to put or not to put

[peehdee]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Hey guys,

If you have a PhD or an MPH or other advanced degree, do you think that a medical student should put that on his/her white coat? I know some medical 'doctors' have something against the other docs in that they think that other doctorates are not as highly regarded as the MD. Thus if you put say, "Mike Smith, PhD" on your white coat, that they might not like you or treat you differently (in a bad way). What are your thoughts? Doesn't a person who has spent many years earning a terminal degree have the honor to put say, "DVM" after their name and not appear arrogant? I am sure that as medical students or even residents the older teachers probably think most students are young and niave. But having an advanced degree shows a certain level of age and thus life experience that is not always present in a person who came out of college or even took 1 year of.
Therefore, should a person with an advanced degree put that on their white coat to distinguish themselves or is that being 'arrogant'?

🙂

 

[Caribou]

I don't think it's being arrogant. I think having done that extra work earns you the right to put that after your name.

 

[BDavis]

Hey guys,

If you have a PhD or an MPH or other advanced degree, do you think that a medical student should put that on his/her white coat? 🙂

I have seen MSTP students on clinical rotations (returning after their Ph.D.) put the Ph.D. on their white coat (the short ones) and introduce themselves as doctors. My upper level internal medicine and OB/GYN residents didn't seem to care (at least on the surface). I rarely saw some of the attendings at the public hospitals so I don't know what they thought (I doubt they even knew our names).

For me, I will be happy if I still even fit in my white coat and I really don't intend on paying to get the Ph.D. stitched in. I would rather wait until I get long white coat before getting serious with the degrees.

 

[Habari]

if you need that sort of outside affirmation ... talk about wearing your c.v. on your sleeve ...

 

[TicDouloureux]

Hi, first post here. 🙂

Anyway no, I don't think that stuff belongs on a medical student's coat, and MSTP student shouldn't be calling themselves "doctor" on the wards. Not because a non-MD degree is "lesser" or whatever, but because it is potentially confusing to patients. When a patient sees someone in a white coat referred to as "doctor", he/she automatically makes certain assumptions about this person's level of clinical training and competency. So I think it's misleading to call someone with a PhD in Molecular Cell Biology "doctor" in a clinical setting. Right now I'm on my third-year rotations, and attendings sometimes introduce me as "doctor" which makes me uncomfortable. On a related note, I hate the term "student doctor" too - all it does is confuse patients. I think medical students should be referred to simply as medical students. After residency, I think it's appropriate to put MD, PhD (or whatever degree) on the coats, because then the title doesn't lead patients to mistakenly assume you're an experienced clinician.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

very well stated Tic...i was gonna reply but i couldn't have said it better 🙂

 

[ears]

I agree with the above point about how making yourself a "doctor" in the clinical setting before getting your M.D. is borderline unethical because of patient confusion.

More immediately for returning MD/PhD students... if you insist on being thought of as a PhD, you should expect a response. This might vary from good-natured ribbing to silent hostility, but it'll make it harder to fit in. And believe me, on the wards, fitting in is a big deal.

On a more general note... This is just my personal bias (though I've found it's shared by many others whom I respect). People who insist on being called "doctor" everywhere they go (as in, "It's Dr. Evil, I didn't spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called 'mister,' thank you very much") or make a big deal of having their extra degrees bandied about seem kind of small and insecure.

My advice: don't do it. In fact, at my medical school, a student who had anything stitched on his/her white coat would be looked on as kind of silly.

 

[pathdr2b]

Hey guys,
If you have a PhD or an MPH or other advanced degree, do you think that a medical student should put that on his/her white coat? I know some medical 'doctors' have something against the other docs in that they think that other doctorates are not as highly regarded as the MD.

I personally think people should do whatever they want when it comes to advanced degrees THEY EARNED. I have a white lab coat with my advanced degree initials (MS) from when I worked in industry, but it's my personal choice not to wear it now.

On another note, I address everyone one of my friends/associates that are MD/PhD students AND have completed their PhD's in fields like Epidemiology and Pharmacology as "Dr." in professional settings, like on the wards. It's about respecting a person's achievements more than boasting in my opinion. To wait until a person completes the MD portion of an MD/PhD program is to silently agree that the only degree worth acknowledging as "Dr." is the MD.

