To all UoP dental students,

[Expert]

I enjoyed my visit to UoP last fall. However, I just could not bring myself to fathom the vast amount of debt that UoP dental students take. Even when talking to some of them, they didnt seem to think much about it while in school.
So for current UoP students, what are your thoughts on your debt and how do long do you think repayment will take? Is there any good news at the end?

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[tjung789]

UOP just increased the total tuition for 3 years by 10k

 

[UCSFx2017]

It should be around $4,400/month for ten-years = $52,800/year for ten-years = $528,000 total. It's probably more. From word-of-mouth, I've been told that you pay your monthly installments after state + federal income taxes. So if you get taxed $34,000 on a $120,000 gross salary, you'll have a net yearly income of $33,200. But then you have to factor in health insurance, disability insurance, malpractice insurance, rent, retirement, car payment, food, etc. In other words, I don't think it's feasible to have a repayment schedule of 10-years if you average $120,000/year during that first decade. It'll become a lot more feasible, in terms of living standards, if you bump up your salary to >$150,000 as soon as possible or if you extend your repayment schedule out to 20-30 years, which is ill-advised since total repayment skyrockets at that point. Take this as a grain of salt because this is based on my own internet research.

It's probably going to be a while before you qualify for a loan and buy your own practice. From what I've read, most banks require at most a 30% monthly debt-to-income ratio in order to qualify for a decent loan.

I guess U.S. News spoke to quickly about what the #1 profession was. Look at the bright side, you have great job security and there's light at the end of the repayment tunnel.

 

[Ferneezy]

^^^ yes, the longer your repayment the more interest accrues...but one should be able to pay off .edu loans early, right?

it just makes horse sense to immediately stretch repay to 30 years to ease your monthly burden, then as your income ramps up you increase the amount you pay until it magically disappears way before 30 is up.

 

[lnngu]

I enjoyed my visit to UoP last fall. However, I just could not bring myself to fathom the vast amount of debt that UoP dental students take. Even when talking to some of them, they didnt seem to think much about it while in school.
So for current UoP students, what are your thoughts on your debt and how do long do you think repayment will take? Is there any good news at the end?

As opposed to which other school? If you can get into a cheap state school, then by all means, I'll be the first to point you that way. If not (includes UCs), then we compare pretty favorably, if you factor in the extra year of production.
I know it's popular (and probably smart) to wring one's hands and bemoan the absurd amount of loans. But the fact is: we have one of the lowest loans default rates in the country, which probably means our grads are doing ok. Most of the ones I know are taking the 20-30 years route. All of them are living well and seem happy. Sorry if it's not a more scientific analysis, but in the interest of full disclosure, i'm on scholarship, so I don't spend much time running the numbers. I prefer to think these things take care of themselves magically. Poof!

Seriously, though... By all accounts, our grads manage fine.

 

[ATG20]

I enjoyed my visit to UoP last fall. However, I just could not bring myself to fathom the vast amount of debt that UoP dental students take. Even when talking to some of them, they didnt seem to think much about it while in school.
So for current UoP students, what are your thoughts on your debt and how do long do you think repayment will take? Is there any good news at the end?

Yes, because a vast number of them seem to come from wealthy standings. In my interview group alone, 5 of 9 had parents who had graduated from UOP as dentists. 2 of which had both parents as dentists. For those financing their own education, or who do not have a family practice to enter into upon graduation, you can't let others' financially carefree ways influence your decisions. I was given a scholarship at this school and still couldn't convince myself to take on the debt. A lot of the current students seem almost cult-like with some mantra along the lines of 'But you get out a year early!!' Don't drink the kool-aid and buy into this as a reason to attend. There are valid reasons to go to UOP, but financially, this isn't one. Yes, you enter practice one year earlier, however the difference in the loan between an expensive school like this and a cheaper state or even priv. school does make a difference. Too many predents who've never worked at a real job think 'At the end of my career, I'll make 180k or something, so if the school is only 80k more, that's 100k in my pocket at the end.' If only.

