To LizzyM

[Dr.Andrews]

Hi LizzyM, I left a message in another thread for you, but I don't think you got around to it, so I thought I'd make my own thread.

I know alot of schools require a letter from someone not in the sciences. I can get two letters of reference from science professors, but for the non-science requirement, would a physician in the community be okay to fulfill that requirement? I've known a few physicians for my entire life and I think they would be able to write me a good truthful/accurate letter.

Thanks for your input on these boards, it helps alot of us out!

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[SanDiegoSOD]

I can answer this for you - the answer is no. You need a letter from a non-science prof (that taught you in a course) at several schools.

 

[rajad10]

speaking of LOR, does anyone know if its okay to have your research prof serve as one of your sciences

 

[Dr.Andrews]

speaking of LOR, does anyone know if its okay to have your research prof serve as one of your sciences

Well, from what SanDiego said, I would think the answer would also be no. He said they must have taught you in a course.

To me, that seems kind of dumb, as a physician and/or research professor would be able to comment about you as a person much more than someone who you saw for 3 hours of lecture per week....

Hopefully LizzyM can help us out with this question rajad, and we'll be able to use physicians/research advisors too

 

[Jack Swift]

what if you are in graduate school and only know SCIENCE professors?
It would be impossible for me to get non-science letters when every class I took had science professors. Now I'm worried

 

[Dr.Andrews]

what if you are in graduate school and only know SCIENCE professors?
It would be impossible for me to get non-science letters when every class I took had science professors. Now I'm worried

Yeah. That's a good point.

Alot of people whom I talk to and on here are having some difficulty/confusion understanding what reference letters are okay and which one aren't. I don't see why it would be a problem to submit three letters of reference from your PhD supervisor, and some of your grad professors instead of the "2 science 1 non-science"?

Hopefully Lizzy can help us out when she reads this

 

[DrBowtie]

Yeah. That's a good point.

Alot of people whom I talk to and on here are having some difficulty/confusion
understanding what reference letters are okay and which one aren't.

Hopefully Lizzy can help us out when she reads this

There is no universal policy. Go straight to the source and ask the schools you are applying to. Some requirements can be waived etc. in special circumstances.

 

[Orthodoc40]

Yeah. That's a good point.

Alot of people whom I talk to and on here are having some difficulty/confusion understanding what reference letters are okay and which one aren't. I don't see why it would be a problem to submit three letters of reference from your PhD supervisor, and some of your grad professors instead of the "2 science 1 non-science"?

Hopefully Lizzy can help us out when she reads this

Why not just PM LizzyM?
(Nice rhyme!)

 

[Dr.Andrews]

Why not just PM LizzyM?

That's actually a good idea lol.

Oh well, now everyone can see what she has to say

 

[Orthodoc40]

That's actually a good idea lol.

Oh well, now everyone can see what she has to say

Yah - I agree. It could be useful for others, no doubt. I just thought you might get your response much faster by the PM method... Maybe you could just PM her to say, "Hey, will you find & post an answer on my thread?"!!

 

[QofQuimica]

what if you are in graduate school and only know SCIENCE professors?
It would be impossible for me to get non-science letters when every class I took had science professors. Now I'm worried

I had this problem, since my last non-science class was taken over a decade ago. The answer is that if you are a non-trad, you can ask for an exception to be made to this requirement. I substituted an employer letter for my non-science letter, and of 22 schools where I applied, none refused to allow me to do this. For my science letters, one was written by my PI, and one by one of my committee members. Neither had ever taught me in a class, but both were familiar with my dissertation work and my general abilities as a student. I also had a fourth letter from the physician with whom I was working on the clinical trial.

Edit: If you're a trad, I don't know how easy it is to get exceptions made, but you can always try asking the schools, or submitting the physician letter as a fourth letter. Most schools require three letters, but will permit you to submit as many as six.

