To Drop or Not to Drop?

[Dullhead]

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Bit of a long post, so skip if TL.

Need some opinions on my options and how to handle the pickle I'm in. I have a foreign BS and an MS in engineering from a UC (both more than 10 years old). I've been in DIY postbacc mode at a local community college district for a bit now. The district has two CCs. One is fine and I try my best to pick courses there. However, I sometimes have to enroll at the other CC in the district. This other CC's science dept. is a major grade deflator. Yes, I know it sounds strange that a CC can be a grade deflator, but I really believe this is the case.

I have taken 59 credits up to this point with all non-science pre-reqs done and all science pre-reqs done except the OChem series and Biochem. I also plan on taking a Bio III - whether that's evolutionary and ecological Bio or Biostats, I'm not sure yet (some DO schools require 3 semesters of Bio). I will also probably take 3-4 non-science courses to bring total credits up to 90. Since I'm only taking the non-scis to bring total credits to 90, I will take courses such as basket weaving. My planned worst grades are As in the non-scis, a B in Biochem (online), and an A in Bio III.

I'm enrolled in the grade deflating CC for OChem I right now. The instructor is very friendly and teaches real well. His philosophy is to start everyone at sea level (C-level), which is fine, BUT assignments and grading are the issue. With half the semester done, I'm firmly at C-level with a 10% chance of sinking to D-level. I'm not concerned about learning the material for the MCAT - I'll do that. My concern is GPA. My planned worst grade for this course was a B. Current sGPA = 3.87. With a C on this, B on OChem II and Biochem, and an A in Bio III, sGPA = 3.54. cGPA will suffer a bit less, and will end up at 3.7.

Option I - keep the course, risk the 10% chance of a D. It will hurt if I end with the D because I won't be able to apply next June with a D grade on a pre-req (please advise if possible to apply AACOMAS with a D and a "pending" retake.)

Option II - wait to see how I do on the next exam and then drop with a W before the deadline if no good. Apply next June. Take the OChem series and Biochem online.

Option III - drop now and take OChem I, II, Biochem all online AFTER applying next year. Alternatively, start taking OChem I online right now if possible. List remaining as pending and take them online, back to back.

Would like to know your thoughts.

 

[Shotapp]

My vote is withdraw. Protect that GPA at all cost. Study very well for O Chem I over the winter break and take a crack at it again next semester.

 

[Dullhead]

My vote is withdraw. Protect that GPA at all cost. Study very well for O Chem I over the winter break and take a crack at it again next semester.

Thanks for replying. I can't take it next sem (Spring). It is only offered in the Fall semester at this CC (and OChem II only in Spring), so I'll have to add a full year for the sequence. Does that change your recommendation? Any thoughts on online courses?

 

[Shotapp]

I would opt for the online format so you can be on track but make sure the reviews are good for the course.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

I would opt for the online format so you can be on track but make sure the reviews are good for the course.

Most schools will not accept online courses, particularly for prereqs...

One C won't kill your application, but a D will sure hurt. Also, many schools (all?) require a US/Canadian college degree. You may need to enroll to get that degree to be able to apply. I'm not sure if the MS would remove that requirement, though I doubt it...

 

[Shotapp]

I agree with the post above. I gave poor advice. Don't do any science course especially prereqs online as that will limit your options.

 

[esob]

D stands for death, don't take the D at all costs.

 

[Dullhead]

One C won't kill your application, but a D will sure hurt. Also, many schools (all?) require a US/Canadian college degree. You may need to enroll to get that degree to be able to apply. I'm not sure if the MS would remove that requirement, though I doubt it...

Yeah, I'm willing to take the C, but it's the chance of the D that scares me. As to the second part, I know people who got in with foreign undergrad and fewer than the number of postbacc credits I have right now. So I know for sure it can be done without a full bachelor's. However, some schools will not accept less than a BS. Jefferson is one such example. At most schools, it seems to me it's so infrequent that they evaluate it on a case-by-case basis. Regardless, I'll have the min required 90 credits that most list on their webpages.

