to hope or despair?

[yonex]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

i was very positive that i would get matched. I got 2 personal handwritten letters from the PD of my top choice. The letters were so positive that i have been convinced i was a truly great candidate for them. The letters were far from being generic. Unfortuanately, i did not match. I know many would say that a lot of PD's today are just BS, wanting only to sell their stuff. Yes, i want to believe that, but part of me is hanging on to the benefit of the doubt. A friend of mine told me i should try contacting the PD and just ask what went wrong, if there is anything i can do to maybe increase my chances to match with them in the future. Perhaps hardwork and perseverance would pay off. To BKN or PDinthe USa or anyone else, can u kindly give me your opinion about this. I am disheartened not to get matched.

 

[HP11]

That really sucks. I have lost a lot of respect for the field after learning about the bull**** that goes on with these programs.

Why do you want to go to a place that has a PD that treated you in this manner. You can call him to find out what happened, but, if he gives you some lame story, I would tell him off if I were you. Go somewhere else next year. This BS should be looked into by the NRMP. It is shameful and a disgrace. 😡

 

[inositide]

You should at least call the PD and ask what happened. Maybe he/she will come to realize how wrong it is to lead applicants on and then leave them hanging at the end.

I assume that the PD made strong implications but did not guarantee a spot.
None the less, I would still find out what happened.

Sadly, the moral of the story is: "You aint matched 'til you're matched."

 

[Poety]

I agree with inositide - the situation SUCKS - I got courted by a lot of programs too but unless I heard EXACTLY where I was ranked - I wasn't buying it. Especially after doing the math (ie 10 slots/100 interviews - come on, me and who else is "at the top of our list" pfftt)

I would call the PD - I've had a program ask me what went wrong - it was geographical in that sense, but if they can ask me - why can't we ask them ya know?

Plus, I think if you were told anything more than "You're a great fit" or "We'd love to see you here" or "You're at the top of our list" anything like: "You can buy a house here and feel confident, want to use my realtor?" or "You're ranked number ....." then DEFINITELY call!

Good luck, and I'm sorry about your situation 🙁

 

[njbmd]

i was very positive that i would get matched. I got 2 personal handwritten letters from the PD of my top choice. The letters were so positive that i have been convinced i was a truly great candidate for them. The letters were far from being generic. Unfortuanately, i did not match. I know many would say that a lot of PD's today are just BS, wanting only to sell their stuff. Yes, i want to believe that, but part of me is hanging on to the benefit of the doubt. A friend of mine told me i should try contacting the PD and just ask what went wrong, if there is anything i can do to maybe increase my chances to match with them in the future. Perhaps hardwork and perseverance would pay off. To BKN or PDinthe USa or anyone else, can u kindly give me your opinion about this. I am disheartened not to get matched.

Hi there,
I think you found out the hard way, that the program director only has one vote in determining the rank list. There were simply too many people that were ranked higher than you that accepted positions. This is why you need to interview at plenty of places and rank enough across the board to get matched. Almost everyone I have every heard or not matching either picked too many programs that they were a marginal applicant for (got the interview but lower stats than others who got interviewed) or did not rank enough programs because they were "assured by the PD" that they would be matching.

You choices now are to scramble into a preliminary position somewhere and try again next year or scramble into another program and consider yourself lucky to have a job.

njbmd 🙂

 

[Poety]

Hi there,
I think you found out the hard way, that the program director only has one vote in determining the rank list. There were simply too many people that were ranked higher than you that accepted positions. This is why you need to interview at plenty of places and rank enough across the board to get matched. Almost everyone I have every heard or not matching either picked too many programs that they were a marginal applicant for (got the interview but lower stats than others who got interviewed) or did not rank enough programs because they were "assured by the PD" that they would be matching.

You choices now are to scramble into a preliminary position somewhere and try again next year or scramble into another program and consider yourself lucky to have a job.

njbmd 🙂

Although this is true, I'd have to say that the PD and chair often have veto power to rank where they want. Moreover, the PD usually knows where you're going to be ranked so their feedback should be according to what the rank meetings concluded.