Realistically, on a mere 15-yr repayment plan for a loan of 300k vs 380k, the difference in interest paid on the loan alone is 120,000 (if you extend repayment, the difference becomes even larger). It's something to the tune of 648k vs 765k in repayment for the 15-yr. So your perceived "gain" of one-year's sooner salary is almost negated just through repayment for the pricier school. Here's where it's completely negated plus some, putting you actually further back: your retirement/investments! The larger amount you repay each month upon graduation is that much less you can sock away for retirement or actively invest. It's not difficult to average 6-8% return on an investment or in your retirement portfolio. Do some math on that. 15-yr plan; 300k loan repayment: ~3600/mo. 380k:~4200/mo. If you were to put that 500-600$ each month into an account to invest, you could be EARNING money at 7.2% rather than throwing it back to the bank. At the end of your career, this difference will be much greater than any "gain" perceived by practicing a year sooner.

UCSFx2017 is correct. Your loans will be repaid entirely with your aftertax income (not sure why it'd be any other way). Any tax benefit for repaying loan interest disappears past 85k income (around this mark). As a dentist, you can forget about this tax benefit unless you're working part time forever.

The attached Financial Planning Worksheet is attached below. It was created by a Bereno here on SDN.

 

[cmF]

Thanks for the link to Bereno's spreadsheet! The resources this forum offers never ceases to amaze me.

 

[lnngu]

]Yes, because a vast number of them seem to come from wealthy standings. In my interview group alone, 5 of 9 had parents who had graduated from UOP as dentists. 2 of which had both parents as dentists. For those financing their own education, or who do not have a family practice to enter into upon graduation, you can't let others' financially carefree ways influence your decisions.[/B] I was given a scholarship at this school and still couldn't convince myself to take on the debt. A lot of the current students seem almost cult-like with some mantra along the lines of 'But you get out a year early!!' Don't drink the kool-aid and buy into this as a reason to attend. There are valid reasons to go to UOP, but financially, this isn't one. Yes, you enter practice one year earlier, however the difference in the loan between an expensive school like this and a cheaper state or even priv. school does make a difference. Too many predents who've never worked at a real job think 'At the end of my career, I'll make 180k or something, so if the school is only 80k more, that's 100k in my pocket at the end.' If only.

Realistically, on a mere 15-yr repayment plan for a loan of 300k vs 380k, the difference in interest paid on the loan alone is 120,000 (if you extend repayment, the difference becomes even larger). It's something to the tune of 648k vs 765k in repayment for the 15-yr. So your perceived "gain" of one-year's sooner salary is almost negated just through repayment for the pricier school. Here's where it's completely negated plus some, putting you actually further back: your retirement/investments! The larger amount you repay each month upon graduation is that much less you can sock away for retirement or actively invest. It's not difficult to average 6-8% return on an investment or in your retirement portfolio. Do some math on that. 15-yr plan; 300k loan repayment: ~3600/mo. 380k:~4200/mo. If you were to put that 500-600$ each month into an account to invest, you could be EARNING money at 7.2% rather than throwing it back to the bank. At the end of your career, this difference will be much greater than any "gain" perceived by practicing a year sooner.

UCSFx2017 is correct. Your loans will be repaid entirely with your aftertax income (not sure why it'd be any other way). Any tax benefit for repaying loan interest disappears past 85k income (around this mark). As a dentist, you can forget about this tax benefit unless you're working part time forever.

The attached Financial Planning Worksheet is attached below. It was created by a Bereno here on SDN.

I've never attended another school. Couldn't tell you if our student body was richer or poorer than anyone else... nor do I care. (that said, really, your interview group was enough of a sample size for you to make that determination...really?)

As for the rest, if one is into min-maxing, sure, that's the way to go. Except that the OP's question was really whether or not the cost was prohibitive to attending UoP. I still stand behind my statement that it's not. The fact that we come out a year ahead does more or less nullify the extra cost. It will not crush you, or make you less successful as a professional. You may come out a bit ahead, or a bit behind, depending on what your income over your lifetime will be. Unless you're into beating yourself, at a game than only you are playing, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference. So anyway, my answer still is: the cost doesn't matter much. Come for the other reasons: the Dugoni family, the excellent education, the clinical skills and the fact that we're better than ATG20.