D stands for death, don't take the D at all costs.

Problem is I won't know until it's right on top of me. But for the D to happen, I will need to get 5s and 6s/10 on the remaining HWs and quizzes (about 6 each remaining), 65/100 on all remaining labs (about 6), and 70/100 each on the remaining two exams. If all of that happens, the final grade will be 67.5% which will be a D. At another institute, I would never even consider it a possibility, but this particular CC has given me trouble twice in the past.

 

[esob]

I would get some serious tutoring if you plan to stick it out b/c a "D" in a prereq will be a killer. Unlike some obscure class that you can explain away as being extremely difficult (I have a Christian history class that was like that, which required weekly treatise length papers on Irenaeus, Origen, St. Thomas, etc), every other applicant will have taken Ochem so it will stand as a metric that you can be judged against mercilessly.

 

[Dullhead]

I would get some serious tutoring if you plan to stick it out b/c a "D" in a prereq will be a killer.

I want to post an update. I have 2 days to drop but I'm keeping the class.

Exam 2 was last Fri. It had a 10 point curve/bonus. My score was 97/110 (88%) but due to the curve/bonus, grade received was 97%. My score was the highest in the class. I lost 3-4 points on incomplete responses to a couple questions (autopilot mode, did not read question prompt fully) and lost 2 points here and there for "convention" mistakes (I disagree with the deductions, but whatever). I could have had a 103 if not for those mistakes. This exam was easier than the HW problems (unusual) and had no trick questions unlike Exam 1 which did. The material really is not the problem. It's the way the instructor handles assignments and grading. I can post details but it'll come off as whining.

But anyway, I'm keeping the class. There's only 5 weeks left and I don't know if there's an Exam 3 and a final back to back in the last week. I'm assuming only a final. I'll need like a 25/100 on the final to get a D, anything between 25-70 for a C, between 70 - high 80s to get a B- and 95+ to push it to a B. So a B- is very likely and it's going to be close but I'm going to push hard for a B.

I did not know until recently but apparently some 20% of the class are repeats and some of them are heading towards their second D in a row with this instructor. I believe there is at least one person in this class who is taking it a third time and possibly heading for their third D in this class - I have no idea what's going on there.

 

[WGSgrad]

There's only 5 weeks left and I don't know if there's an Exam 3 and a final back to back in the last week. I'm assuming only a final. I'll need like a 25/100 on the final to get a D, anything between 25-70 for a C, between 70 - high 80s to get a B- and 95+ to push it to a B. So a B- is very likely and it's going to be close but I'm going to push hard for a B.

Congrats on the improving prospects.

But seriously, this class doesn't have a syllabus?

 

[Dullhead]

Congrats on the improving prospects. But seriously, this class doesn't have a syllabus?

You tell me. See attached.

 

[Dullhead]

@WGSgrad

Not exams, but here's an example.

Overheard this joke in the tutoring center where one of my classmates was talking with the tutor (student from a previous semester, I think). So when's the lab report due? Answer - it isn't due until it's due.

Day of expt: So Dr. __, when's the lab report due? "Don't worry about it, we'll discuss it next week"
Week 2: So Dr. ___, when's the lab report due? "Don't worry about it, we'll discuss it next week"
Week 3: Dr. ___ announces in Thursday class - "Turn in your lab report tomorrow. Monday lab folks, turn it in Monday"

Took me 4 weeks to figure out this pattern. Now I don't wait.

However, there were some labs where they told us to save the distillate because the GC machine was down - Dr. ___ says we'll do the GC part next week and figure out product purity (or composition or whatever when the machine is back up) so I waited. Some weeks later on a Thursday - Dr. ___ says GC machine will not be repaired in time. Turn in your lab reports tomorrow or Monday. Skip the last question and calculation on the lab report. Turn in the rest. Me - @#$%

 

[Dullhead]

One more whine and I'll shut up.

