Today in class

[Krimson]

Today in civics and economics class, another student gets into an argument with my teacher. My teacher starts saying that people with average IQ's will NOT get into medical school no matter how hard they study, or what they do.

Is that necessarily true ?

What he said kind of pissed me off, because I'm sort of a below average student, but i still manage to get by, and it just kind of crushed all my dreams of even going to college let alone medical school, and becoming a doctor.

I mean, can't you get into medical school even if you have to study day and night just to get the grades ?
You don't have to be naturally/born gifted or smart do you ?

-Krim
​

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[Electronegative]

don't worry, you'll be fine. When you get to college you will see a lot of those jackass professors and get used to it. If you study hard enough and do extracurriculars you'll definetly get in to medical schools.

 

[typhoonegator]

Intelligence is one thing, and it is moderately important to getting into (and through) medical school. But sitting and studying and memorizing and retaining for hours on end takes much more than intelligence. What you may lack in one area can be made up in others.

Doing well on the USMLE is not about brilliant leaps of deductive reasoning and finely honed logic. Its about remembering which foramen the greater petrosal nerve passes through. Being intelligent and having a great memory do not necessarily go hand in hand, nor does the discipline to apply that memory to your work.

 

[Krimson]

Being intelligent and having a great memory do not necessarily go hand in hand, nor does the discipline to apply that memory to your work.

You kind of lost me here. Yes, the two don't go hand in hand.
but are you saying you can't get into(and through) medical school by just studying the material hours and hours on end and applying it to your work?

 

[Cybii]

Today in civics and economics class, another student gets into an argument with my teacher. My teacher starts saying that people with average IQ's will NOT get into medical school no matter how hard they study, or what they do.

Is that necessarily true ?

What he said kind of pissed me off, because I'm sort of a below average student, but i still manage to get by, and it just kind of crushed all my dreams of even going to college let alone medical school, and becoming a doctor.

I mean, can't you get into medical school even if you have to study day and night just to get the grades ?
You don't have to be naturally/born gifted or smart do you ?

-Krim
​

This reminds me of an argument I had with my middle-school science teacher. Back in 8th grade I needed his signature to allow me to skip freshmen science in high school and go straight into biology, but he didn't want to sign it because "science is not my strong point." After fighting him tooth-and-nail for the signature and getting an override, I aced all my sciences in high school and got a BS in biology.

I would say I am not "naturally/born smart," I always had to study and nothing ever came easy. It made me into a more critical and determined individual... and hey, going to med school next year. You'll be fine!!


Besides... your teacher of economics teacher never went to medical school, so how would he know what it takes to become a physician?? lol

 

[Ischemic]

You kind of lost me here. Yes, the two don't go hand in hand.
but are you saying you can't get into(and through) medical school by just studying the material hours and hours on end and applying it to your work?

What he means is that there's a difference between doing well due to natural intelligence and dedication/work ethics. Natural intelligence can get you only so far (usually high school and sometimes college) but without a strong and dedicated work ethic you're bound to fail eventually. Natural intelligence will help in you understanding things faster but it won't help you remember all the nerves of the brachial plexus and what they do if you don't put in the effort.

In the end, work ethic trumps intelligence. You work hard and chances are good you'll succeed. I know kids in med school who aren't the most naturally gifted but they put in the work and they succeeded in the end. Trust me on this, I used to be the naturally intelligent kid who failed and had to reform my ways before getting into med school.

 

[typhoonegator]

Exactly.

Some people are very intelligent, but have a hard time retaining information, or learning to discern what is important and what is not. In medical school (and to some extent pre-med classes) the most important skill is not problem-solving, but rather memorization and separating that which is important from that which is not.

If you can figure out what actually matters when studying, it cuts your memorization load into a tiny fraction of the whole, making the information far easier to assimilate.

 

[45408]

Not everyone can do it, but your IQ is only one part of the puzzle. A strong work ethic is also a must.

 

[turkeyjerky]

Don't worry, there are plenty of people in my class who are of average, or below, intelligence.