 

[kels]

I personally think people should do whatever they want when it comes to advanced degrees THEY EARNED. I have a white lab coat with my advanced degree initials (MS) from when I worked in industry, but it's my personal choice not to wear it now.

On another note, I address everyone one of my friends/associates that are MD/PhD students AND have completed their PhD's in fields like Epidemiology and Pharmacology as "Dr." in professional settings, like on the wards. It's about respecting a person's achievements more than boasting in my opinion. To wait until a person completes the MD portion of an MD/PhD program is to silently agree that the only degree worth acknowledging as "Dr." is the MD.

Except that most programs (I think) confer the MD and PhD degrees once you have finished the entire program..... so you won't be a "Dr." until you have finished the entire MD-PhD program.

 

[pathdr2b]

For a PhD (in history or 18th century political thought as much as molecular biology or epidemiology) to call him/herself a "doctor" when carrying out clinical work it is a misrepresentation and should be subject to severe censure. The role that person is playing is of student.

As intelligent as most of the people who post on this thread, I still don't quite understand the use of stating the obvious. I seriously doubt a med student with a PhD in Basket Weaving would expect to be called "doctor" on the wards.

However, it's clear to me that most folks feel that the only people who "deserve" to be called "doctor" in clinical settings are MD's only. FYI, I know a few PhD's with clinical duites, ie they see patients ( alongside Physicians) but I guess no one here thinks they should be called doctor either. No wonder people (especially PhD's)find physicians so arrogant.

 

[pathdr2b]

For a PhD (in history or 18th century political thought as much as molecular biology or epidemiology) to call him/herself a "doctor" when carrying out clinical work it is a misrepresentation and should be subject to severe censure. The role that person is playing is of student.

As intelligent as most of the people who post on this thread, I still don't quite understand the use of stating the obvious. I seriously doubt a med student with a PhD in Basket Weaving would expect to be called "doctor" on the wards. However, if I met them at an Arts and Crafts show, out of RESPECT I would address them as "doctor".

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Historically, it wasn't the MD's who were first referred to as doctors 🙂

Anyways, I would feel silly wearing my short white coat and referring to myself as a "doctor". I'll be your little, trustworthy, subservient med student during the [only] two clinical years [thank god].

Then when I get that MD alongside my PhD, I'm gonna come and getcha!

 

[ears]

However, it's clear to me that most folks feel that the only people who "deserve" to be called "doctor" in clinical settings are MD's only. FYI, I know a few PhD's with clinical duites, ie they see patients ( alongside Physicians) but I guess no one here thinks they should be called doctor either. No wonder people (especially PhD's)find physicians so arrogant.

I'm not saying they don't deserve to be called "doctor", because anyone who has a Ph.D. certainly deserves to be addressed as "doctor". (If your Ph.D. was as difficult as mine, I might call you "Doctor, can I buy you a beer?" 😀)

What I am saying is that addressing non-physician members of the health care team by "doctor"---particularly when what they are is medical students, physicians in training---can lead to confusion for patients. (Others can also become confused, but it's the patients who matter.)

It's not that big a deal to not be called "doctor" for a couple of years while you get you finish your M.D.

 

[BDavis]

Then when I get that MD alongside my PhD, I'm gonna come and getcha!

Thanks to that ridiculous episode on ER where the MD/PhD student leaves his clinical duties to run his gel, a patient asked me if I am running a gel after I finished seeing them (this patient also gave me a tip to never get sick during the months of July/August and go to an academic hospital ). Maybe it is better if we just leave the Ph.D. off the white coat altogether. I'll buy two white coats, one with my name and a M.D. that is nicely pressed and clean for my internship another with Ponceau S and EtBr stains on it with a Ph.D. for my postdoc. At this point of my training I am just trying to get the long white coat first.

 

[pathdr2b]

Anyways, I would feel silly wearing my short white coat and referring to myself as a "doctor". I'll be your little, trustworthy, subservient med student during the [only] two clinical years [thank god].

I'd like to know whose idea it was that med students wear short coats. A close friend of mine is a PharmD student so I'm accustomed to seeing those in the Pharmacy field wear the short coats.