Exam 2 (Friday last week) was announced last Tuesday, for Friday lab folks. I did not get a weekend to study. I got 3 days - Tue, Wed, Thu. Yes, I should be studying throughout the week, but that's not how it works with employment and other life commitments. It would have been good to have a weekend to study. Monday lab folks got the weekend. Presumably the Friday folks did not share the exam questions with the Monday folks...

 

[esob]

Oh Gawd, you're on a +/- grading system? I would have picked a different school 😀

 

[Dullhead]

Oh Gawd, you're on a +/- grading system? I would have picked a different school 😀

I like +/-. It offers a better gpa.

 

[esob]

I like +/-. It offers a better gpa.

How's that, your 94%'s are worth 3.75 while a typical system gives out 4.0's for 90 %'s.

 

[Dullhead]

How's that, your 94%'s are worth 3.75 while a typical system gives out 4.0's for 90 %'s.

Ah, but I think I've experienced +/- a bit differently. What I've experienced is:

A/B has 80-89 = B, 90 - 100 = A. Get an 89.4 and you've got a B.
A/B with +/- has 80-83 = B, 83-86 = B+, 87-89 = A-, 90-100 = A. This can be different depending on instructor. The OChem I class I'm taking right now has a B+ = 88 and A- = 89-90.

With those conditions, if I had an 89.4, I'd much rather prefer an A- (3.7) than a B (3.0). Even a B+ for an 88 (3.3) would be better than a B (3.0).

My Gen Chem II at this CC two years ago was a B+. My total for the semester was 86.5. I am glad for the extra 0.33 (+) instead of a straight B on this course.

 

[WGSgrad]

@WGSgrad

Not exams, but here's an example.

Overheard this joke in the tutoring center where one of my classmates was talking with the tutor (student from a previous semester, I think). So when's the lab report due? Answer - it isn't due until it's due.

Day of expt: So Dr. __, when's the lab report due? "Don't worry about it, we'll discuss it next week"
Week 2: So Dr. ___, when's the lab report due? "Don't worry about it, we'll discuss it next week"
Week 3: Dr. ___ announces in Thursday class - "Turn in your lab report tomorrow. Monday lab folks, turn it in Monday"

Took me 4 weeks to figure out this pattern. Now I don't wait.

However, there were some labs where they told us to save the distillate because the GC machine was down - Dr. ___ says we'll do the GC part next week and figure out product purity (or composition or whatever when the machine is back up) so I waited. Some weeks later on a Thursday - Dr. ___ says GC machine will not be repaired in time. Turn in your lab reports tomorrow or Monday. Skip the last question and calculation on the lab report. Turn in the rest. Me - @#$%

Yea...that syllabus is a **** show. I know you're at a CC but I am wondering if this professor is tenured? If not, at least at a four year university (like where I teach), continued complaints from students in year end evaluations about the syllabus would definitely cause the department to take a once over it and that syllabus definitely wouldn't pass muster.

 

[Dullhead]

Yea...that syllabus is a **** show. I know you're at a CC but I am wondering if this professor is tenured? If not, at least at a four year university (like where I teach), continued complaints from students in year end evaluations about the syllabus would definitely cause the department to take a once over it and that syllabus definitely wouldn't pass muster.

I'm not 100% sure. I know he's been there many years (10+). One college webpage lists him as professor (tenured). The staff directory lists him as instructor (1 or 2-year contract).

Teaches very well and I actually like his style of instruction. It's the rest of it that's the problem.