 

[LogOff]

If I didn't get into the Navy HPSP program I would have thought pretty hard about doing something else. But, it worked out

You have to pull some strings but it's only a 3 year payback at UOP so I don't know why more people aren't doing it. Plus, you get to be an officer in the Navy, how awesome is that? Pretty awesome.

 

[ATG20]

Well, Inngu, you're entitled to your opinion. The OP specifically mentioned the debt-load taken on at this school, so it's fair game to answer it from another perspective. To not do so wouldn't be fair. I'm still not sure how it'll 'nullify' the cost. Perhaps you could quantify that statement for the OP and me, since he's wondering if that debt amount is worth it. Crunch the numbers on interest paid between two different schools, and you'd see that the total interest repaid alone is almost equivalent to your first year salary. If you use the argument that you gain a year on the back-end of your career, simply consider a funded retirement account as I did, and the difference is large and is equivalent to a final year's salary (I used 180k). Between lost opportunity-cost for investment, and the extra interest paid on the loan that may only be 60-80k more, you don't come out ahead at all for that extra-year of practice. I agree that over a career, you may even out, especially if you do very well for yourself, but one can't bank on that alone. I don't doubt that UOP grads do well for themselves and are able to make the minimum on their loans (hence, low-default rate; for laughs, compare default rates among schools. It'd be safe to say dentists default at a low-rate everywhere)

The above is not 'min-maxing.' It's about putting numbers behind a common statement that a private school tells its student body and prospective student body before they sign on the line for a very important decision. He asked how long it'd take to repay, how can he fathom it, etc. Well, here's a brief outlook along with a very reputable and useful Planning Sheet all Pre-dents should use.

As for the first statement, yes '...really'. When I interviewed with the student and admin (he was a dean), they said a large percentage of the student body has alumni relations and that's part of the family aspect of Dugoni. I admired that, but it goes without saying that the children of dentists are more likely to be at an economic and business advantage when attending school and entering the profession, respectively. Hence, me telling the OP to run his own race, and not base his decisions off the nonchalantness of other students who may be in a very different boat. Perfectly sound advice.

Now as I originally stated, there are many valid reasons to attend UOP, but financially, I feel that it isn't. If you disagree, then oh well, I can't convince someone to adopt my opinion. You're welcome to consult the opinions of working dentists on DentalTown. Simply google 'UOP is it worth it: dentaltown.' You'll have a few hundred mixed opinions to hear from there.

 

[ATG20]

If I didn't get into the Navy HPSP program I would have thought pretty hard about doing something else. But, it worked out

You have to pull some strings but it's only a 3 year payback at UOP so I don't know why more people aren't doing it. Plus, you get to be an officer in the Navy, how awesome is that? Pretty awesome.

Congrats! Being from a military background, I can tell you that the life is very exciting. You'll meet a lot of interesting people and see many interesting places, especially in the Navy.

I think some people don't go for HPSP because they have preconceived ideas of what the military is like, and think it's 4 years of boot from Full Metal Jacket (bur blocks in socks, instead of soap, lol) or something. Some say it doesn't work out financially, but I think it's the best deal around, especially for pricier schools. Again, way to go!

 

[lnngu]

Well, Inngu, you're entitled to your opinion. The OP specifically mentioned the debt-load taken on at this school, so it's fair game to answer it from another perspective. To not do so wouldn't be fair. I'm still not sure how it'll 'nullify' the cost. Perhaps you could quantify that statement for the OP and me, since he's wondering if that debt amount is worth it. Crunch the numbers on interest paid between two different schools, and you'd see that the total interest repaid alone is almost equivalent to your first year salary. If you use the argument that you gain a year on the back-end of your career, simply consider a funded retirement account as I did, and the difference is large and is equivalent to a final year's salary (I used 180k). Between lost opportunity-cost for investment, and the extra interest paid on the loan that may only be 60-80k more, you don't come out ahead at all for that extra-year of practice. I agree that over a career, you may even out, especially if you do very well for yourself, but one can't bank on that alone. I don't doubt that UOP grads do well for themselves and are able to make the minimum on their loans (hence, low-default rate; for laughs, compare default rates among schools. It'd be safe to say dentists default at a low-rate everywhere)