Looks like it's just another way for MD's to assert that their smarter than everyone else while trying to look different and be the only real "doctors" in the planet. 🙄 No wonder most people find physicians amazingly arrogant!

 

[pathdr2b]

Maybe it is better if we just leave the Ph.D. off the white coat altogether. I'll buy two white coats.

I heard a nasty little rumor that residents with only the MD, HATE to see residents wear coats with MD/PhD on it.
😕

 

[pathdr2b]

At this point of my training I am just trying to get the long white coat first.

A few PhD's I know wear long white coats too (esoecialy thise that see patients). Maybe they should wear coats in between the length of the short white one the the "MD" only long coat!

 

[BDavis]

A few PhD's I know wear long white coats too (esoecialy thise that see patients). Maybe they should wear coats in between the length of the short white one the the "MD" only long coat!

I already have to buy another short white coat because I don't fit into the one I bought before I entered graduate school. I think I'll wait until I get the M.D. before I buy a long white coat (especially considering that I may get larger during my last year of clinics-those Krispy Kreme donuts in morning rounds are really good 🙂

 

[peehdee]

thanks guys for the posts,

so what i'm hearing is this:

the 'MD' degree is the only one worth noting in the hospital. forget if you're a pharmD, DDS or PhD in clinical psychology. the patients might get confused if we call them 'doctor'. and would this be true if an 'MD' went to get a pharmD or PhD or DDS for example, right?. we shouldn't address the MD graduate as 'doctor' yet right? otherwise it would be a double standard. bc that person is a 'student' even thought he/she has already gotten an 'MD'?

to avoid getting things confused, maybe we should call non 'MD's something else. why call them 'doctors'. maybe 'master' would be better :-D doesn't 'doctor' actually mean a 'teacher', while 'physician' means a 'healer'? (nb)

 

[TicDouloureux]

However, it's clear to me that most folks feel that the only people who "deserve" to be called "doctor" in clinical settings are MD's only. FYI, I know a few PhD's with clinical duites, ie they see patients ( alongside Physicians) but I guess no one here thinks they should be called doctor either. No wonder people (especially PhD's)find physicians so arrogant.

No, that's not the point I was trying to make at all. If someone with a PhD in say Clinical Psychology is seeing a patient - as their psychologist - then yeah, they should call themselves "doctor." The patient understands that this person has completed the necessary training to practice clinical psychology, and the use of the title reflects that.

But if that same person with a PhD in Clinical Psychology decided to go to med school, and introduces himself as doctor to patients on his third-year surgery rotation, then that is WRONG. In that setting, the PhD is no more qualified to practice surgical medicine than any other medical student, and he shouldn't be misleading patients into thinking so by using the title "doctor."

Now, if this hypothetical clinical psychologist is moonlighting and sees own patients from his old practice on the weekends or something, he can put on his long coat and call himself doctor all he wants in that setting. But if one of his patients from his med school rotations walks in, he's got a little bit of explaining to do 😉

 

[Gfunk6]

Having just completed my PhD (have the degree on paper) and re-entered the clinic let me offer you a few suggestions based on your questions.

thanks guys for the posts,
so what i'm hearing is this:
the 'MD' degree is the only one worth noting in the hospital. forget if you're a pharmD, DDS or PhD in clinical psychology. the patients might get confused if we call them 'doctor'. and would this be true if an 'MD' went to get a pharmD or PhD or DDS for example, right?.

Quite wrong.
People with a PharmD, DDS or PhD (PsyD) are referred to as "doctor" in the hospital and rightly so. However, they are referred to as doctor in the appropriate context. In the case of PhDs in Psychology and PsyDs, they are referred to as doctors in Psychiatry wards during family meetings as such. DDS/DMDs are self-explanatory -- it should be obvious that you are seeing one. PharmDs are a little bit more tricky, but I digress.

As an MSTP student YOU should not want to be referred to as "doctor" for several reasons:

1) People will assume that you are an MD. This is only logical since you are rounding with other physicians, are wearing a white coat, and perform routine H&Ps. This is highly misleading.

2) A PhD earns you the right to be called "doctor" but in the appropriate setting. In the specific case of biological science PhDs, they are referred as "doctor" by all med students, residents, attendings, etc., even on the wards. But they are not performing the routine activities of a med student, meaning that they will not likely be mistaken for physicians.

