To DO residents: getting into residency programs

[lindajane]

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I will be a first year at TCOM in the fall (just found out 2 days ago) and I am already dealing with ignorance about osteopathy. I work in a hospital and today one of the oncologists on our unit told me that it will be "really hard" for me to get into a good residency program as a DO and that I will have to be "top in my class."

In my heart I know he is just ignorant about osteopathy...but will some of you share your stories so I can share them with him and thus enlighten one more individual? 🙂

Thanks!

 

[DermRes]

75% of TCOM graduate match MD Residency programs.

All 75% can't be top of the class. I doubt it is the top 75% either

 

[DoctorDoogie4]

The doctor you heard that from is probably misinformed. If there is such a bias to DOs, then why are we granted the same rights and privileges as MDs. A person doesn't call you "Joe Smith, D.O" or "Joe Smith, M.D." They call you "Dr. Smith" As for residency programs, DOs get good residency positions. I have seen DO graduates gain placement in John Hopkins, Harvard, Yale, and Northwestern programs.

 

[nka]

I have also witnessed a negative attitude towards an osteopathic degree. I am going to an osteopathic school this year, and my friend - MD graduate - is strongly advising me to give up my osteopathic idea, and go for an allopathic degree next year. He bases his opinion on the fact that after an osteopathic school I will not get into a good residency, and consequently will not become a good doctor. I am not going to do what he says, but I'm a little concerned with what he says about finding a good residency.

Is there anything that can be done in order to improve your chances to get into a good residency after an osteopathic school?

 

[Behcet]

depends on what you consider a good residency...if simply getting into an MD residency is what you want, then sure, plenty of MD residency programs take DOs. But there's a reason you don't see DOs in Internal Medicine at Mass General...it's the blunt honest truth that DO applicants aren't competitive at most of the power programs in any specialty. I don't mean to degrade anybody or the DO profession as a whole, but it's a simple fact, you will not have an opportunity to compete at most of the real quality programs and your chances to move into academic medicine at a major research institution will also be severely limited. But if you don't aspire to those things, then don't worry about it, just enjoy practicing medicine

 

[group_theory]

Top programs do not actively discriminate against osteopathic medicine. They don't hold that "DO students are inferior to MD students - so when the time comes between DO and MD I'll take MD". The PD and the residency committee are at the point where they know there is no difference between DOs and MDs (in their eyes).

Top programs get tons of applications from many many schools - DOs and MDs. They don't go through and sort it by "MD - god pile, DO - dog pile" - they sort it by USMLE score, clinical grades, LORs, extracurricular activities, membership in AOA (alpha omega alpha, not amer. osteop. assoc.) and school.

In fact, the important thing that they look for (after grades and scores and stuff) is compatibility. They want to see if you can get along with the attendings, current residents, and nursing/supporting staff for the next 3-infinity years. If it comes down to 2 MS-4 students, one from Temple and another from PCOM (both good schools w/ excellent reputations), and both have exactly the same scores, grades, activities, etc.

BUT one is an arrogant prick (from MD) while the other is a compassionate (but reasonable) person (from DO), then they will gladly choose the DO. MD is not the "drop on your knees the gods are here" that people presume it to be. It's a medical degree - just like DO.

However, if you want to get into those top ranked programs - you have a better shot getting in by going to a top-10 MD schools. Other than that, it's fair game for DOs and MDs.

Group_theory
(no data or link to backup my comments except from talking to PDs and residency selection committee members from several highly ranked programs)

 

[oceandocDO]

it's the blunt honest truth that DO applicants aren't competitive at most of the power programs in any specialty. I don't mean to degrade anybody or the DO profession as a whole, but it's a simple fact, you will not have an opportunity to compete at most of the real quality programs and your chances to move into academic medicine at a major research institution will also be severely limited

This broad sweeping generalization may have been true over the last 20 years, but not in the next 20 IMO. With the rapid expansion of D.O.s, the "power programs" are starting to be almost forced into taking some D.O.s. Will they ever outnumber MDs? No. But, it's certainly not as impossible as what it once was. If you get a 90+% on any set of boards, from any school, the upper tier programs will look at you. If you get less than that, the upper tiers wont look at you, no matter the school on your diploma. Period. My D.O. school sent 3 to harvard anesthesiology last year, a pair to upenn and hopkins, a few to mount sinai, etc etc. It can be done. If you're a D.O. student, dont let anyone, especially some premed or early medical student from this board, tell you what can't be done.