 

[coach55]

Someone's opinion of you does not have to become your reality.

 

[CaptainSSO]

You'll be fine. Most pre-med students I know who have gotten accepted to med school are not very smart, just straight up average. That's the bell curve.

If you are willing to work hard and do what it takes to succeed (and of average intelligence), you'll make it.

Edit: Didn't even see turkeyjerkey's post. That's coming from someone who is actually in medical school.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

An IQ score is an estimation of a number of different things that are thought to make up intelligence. I wouldn't worry too much about that stuff now. Most success in graduate education is about effort, consistency, and knowing how to maximize your strengths and minimize your weaknesses.

 

[schrizto]

IMO, I think someone should be at least above average in intelligence to go to medical school. But I am only a pre-med student, so what do I know? I think medicine involves a lot more tasks then studying a lot and memorizing (hard work), or being able to deduce things well from information presented (what IQ is supposed to measure). It also involves other things that can't be quantified (ie, compassion and people skills).

The truth is, people want their doctors to be smart, knowledgeable, and overall competent. They are putting their health in your hands. That's why the education is rigorous, and why not everyone can become a doctor.

Most success in graduate education is about effort, consistency, and knowing how to maximize your strengths and minimize your weaknesses.

And I would say someone with high intelligence would be more adept at planning out how to maximize strengths and minimize weaknesses.

 

[GoodmanBrown]

IMO, I think someone should be at least above average in intelligence to go to medical school. But I am only a pre-med student, so what do I know? I think medicine involves a lot more tasks then studying a lot and memorizing (hard work), or being able to deduce things well from information presented (what IQ is supposed to measure). It also involves other things that can't be quantified (ie, compassion and people skills).

The truth is, people want their doctors to be smart, knowledgeable, and overall competent. They are putting their health in your hands. That's why the education is rigorous, and why not everyone can become a doctor.

And I would say someone with high intelligence would be more adept at planning out how to maximize strengths and minimize weaknesses.

While it's still popular to think of intelligence (and IQ [and genes in general]) as some immutable value that each human gets assigned at conception from his/her parents' genes, science has pretty much realized that the environment has a much larger factor in shaping how genes are expressed and thus, a person's characteristics. The Genius in Us All argues that humans rise to the occasion and use their full brain capacity when the need arises. It further argues that you can make changes in your brain. So, if you're dead set on getting into medical school and study extremely hard in your classes over a prolonged period of time, this hard work will actually shape and re-form your brain to handle longer periods of intense study and increased efficiency in memorization. You can literally make yourself smarter.

So get to it. This here Interweb ain'ts gonna make you no smarter!

 

[the duck]

Did know what pick up on the fact that the OP is deducing he as a low IQ, but cause he isn't "the best of students", which I'm assuming to mean he doesn't get good grades. Performance is high school isn't really much of an indicator of how smart you are...

 

[CaptainSSO]

IMO, I think someone should be at least above average in intelligence to go to medical school...The truth is, people want their doctors to be smart, knowledgeable, and overall competent. They are putting their health in your hands. That's why the education is rigorous, and why not everyone can become a doctor.

Not really true, brah, but this definitely seems like something someone of average intelligence would say to make themselves feel smarter.

If you don't have a learning disability and possess at least an average intellect (IQ around 100 or so), and are willing to work your ass off, you will get into med school.

 

[the duck]

Not really true, brah, but this definitely seems like something someone of average intelligence would say to make themselves feel smarter.

If you don't have a learning disability and possess at least an average intellect (IQ around 100 or so), and are willing to work your ass off, you will get into med school.

I would be scared for someone of average intelligence to be treating me.

 

[schrizto]

Not really true, brah, but this definitely seems like something someone of average intelligence would say to make themselves feel smarter.

If you don't have a learning disability and possess at least an average intellect (IQ around 100 or so), and are willing to work your ass off, you will get into med school.

You can talk about how hard work is everything as much as you want, but people are of varying intelligence and it doesn't relate directly with how hard they work. CaptainSSO, you're speaking in definites that will only give someone a false sense of security. Studying is important, but you have to know how to effectively study, which means that it's not necessarily the amount of time you spend poring over notes but the method in which you get yourself to learn and retain the information.

