as I said, I don't think op should be in the clear, and I do think he's an idiot. I just don't know if it's toss-him-out worthy.

Stealing drugs, harming patients, all of that? I'd report in a second. And I full respect the dead. I mean, I was pretty reverent of my cadaver, and said a few words when we spread his ashes. But I guess I understand that many people have bizarre coping mechanisms to the strange situation of being stuck in a room full of dead people, so not everyone handles it in the smartest way. Some people get too comfortable, some people say or do stupid things. It's a very weird situation that is different than anything most people ever experience, and is completely unnatural in a way that is very difficult to describe. People didn't evolve to spend hundreds of hours hacking apart the same cadaver, so I kind of give them a pass when they crack and do stupid **** I guess. I'm honestly surprised more people don't do weird **** as a coping mechanism in the lab, it's a really hellish place to be sometimes.

 

[Stagg737]

Are people actually doing anatomy in April? (I guess they could in "systems" schools, though I've always thought the cadavers would get impossible to work with if you stretched the class out all year).

Our school gets new bodies in March and does head and neck on new cadavers in March and April. The bodies get stored for the summer and are used for the rest of the systems during the year until mid-Feb and new bodies are brought in again. So long as they're sprayed down proper the bodies actually stayed surprisingly "fresh" for pretty much every section.

While I appreciate people who would donate their body let's not kid ourselves. It's not going to be a disadvantage to learn from a computer generated section of anatomy. Most students are sick of anatomy lab after 2 weeks. But yea, OP needs to grow up.

I'd disagree. Sure there are some, maybe many, areas where simply looking at slices/pictures is adequate. However, for someone who is a tactile learner like myself, being able to touch and physically work with the cadavers was far more beneficial than any images or apps I used. Additionally, there are some areas of the body which I think are learned better on a cadaver due to the spatial arrangement, like the neck, nerves of the face, or the muscles of the forearm and hand.

 

[IlDestriero]

I decapitated my cadaver and said, "There can be only one!" One guy in my group got it. We laughed. No heads on pikes, nobody meeting with the Dean. You can be lighthearted and silly without crossing boundaries.
I hope you're a troll as you might be really in deep stool for something so completely unprofessional and disrespectful.


--
Il Destriero

 

[Perrotfish]

I guess I'm just too numb to the whole death thing. When I'm dead I could care less what's done to me- I'm a pile of decaying meat. Might donate my body and get some amusing tattoos for the students as one last, great act of trolling. Bonus points to the student that does this with my skull and spine:

Everyone says this about their own body and I think many people even mean it. Think about the idea of someone doing something like this to your mother's body. Odds are you're not really numb to the concept. You just don't care about the deaths of strangers because, like your own body, the strangers have no emotional payload to you.

That's OK, they're not supposed to have an emotional impact for you. Honestly that's a lot of what professionalism is in medicine: acting with a decorum that you don't feel. You're trying to plod through your job and you need to maintain at least the appearance of focus and dignity that people expect from someone guiding them through the worst moments of their lives. It doesn't stop in the cadaver lab.

 

[Mad Jack]

Everyone says this about their own body and I think many people even mean it. Think about the idea of someone doing something like this to your mother's body. Or your wife's. Odds are you're not really numb to the concept. You just don't care about the deaths of strangers because, like your own body, the strangers have no emotional payload to you.

That's OK, they're not supposed to have an emotional impact for you. Honestly that's a lot of what professionalism is in medicine: acting with a decorum that you don't feel. You're trying to plod through your job and you need to maintain at least the appearance of focus and dignity that people expect from someone guiding them through the worst moments of their lives. It doesn't stop in the cadaver lab.

And I agree with you. I was actually talking with my roommate about it and he was like, "what if it was your girlfriend" and I was like, "ah, yeah, I guess I get that." I mean, if she thought it was awesome, I'd be fine with it, but I still wouldn't be enthusiastic about it regardless of how much I don't care about my own body. At the same time, I know that the anatomy lab is one of those bizarre situations that people's brains weren't inherently designed to handle, so I guess I'm a bit more forgiving if people don't do the brightest things when they're there. Do I think OP should be reprimanded? Oh, certainly. Do I think he should be thrown out of school? Probably not now, but next time.

 

[kavorca]

On the first day of anatomy, they told us straight up that you would be dismissed for playing/disrespecting the cadaver. That's the only time I ever heard them mention any real punishment for anything else.

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

Hi Folks,

I'm just awful at working in groups and I think I have ADHD or something because whenever the going gets boring, I start acting out. So here is the story, in my Gross lab, we have more people per table than necessary so most of the time more than half of us are just chilling and observing and doing nothing really productive while two people actually do work. In those periods I have a tendency to get bored and talk about random things such as politics or watch some sports on the side computers.
Anyways, today I was absolutely going hard and talked about the death of Prince and bringing up Dave Chapelle. On the topic of Dave Chappelle, I was referencing some of his hilarious skits like the KKK one, or the "I'm Rick James B**CH" or the Tyronne crack addict ones. I didn't notice it but some of my group members were apparently really offended by my use of language, even though I was mimicking what Chappelle says (Note: I never said the N word though, but I did say "darkness" as Rick James says it).

It was in this joking mood/end of the year mood that when it was time for us to decapitate the head, I, for whatever idiotic reason, though it was funny to hoist the decaptiated head high up as if I am holding a trophy.

One of my group members was absolutely mortified and screamed that I was so disrespectful. I have to say she was absolutely right. Afterwards, I apologized and realized I was acting like a huge and disrespectful idiot. However, later on, she reached out to me and told me that she will report me to the dean for my unprofessional behavior and how I mistreated the cadaver.

So my question is.

1. What should I do?
2. How do I refrain from keeping myself acting out and how do I keep myself preoccupied?
3. I'm a jokester type of person, and it's very difficult for me to not keep a light mood, but I recognize that I need to mature a whole lot. Any tips on keeping myself sane and not joking around and to exhibit professionalism 24/7? I just find it really hard to go from College where everyone can do whatever to the rigidity that is medical school and the constant need for professionalism and the threat of any violation of professionalism.

sorry to hear that, man. but....COMPUTER BLUE, DARLING PICKY.