3) It shows a certain degree of immaturity on the part of the MSTP student who demands on wearing a PhD on his coat. Of course you earned it, but you should be aware that many attendings (right or wrong) will feel that you are misrepresenting your credentials and this can have ill-effects on your future. Second, you should want to blend in with your fellow classmates, be accepted as their peer, and perform according to the same standards that they are held to.

In short, although you are free to wear your PhD proudly prior to your graduation from med school, doing so has a far greater chance of hurting you than helping you. If you feel that this is an acceptable cost for the "prestige" of wearing a PhD, then go for it.

 

[pathdr2b]

But if that same person with a PhD in Clinical Psychology decided to go to med school, and introduces himself as doctor to patients on his third-year surgery rotation, then that is WRONG. In that setting, the PhD is no more qualified to practice surgical medicine than any other medical student, and he shouldn't be misleading patients into thinking so by using the title "doctor."

It's ridiculous to assume "patients will get confued" when someone other than an MD gets called "doctor". What exactly is it that they will be so confused about?A sick person wants to get better so I don't really think they care who gets called what in the hospital. If the patient asks a question during rounds, do you believe that the medical student with the PhD in Biomedical Engineering will step up and answer the question? I don't think so. What will happen if the patient asks the person with the PhD a question, is the MD/DO will step up and answer the question. Very simple, right so where's the confusion?

No, this is plain and simple an issue where MD's don't want to see other people addresed as "Doctor" in a clinical setting.

 

[Gfunk6]

No, this is plain and simple an issue where MD's don't want to see other people addresed as "Doctor" in a clinical setting.

Spend some time in a hospital setting and you will see that his is simply untrue. PhDs (in various fields ranging from Physics to Psychology to Biological Science) are always referred to as "Doctor" both by patients and medical personnel. This same courtesy extends to other health care professionals like ODs, DMD/DDSs, and PharmDs.

 

[pathdr2b]

Please allow me to give you guys an example of not creating "patient confusion". Jane Doe a 3rd year med student with a PhD in Biochemistry is on rounds with the attending in geenral surgery.

"Hi Mr.X. My name is Dr. Jane Doe and I'm a 3rd year med student. Dr.Y is the attending who will be directly responsibe for your care so if you have any questions, please address her". This takes exactly 8 seconds to say.

OR

"Hi Mr.X. My name is Dr. Jane Doe and I'm a 3rd year med student.

Now people lets be real here. If Patient X is in the terminal stages of caner, do you REALLY believe he's going to say to Dr.Doe, "if you're a 3rd year med student, why are you being called a "doctor"?. And if he does, which I HIGHLY doubt, she simply says, "I have a PhD". The end, now class was that difficult?

 

[pathdr2b]

Spend some time in a hospital setting and you will see that his is simply untrue. PhDs (in various fields ranging from Physics to Psychology to Biological Science) are always referred to as "Doctor" both by patients and medical personnel. .

In the 15 or so years I've spent in hospital settings mainly as an employee but also as a volunteer and patient, I've rarely seen anyone called a "doctor" that wasn't an MD. And from the comments I've seen in this thread, I'm not that far off base.

Thankfully ALL doctorates from what I can see, are respected at the NIH Clinical Center. 👍

 

[pathdr2b]

I don't know how it works where you guys work but Jane Doe is going to look like a total tool if she introduces herself as Dr Doe while a 3rd year medical student on her surgical rotation!!

Why would she look like a tool? Because surgeons being at the top of the MD "food chain" say so?

While it wouldn't be my personal choice, people SHOULD be called by their titles if that's THIER preference for you to call them that. Out of RESPECT, I ALWAYS call those with PhD's, PharmD's, EdD's, ect "doctor" in professional settings unless I have their permission to call them by anoterh name

Just admit it, you guys just don't respect any other "doctor" but an MD. 🙄 How sad!

 

[pathdr2b]

As for "class over" comments...

It's commonly referred to as a joke or sense of humor which unfortunately is frequently in short supply among PhD types! 😉

 

[TicDouloureux]

It's ridiculous to assume "patients will get confued" when someone other than an MD gets called "doctor".