I think it's pretty safe to conclude that though it's possible to get into medical school with hard work and average intelligence, being hardworking and above average in intelligence or more is only going to help.

 

[Ischemic]

Wow, we got a bunch of premeds arguing about what it takes to be a good doctor whereas you have med students and a fellow saying otherwise. I wonder which one I'd listen to .

You guys are confusing being smart and being intelligent. Smart is knowing facts, data, and being able to perform tasks well ... basically something you can learn. Intelligence is something more innate which allows you to understand more conceptual/abstract ideas quicker. You can be smart AND intelligent but you can also be either one independently. Smart is a function of work ethic and how much you want to put in to make yourself great, whereas intelligence is rarely changeable. People in med school usually fall into the smart category with average to above average intelligence. Sure some get by on intelligence alone but you must have really high intelligence to get by without studying much in med school.

To duck, no one is saying to let Paris Hilton in and perform brain surgery on you. Most things are procedural where you learn how to do it and the extent of the effort you put in to learn it will determine how good you are. You don't have to be Einstein to be a doc (nor do you want to be like Paris HIlton) but if you put in the effort you can succeed.

 

[schrizto]

Wow, we got a bunch of premeds arguing about what it takes to be a good doctor whereas you have med students and a fellow saying otherwise. I wonder which one I'd listen to .

You guys are confusing being smart and being intelligent. Smart is knowing facts, data, and being able to perform tasks well ... basically something you can learn. Intelligence is something more innate which allows you to understand more conceptual/abstract ideas quicker. You can be smart AND intelligent but you can also be either one independently. Smart is a function of work ethic and how much you want to put in to make yourself great, whereas intelligence is rarely changeable. People in med school usually fall into the smart category with average to above average intelligence. Sure some get by on intelligence alone but you must have really high intelligence to get by without studying much in med school.

To duck, no one is saying to let Paris Hilton in and perform brain surgery on you. Most things are procedural where you learn how to do it and the extent of the effort you put in to learn it will determine how good you are. You don't have to be Einstein to be a doc (nor do you want to be like Paris HIlton) but if you put in the effort you can succeed.

I'll clarify what I meant then. In my posts, "smart" has the same meaning as "intelligent" and your definition of "smart" (knowing facts, data, tasks) I consider to be "knowledgeable".

 

[CopToEM]

Today in civics and economics class, another student gets into an argument with my teacher. My teacher starts saying that people with average IQ's will NOT get into medical school no matter how hard they study, or what they do.

Is that necessarily true ?

What he said kind of pissed me off, because I'm sort of a below average student, but i still manage to get by, and it just kind of crushed all my dreams of even going to college let alone medical school, and becoming a doctor.

I mean, can't you get into medical school even if you have to study day and night just to get the grades ?
You don't have to be naturally/born gifted or smart do you ?

-Krim
​

I couldn't disagree with your teacher more. Some of the best individuals in any career are those who work their way up against the odds. My chemistry professor taught us, "The only thing a college diploma means is that you have the ability to follow directions." That's essentially all education is. The ability to read, comprehend, apply, and do so within the expectations of a higher authority. You do not necessarily need to be the brightest individual to do that.

I'm not in med school yet but am only a couple of semesters away with stellar stats. I graduated around 80th out of 130 in my high school class, failed Algebra twice, and barely scraped by in almost all subjects except English. The odds were against me from the very beginning. However, my lack of performance in high school was not a matter of ignorance but a matter of motivation. I had no real life goal in mind and was just coasting along thinking that everything would fall into place.

With all due respect to educators world-wide, do not read so much into what most high school teachers tell you about life. I've found their advice, on average, to be so far from the truth that it's scary.

 

[Krimson]

I couldn't disagree with your teacher more. Some of the best individuals in any career are those who work their way up against the odds.