I think we're mostly agreeing here, except that you keep talking about "coming out ahead" whereas I'm saying that the extra income more or less makes the extra cost a wash, which you agreed with in your first bolded statement. There must be a level of subtlety I'm missing, here... Great point on the funded retirement account, however, I'd caution there are a lot of smart dentists who lost their funded accounts only 5 years ago. Sometimes, that "easy" 9% isn't all that easy. This isn't to mention that a year of your time has a lot more value than just the dollar amount of a salary.

The above is not 'min-maxing.' It's about putting numbers behind a common statement that a private school tells its student body and prospective student body before they sign on the line for a very important decision. He asked how long it'd take to repay, how can he fathom it, etc. Well, here's a brief outlook along with a very reputable and useful Planning Sheet all Pre-dents should use.

My turn to say "you're entitled to your opinion." J/k. I agree with you. That planning sheet is $$

As for the first statement, yes '...really'. When I interviewed with the student and admin (he was a dean), they said a large percentage of the student body has alumni relations and that's part of the family aspect of Dugoni. I admired that, but it goes without saying that the children of dentists are more likely to be at an economic and business advantage when attending school and entering the profession, respectively. Hence, me telling the OP to run his own race, and not base his decisions off the nonchalantness of other students who may be in a very different boat. Perfectly sound advice.

True, although I don't care much about your characterization of nonchalantness, kool-aid drinking and carefree demeanor. I'm not well off, and a lot of my schoolmates come from humble backgrounds. Even the children of dentists in my class are financing their education, and are perfectly aware of the cost. Sure, there are a few who have everything paid for and are carefree. Shrug. I've found those at every level of education, from HS, to college, to here. I'm sure you'll notice the same thing when you matriculate at UCLA, if you haven't done so already.

Now as I originally stated, there are many valid reasons to attend UOP, but financially, I feel that it isn't. If you disagree, then oh well, I can't convince someone to adopt my opinion. You're welcome to consult the opinions of working dentists on DentalTown. Simply google 'UOP is it worth it: dentaltown.' You'll have a few hundred mixed opinions to hear from there.

Again, my argument is that finance shouldn't be a deterrent to attending UoP. And hey, if you read the very first of my first post, you'll see that I'm all for going to a cheap state school. I think where you and I differ is that I don't consider UCs in that categorie.

 

[ATG20]

Maybe I'm just dollar-obsessed . I think that even if you lose money in an investment vehicle, it'd still be better than if you were paying it back; i.e. you saved 100k over repayment to invest it. Even if your portfolio depreciated significantly, that's still money which is an asset that'll earn. Debt will still be debt though. I come from a similar background, and was basing my statement off what came from my interviewers. There's definitely diversity, but I feel like those who have it easy will always have a 'don't worry about it' mentality, regardless of where you go. For any major decision, one should always know the best case (don't worry, it'll even out) and worst case (my pessimistic take, lol).

Sorry if my word-choice was offensive. At my interview and subsequent tour, I felt like there was too strong of a mantra around this 'year-earlier' thought, and the students I spoke to seemed to buy into this too strongly for the wrong reasoning. One student over lunch said 'Well, you earn 120-130 your first year out on average, so if you look at the difference, you'll be up by X amount.' I was appalled at advice like this because it entirely ignored the concept of interest and repayment plans. I just wanted to ensure Expert had another take.

I don't consider the UCs inexpensive anymore, but they're relatively more affordable. Granted, I'm a unique case where my schooling there won't be anywhere near sticker-price. If I had to pay full-price, I'd take the same considerations. Coincidentally, I used the 300k figure but that's roughly what you'd pay (+/- 25k) for a UC.

OP, Inngu's advice is solid and is the other side of the coin. I hope mine was helpful!! Base your decision off what's important to you.