Please allow me to give you guys an example of not creating "patient confusion". Jane Doe a 3rd year med student with a PhD in Biochemistry is on rounds with the attending in geenral surgery.

"Hi Mr.X. My name is Dr. Jane Doe and I'm a 3rd year med student. Dr.Y is the attending who will be directly responsibe for your care so if you have any questions, please address her". This takes exactly 8 seconds to say.

OR

"Hi Mr.X. My name is Dr. Jane Doe and I'm a 3rd year med student.

Now people lets be real here. If Patient X is in the terminal stages of caner, do you REALLY believe he's going to say to Dr.Doe, "if you're a 3rd year med student, why are you being called a "doctor"?. And if he does, which I HIGHLY doubt, she simply says, "I have a PhD". The end, now class was that difficult?

I have had attendings introduce me as: "This is Dr. Jane Doe. She's a medical student working with me today." Which I don't particularly like, but they do it. Then later on, I'm doing something after the attending leaves and the patient and I are making conversation, and they ask me a question that makes it clear they think I am a resident. So then I say, no, I haven't graduated from medical school yet, but I have a PhD. Which isn't really a big deal, but I'd prefer to avoid the misrepresentation issue altogether by not using my title at this stage in my medical training.

Another reason I don't use my title and don't like it when attendings do: I don't want my fellow medical students to think that I think I am better than them, because I don't. They are my peers in this training process.

And as you said, using the title might well result in a question of clarification. Why waste the time?

As far as putting stuff on your coat, the way I see it, the purpose of that stuff is to identify your position in the health care team. It's important to know whether a nurse is a CRNA or a LPN or whatever, or if someone is a resident or a medical student, so you know what they are able and/or legally allowed to do. On the wards, having a PhD does not make me any different or more capable than any other medical student, so I don't see the point of putting it on my coat.

I don't think any of the MSTP students at my institution would insist on being called doctor in med school. Perhaps it's because things are very casual here - during grad school I addressed most of the faculty by their first names, not their titles. At the beginning of grad school, I thought it would be so cool to be able to be called "doctor" after I got my PhD, but now that I have it, using the title really isn't that important to me.

If you really want to get into a heated battle over title usage for MDs vs PhDs, drop on one of the wedding planning forum websites. According Emily Post, MDs get addressed as Doctor on wedding invitations, but PhDs do not. Which I think is bunk - as are most of the silly rules of wedding etiquette - so I adressed all of my PhD buddies as Doctor on the invites to my recent wedding. Take that, Emily!

 

[pathdr2b]

Think it through Path2b.

A) I have a PhD. It would be a strange situation if I didn't respect myself or my degree. Focus.

B) I am a medical student. Yet I don't call myself doctor besides when necessary in non-clinical scientific situations (eg: writing references for pre-med from my lab). Why don't I call myself doctor when I'm on the wards? B/c I'd look like a tool and, more importantly, it would be wrong to do so (see what everyone has carefully explained to you in the threads above).

I always find it useful to engage brain THEN mouth.

I know the meaning of "class over". You were trying to be patronising. You looked immature.

When you start clinicals in medical school (I'm guessing from your tone you are a premed or a preclinical student) you'll understand what people have been telling you a bit better here.

I think everyone has said what they want to say here and you just seem to be stirring it so I'm not going to rise to your bait. I'm done with this thread.

All the best,

W4G.

I choose to call people by their title out of respect. I certainily don't affford that respect to everyone as would be the case with you. Anyone that can't have a dicussion without resulting to insults and name calling isn't worth the paper the PhD degree was printed on.

PS- I've noticed that people with a good, healthy sense of humor are often called immature. Trust me, I take it as a compliment coming from someone who obviously has his head up his arse! 😛

 

[pathdr2b]

According Emily Post, MDs get addressed as Doctor on wedding invitations, but PhDs do not. Which I think is bunk - as are most of the silly rules of wedding etiquette - so I adressed all of my PhD buddies as Doctor on the invites to my recent wedding. Take that, Emily!

👍

I'm plan to do the same thing on my wedding invites/program as my Maid of Honor is a PharmD!

 

[Gfunk6]

The poster's original question was whether or not he/she should put a PhD on his/her white coat during the clinical years.