I graduated around 80th out of 130 in my high school class, failed Algebra twice, and barely scraped by in almost all subjects except English. The odds were against me from the very beginning. However, my lack of performance in high school was not a matter of ignorance but a matter of motivation. I had no real life goal in mind and was just coasting along thinking that everything would fall into place.

With all due respect to educators world-wide, do not read so much into what most high school teachers tell you about life. I've found their advice, on average, to be so far from the truth that it's scary.

After reading through many opinionated post, yours was the most helpful, because im in the exact same place you were.

Might i ask what got you motivated/ determined to do better in high school, i slowly see myself coasting the same path

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I would be scared for someone of average intelligence to be treating me.

I'm sure it has happened already,and it will happen again. It isn't a knock on people who have a 150+ IQ, it is a compliment to the majority of med students who aren't naturally gifted and have to work really hard to get through.

Intelligence is something more innate which allows you to understand more conceptual/abstract ideas quicker. You can be smart AND intelligent but you can also be either one independently.

It'd take far too long to explain the various aspects, but suffice to say intelligence is complex.

To duck, no one is saying to let Paris Hilton in and perform brain surgery on you. Most things are procedural where you learn how to do it and the extent of the effort you put in to learn it will determine how good you are.

Paris is actually a really sweet girl in person, but that aside...listen to Ischemic.

 

[mmmcdowe]

http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images/2007-08/iq-range-occupations.jpg


So according to this graph, most doctors were not of average intelligence in this study. The problem with IQ tests, though, is that people of higher education and experience with similar thinking problems tend to do better on them because of testing experience. Ideally, IQ tests would be taken at a point where most people are of the same educational level within reason, say 16, and then be followed for 10 years to see what professions they chose. That's my understanding of it at least.

In the end, one must come to terms that not everyone can be whatever they want when they grow up. You will never know until you know, and I definitely feel that we should advocate for people to explore their dreams, but in the end I will never be a astronaut or a jockey. I'm too big. I'll never play for the NBA, I'm too small. Ultimately, some people just aren't fit to be physicians. Once again, you will never know until you try so keep chugging along and try to learn better study skills along the way. Go to office hours, work your butt off.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images/2007-08/iq-range-occupations.jpg

Definitely take that graph with a large grain of salt. There was a paper referenced at the top of it that is worth reading (http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/cde/cdewp/98-07.pdf) It talks about some of the limitations of IQ and occupation, as well as common issues related to IQ testing.

 

[ButImLETired]

Wow, we got a bunch of premeds arguing about what it takes to be a good doctor whereas you have med students and a fellow saying otherwise. I wonder which one I'd listen to .

You guys are confusing being smart and being intelligent. Smart is knowing facts, data, and being able to perform tasks well ... basically something you can learn. Intelligence is something more innate which allows you to understand more conceptual/abstract ideas quicker. You can be smart AND intelligent but you can also be either one independently. Smart is a function of work ethic and how much you want to put in to make yourself great, whereas intelligence is rarely changeable. People in med school usually fall into the smart category with average to above average intelligence. Sure some get by on intelligence alone but you must have really high intelligence to get by without studying much in med school.

To duck, no one is saying to let Paris Hilton in and perform brain surgery on you. Most things are procedural where you learn how to do it and the extent of the effort you put in to learn it will determine how good you are. You don't have to be Einstein to be a doc (nor do you want to be like Paris HIlton) but if you put in the effort you can succeed.

Actually, as another med student, I don't know that I totally agree.

I absolutely don't think you have to be Einstein to succeed in med school. But I do think that above average intelligence helps. The pace of med school is so absurdly fast, that if it takes you a really long time to understand a concept and internalize it, it is a massively uphill battle. I am not fantastic at memorizing, and have no spatial intelligence to save my life, but I am very good at using logic to understand complex concepts. This saved my butt tons of times in physiology for example- sure, you can memorize every factoid and do passably well, but I got to memorize less and think through problems more in order to arrive to the same answers. Of course, I was far weaker in anatomy, where my average memory and abysmal spatial skills weighed on me the most. So my point is, sure, if you study hard enough you'll probably pass. But if you have to memorize everything the professor says because you can't problem-solve, or if you have to re-read everything tons of times because you can't keep up with the crazy pace, you might burn out and not have a life.