 

[Orthodoc40]

I had this problem, since my last non-science class was taken over a decade ago. The answer is that if you are a non-trad, you can ask for an exception to be made to this requirement. I substituted an employer letter for my non-science letter, and of 22 schools where I applied, none refused to allow me to do this. For my science letters, one was written by my PI, and one by one of my committee members. Neither had ever taught me in a class, but both were familiar with my dissertation work and my general abilities as a student. I also had a fourth letter from the physician with whom I was working on the clinical trial.

Love the avatar, Q!!! But I hope you really weren't killed by arsenic...

 

[QofQuimica]

Love the avatar, Q!!! But I hope you really weren't killed by arsenic...

He killed my crazy chemistry woman avatar. But I actually like this one better. I drew it myself.

 

[Arsenic]

Love the avatar, Q!!! But I hope you really weren't killed by arsenic...

i've never touched her, i swear!

 

[Dr.Andrews]

I had this problem, since my last non-science class was taken over a decade ago. The answer is that if you are a non-trad, you can ask for an exception to be made to this requirement. I substituted an employer letter for my non-science letter, and of 22 schools where I applied, none refused to allow me to do this. For my science letters, one was written by my PI, and one by one of my committee members. Neither had ever taught me in a class, but both were familiar with my dissertation work and my general abilities as a student. I also had a fourth letter from the physician with whom I was working on the clinical trial.

Edit: If you're a trad, I don't know how easy it is to get exceptions made, but you can always try asking the schools, or submitting the physician letter as a fourth letter. Most schools require three letters, but will permit you to submit as many as six.

Hi Q,

Do you think if I submit two letters from my science and one letter from a physician/volunteer supervisor who know me well would be okay?

 

[QofQuimica]

i've never touched her, i swear!

Quick, someone pass me the dimercaprol!!!

 

[Orthodoc40]

I had this problem, since my last non-science class was taken over a decade ago. The answer is that if you are a non-trad, you can ask for an exception to be made to this requirement. I substituted an employer letter for my non-science letter, and of 22 schools where I applied, none refused to allow me to do this. For my science letters, one was written by my PI, and one by one of my committee members. Neither had ever taught me in a class, but both were familiar with my dissertation work and my general abilities as a student. I also had a fourth letter from the physician with whom I was working on the clinical trial.

Edit: If you're a trad, I don't know how easy it is to get exceptions made, but you can always try asking the schools, or submitting the physician letter as a fourth letter. Most schools require three letters, but will permit you to submit as many as six.

Wow - I didn't even ask for exceptions. I just had my 2 science ones, plus since I'd audited a sports med class, I had that teacher write one, plus a couple of employers, and 3 physicians I shadowed and/or worked with. There was no way I was going after a professor from like, 15 years ago. If they were still alive they probably wouldn't have remembered anything about me ANYway!!!!

 

[Orthodoc40]

He killed my crazy chemistry woman avatar. But I actually like this one better. I drew it myself.

It made me laugh out loud... (Oh oh. That might not be something I want people to know!!! ) Too late!

 

[QofQuimica]

Hi Q,

Do you think if I submit two letters from my science and one letter from a physician/volunteer supervisor who know me well would be okay?

If you have a good reason for not being able to get a letter from a non-science prof, you can ask the schools to make an exception. But if you're a trad, I honestly can't think of a good reason why you shouldn't be able to come up with a non-science letter. I had to write to each individual school and ask for permission to get an exception because my Spanish prof from college had already retired, and I had no idea where to even find her. (I was a Spanish major in college along with science, and the other random profs who taught me a non-science class here or there could hardly be expected to remember me after a decade.) Like I said, the best thing to do is probably to get the physician letter, and submit it as an extra ALONG WITH the three required letters from profs. Most schools will permit you to submit up to three extra letters.

 

[Arsenic]

Quick, someone pass me the dimercaprol!!!

now you want to get rid of me! you all saw it!

 

[QofQuimica]

Wow - I didn't even ask for exceptions. I just had my 2 science ones, plus since I'd audited a sports med class, I had that teacher write one, plus a couple of employers, and 3 physicians I shadowed and/or worked with. There was no way I was going after a professor from like, 15 years ago. If they were still alive they probably wouldn't have remembered anything about me ANYway!!!!