 

[Dullhead]

@WGSgrad - update. I wasn't sure if there was an Exam 3 followed by the final. 2 weeks before the last week, Dr. ___ announces on Thu that there'll be a Quiz/Exam next Thu. So we had a quixam that was worth 50 points. The kids asked him if it was a quiz (10% weight) or an exam (40% weight). "Don't worry about it, you'll be fine". I assume it was a quiz because that's what the title on the page said. Final was an ACS 2014 form. 70 questions, 110 minutes standard stuff. Said he would drop a few of the questions because he had not covered those topics in class. I don't know what I got on the final lab report or the ACS, but assuming that the lab report was an 80, I would have needed a 76 on the ACS to keep the B, based on the grade report he gave me on the day of the quixam (80.4% excluding the quixam, final lab report and ACS final). Final grade posted a couple of hours ago and is a B.

Most difficult B I ever earned. And unfortunately due to scheduling, the only convenient class for OChem II next sem is the same guy. I'm signed up for his class but at least I know his shenanigans now. For the homeworks, study 1 lecture ahead (sometimes assigns problems before teaching them in class). For quizzes, study 2 lectures previous (always says study this lecture for the quiz and then assigns 8/10 questions from the previous two lectures. Catches half the class off guard). Lab reports are a complete toss up based on whim or some tiny detail. Can be anywhere from 60 to 100. But now I have a plan.

I'm just venting now, but initially I signed up for OChem II at the other CC in this district. During lab, Dr. ___ comes up to me and says - I don't see you on the roster, did you not sign up? So I tell him I'm signed up at the other place. He asks why. I did not have the heart to tell him it's because I want to save my GPA. Eventually I realized I could not make that other class work. It has the lab broken up into two 3-hr slots on 2 days. With lecture on two days and lab on two days, I'd have to show up to work at noon every day. I could not have made that work. So I switched over to Dr. ___ and told him. He says - good, we need some strong students like you next sem. I can't believe that I barely scraped a B and that counts as a strong student. Indicates to me that somewhat less than half of the class gets a D or worse, little over a third get Cs, somewhat less than a third get low-mid Bs and maybe 3-4 students in this class of 25 get B+, A-, or A.

 

[WGSgrad]

Congrats on pulling off the "B"... if only adcoms knew of all the work behind that letter.

I think you are much more forgiving and patient that I...that quizam would have been the last straw for me. But it also seems like you're in a tough spot with your work schedule.

So...no curve or is there a chance you didn't get +95 on the exam but got pulled up?

I mean, I guess you are forewarned but it doesn't seem like that makes it any easier. Hopefully you feel like you know the material cold and this torture will help you when it comes time to prep for the MCAT.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Dullhead]

Congrats on pulling off the "B"... if only adcoms knew of all the work behind that letter.

I think you are much more forgiving and patient that I...that quizam would have been the last straw for me. But it also seems like you're in a tough spot with your work schedule.

So...no curve or is there a chance you didn't get +95 on the exam but got pulled up?

I mean, I guess you are forewarned but it doesn't seem like that makes it any easier. Hopefully you feel like you know the material cold and this torture will help you when it comes time to prep for the MCAT.

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Thanks. I don't think there was a curve. The final being worth 15%, a 76 was sufficient to keep the B as long as I also got a B (80) on the final lab report. If I had a 100/100 on the final, my cumulative would have been 83.5%, and that's still a B and several points away from the B+ (88%). Is that what you were asking?

 

[WGSgrad]

Thanks. I don't think there was a curve. The final being worth 15%, a 76 was sufficient to keep the B as long as I also got a B (80) on the final lab report. If I had a 100/100 on the final, my cumulative would have been 83.5%, and that's still a B and several points away from the B+ (88%). Is that what you were asking?

Yup. Earlier in the thread you mentioned that you'd needed a 95 to keep the "B." You kept the "B" so I figured you got the 95. But if you did that well on the final, I was wondering why he didn't pull you up (many instructors will award that sort of dramatic turnaround between start and end of the semester). But the difference in your final grade, even if you did get a 100, and a "B+" is too great for a "good work" bump.

In any instance, congrats again.