That being said, OP, high school really isn't a good indicator of how well you'll do in college or med school. It's also not that good an indicator of how smart you are, really. Stay confident and get some hard work done. A lot of times people associate their intelligence with their grades, and they assume that because they're not straight A students they're not that smart. This isn't really true a lot of the time. Just find what you love to do and what you're passionate about, get the basics down, and work hard. You'll figure out whether it's the right path soon enough.

 

[Ischemic]

Actually, as another med student, I don't know that I totally agree.

I absolutely don't think you have to be Einstein to succeed in med school. But I do think that above average intelligence helps. The pace of med school is so absurdly fast, that if it takes you a really long time to understand a concept and internalize it, it is a massively uphill battle. I am not fantastic at memorizing, and have no spatial intelligence to save my life, but I am very good at using logic to understand complex concepts. This saved my butt tons of times in physiology for example- sure, you can memorize every factoid and do passably well, but I got to memorize less and think through problems more in order to arrive to the same answers. Of course, I was far weaker in anatomy, where my average memory and abysmal spatial skills weighed on me the most. So my point is, sure, if you study hard enough you'll probably pass. But if you have to memorize everything the professor says because you can't problem-solve, or if you have to re-read everything tons of times because you can't keep up with the crazy pace, you might burn out and not have a life.

That being said, OP, high school really isn't a good indicator of how well you'll do in college or med school. It's also not that good an indicator of how smart you are, really. Stay confident and get some hard work done. A lot of times people associate their intelligence with their grades, and they assume that because they're not straight A students they're not that smart. This isn't really true a lot of the time. Just find what you love to do and what you're passionate about, get the basics down, and work hard. You'll figure out whether it's the right path soon enough.

Oh I totally agree with you that having an above average intelligence will make life much more bearable in med school. It frees up more time for you to do other things to keep you sane instead of sitting and reading the syllabus over and over again. But my point was to address an issue some premed brought up regarding how only above intelligent people should be admitted into med school. I completely and adamantly disagree on this count. You don't have to be above average intelligence to qualify or even be an amazing doctor. And how exactly do you base "intelligence" anyway? MCAT? GPA? SAT/ACT scores? Come on. I actually admire and respect someone who's able to overcome their average intelligence by sheer will power and work ethic than some kid with a 190 IQ who smokes pot all day. If I were a patient, I would go to the "average" kid because I know he's going to go the extra mile to find out what my problem is and how to treat it based on his work ethic. From my experience, those that have had it easy all their lives tend to get frazzled and quit at the first sign of a challenge they can't handle. That's my personal belief.

 

[FutureCTDoc]

The reality is that there is a limit to how unintelligent a physician is. Hard work makes up for a lot. However, to be above the minimums to get into US medical school osteopathic or allopathic one has to meet a few minimums. Very few people are admitted to US Schools with less than a 3.0 SGPA, 3.0 Overall and 24 MCAT. There are exceptions however, the aforementioned numbers are the bare minimums for the least competitive schools in the country and a person with those numbers who applies broadly should expect to be rejected. To meet those minimums one needs to have a decent amount of firepower. I personally can't say below X IQ score there is no chance however, people near "average" tend not to get degrees. The average SAT is 1000 CR+M and according to http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/GREIQ.aspx this works out to an IQ of 108. The average physician represents the top fraction of their undergraduate class. What does this mean? It means that the minimum for the population of professionals is around 120 according to Murray and Herrnstein. Is that the minimum? I can't say with certainty however there is most definitely a selection bias for the most talented and gifted to go into medicine. Your economics professor was right most people of average i.e. 100 IQ couldn't get into a decent college as a 100 IQ, equals a CR+M of 880.

 

[mintleif]

I'm sure it has happened already,and it will happen again. It isn't a knock on people who have a 150+ IQ, it is a compliment to the majority of med students who aren't naturally gifted and have to work really hard to get through.