As aside: I'm not some hell-bent D.O. student who sees the world through tinted glasses. I've seen reality very close up and I just dont subscribe to the political breeze and rumor mills that often blow through these boards.

 

[drusso]

Hmmmm. I'm a D.O. and graduated from TCOM last year. I'm going to the Mayo Clinic for my residency after internship at JPS. Just look at the TCOM match list for the last 7 years. They routinely send graduates to all the top programs in Texas and beyond. There are graduates in Houston, San Antonio, Dallas, and elsewhere doing everything from family practice to surgery to orthopedics. You name it. There are two internal medicine resident graduates from OMCT (the hospital across the street from TCOM) who are doing oncology fellowships at MD Anderson and Scott and White so I'm not sure what your MD-oncologist friend is talking about. Does he know that Dr. Blanck (the UNTHSC president) was the former US Army Surgeon General, former Dean of the Armed Uniform Services med school, and full professor of internal medicine at Walter Reed? All of this was accomplished during a time when discrimination against DO's was at an all time high. There will **ALWAYS** be those individuals out there who are uninformed about DO's. Just rest assured that TCOM is a great school and you'll have great graduate opportunities...

2002 Match List

 

[Behcet]

like I said, I'm not here to kick up a storm, just to be honest and put information out there. you can always find exceptions to the rule. i will say that i think there are people who belong in "big-name" MD schools, but aren't there, and there are people in those MD schools who don't belong there - the system isn't perfect. but i can tell you from personal experience, interviewing for internal medicine residencies, when you look at the rosters of all the "name" programs that i've visited, there isn't a DO to be found. don't give up your dream - if you're in DO school and you want to do internal medicine at Mass General, go for it...but just realize that you will have to be more exceptional than your MD peers even to get an interview. i'm not here to say that MDs are better than DOs or anything like that, i just think it's good to expose people to reality sometimes...good luck to all of you matching next month, hope you all get the spot you want.

p.s. - to drusso in particular - just because a building has a name on it doesn't mean it's anything like the real thing (see Mayo Jacksonville...). Just because a hospital is affiliated with UTSW doesn't mean you're at the real program - UTSW's nationally renowned IM training program is based out of Parkland, not JPS... don't try to blind these people with flashy names. again, i'm not out to belittle, although this will definitely come across that way - scanning your TCOM match list, i don't see really any program, with the exception of maybe CCF for IM (and overrated program) and the general surgery program at Wilford Hall that anybody I know would even apply to.

 

[dude4]

Dr. Behcet, it would be wonderful to reveal more about yourself. Are you really a medical student (allopathic) and why are you so interested in the osteopathic profession? Either your a foreign grad. and are worried about an osteopath taking your "top" residency slot or your are not really who you say you are!

Here is residency in a nutshell:
Most residencies are underfilled=you will match somewhere (the name of the institute does not make or brake your future, if you are good at what you do and easy to get along with you will become an attending in any city you want)

If you want a difficult residency tract ie derm then good luck (both allo/osteo) because the chances are slim to begin with. The beauty of osteopathy is that the last decade there has been exponential growth in speciallty do slots (both allo and more importany osteo hosps)

PS Behcet...if you are really who you state you are then stick w/ the allo board, because your "tips" are nothing new to the osteo profession (for the last 50 years), and look what has happened....more and more and more osteopaths achieving at incredibly high levels! Every hospital out there as either taken a do extern and most likely a resident!

 

[Su4n2]

my best friend is now finishing SUNY Downstate and going to peds. She has gotten interviews at the top programs- CHOP, Columbia, Hopkins, etc, etc.
i asked her if she saw DO's on the interview trail and she said that there were DO applicants at the top hospitals. she also made another v.good point- she said that in medicine someone will always b looking down on you. i was telling her that i was nervous about people i work with looking down on me. and she told me about the time that she did her sub-i @ columbia and everyone was from the ivies and she also had that feeling. her point? unless u go to the top school, it really make no difference MD or DO. she was the one that brought up the idea of DO for me,
and made me do research about it. so don't sweat it.