Advice from the following MSTP students: BDavis, Habari, TicDouloureux, AndyMilonakis, Waiting4Ganong, Gfunk6 = NO! It may feed your ego but you will look like a tool and it may hurt you in the long run.

Advice from a pre-med student: pathdr2b with 15 years of hospital experience = YES!

I think it's pretty clear what you should do. 'Nuff zed

 

[b&ierstiefel]

The poster's original question was whether or not he/she should put a PhD on his/her white coat during the clinical years.

Advice from the following MSTP students: BDavis, Habari, TicDouloureux, AndyMilonakis, Waiting4Ganong, Gfunk6 = NO! It may feed your ego but you will look like a tool and it may hurt you in the long run.

Advice from a pre-med student: pathdr2b with 15 years of hospital experience = YES!

I think it's pretty clear what you should do. 'Nuff zed

Short and to the point Gfunk6! 😀

As a third year medical student, you are at the bottom of the totem pole. The name of the game as an M3 is best summarized as "Know Your Role!" But at least you are only in this position for just one year. Just do the best you can, get through it without killing yourself, and become a better, stronger person through it all.

 

[pathdr2b]

Advice from a pre-med student: pathdr2b with 15 years of hospital experience = YES!
I think it's pretty clear what you should do. 'Nuff zed

This coming from a person with his picture in his avatar? 😕 First of all, I stated that THIS WOULD NOT BE MY PERSONAL CHOICE on a previous post but that people should do WHATEVER THEY CHOOSE and we SHOULD RESPECT THAT!!!!.

You know it's a funny thing about SDN. Whenever a person comminucates an opinion different from the "group" you all resort to this animalistic behavior of "ganging" up on them with verbal insults. That's cool. Luckily there are 2 web sites where a person can communicate an opinion different from the "majority" WITHOUT hostility:

kimmiedee.proboards23.com/index.cgi/
blackmeds.com/

Give it a look. You'll see that we don't have to get nasty with each other to make a point, which is not only the sign of a true professional but maturity as well! 😉 👍

 

[ears]

Pathdr2b: I'm sure you don't need me to tell you this, but of course when you're an MS-III you should put whatever the heck you want on your coat; it is your choice.

But you'll pay a price for it. Any medical student who gave the appearance of putting him/herself above their role would. If you think it's worth the price, then go ahead and do it. It isn't worth it for me; I have other conflicts I need to put my energy into. It sounds like it wouldn't be worth it for most of the other MD/PhD students on this board.

And I think your assumption that MDs want to prevent non-MDs from being called "doctor" is incorrect. If I thought the issue was that MDs were disrespecting PhDs, maybe I would want to fight that battle.

 

[pathdr2b]

It sounds like it wouldn't be worth it for most of the other MD/PhD students on this board.

If I worried about what many people here thought, I'd have quit the game a long time ago. Any opinion (which has frequently been mine) that goes against the grain here is ALWAYS met with insult but I can stand behind my different opinion. I look at it this way. I'll have to get used to the "good ol' boys" sooner or later and 99.9&% of the time, my classwork and research will speak volumes for me. 👍

Fortunately, I doubt I'll run into anyone here at either of my top 2 choice institutions and if I did, I'm sure the real life persona would cower in comparison to the nastiness, aggerssion, and malevolnce seen here. And at 5'8'' tall, I'd probably being looking at a scalp or two also!

 

[peehdee]

thanks guys for the discussions.

but the original question was not whether to be called a 'doc' or not, but more so should you PUT that after your name.
i think jane doe, phd can say, 'hello, my name is jane doe' period. no need to say, 'ms jane doe' or 'dr. jane doe'. right?

it seems to me from reading all of this that, the problem seems to be that MDs have egos. at one point in their life they didn't know scape. but now that they know a little bit they have to look down on others? is that right? i'm not talking just about the phd v md thing but in general. i don't know that, the grad path is that hostile. no need to be so aggresive about the pecking order. everyone who has not finished a medical training should be submissive to those who have finished it, is the vibe i'm getting. and no one has answered, would the 'MD' be willing to submissive is they were to be trained in other professions. i.e., a med grad who went to get a phd in business. would that person instist being called a 'doc'?

so when you guys are all grads of med schools, will you expect the same 'worship' from those who are coming up? or do you think that our generation is more open to seeing that being younger doesn't need to be equated with, 'you're stupid, you don't know anything, you need to kiss up to me'???

as for the wedding invitation not saying, dr. for phd, that's just being ignorant.

cheers

 

[b&ierstiefel]

it seems to me from reading all of this that, the problem seems to be that MDs have egos.