Right, that was my problem too. I'm sure the Spanish prof would remember me, because she was my advisor, she taught me for four years, and there weren't all that many Spanish majors. Apparently she's not at the school any more though, and no one seemed to remember her. But the art teachers that I took one class with each? One is dead, one won't remember me. Ditto for the psych prof, the philosophy prof. These people aren't going to remember me after 10+ years when I took one single class with them.

 

[QofQuimica]

now you want to get rid of me! you all saw it!

You tried to kill this avatar too!!! Guys, if your avatar has a white background, watch out. Arsenic WILL strike.

 

[Dr.Andrews]

If you have a good reason for not being able to get a letter from a non-science prof, you can ask the schools to make an exception. But if you're a trad, I honestly can't think of a good reason why you shouldn't be able to come up with a non-science letter. I had to write to each individual school and ask for permission to get an exception because my Spanish prof from college had already retired, and I had no idea where to even find her. (I was a Spanish major in college along with science, and the other random profs who taught me a non-science class here or there could hardly be expected to remember me after a decade.) Like I said, the best thing to do is probably to get the physician letter, and submit it as an extra ALONG WITH the three required letters from profs. Most schools will permit you to submit up to three extra letters.

Hi Q,

The only real non-science class I took were English, Statistics and Calculus, of which the professors wouldn't be able to comment on myself as much as a physician I've known my entire life or my volunteer supervisor.

 

[QofQuimica]

Hi Q,

The only real non-science class I took were English, Statistics and Calculus, of which the professors wouldn't be able to comment on myself as much as a physician I've known my entire life or my volunteer supervisor.

That's not the point. If they don't know you well, you'll have to help them. I'd go with the English prof, assuming you did well, because math still counts as science. (That's what the "M" in BCMP stands for!) Assuming s/he's willing to write you a letter, give this person a copy of your PS, as well as a CV describing your activities and a copy of your transcript and MCAT scores. That will help them write you a good letter.

 

[Orthodoc40]

Right, that was my problem too. I'm sure the Spanish prof would remember me, because she was my advisor, she taught me for four years, and there weren't all that many Spanish majors. Apparently she's not at the school any more though, and no one seemed to remember her. But the art teachers that I took one class with each? One is dead, one won't remember me. Ditto for the psych prof, the philosophy prof. These people aren't going to remember me after 10+ years when I took one single class with them.

Yah - geez - maybe I should have asked schools for an exception, too, instead of just sending them along all sure they'd be fine...!!
Actually the music history professor I might have asked was recently found dead in the Charles River and no one knows how he got there... very strange... and very sad. Hey, has Arsenic been in Boston recently?....

 

[QofQuimica]

Yah - geez - maybe I should have asked schools for an exception, too, instead of just sending them along all sure they'd be fine...!!
Actually the music history professor I might have asked was recently found dead in the Charles River and no one knows how he got there... very strange... and very sad. Hey, has Arsenic been in Boston recently?....

No, he's busy cramming for Step 1 whenever he's not busy assaulting my avatars.

 

[Dr.Andrews]

That's not the point. If they don't know you well, you'll have to help them. I'd go with the English prof, assuming you did well, because math still counts as science. (That's what the "M" in BCMP stands for!) Assuming s/he's willing to write you a letter, give this person a copy of your PS, as well as a CV describing your activities and a copy of your transcript and MCAT scores. That will help them write you a good letter.

I'm pretty sure math courses are not science courses, just because they are listed under BCPM in terms of GPA calculation. Math is math, science is science I would think lol.

Nevertheless, I think I'm going to send two letters from science prof's and one from the physician/volunteer supervisor. I just wanted to get Lizzy's input on this because I read she's on an adcom.

 

[Orthodoc40]

No, he's busy cramming for Step 1 whenever he's not busy assaulting my avatars.

Yah, I figured he stuck to only Avatar assaults... and even then, maybe only yours! Still, the dimercaprol might be just a wee bit too - umm - well, it might sort of make him feel a little defensive, shall we say...