 

[skypilot]

Thanks Behcet for your honest opinion. I am sure there is a grain of truth to what is said. But it is also the truth that no doors are closed by graduating as a D.O. If you want to get into a competitive specialty you will have to be a superior candidate no matter which degree you get. The vast majority of graduates aren't superior. Everybody can't be above average 😉 I'm sure a lot of Texans have no interest in moving away from their families to Cambridge to attend Harvard either 😉

 

[drusso]

Originally posted by Behcet
like I said, I'm not here to kick up a storm, just to be honest and put information out there. you can always find exceptions to the rule. i will say that i think there are people who belong in "big-name" MD schools, but aren't there, and there are people in those MD schools who don't belong there - the system isn't perfect. but i can tell you from personal experience, interviewing for internal medicine residencies, when you look at the rosters of all the "name" programs that i've visited, there isn't a DO to be found. don't give up your dream - if you're in DO school and you want to do internal medicine at Mass General, go for it...but just realize that you will have to be more exceptional than your MD peers even to get an interview. i'm not here to say that MDs are better than DOs or anything like that, i just think it's good to expose people to reality sometimes...good luck to all of you matching next month, hope you all get the spot you want.

p.s. - to drusso in particular - just because a building has a name on it doesn't mean it's anything like the real thing (see Mayo Jacksonville...). Just because a hospital is affiliated with UTSW doesn't mean you're at the real program - UTSW's nationally renowned IM training program is based out of Parkland, not JPS... don't try to blind these people with flashy names. again, i'm not out to belittle, although this will definitely come across that way - scanning your TCOM match list, i don't see really any program, with the exception of maybe CCF for IM (and overrated program) and the general surgery program at Wilford Hall that anybody I know would even apply to.

Whatever...if you say so. I can think of countless DO colleagues in quality internal medicine programs big and small, brand-name and not, clinically or research oriented---you name it. I think that you're misinformed. Yes, my transitional year program is UTSW-affiliated, but based out of John Peter Smith Hospital in Fort Worth. I'm staying local because as far as internships go it is just about as good as anywhere else before I go to "the real" Mayo in Rochester, MN for my residency.

There are two DO's I know at Parkland's "nationally renowned" internal medicine program which by reports from some fellow UTSW grads in my program is also "renownedly overrated", but if these things matter to you then you should should contact Kevin Gallagher DO, PhD or Avi Vallurupalli, DO and ask them if they feel like lepers being DO's at Parkland Hospital Internal Medicine program or not. I think you'll find that they in fact do not. They are good guys and very smart, but not exceptional for DO's. They just knew what they wanted for residency. There's no trick to getting a good residency regardless if you're a DO or MD: Get good grades, have good board scores, work hard on the wards, squeeze some research in if possible, do interview rotations at places you like, be impressive, send sincere thank you letters.

 

[Behcet]

to answer dude4's question, i'm an MS4 at an allpathic med school going into IM next year. i'd rather not say which school, but it's a "name" program or whatever you want to call it. my reason for writing on here is that i had several premed friends from college who were placed in the position of having to choose between DO med school, Caribbean MD school, or sitting out a year and reapplying the next year. i realized how little information (and how much misinformation) is out there because of some of the questions they had a hard time getting answered. that's great if there's DOs in IM at UTSW and wherever else. but i think you all have to admit that they're the exception, not the rule. i'm just trying to be honest and put information out there for people trying to make decisions. bottom line is, if you're dedicated, you can accomplish anything, and i'm happy for any and all of you that get the residency you want. if we're as equal as everyone says, then it'd be nice for me and my dissenting opinion not to be shouted down if i take the time to visit this board and express what i have to say. i don't have any ill will towards anybody here

 

[drusso]

Originally posted by Behcet
that's great if there's DOs in IM at UTSW and wherever else. but i think you all have to admit that they're the exception, not the rule. i'm just trying to be honest and put information out there for people trying to make decisions. bottom line is, if you're dedicated, you can accomplish anything, and i'm happy for any and all of you that get the residency you want. if we're as equal as everyone says, then it'd be nice for me and my dissenting opinion not to be shouted down if i take the time to visit this board and express what i have to say. i don't have any ill will towards anybody here