If you're torn up about this just call - it can't hurt and it will put your mind at ease in the end 🙂

 

[dinosaurcrumpet]

Hi there,
I think you found out the hard way, that the program director only has one vote in determining the rank list. There were simply too many people that were ranked higher than you that accepted positions. This is why you need to interview at plenty of places and rank enough across the board to get matched. Almost everyone I have every heard or not matching either picked too many programs that they were a marginal applicant for (got the interview but lower stats than others who got interviewed) or did not rank enough programs because they were "assured by the PD" that they would be matching.

You choices now are to scramble into a preliminary position somewhere and try again next year or scramble into another program and consider yourself lucky to have a job.

njbmd 🙂

Translation: That's something we do at UVA all the time.

 

[dinosaurcrumpet]

i was very positive that i would get matched. I got 2 personal handwritten letters from the PD of my top choice. The letters were so positive that i have been convinced i was a truly great candidate for them. The letters were far from being generic. Unfortuanately, i did not match. I know many would say that a lot of PD's today are just BS, wanting only to sell their stuff. Yes, i want to believe that, but part of me is hanging on to the benefit of the doubt. A friend of mine told me i should try contacting the PD and just ask what went wrong, if there is anything i can do to maybe increase my chances to match with them in the future. Perhaps hardwork and perseverance would pay off. To BKN or PDinthe USa or anyone else, can u kindly give me your opinion about this. I am disheartened not to get matched.

Tell us which program it was. Publicity is the ONLY deterrent.

 

[Chianti]

***

 

[hdu]

I have read similar problems in other forums.
I think it is highly unethical and the only thing I can tell you is to be happy of not being working in such an unethical environment.
What kind of lies can be rolling there, when the PD does not hesitate in disencourage you to apply for other positions, knowing that it can means that you may not be able to enter residence if they do not accept you?

 

[snoozz]

i am sorry that this happened, it sucks. but i hope you ranked more than these 2 places. btw, to those of you who want to announce the program, how would you feel that if there were a pd forum where they post names of students that claim to rank place #1 but ended up in another program. (i am sure there are lots of you out there ...).

i agree with what everyone else said, you can NOT buy into those letter from PD. just as students send letters to multiple programs that they are ranking them high, programs do the same, there is no guarantee for anything until actual match day.

there are lots of variation between how program does things. i, for one, matched into my #1 place, but never heard a peep out of them. i admire PDs that strictly follow the rules; i wish everyone could do the same - no contact AT ALL between applicants and PDs.

just my 2cents

 

[ShambhalaRed]

there are lots of variation between how program does things. i, for one, matched into my #1 place, but never heard a peep out of them. i admire PDs that strictly follow the rules; i wish everyone could do the same - no contact AT ALL between applicants and PDs.

just my 2cents

I agree with this for the most part. Many people I know got phone calls or letters from PDs, and I didn't. It made me feel like ****, and made the waiting for the match all the more stressful. I got my #2, and I had absolutely no idea how the program felt about me.

Just another gripe about PDs contacting applicants: a friend of mine got a call from his PD *30 mins* before the match congratulating him on matching there!!!! WTF!? It totally ruined the experience of the whole match surprise for him (our school has everyone open their envelopes simultaneously at a brunch-type party). If that had been me I would have been totally miffed - imagine starting residency knowing that your PD doesn't even know what common courtesy is...

Anyway, whatever. This is a totally weird process and I'm glad I'm done with it.

 

[inositide]

There is absolutely no rule against PDs contacting applicants or applicants contacting PDs. The only rule is that neither party can ask the other party how each will rank the other.

If a PD says "I will be putting you #1 on my list this year", or if the applicants tells the PD "I will rank your program #1", then both are within the rules.

HOWEVER, PDs always take this sort of comment with a pinch of salt and so should the applicant.

I personally believe that it is very wrong for a PD to lead an applicant on like that, but in some fields like Internal Medicine where the program size is so large, it can become a rat race to get the top applicants AND fill your program at the same time.

If you truly feel jilted you can certainly post the name of the program here and future applicants will be weary. I will tell you that if an applicants leads a PD on big time, but then ranks some other program # 1 and goes to this other program, then many programs will make sure that the applicant is blacklisted from future fellowship applications at the jilted program. Applicants can do the same sort of thing by naming the program at which the behavior is strange.