 

[Orthodoc40]

I'm pretty sure math courses are not science courses, just because they are listed under BCPM in terms of GPA calculation. Math is math, science is science I would think lol.

Nevertheless, I think I'm going to send two letters from science prof's and one from the physician/volunteer supervisor. I just wanted to get Lizzy's input on this because I read she's on an adcom.

You could also just take some class this summer you know you'll do REALLY super well in and get a letter that way...

 

[Dr.Andrews]

You could also just take some class this summer you know you'll do REALLY super well in and get a letter that way...

I'm writing the MCAT this summer

If worse comes to worse, I could get my statistics professor to write me one and fulfill the non-science requirement, but I would think the schools would be okay with a letter from a physician/volunteer coordinator? ....

 

[QofQuimica]

I'm pretty sure math courses are not science courses, just because they are listed under BCPM in terms of GPA calculation. Math is math, science is science I would think lol.

Nevertheless, I think I'm going to send two letters from science prof's and one from the physician/volunteer supervisor. I just wanted to get Lizzy's input on this because I read she's on an adcom.

Well, if you already plan to do what you want anyway, then by all means, feel free to ignore me. No hard feelings, and best of luck to you.

Ortho, I need a dimercaprol amulet that I can wear around my neck at all times.

 

[Dr.Andrews]

Well, if you already plan to do what you want anyway, then by all means, feel free to ignore me. No hard feelings, and best of luck to you.

Ortho, I need a dimercaprol amulet that I can wear around my neck at all times.

I wasn't ignoring you, I just didn't agree with you when you said math is considered a science course.

That's why I'm hoping that Lizzy can come in and say if a letter from a physician/volunteer coordinator can fulfuill the "non-science" requirement some schools have, because they would be able to write a much more truthful letter than someone who knew you for 3 months imo.

 

[Dr.Andrews]

Shameless bump for Lizzy

 

[DF38]

I've got another interesting LOR dilemma. I've got a letter from one definite science professor (from orgo/biochem), then I've got two other letters from professors and I'm not sure what they would count as:

1) my major advisor (kinesiology) who I also took anatomy and biomechanics with

and

2) my intro to medical practice professor (kines department), but he is a MD so I'm not sure if that changes anything

Anyone have any ideas? Think that's good enough?

 

[Dr.Andrews]

I've got another interesting LOR dilemma. I've got a letter from one definite science professor (from orgo/biochem), then I've got two other letters from professors and I'm not sure what they would count as:

1) my major advisor (kinesiology) who I also took anatomy and biomechanics with

and

2) my intro to medical practice professor (kines department), but he is a MD so I'm not sure if that changes anything

Anyone have any ideas? Think that's good enough?

I'm kind of in the same dillema, as I have two letters of reference from two science professors, and I'd like to get the third from my volunteering coordinator or a physician I've known my whole life. I'm not sure what categories physicians fall under, and this "non-science" requirement is confusing the hell out of me

Perhaps LizzyM can help us both you when she reads this thread

 

[Gabby]

I wasn't ignoring you, I just didn't agree with you when you said math is considered a science course.

That's why I'm hoping that Lizzy can come in and say if a letter from a physician/volunteer coordinator can fulfuill the "non-science" requirement some schools have, because they would be able to write a much more truthful letter than someone who knew you for 3 months imo.

I've read this whole thread and it seems to me a few people who have been through the process have basically said you shouldn't use the letter from a physician/volunteer coordinator in place of your non-science professor. They have told you to include it as an extra. If you don't believe them, then you should probably PM Lizzy.

I'm still a couple of years away from applying to medical school, but as a nontraditional, I've asked several people this same question and I've always gotten the same response. I've called two med schools and both have told me that the only way around the non-science professor is if you ask for an exception (and there's no guarantee you'll get it). It's only available for nontraditionals or someone with extenuating circumstances, so I'm guessing the "the physician who's known me my whole life will write a better letter" wouldn't be considered an extenuating circumstance.