I think that's the point that you don't want to hear: They **ARE** the rule. I am the rule. If you go where you want to go next year then you can be the rule too. How many exceptions to the rule do you need before you decide the "rule" is bogus? Anyone with enough talent, drive, ambition, and tenacity can do whatever they want. This "stigma" about being an osteopathic graduate is so overrated in the premed world. I've written plenty about this topic on this board and if you search my user name you'll see that I aruge that in the real world it basically all comes down to being a competant physician: Be smart, be courteous, be efficient, take consults enthusiastically, don't whine, be nice to nurses, put the patient's needs before your own and lo' and behold the medical world is your oyster.

Are there residency program directors that discriminate against DO's? Sure. So what? There are plenty that don't. The same programs that discriminate against DO's are also likely to discriminate against women, minorities, etc. Do you really want to play in that kind of sandbox? Some DO's like to challenge the system, others do osteopathic residencies in competitive specialties because it offers them more realistic alternatives, others do primary care. What's the problem? In a sense, you have more options as a DO than as a MD.

My advice for premed students is as follows: If you like the osteopathic approach to patient care, are interested in learning manual medicine, think you're likely to be primary care oriented in your eventual medical career then apply to DO schools. If you're not these things, then don't apply. Apply only to MD schools and off-shore medical schools. While you might not be able to get into a DO school, there is always an off-shore school that will take you. Relative "pluses": you won't have to deal withe the "stigma" of being a DO. Relative minuses: Expensive, questionable accreditation standards, big time hassles getting licensed in the US, no moonlighting privileges during residency (because even US FMGs cannot completely get their licenses until **AFTER** residency in most states), and the stigma of being a FMG in your residency program.

 

[skypilot]

They are all in Michigan!

Michigan has 19,592 allopaths
7,780 osteopaths (28% of all physicians in the state).

26% of the physicians in the state are IMGs That's about 7000. That leaves only 12000 US medical grads! I bet they are stigmatized by the 14000 DOs and IMGs.

he he he

😉

 

[Green912]

Well written drusso!

 

[DRek]

Thanks Drusso,
Your statements are encouraging for all of us, who are entering an osteopathic medical school and who have high hopes for our future.
Although I have little experience in the politics of medicine, I can imagine that they exist, just like they exist in every other field. It is something that I think we will have to deal with, depending on where we decide to practice.
HOwever, I don't think that this should be something to get us down, but rather should push us to work a little harder, study a little longer, and be a little better. So what if there is a stigma. Bring it on!!!!

Drek

 

[md-student]

To me, it seems like things are changing for the better for DOs as far as the match. I'm in an allopathic program at a large med center, but each year I'm seeing more and more DO residents in some of the more competetive specialties - ie. radiology.

I'm wondering if there are not as many DOs in general in competetive residencies like surgical sub-specialties because most go into osteopathic schools with plans to do primary care. Is that true?

However, I will say that being at an allopathic school there are lot of people (I should say students) who feel DOs are inferior. Hopefully this won't carry over into residency or careers.

 

[oceandocDO]

However, I will say that being at an allopathic school there are lot of people (I should say students) who feel DOs are inferior. Hopefully this won't carry over into residency or careers

Agreed. The Ivies look down at state schools, surgeons look down at internists, opthlamologists look down at optometrists, the Yankees look down at the Mets, Texas looks down at the rest of the U.S., and we all look down at chiropractors and caribbean schools. Whatever. The world still goes round.

 

[save10]

Texas looks down on the rest of the U.S.?! Ppppppplease! talk about ego.

 

[Digginit]

Originally posted by oceandocDO
and we all look down at chiropractors and caribbean schools. Whatever. The world still goes round.

lol....I love my chiropractor, but I still think it's a toss-up between caribbean medical schools and mainland osteopathic schools.....lol....just kidding....tongue firmly planted in cheek....couldn't resist....

Can't we all just get along?
Lindsey

 

[shanet74]

Originally posted by oceandocDO
Agreed. The Ivies look down at state schools, surgeons look down at internists, opthlamologists look down at optometrists, the Yankees look down at the Mets, Texas looks down at the rest of the U.S., and we all look down at chiropractors and caribbean schools. Whatever. The world still goes round.