It'd take far too long to explain the various aspects, but suffice to say intelligence is complex.



Paris is actually a really sweet girl in person, but that aside...listen to Ischemic.

Lol. And how do you know?......

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Lol. And how do you know?......

I hung out with her at her club a few years ago (2006?). I struck up a conversation with a girl at the back bar of the VIP, and she happened to be part of her circle of friends. We walked back to another roped off area and introduced me to everyone. It was Paris' b-day, so everyone was out celebrating. Anyhow, I talked with her for a few minutes, and she was very sweet.

My friend later ran into her during a taping of The Simple Life, and said the same thing.

 

[mintleif]

I hung out with her at her club a few years ago (2006?). I struck up a conversation with a girl at the back bar of the VIP, and she happened to be part of her circle of friends. We walked back to another roped off area and introduced me to everyone. It was Paris' b-day, so everyone was out celebrating. Anyhow, I talked with her for a few minutes, and she was very sweet.

My friend later ran into her during a taping of The Simple Life, and said the same thing.

Very cool and lucky.


(looks up to the heavens) Why is it that everyone else is so darn lucky? Hmmm?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Very cool and lucky.


(looks up to the heavens) Why is it that everyone else is so darn lucky? Hmmm?

I'm not sure it is luck, probably more to do with how I meet people. I've met a ton of celebs at fundraisers and political events, and then just randomly through friends and family. Celebs are people who happen to hit it famous.

Anyhow...back on topic.

 

[seelee]

To the OP: Your teacher sounds super inspiring. Let me know when the "made-for-tv" movie comes out about him.

In all reality, the teacher sounds like a bitter douche who has long since realized that he will always have a mediocre life and the only way he can feel better about his own lame situation is by trashing his students.

In reality though, don't judge your future capacity by what you are doing in high school. I was a horrible student in high school but after some time off, and finally going back to school 5 years after HS graduation, I discovered that I am a science wiz. I ended up graduating Cum Laude w/ a degree in chemistry.

I am not going to tell you "just work hard and you will definitely get into medical school" because that just isn't true. I know people who did not work very hard, and got in, and I know even more who worked as hard as they could and did not get in. You need to go to college, work as hard as you can and see where you are at that point. Not everyone is cut out for medicine, but that doesn't mean that you are less capable than others. The purpose of college is to discover your strengths and find where you can best apply those.

Forget this douche teacher. I had HS teachers tell me that I wouldn't amount to anything either. Every time I get an A on a test I smile a little when I think about how so many people counted me out. You can do it too. Just find your talents and build on them.

Good luck.

 

[mintleif]

To the OP: Your teacher sounds super inspiring. Let me know when the "made-for-tv" movie comes out about him.

In all reality, the teacher sounds like a bitter douche who has long since realized that he will always have a mediocre life and the only way he can feel better about his own lame situation is by trashing his students.

In reality though, don't judge your future capacity by what you are doing in high school. I was a horrible student in high school but after some time off, and finally going back to school 5 years after HS graduation, I discovered that I am a science wiz. I ended up graduating Cum Laude w/ a degree in chemistry.

I am not going to tell you "just work hard and you will definitely get into medical school" because that just isn't true. I know people who did not work very hard, and got in, and I know even more who worked as hard as they could and did not get in. You need to go to college, work as hard as you can and see where you are at that point. Not everyone is cut out for medicine, but that doesn't mean that you are less capable than others. The purpose of college is to discover your strengths and find where you can best apply those.

Forget this douche teacher. I had HS teachers tell me that I wouldn't amount to anything either. Every time I get an A on a test I smile a little when I think about how so many people counted me out. You can do it too. Just find your talents and build on them.

Good luck.

 

[45408]

If you don't have a learning disability and possess at least an average intellect (IQ around 100 or so), and are willing to work your ass off, you will get into med school.

Maybe.

 

[CopToEM]

After reading through many opinionated post, yours was the most helpful, because im in the exact same place you were.

Might i ask what got you motivated/ determined to do better in high school, i slowly see myself coasting the same path

Sorry for taking so long to answer you. For some reason, I never received the e-mail that you replied.