I think this is one of pathdr2b's main underlying points in his posts on this thread. I happen to agree with that.

One then has to ask why do MD's have egos? Well this is the mentality that is bred and fostered within the hierarchical medical system. Let's face it, medicine is a totem pole and when I said "Know your role" I meant it in this context. Everyone above those below them craps on them. And down and down it goes until the it gets to the M3 at the bottom. All MD's started at the bottom and the lower they were the more insecure, frustrated, and/or worthless they felt. They must compensate by doing SOMETHING to increase their sense of self-worth. For MD/PhD's, maybe putting a PhD on the ID tag or on the white coat is one way of doing so but IMHO, I think it is not a hot idea to put the PhD on the white coat. Why? It's somewhat out of context when you're in the wards and is kinda unnecessary. In my situation, my degree in biochem isn't gonna relieve a patient's constipation. Also, I personally have met some MD residents who tell me that they have an extra amount of respect for MD/PhD students, who they feel are very intelligent. That's good enough for me, although when I was an M3, I felt like a total *******. Hence, I would feel even more insecure wearing a PhD tag on my white coat...that would only serve to increase the expectations of me that I surely wouldn't be able to back up.

 

[pathdr2b]

I think this is one of pathdr2b's main underlying points in his posts on this thread. I happen to agree with that.

FINALLY, another educated voice of reason who actually read what I had to say! And not suprsingly, it comes from another future pathologist! 😉

PS-Pathdr2b is a woman albeit a rather assertive one!

 

[b&ierstiefel]

PS-Pathdr2b is a woman albeit a rather assertive one!

oh oops...my bad 🙁

 

[TicDouloureux]

thanks guys for the discussions.

but the original question was not whether to be called a 'doc' or not, but more so should you PUT that after your name.
i think jane doe, phd can say, 'hello, my name is jane doe' period. no need to say, 'ms jane doe' or 'dr. jane doe'. right?

Totally agree 😀

it seems to me from reading all of this that, the problem seems to be that MDs have egos. at one point in their life they didn't know scape. but now that they know a little bit they have to look down on others? is that right? i'm not talking just about the phd v md thing but in general. i don't know that, the grad path is that hostile. no need to be so aggresive about the pecking order. everyone who has not finished a medical training should be submissive to those who have finished it, is the vibe i'm getting. and no one has answered, would the 'MD' be willing to submissive is they were to be trained in other professions. i.e., a med grad who went to get a phd in business. would that person instist being called a 'doc'?

I think the notion that MDs are arrogant bastards who get off on emphasizing thier place at the top of the totem pole is a bit exaggerated. Yeah, there are some insecure arseholes out there, but most seem to be nice reasonable people.

To answer your question about MDs in other fields of training, I've met quite a few residents who were doing a year or two in basic science labs, and none of them insisted on being called doctor, just like most postdocs don't insist on being called doctor. Hell, most PIs I know don't insist on being called doctor. Anyway, I didn't get the sense they thought they were "above" me because they had an MD. Also, there was an MD on my thesis committee. I didn't call him doctor; I called him Frank.

But you're right: grad school is much more laid back about the "pecking order." MDs and PhDs ask grad students for advice all the time. People don't care about your degree so much as what you know. Also, I think PIs and grad students socialize together way more than med students and attendings do. Why is it like that? Part of it might be due to differences in the personalities drawn to medicine vs science. But I think a large part of it has to do with the length of time people are together. Grad students and postdocs and PIs work together for years at a time. In med school, the turnover is so much shorter. A month in one place is considered a long rotation. And the staff turnover (nurses and techs and such) is shorter too. Since you're not able to get to know people that well, people tend to judge others on their credentials. But if you look at how attendings and residents interact, it's often more similar to PIs and grad students/postdocs. Not because the attending thinks the residents is more worthy because of the MD degree, but because they've been working together for years and they know each other pretty well. Just my theory.

so when you guys are all grads of med schools, will you expect the same 'worship' from those who are coming up? or do you think that our generation is more open to seeing that being younger doesn't need to be equated with, 'you're stupid, you don't know anything, you need to kiss up to me'???