I think oceandocDO hit the nail on the head!!!

If you do your job responsibly, respect others, ignore stereotypes, and simply put your best foot forward everyday, you'll get exactly what you deserve.

From my experience, it seems that it depends much more on the person, rather then the title they hold.

 

[lindajane]

wow...lots of opinions.

It is interesting to see terms like "power programs" and "name schools" pop up alongside "good doctor." And here I thought it was about knowing your stuff and having lots of experience with different cases (sick people are the same at Mass General and at Brackenridge Hospital, aren't they??) and having good teachers, about, being compassionate and thorough and well-informed...but apparently there are some in the allopathic world who believe that slapping a name-brand label on someone makes them a defacto "good doctor." Hmmm. I guess we'll see about that...

People like Behcet, along with the well-meaning but misinformed oncologist at my hospital, are helping make it clearer to me every day that I have chosen the medical training that is right for me, and that will be right for my future patients.

Thanks!

 

[Rev. Horace]

Originally posted by lindajane
but apparently there are some in the allopathic world who believe that slapping a name-brand label on someone makes them a defacto "good doctor." Hmmm. I guess we'll see about that...

I've noticed that also. It's kind of funny to go over to the pre-allo board and look at how many of them are concerned where such and such a school was ranked in US News. I guess if you go to one of the top 10 ranked schools you are automatically bestowed all the talent and genius required to be a perfect doctor. 😉

 

[LINY]

quote by Behcet:

"But there's a reason you don't see DOs in Internal Medicine at Mass General...it's the blunt honest truth that DO applicants aren't competitive at most of the power programs in any specialty."

actually about 4 years ago Mass General did take DOs (albeit after a law suit)- the trend is still going today!

and for the record so do other power houses like Harvard! check the records!

 

[oceandocDO]

actually about 4 years ago Mass General did take DOs (albeit after a law suit)- the trend is still going today!

and for the record so do other power houses like Harvard! check the records!

uh, Mass General is Harvard, but we get your point 😉

In regards to the above poster, D.O.s are in the "power programs" in about the same concentration as they are in the general medical professional population, about 10-15% depending on geography. That small percentage often flies in under the radar, but have faith, they do exist. 🙂

 

[Docgeorge]

Heres one for ya all. UC Davis has a whole bunch of DOs in their residency programs; Most espically in their Neurosurg program. 1 this year (a PGY 2) and their chief resident 2 years ago. Hopefully they'll have 1 more in about 4.5 years.

 

[Diane L. Evans]

The way I see it is you are what you make of yourself despite your residency training. Have Confidence. Some professions are better suited by going the allopathic route and this tends to be most people choices if they know they want to pursue fellowships. Regardless do what makes you feel the most comfortable. As far as ignorance over what a DO "can do". There will always be those that question the "capabilities" but this will change as the baby boomers retire and the newer doc's who are more accepting of DO's take their positions.

From my experience DO friendly states include OH, MO, and now even parts of FL.

🙂 Diane

 

[Fin-Nor]

i just wanted to speak about a few things on "brand name" schools or top tier schools.

Remeber those day in high school when everyone was worried about which undergraduate university they were going to attend? I'm from texas, so it was "UT-Austin," "Texas A&M," "Texas Tech," "HBU" and so forth. I attended my city's university - U of Houston.

Once you past that stage, no one really cares anymore. If you make the grades, put forth the efforts, and show dedication, you will end up in the same boat with all your colleagues. If you don't show your capabilities, you won't make it anywhere. likewise, if you do, many doors will be open to you along with the rest of the "brand name" graduates that you once went to HS with.

So, IMHO, a degree from one school is like a degree from another. It's what you put in for attaining that degree that will differentiate you from others. IE - grades, scores, etc...

So in short, I would suggest (for those worrying) to stop worrying about these "horror stories" and worry about getting the proper education needed so that you will be the "best" physcian you can be.

From my experience in the medical field, patients really just care about getting the proper treatment that they are seeking for. They don't seek out where you did your residency. 🙂

 

[Fin-Nor]

BTW, texans do think highly of themselves just by association. Im not originally from texas so i noticed it too at first.

"Don't Mess With Texas" baby!! 😀