 

[DRDARIA]

In the PDs defense (I'm playing Devil's Advocate a little bit here), he/she may have legitimately believed you'd match-- it has been a bit of a strange year, and I have a friend who was essentially told the same as you and he didn't match with the program. He called to find out why, and they told him based on previous years numbers of candidates they list to fill, they thought he would be there for his residency (if he ranked them #1), but it didn't happen this year. Fortunately, he did match elsewhere, and at what many would consider a better program, just not the one he most wanted to be at.

 

[HP11]

No need to play the devil's advocate. The number of stories out there plus my own personal experience dictate that PDs know exactly what they're doing and will not stop unless reprimanded by NRMP.

So, now applicant pool goes up in number and quality and this makes it okay for PDs to bull**** people and play with our livelihood?

Look, they shouldn't write these letters unless they're 100% serious and certain of their decision.

 

[Rael]

To the Originator of this thread: How many programs did you interview at and how many did you rank? If you hadn't received those letters from the PDs, would you have ranked more programs? Or did you rank all that you could have anyway?
Unless you have worked with these PDs before or know them quite well, you are essentially trusting you future to a stranger if you put too much faith into what they say. Even if 90% of PDs are ethical and play by the rules and only a small fraction deceive people, isn't your future important enough to not let these people dictate your next move?
If I were you, I'd take a prelim spot this year if you find something desirable, then try again next year. Apply broadly and rank several programs.
Also, it can't hurt to contact the PD and ask what happened. It might help you be better prepared if you have to go thru this match process again.
Now I don't know what those PDs told you, but unless they told you that you were ranked #1 thru X for X amount of openings, or that you were "ranked to match," they were otherwise probably just doing what many PDs do and not committing/being too specific...which isn't really illegal.
So sorry this happened to you. I hope everything works out and you end up getting what you want in the end. Don't give up.

 

[8744]

Now hang on. I got a "love letter" form a program director which was very flattering but was also careful to make clear that he couldn't predict the results of the match and wasn't guaranteeing anything. (and I matched below this program)


Suppose your number one and number two program each ranked 50 people to fill ten spots. Suppose that these are much sought after programs which only have to go down a few below their quota to fill. The program director may have been perfectly sincere as he would actually love to have you. Unfortunately if you were ranked 13 or 14 out of fifty, still a high rank, you might not match.

Now, if he told you that you would match there if you ranked them number one then he is a tool. But I think this shows that you need to apply to more programs next year.

 

[8744]

If you truly feel jilted you can certainly post the name of the program here and future applicants will be weary.

Good post. Bad advice.

I was told last year by one program director that I wasn't ranked because of my age. Believe it or not.

I guess technically I have the grounds for a discrimination lawsuit but seriously, what would be the point of that? Are they going to go back and run the match program again giving me another chance? In the meantime am I going to get a reputation as a hyper-sensitive grievance monger to be shunned by everyone? Nobody's application is so perfect that a program can't find some reason not to interview you. Heck, they don't even need a reason.

Keep the name of the program to yourself. Put on a happy face. Chalk it up to experience and try again next year.

 

[Hitch]

He called to find out why, and they told him based on previous years numbers of candidates they list to fill, they thought he would be there for his residency (if he ranked them #1), but it didn't happen this year.

Perhaps, for the sake of clarity, the PD should have worded his letter a little differenty. Something like this maybe:

Dear Applicant,

We were quite impressed by your interview and record. There were, of course, many other candidates who impressed up more than you and who we would rather have in our program. We have ranked you in a position that offers you a statistically realistic chance of matching with us. However, you are not ranked to match as we have placed many other canditates who we judge to be better than you higher on our list. We hope that we will lucky enough to match with a candidate who is better than you, but on the somewhat likely offchance that you match with us, we look forward to seeing you again in june.