What's the problem with meeting the requirement (by getting one non-science letter) and still including the physician letter as an extra? IMO, it'll send a red flag if you try to circumvent the process for no good reason and with med school admissions being as competitive as they are, I have no idea why anyone would want to do that.

 

[Orthodoc40]

I've called two med schools and both have told me that the only way around the non-science professor is if you ask for an exception (and there's no guarantee you'll get it). It's only available for nontraditionals.

Oh great now I'm totally worried. We're supposed to call all the schools and get an exception first? C'mon - I can't believe they aren't going to give someone who is out of undergrad by 10+ years an exception - that's just insane!
I'm not quite sure what the OP can do about it, though....

 

[Gabby]

Oh great now I'm totally worried. We're supposed to call all the schools and get an exception first? C'mon - I can't believe they aren't going to give someone who is out of undergrad by 10+ years an exception - that's just insane!
I'm not quite sure what the OP can do about it, though....

I didn't think the OP was a nontraditional.

I don't know what the rule is for all med schools. I can just tell you about the two I called. I'm sure some med schools will see that you've been out 10 years and be more lenient than others. However, as someone else pointed out, why not just take a non-science course you enjoy over the summer and get a letter that way? Take Stats if you haven't already. Take Spanish since it'll probably help you when dealing with patients in certain parts of the country. Take another English class, which always looks good. Just something that you're sure you can do well in and will serve some purpose when adcoms see your transcript.

Also, they didn't say you have to apply for an exemption (though that may be the case for some schools). They just said ask for an "exception." One said that all you had to do was call and explain the situation instead of submitting a formal letter. That's my experience for what it's worth.

 

[Orthodoc40]

I didn't think the OP was a nontraditional.

I don't know what the rule is for all med schools. I can just tell you about the two I called. I'm sure some med schools will see that you've been out 10 years and be more lenient than others. However, as someone else pointed out, why not just take a non-science course you enjoy over the summer and get a letter that way? Take Stats if you haven't already. Take Spanish since it'll probably help you when dealing with patients in certain parts of the country. Take another English class, which always looks good. Just something that you're sure you can do well in and will serve some purpose when adcoms see your transcript.

Also, they didn't say you have to apply for an exemption (though that may be the case for some schools). They just said ask for an "exception." One said that all you had to do was call and explain the situation instead of submitting a formal letter. That's my experience for what it's worth.

Yeah, I think my letter from the sports med class professor counts as non science, but I'll be taking statistics this summer and could get it then if needed. But since I never officially checked with any school, it gives me something else to worry about. Which is good. If I am not worried about something, something is wrong!!

 

[Dr.Andrews]

I didn't think the OP was a nontraditional.

I don't know what the rule is for all med schools. I can just tell you about the two I called. I'm sure some med schools will see that you've been out 10 years and be more lenient than others. However, as someone else pointed out, why not just take a non-science course you enjoy over the summer and get a letter that way? Take Stats if you haven't already. Take Spanish since it'll probably help you when dealing with patients in certain parts of the country. Take another English class, which always looks good. Just something that you're sure you can do well in and will serve some purpose when adcoms see your transcript.

Also, they didn't say you have to apply for an exemption (though that may be the case for some schools). They just said ask for an "exception." One said that all you had to do was call and explain the situation instead of submitting a formal letter. That's my experience for what it's worth.

Hi Gabby.

I took a Statistics course where there was absolutely no math in it whatsoever. We basically talked about how statistics are used to trick people into believing falsehoods, talked about the environment, population, resource scarcity, basically how we can use statistics to make good decisions about all aspects in life including personal decisions.

Do you think this would be okay in fulfilling the non-stats requirement? I actually have a good raport with this professor too, but someone said up above stats = science, but in the case of the course description above, I wouldn't agree with that.

What's your opinion?

 

[Gabby]

Hi Gabby.

I took a Statistics course where there was absolutely no math in it whatsoever. We basically talked about how statistics are used to trick people into believing falsehoods, talked about the environment, population, resource scarcity, basically how we can use statistics to make good decisions about all aspects in life including personal decisions.