I've been on my third year rotations since the beginning of July, and I've met two MDs with that attitude. The rest have been very nice people who are interested in teaching med students. (But after reading some of the posts over on the clinical rotations forum, I am wondering if my school is abnormally student-friendly 😉 ) But no, I don't expect anybody to "worship" me based on my degree, and I really didn't have much respect for the two guys I've met so far who did. I think people like that have some sort of insecurity issues going on.

as for the wedding invitation not saying, dr. for phd, that's just being ignorant.

Yes, it is. Emily Post also says that it is not proper to put the invitation envelopes through the printer. I ignored that stupid rule too. Emily would have been apalled at my wedding. 😛

 

[Alexs42]

Interesting discussion so far. From my perspective, a good part of the dillema has been obviated by the fact that our hospital puts you degree(s) on your ID automatically. I feel that to request and insist on being called doctor is crazy, especially as one never did it during grad school (no postdoc or PI i know has ever insisted on being called "Dr", most in fact were quite upset if you did). Stiching your Ph.D. onto your lab coat, hmmmm, probably not, beacuse then "you" emphasize it, and it should stand on its own.
As a 3rd I never have nor would want to be called Dr., but I see nothing wrong with the degree being on my ID. Really, I am not ashamed of being a Ph.D. in immunology, should I be? When rounding, and in the OR, I never mentioned it, but more than once, the attendings asked me about it and were interested in what field I worked in. That is not a bad thing, as they may remember you better, and you did not push it into their face.
In summary:
1. No "Dr." calling... did not do it while in research, no point/counterproductive to do it now.
2. If you have it on your ID, that's fine, as long as you try not to stick it into people's faces. If they ask you about, that's ok, you should not be ashamed of it, you did do your work for a good few years.
3. Intentionally stiching it into your white coat, well I think that is pushing it... No need to get corncobs up one's ***.
Just my 2c
Aleks

 

[pathdr2b]

Hell, most PIs I know don't insist on being called doctor. Anyway, I didn't get the sense they thought they were "above" me because they had an MD. Also, there was an MD on my thesis committee. I didn't call him doctor; I called him Frank.

I have never, ever been comfortable with this. One of my PI's in grad school insisted that I call her by her first name which was VERY uncomfortable, but I'm from the "ol school". I NEVER did call my other advisor by her first name nor anyone else in the chemistry department. Although many other students did, I was not comfortable with that.

This arguement kind of reminds me of the talk I occasinally hear on the subway. Many people wear their work ID/school badges while using public transportation (for those with student discounts it's sometimes required). And I always find it funny that when the Georgetown law student wears his badge he gets "flack" for it, but I've yet to hear somone say the jaintor from NIH is wearing his badge to "show off". 🙄

 

[peehdee]

.


Yes, it is. Emily Post also says that it is not proper to put the invitation envelopes through the printer. I ignored that stupid rule too. Emily would have been apalled at my wedding. 😛[/QUOTE]

can you give a link to this? was it a book or website or some magazine article?

 

[TicDouloureux]

Yes, it is. Emily Post also says that it is not proper to put the invitation envelopes through the printer. I ignored that stupid rule too. Emily would have been apalled at my wedding. 😛

can you give a link to this? was it a book or website or some magazine article?

Somewhere on theknot.com. According to the etiquette nazis, it is more "personal" to pay a stranger to do your invites in calligraphy than to spend several hours feeding them through the printer yourself. That kind of stuff is also in the Crane's Wedding Blue Book, which I mostly ignored, as it was much too stuffy and uptight for my tastes. And then on the knot message boards, there are huge debates about handwritten vs printed envelopes, cash vs open bars, fresh vs silk flowers, etc. that can make even the nastiest of flame wars here look quite tame in comparison. It can get quite entertaining. 😀

 

[pseudoknot]

Anyone that can't have a dicussion without resulting to insults and name calling isn't worth the paper the PhD degree was printed on.

...coming from someone who obviously has his head up his arse! 😛

Hilarity.

 

[Fermata]

Hilarity.

We're only human.