Sincerely,

Slimy Program Director




So much more clear, don't you think? 🙂

 

[8744]

Perhaps, for the sake of clarity, the PD should have worded his letter a little differenty. Something like this maybe:

Dear Applicant,

We were quite impressed by your interview and record. There were, of course, many other candidates who impressed up more than you and who we would rather have in our program. We have ranked you in a position that offers you a statistically realistic chance of matching with us. However, you are not ranked to match as we have placed many other canditates who we judge to be better than you higher on our list. We hope that we will lucky enough to match with a candidate who is better than you, but on the somewhat likely offchance that you match with us, we look forward to seeing you again in june.

Sincerely,

Slimy Program Director




So much more clear, don't you think? 🙂

You guys are taking not matching entirely too personally. I'm sure every program interviews a few superstars who are head and shoulders above every other candidate who they rank in the top couple of spots. The rest of their rank order list is probably just broad categories of good, decent, and acceptable.

With this in mind, there is probably no real difference between being ranked number nine versus number twelve except that number nine will definitely match if they rank the program number one and number twelve might not.

No need to be petulant. The program is not dissing' you because they didn't rank you to match.

 

[jashanley]

To be the Devil's Advocate ---
Do you have any idea how many letters a program receives saying that the applicant is definitely ranking their program #1. I have heard people speak to a PD and tell him to his face that they are ranking his program #1 and they miraculously end up at another program. Hmmmm.

Don't you think the bullsh-t is a two-way street?
Never, ever put stock in the letters from programs. You'll just be burned.

 

[8744]

I mean, seriously, it's not called the "lying season" for nothing.

 

[Hitch]

You guys are taking not matching entirely too personally. I'm sure every program interviews a few superstars who are head and shoulders above every other candidate who they rank in the top couple of spots. The rest of their rank order list is probably just broad categories of good, decent, and acceptable.

With this in mind, there is probably no real difference between being ranked number nine versus number twelve except that number nine will definitely match if they rank the program number one and number twelve might not.

No need to be petulant. The program is not dissing' you because they didn't rank you to match.

No panda. I matched. And I ranked programs I got "love letters" from lower than where I matched so I'll never know if they were sincere. But I find the whole process amusing as you might have guessed if you had an intact sense of humor.

 

[8744]

No panda. I matched. And I ranked programs I got "love letters" from lower than where I matched so I'll never know if they were sincere. But I find the whole process amusing as you might have guessed if you had an intact sense of humor.

I was referring to the OP as far as not matching. Sorry.

 

[yonex]

thanks for posting all your sincere advises about this matter. I think i would try to contact the PD and just ask what happened. I think i deserve to know. I have loved this program from the start, it has always been my first choice and i wasn't expecting so much in the beginning. But i got my hopes up when I started receving those letters. It really sucks bec the people around me were so sure that i will match and i never did. I hope the PD didn't have to write me love letters only to reject me in the end. I don't understand why a highly reputable institution need to do this, they surely are not desperate for applicants to match with them.

 

[lateness]

Good post. Bad advice.

I was told last year by one program director that I wasn't ranked because of my age. Believe it or not.

I guess technically I have the grounds for a discrimination lawsuit but seriously, what would be the point of that? Are they going to go back and run the match program again giving me another chance? In the meantime am I going to get a reputation as a hyper-sensitive grievance monger to be shunned by everyone? Nobody's application is so perfect that a program can't find some reason not to interview you. Heck, they don't even need a reason.

Keep the name of the program to yourself. Put on a happy face. Chalk it up to experience and try again next year.

thats bul*****!! b/c of age? do they think that someone is too old to do a 3 year residency? that they are going to croak in pgy1 or 2 b/c of their age related diseases? so then the PDs that are obviously older have been around for years, shouldnt be working or ranking anyone, in fact they shouldnt be working if they are your age or older, they should practice what they preach...(even though what they preached to you is completely nuts and wrong and unethical)..

 

[Danger Man]

i was very positive that i would get matched. I got 2 personal handwritten letters from the PD of my top choice. The letters were so positive that i have been convinced i was a truly great candidate for them. The letters were far from being generic. Unfortuanately, i did not match. I know many would say that a lot of PD's today are just BS, wanting only to sell their stuff. Yes, i want to believe that, but part of me is hanging on to the benefit of the doubt. A friend of mine told me i should try contacting the PD and just ask what went wrong, if there is anything i can do to maybe increase my chances to match with them in the future. Perhaps hardwork and perseverance would pay off. To BKN or PDinthe USa or anyone else, can u kindly give me your opinion about this. I am disheartened not to get matched.

