To LOI, or not to LOI, that is the question.

[TheBrownReaper]

Hi everyone,

I know LOI's are a contentious issue, but I wanted to get some input on my situation. I had the privilege of interviewing with the Mayo Clinic this cycle, and I am really interested in the school, but they recently sent an email to applicants asking them to send Letters of Intent (or at least letters of interest) to indicate how likely they are to attend the school as they prefer applicants who are committed to attend. From what I have been reading around these forums, it seems like sending a letter of intent is a soft requirement for getting into the school, and I haven't heard of anyone getting in without one thus far, including student representatives I have contacted from the school—unless someone could correct me on this. So I have a few questions:

1) Should I send a letter of intent? I have a few other schools that I have interviewed at and am interested in, including some closer to home, as well as a number of schools I have not heard back from (~22). I am very interested in attending Mayo, but I would like the opportunity to weigh financial options to see what the best overall package would be. Hence the conundrum. Also is this cycle still going on or getting wrapped up? Some friends mentioned that adcoms are behind, and that I applied late, but not sure how many interviews I would get at this point.

2) Is it really binding? I know that for a number of schools it is seen as a desperate attempt to get in and not taken as a serious commitment, but since Mayo includes it as a part of their process, I am not certain what the deal with them is. It says in one of their correspondence documents that: "A letter of intent means that Mayo Clinic Alix School of Medicine is your number one choice of medical school and if accepted, you plan to matriculate." But is this binding at all. If I don't say I will withdraw from other schools in my letter, but say they are my top choice, is there any room to back out—since they are my top choice at the moment, but if accepted or invited to interview at another school that may change. @gyngyn @gonnif @LizzyM @Goro —any thoughts?

3) Is it ethical? I am trying to look at this from both perspectives. I have talked to a number of physicians and medical students who have advised me to send it since they asked for it and that it would not be binding as it is not a contractual agreement. Furthermore they said that I have to look out for my own interests in the end, especially in a process where medical schools have all of the power. Since medical schools are going to get a student who is interested no matter what, but if I don't send a letter, I may not get into any school this cycle, the balance of power does seem heavily tilted, and thus not a fair 'trade' per se. It is also true that this is my degree of interest/intent now, as opposed to when they actually accept me.

On the other hand, I am typically an ethical person, and I would never think of sending an LOI on a normal occasion unless it was late in a cycle and I knew for certain that I wanted to attend that school for sure. But in this case, since they are practically requiring it, I am not sure what to say.

Any advice on this issue would be much appreciated. Thanks.

TL;DR Mayo is asking students for letters of intent, would it be bad if I didn't honor it later on?

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[gyngyn]

They deserve what they get.

 

[Goro]

Yes, send the LOI. They told you to.

 

[Med Ed]

1. Should you send a LOI? Yes.
2. Is it binding? No. How the hell could it be?
3. Is it ethical? Don't hate the player.

 

[jbess]

You definitely want to send it if you were asked to and you're interested. I don't think there's anything unethical about sending the letter then deciding not to go.

 

[Med Ed]

Completely trivial but on item 2 theoretically, Technically it is a contract and could be enforced. That is you are making an offer and they can accept the offer.

I suppose you could say the same for every applicant with multiple acceptances.

 

[KnightDoc]

I suppose you could say the same for every applicant with multiple acceptances.

Not really, because when you apply to each school you do not say that you will attend if accepted. Yet that's exactly what you are saying when you send a Letter of Intent.

Again, there really is no enforcement mechanism until CTE goes live in the CYMS tool on 5/2, but there's the whole "professionalism" thing that schools like to throw around when it suits them, as they abuse their market power in this process.

Personally, I 1,000,000% agree that schools like Mayo reap what they sow by pressuring people to do this. OTOH, I'd be too afraid to outright lie with a Letter of Intent that was only valid until something better came along, worrying that breaking a non-binding commitment would come back to bite me later on. I'd stick to a strong letter of interest, and let the chips fall where they may.

YMMV, but I'm not interested in selling my soul by making promises that are only valid until I receive a better offer. And, for the record, this is coming from someone who is now sitting on several WLs with zero As, and a few IIs left to go. So, if nothing else, I am putting my money where my mouth is! 🙂

 

[Med Ed]

Not really, because when you apply to each school you do not say that you will attend if accepted. Yet that's exactly what you are saying when you send a Letter of Intent.

I don't know. When we offer a seat, the accepted applicant has to go into the system and accept the seat. I'm sure someone could find a lawyer pedantic enough to argue the arrangement is technically contractual, even though in practical terms it is obviously not.

 

[KnightDoc]

I don't know. When we offer a seat, the accepted applicant has to go into the system and accept the seat. I'm sure someone could find a lawyer pedantic enough to argue the arrangement is technically contractual, even though in practical terms it is obviously not.

Are you MD or DO? For MD schools, it is very clear that "accepting" the seat is a non-binding indication of continued interest rather than a binding commitment.