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[Dullhead]

Yup. Earlier in the thread you mentioned that you'd needed a 95 to keep the "B." You kept the "B" so I figured you got the 95. But if you did that well on the final, I was wondering why he didn't pull you up (many instructors will award that sort of dramatic turnaround between start and end of the semester). But the difference in your final grade, even if you did get a 100, and a "B+" is too great for a "good work" bump.

In any instance, congrats again.

Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Oh, gotcha. I forgot about that. My estimate of 95 earlier was based on assumptions on the remaining lab reports, quizzes and HWs at that time. I used the worst case scenario of 70s on the lab reports, 6s on the quizzes and HWs. Did better than 6s on most of the HW, around 6.5ish average on the quizzes and better than 70s on lab reports. The 45/50 on the quixam helped (I had assumed no Exam 3, so the 90% score on that helped. It would have helped a lot more if counted as an exam which would have been 40% weight). Also, this will get you - his syllabus says a B=81-87%A=91-99, but he really was using B=80-87 and A=90-99. So gained one whole percent point there, which reduced my final exam score requirement even more.

I put lab report scores low because my lab report grades are so random - from the 60s to 100. One lab report he marked me down 10 full points (I estimate based on the rubric) for not "typing". We are allowed to handwrite calculations, chemical equations etc. The part that I had not typed was literally the words ahead of the calculation. For example, "The calculated yield is" followed by handwritten math. He wanted those 4 words to be typed, and likewise for each expression in the calc section. Gets to be a pain to type the lead words, then handwrite expressions only to find out that you did not have enough blank lines to fit the calc before the next line etc. Then you have to print the page again after adding more blank lines. And oh, no pencil, pen only. So much wasted time. But I'm going to use all the lessons learned in this class to do better in the next.

No more handwritten calculations - now I do them all in equation editor regardless. Chews up a good hour more per report when there is no good reason - but this CC has an unspoken mission of trying to teach the kids "life" would be my best guess. In Gen Chem II, we had to clean our lab space and hood before leaving. Even if it was spotlessly clean (it was), she would find some fake spot left behind and make me clean some more. Lab was from 7.00 - 10.00 pm but you could not leave if you got done early. You had to stay behind and do calcs or HW or something else. Best case you could leave at 9.40 pm. I guess their way of teaching kids about life and hard work etc. And I will agree that some kids are very lazy, but a lot of them are hardworking and don't need to be taught the value of hard work.

 

[Dullhead]

There are clowns instructing premed coursework like this guy. The key with these guys is to get out with a "B" or better, which you did. Congratulations on that!

Thanks. I think it's not the guy but the entire science dept that has a policy of being harsh and grade deflators. The guy is nice, teaches very well and I liked him on a personal level also. However, this is the 3rd science course at this CC and all 3 have given me trouble. Gen Chem II - escaped with a B+. Cell and Mol Bio - barely scraped an A - 89.6 rounded up. This class, B. OChem II, gonna try for that B+/A- with the new knowledge I have on this guy.

 

[Dullhead]

I avoid these guys like the plague

My GC 1 professor handed out a 2.0 average...average on final was 68 and never curved. Did it in lame way too - by simple concepts but through exhaustive dimensional analysis. Damned near killed myself for that A.

I don't think the guy had known womanly comforts in years, and he was 60 with no pubs. The GC2 professor gave out a 3.3

I agree. I killed myself for that A in Cell Mol Bio too, so I know the feelz. Without the extra credit portion, 10/20 in the class got a D, and there were no As. There were 3 Bs, rest Cs and 10 Ds. With the extra credit, 2 As and slightly more Bs and Cs. Still 6-7 Ds in a class of 20. There were only 4 lab reports in that class, and my first one was a 58/100. That guy was like your GC 1 - single, nearing retirement and came across as a total DBag. But he got friendlier if you went to office hours. Because of the B in OChem I, I now have to go back to him after 1 year and ask for an LoR. I was lucky to take Physics I/II at the other CC. Much different experience - almost way too easy and dumbed down. It's a mixed bag at this CC District.