I did not believe this advice until I went thru the Match myself...NEVER believe anyone who says 'you have a spot', 'you are ranked to match', 'you would be a great fit for our program', or the like until you have your letter in your hands on Match Day.

 

[Loopo Henle]

thats bul*****!! b/c of age? do they think that someone is too old to do a 3 year residency? that they are going to croak in pgy1 or 2 b/c of their age related diseases? so then the PDs that are obviously older have been around for years, shouldnt be working or ranking anyone, in fact they shouldnt be working if they are your age or older, they should practice what they preach...(even though what they preached to you is completely nuts and wrong and unethical)..

This must be pretty common. One of my interviewers made a huge deal about my age. He asked me if I thought I would be able to keep up with the younger residents, and handle 30 hour overnight calls. I told him I was 30 not 60. I still matched so they must not have held my "old" age against me too much.

 

[8744]

This must be pretty common. One of my interviewers made a huge deal about my age. He asked me if I thought I would be able to keep up with the younger residents, and handle 30 hour overnight calls. I told him I was 30 not 60. I still matched so they must not have held my "old" age against me too much.

As long as I can get a fresh pair of Depends every three or four hours I am good to go.

 

[skypilot]

This must be pretty common. One of my interviewers made a huge deal about my age. He asked me if I thought I would be able to keep up with the younger residents, and handle 30 hour overnight calls. I told him I was 30 not 60. I still matched so they must not have held my "old" age against me too much.

Wow if thirty is too old to match I will be in big trouble. Most of the students are 26 or 27 aren't they? How could 30 possibly be a problem?! 🙂

 

[lateness]

Wow if thirty is too old to match I will be in big trouble. Most of the students are 26 or 27 aren't they? How could 30 possibly be a problem?! 🙂

i am 33 and a one of the places made a little deal about it...i told try me.. put me on call if you want right now.. i said ill show you my uncle, who is 59, and a surgeon, who still works call and 30 hour days without a problem.. and if peoplelike him can do it, then why cant i even at 30 or 35 or 45 or whatever..

 

[Danger Man]

i am 33 and a one of the places made a little deal about it...i told try me.. put me on call if you want right now.. i said ill show you my uncle, who is 59, and a surgeon, who still works call and 30 hour days without a problem.. and if peoplelike him can do it, then why cant i even at 30 or 35 or 45 or whatever..

I hope that you are kidding--why not let everyone know who these turkeys are?! 👎

 

[lateness]

I hope that you are kidding--why not let everyone know who these turkeys are?! 👎

he didnt make a big deal about it, but he just kind of said oh well you are little older than the average interviewee, like under his breath, .. but he said that isnt a problem,, but he didnt say it out loud like were not going to rank you, or anything.. but now looking back, i wonder if they didnt rank me, or put me lower bc of that... 😡
it was baltimore/dc area.. but i guess it could just vary place to place..

 

[tec]

I had a department chair who was interviewing me ask me how being nine years older than my peers would impact my ability to be a resident. I had really liked this program through my first four interviews that morning (this interview was my last of the day). This and a couple of other things he said were my message that they didn't want me there, though that wasn't the message I had received at my earlier interviews at all. I ended up not ranking the place as there were plenty of other programs that I liked equally or more that either didn't have a problem with my age or had enough sense not to bring it up. Actually, most places thought my experience from my previous careeer was an asset, not a burden.

Needlesstosay, I was very surprised when I received one of those "we considered you a highly competitive applicant, please fill out this survey for us about why you didn't come here."

 

[14022]

A friend of mine received an unsolicited email from the PD at her first or second choice saying "you have been ranked among our top 8 positions." They only had 8 spaces available, so the PD was saying that she was ranked to match. Guess what, she did not match there. I think that not only is this unethical, but it should be against the NRMP rules and this program should face harsh punishment. One thing is saying something vague like "rank you highly" or "we are extremely impressed with you" or "ranked among our top applicants" or something to that effect. But actaully guaranteeing the person will match and then it not happening is completely inexcusable.