Do you think this would be okay in fulfilling the non-stats requirement? I actually have a good raport with this professor too, but someone said up above stats = science, but in the case of the course description above, I wouldn't agree with that.

What's your opinion?

There was no math in your stats class? Is it listed as a psychology or sociology-based statistics? I honestly think a letter from your statistics professor will be fine if that's the case. If it was a math class, I'm not positive. I assumed math qualified as non-science, but I can't say for sure. Do you have a pre-med advisor?

 

[LizzyM]

I had this problem, since my last non-science class was taken over a decade ago. The answer is that if you are a non-trad, you can ask for an exception to be made to this requirement. I substituted an employer letter for my non-science letter, and of 22 schools where I applied, none refused to allow me to do this. For my science letters, one was written by my PI, and one by one of my committee members. Neither had ever taught me in a class, but both were familiar with my dissertation work and my general abilities as a student. I also had a fourth letter from the physician with whom I was working on the clinical trial.

Edit: If you're a trad, I don't know how easy it is to get exceptions made, but you can always try asking the schools, or submitting the physician letter as a fourth letter. Most schools require three letters, but will permit you to submit as many as six.

I couldn't make it all the way through this thread but Q of Quimica has it right. Just ask the schools who require a non-science letter if a letter from your employer or a volunteer activity supervisor can substitute.

For my money, a LOR from a faculty member with whom you have done research can substitute for a LOR from a science instructor. In fact, I wonder when I don't see a LOR from someone with whom you spent 9 mos. or more in the lab.

 

[LizzyM]

I'm guessing the "the physician who's known me my whole life will write a better letter" wouldn't be considered an extenuating circumstance.

These letters from people who have known you your whole life (physician-neighbor, classmate's parent, personal physician) are usually pretty worthless because the relationship (friendship) is such that the general feeling is that the letter will not be unbiased. If there is no chance in h*ll that a recommender would write anything negative (because they are too fond of you to derail your plans -- not because you are perfect) then the LOR is not very informative.

My favorite of all time was a letter from the applicant's girlfriend's father (an MD). The doc actually wrote that the applicant was a nice young man and that hr hoped that some day the applicant would be his son-in-law. How can that be an unbiased letter?

 

[Jack Swift]

Ok I've been thinking of a way to get around this non-science letter issue. I'm getting a letter from a Ph.D who I orginally considered to be a science letter because she taught a few lectures in my classes but her real capacity was an advisor to us graduate students. She doesnt do research but rather counsels the students in the department, she did this for me extensively. Since this letter is more from an advisor as opposed to my other letters from full fledged professor/researchers, can I use this for my non-science letter?

 

[ADeadLois]

I couldn't make it all the way through this thread but Q of Quimica has it right. Just ask the schools who require a non-science letter if a letter from your employer or a volunteer activity supervisor can substitute.

For my money, a LOR from a faculty member with whom you have done research can substitute for a LOR from a science instructor. In fact, I wonder when I don't see a LOR from someone with whom you spent 9 mos. or more in the lab.

Thanks Lizzy, the latter half to your response makes me feel a little better. I don't understand why an adcom would rather have a LOR from a prof you took a class with but didn't get to know very well instead of from one who you worked closely with for over a year doing research (in my case).

 

[LizzyM]

Ok I've been thinking of a way to get around this non-science letter issue. I'm getting a letter from a Ph.D who I orginally considered to be a science letter because she taught a few lectures in my classes but her real capacity was an advisor to us graduate students. She doesnt do research but rather counsels the students in the department, she did this for me extensively. Since this letter is more from an advisor as opposed to my other letters from full fledged professor/researchers, can I use this for my non-science letter?

You should check with the school to see if some substitute for the non-science LOR is OK. Some schools, particularly those with quite a bit of PBL, may be looking for some measure of your ability to participate in discussion and to synthesize non-scientific material into a written paper. For those reasons, an instructor in bioethics/philosophy/theology, sociology, economics, history, art history, etc might be ideal.