OTOH, DO schools do treat accepting the seat as a technical commitment. That is how they get away with keeping large deposits. It is their prearranged fee for releasing students from the commitment. Otherwise, their keeping a tuition deposit when the applicant made no commitment to enroll would be illegal! 🙂

If this were not the case, there would be no need for the AMCAS CYMS tool, since applicants would be locked into a seat as soon as they accepted it. For AMCAS schools, there is no technical contractual commitment prior to selecting CTE using the CYMS tool.

A Letter of Intent is something else entirely, and is outside that system, but the seat MD schools offer upon acceptance is non-binding, as evidenced by the fact that deposits are fully refundable at all MD schools through 4/30, to the extent they are required at all.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Does mayo have a hard time convincing top applicants to attend or something? I’ve never heard of other top schools doing this.

 

[KnightDoc]

Does mayo have a hard time convincing top applicants to attend or something? I’ve never heard of other top schools doing this.

Yeah, well, Rochester MN vs. Boston, NY, LA, SF, Palo Alto, Phiily, etc. What do you think? Yeah, Mayo has a hard time believing people from out of the area reaaallly want to spend 4 years in an icebox when they have comparable alternatives in arguably more attractive locations. They need some convincing.

Peer schools like WashU, Chicago, etc. just live with the lower yield. Mayo takes a different approach.

 

[KnightDoc]

Mayo also has a very small class size and really is concerned that the over composition of the class works well with truly eager students. Some years ago, the admissions director said at some meeting as the top health center in the world, they expect all their students to be gunners. Ironically several of the students I have spoken to there seem more relaxed than in other schools. It could be with the very high faculty/staff ratio people feel very supported. They seem to have a very "Mayo family" culture. I would imagine the Mayo name, the recommendations, and the networking is a huge boost at residency.

But put on your long johns and stay warm.

With all due respect, the admissions director was full of it.

For whatever reason, they are doing it to manage yield. They could, as an alternative, not require demeaning expressions of obsequiousness, not cause people to stress about whether or not to compromise their integrity to score a well deserved A, and just let nature take its course by accepting a natural yield.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that there would be any difference in the enthusiasm level of those actually matriculating in either case. People who LOOOVVEEE Mayo will choose it over other schools. Those who don't, won't.

You don't need to torture attractive candidates at a T10 (11) school for, in the words of your esteemed colleague, "nonbinding contracts from desperate candidates" in order to create a class of truly eager students. Students all over the country, at all tiers of school, of all different sizes, successfully find their place and form cohesive student bodies each and every year without being subjected to this.

Is there any serious argument that its peers that don't do this, with similar class sizes, have problems with the composition or enthusiasm level of their classes?

 

[TheBrownReaper]

With all due respect, the admissions director was full of it.

For whatever reason, they are doing it to manage yield. They could, as an alternative, not require demeaning expressions of obsequiousness, not cause people to stress about whether or not to compromise their integrity to score a well deserved A, and just let nature take its course by accepting a natural yield.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that there would be any difference in the enthusiasm level of those actually matriculating in either case. People who LOOOVVEEE Mayo will choose it over other schools. Those who don't, won't.

You don't need to torture attractive candidates at a T10 (11) school for, in the words of your esteemed colleague, "nonbinding contracts from a desperate candidates" in order to create a class of truly eager students. Students all over the country, at all tiers of school, of all different sizes, successfully find their place and form cohesive student bodies each and every year without being subjected to this.

Is there any serious argument that its peers that don't do this, with similar class sizes, have problems with the composition or enthusiasm level of their classes?

Agreed, they are a T10 connected to #1 hospital, I think 'obsequious' was the right word

 

[GoSpursGo]

TLDR: Clearly sending a letter will make you feel better, so just send it so you can sleep at night.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

I sent one and I got in and didn’t go there. So who cares….

 

[KnightDoc]

The attitude And culture of Mayo as a medical school Is very Different than many other medical schools. They do not consider themselves being a T10 medical school attached to a hospital. They are integral to the hospital. They also don’t view themselves Like universities that have medical schools. They are hospital that trains doctors. Thinking about their the ad com views medical student selection Much more like residency than other medical schools. In that manner they want to make sure they have a class to work well together. It’s a very different place

In that case, maybe they should raise a mega endowment and take their view to the next level, and not only stop charging tuition, like NYU, but start paying a stipend to their trainees, like a true residency, or the military, since they are so very, very different from every other medical school in the country! 😎

However they view themselves, at the end of the day they are a MD school, just like every other accredited MD school in the country. Not a cult, and not a hospital that trains doctors. EVERY school recruits for a class that will work well together. Nothing special there. Nothing at all. It's just yield manipulation, which is why their yield looks more Harvard's, Penn's or NYU's than WashU's or Chicago's.

It's just obnoxious to make people jump through this hoop, which then invites people like you to speculate about the nuances of enforcing unenforceable contracts, and puts pressure on students with no leverage to compromise their integrity by making insincere promises they might not want to keep in the future in order to receive an acceptance they have earned through hard work over a number of years.