Anyway. I never did get determined to do better in high school. I was a straight A student up to a certain point and after that I never recovered. My problem was, frankly, that I didn't give a damn. I graduated high school in a class of 130 students and I was somewhere around 80th. Forty of those students were ones from the alternative education center. I barely graduated ahead of them.

See, I thought I had it all figured out. I was going to be a business owner (still am), design websites (still do), and be a cop (was). Everything else, I thought, would take care of itself. In reality, most things did, except the bills and the family.

That's what it took for me. It took the harsh reality that life is unforgiving. There really is no gray ground between paying your bills and not paying your bills. At the end of the month, you either have the money for everything or you don't. Once you face the latter of the two (not having the money) for long enough it really changes your perspective on things.

Unless you're an unbelievably gifted business-mind or from a privileged background with a trust fund, this world will be very cruel to you without a solid education. At this stage in your life, the ball is in your hands, and whether you make it or break it is entirely up to you. I do not mean for that to scare you but I mean for it to motivate you.

I'm a firm believer that there's NOTHING that makes one person more likely to have a positive outcome in college than another. There are far too many opportunities available to help a student succeed for that to be the case.

You can conquer the world... nobody can conquer it for you. Hang in there!

 

[MossPoh]

I think you need to read "Outliers" by Malcom Gladwell. You'll even get to see a story in there about how one's intelligence only helps them to a point and after that, it tends to be everything else coming together for better or worse. There IS a limit to how far intelligence will get you. The best example of this, is the one described in "Outliers" about Christopher Langan.

Long story short, he has a freakishly high IQ around the 200 range and never made it through college. Wound up working as a ranch hand, bouncer and whatever else he did. Writes papers, but since he has no academic credentials people don't take them too seriously.

 

[schrizto]

I think you need to read "Outliers" by Malcom Gladwell. You'll even get to see a story in there about how one's intelligence only helps them to a point and after that, it tends to be everything else coming together for better or worse. There IS a limit to how far intelligence will get you. The best example of this, is the one described in "Outliers" about Christopher Langan.

Long story short, he has a freakishly high IQ around the 200 range and never made it through college. Wound up working as a ranch hand, bouncer and whatever else he did. Writes papers, but since he has no academic credentials people don't take them too seriously.

Good book, but it isn't exactly motivating. What I remember from "Outliers" was that extremely successful people are successful because of things that are pretty much out of their control, like the decade, socioeconomic class, or location they were born in. For example, Gladwell says the advantage that Bill Gates had was that he got very good with computers early on because his wealthy high school had a computer, which was absolutely unheard of at the time, and also because he was born at the right time, in the 1950s along with a lot of other eventual software billionaires.

Chris Langan never had the right opportunities, though he was able to get full scholarships to UChicago and Reed, he lost the scholarship he got from Reed because his family was uneducated and didn't know how to fill out the official documents to maintain it.

In the end, the basic premise of "Outliers" was that the people given the best opportunities always win out over people who were given less opportunities. For example, I know kids that were able to do research in high school, competed in Intel STS etc. because they had the connections and proximity to a lab, while I did not. Based on Gladwell's 10,000 hour rule, if they continue doing research, they will always be better than someone who started doing research in college. The examples of successful people in "Outliers" such as Bill Gates and J. Robert Oppenheimer all had the common identification of being born into wealthy families, while Chris Langan was from a low-income, single parent family. And that was just very demotivating, because Gladwell's conclusion is that major success is not due to intelligence or hard work, but factors we cannot really control, which may be true but disillusioning to consider.

 

[bambi]

The fact that you are even considering medical means you don't have an average IQ. An average IQ is 100, if you actually met someone with this IQ you would know it. An old micro prof of mine says he regards those with an IQ of 100 as ******ed. An average med school applicant/prospective applicant is not the same as an average person.

 

[schrizto]

The fact that you are even considering medical means you don't have an average IQ. An average IQ is 100, if you actually met someone with this IQ you would know it. An old micro prof of mine says he regards those with an IQ of 100 as ******ed. An average med school applicant/prospective applicant is not the same as an average person.

Um, why would this be? My impression so far is that nearly everyone considers being a doctor at one point, especially with so many medical television dramas around.

If a 100 IQ is considered ******ed by your micro prof, then what would he consider average?

 

[bambi]

Um, why would this be? My impression so far is that nearly everyone considers being a doctor at one point, especially with so many medical television dramas around.

If a 100 IQ is considered ******ed by your micro prof, then what would he consider average?

There is a difference between watching Grey's Anatomy and thinking, ooh that would be fun and seriously thinking about medical school.

I don't know the inner workings of his mind and this was years ago but really if you think people in med school have an IQ of 100 you are out of your mind. To anyone remotely academic an IQ this low would be noticeable.

 

[schrizto]

There is a difference between watching Grey's Anatomy and thinking, ooh that would be fun and seriously thinking about medical school.

I don't know the inner workings of his mind and this was years ago but really if you think people in med school have an IQ of 100 you are out of your mind. To anyone remotely academic an IQ this low would be noticeable.

If you go by what I previously said in this thread, it's pretty clear that I don't believe medical students have average intelligence. However, what I was getting at about the TV shows isn't simple daydreaming but that many people do seriously consider medicine without understanding a lot of the commitment involved. I've met many people that call themselves pre-med in college, but I don't assume that they are bright just because of that.

I also don't think a 100 IQ would be as glaringly noticeable as you describe.

 

[bambi]

If you go by what I previously said in this thread, it's pretty clear that I don't believe medical students have average intelligence. However, what I was getting at about the TV shows isn't simple daydreaming but that many people do seriously consider medicine without understanding a lot of the commitment involved. I've met many people that call themselves pre-med in college, but I don't assume that they are bright just because of that.

I also don't think a 100 IQ would be as glaringly noticeable as you describe.

I didn't read the whole thread, don't have the time so don't know what you have said before. As for the daydreaming etc, there is again a difference between knowing what it really involves and being intelligent enough to consider it as an actual option. As for the IQ not being obvious, you may not come into contact with people that are average, or if you do, don't talk to them enough to realise it. Your family are likely similar to you, as are your friends or you probably wouldn't be great friends as you just wouldn't have as much in common or as good conversation. Either that or you have an IQ of 100 so don't realise!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Just to reiterate....

An IQ score is an estimation of a number of different things that are thought to make up intelligence.

The construct of IQ is complex, and it really isn't an accurate comparison in a vacuum. For instance, 10 people with a FSIQ of 100 on a WAIS-III (common IQ measure) can look quite different amongst themselves. A person can have statistically significant differences within their sub-scale scores, and do quite well in medical school. Someone else can have statistically significant differences within other sub-scale scores, and fail out of medical school. Lastly, a person can score completely "average" in every sub-test and later go on to snag a ROADS placement...OMG!

Using an IQ score to measure "intelligence" is akin to choosing one medium of art to judge the overall artist abilities of an artist across all mediums. It isn't a horrible quick and dirty way to get some data, but it is far from conclusive. Some of the brightest people to ever walk this earth would have done miserably in a medical school because "intelligence" is only part of the equation.

I have done assessments on a plethora people, including current/future physicians....and while most were "above average" with a handful in the >95% range, there were some who weren't.

 

[schrizto]

That's essentially all education is. The ability to read, comprehend, apply, and do so within the expectations of a higher authority.

This is an old thread, but upon rereading, I think this is a terrible definition of education. It seems as if you define education only within the boundaries of school. Education is not just about getting the grades and appealing to a authority figure, in fact, most of the most essential skills are learned outside of school. Especially when you get higher up in education, you're no longer always doing something under the supervision of an authority figure any longer. Education is about learning how to think for yourself.

 

[indianjatt]

Reading this, where do you cut the line between average/below average/aboveaverage? Do most of you base it off an IQ test/MCAT/SAT/GPA? How do you guys categorize individuals into these groups? I'm just curious to know what everyone things.