- Joined
- Feb 3, 2002
- Messages
- 3,077
- Reaction score
- 415
SDN9876 - I attend Buffalo.
Today Is Ortho Match Day 2003
- Thread starter Yah-E
- Start date
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2003
- Messages
- 376
- Reaction score
- 4
Griffin04 - you will probably almost definitly match next year - did you think of applying to any Canadian schools? I heard most of the University of Western Ontario Ortho residents come from US schools.
Gpr's are great - I wish I would have done one; I have been out almost two years and I think I am just starting to catch up to what some of my friends did in a gpr. I think that it is important to be competent in general dentistry before specializing - a big reason why I wanted to work a few years. I hardly doubt that I will go back to school but if I did I think Ortho is the way to go.
Gpr's are great - I wish I would have done one; I have been out almost two years and I think I am just starting to catch up to what some of my friends did in a gpr. I think that it is important to be competent in general dentistry before specializing - a big reason why I wanted to work a few years. I hardly doubt that I will go back to school but if I did I think Ortho is the way to go.
- Joined
- May 25, 2002
- Messages
- 23
- Reaction score
- 0
For those of you counting acceptances to ortho programs, I would suggest distinguishing between acceptances to real programs and acceptances to Jacksonville (and Colorado will be added to this group--and it looks like perhaps UNLV).
OEC (Orthodontic Education Co.) sponsored programs are not a part of the larger orthodontics community and petitions and lawsuits by the AAO against such programs demonstrate that. They are easier to get into if you don't mind prostituting yourself for a corporation that cares nothing about dentistry/ortho as a profession, only making a buck for the company and investors. I would never consider attending one of these programs. These programs have virtually no academic integrity whatsoever.
OEC (Orthodontic Education Co.) sponsored programs are not a part of the larger orthodontics community and petitions and lawsuits by the AAO against such programs demonstrate that. They are easier to get into if you don't mind prostituting yourself for a corporation that cares nothing about dentistry/ortho as a profession, only making a buck for the company and investors. I would never consider attending one of these programs. These programs have virtually no academic integrity whatsoever.
- Joined
- May 25, 2002
- Messages
- 23
- Reaction score
- 0
I said nothing about whether or not there are other instances of unethical behavior on the part of dental schools. The fact that you made that point would indicate you agree the Jacksonville situation is unethical. The argument that because someone else has done something wrong that this makes it OK for others to also do something wrong is a tough one to defend. Also, I made no comment regarding Jacksonville ortho residents except to imply they are making a poor decision in attending this program. I wasn't speaking to whether or not it is possible to train a decent orthodontist in such a program. I am saying the situation is fundamentally flawed and lacks credibility and integrity. I think it's bad for orthodontics and bad for the future of dentistry as a whole. Jax is a bit of a unique situation in that it is not connected directly to a dental school; but I think the situation in CO is a clear-cut case of academic prostitution with the real pay-off being a free dental building for the school--I am basing this on published comments from the dean of CU's dental school.
In short, what I'm talking about is the way these things are set up, not about whether a graduate of Jax ortho will be a decent orthodontist--whether they are good or bad makes no difference to my argument against establishing orthodontist factories such as this. What's to stop companies from establishing such programs for every area of dentistry including general dentistry? How about an insurance company starting such a venture and working both ends? I think the whole thing is crazy.
In short, what I'm talking about is the way these things are set up, not about whether a graduate of Jax ortho will be a decent orthodontist--whether they are good or bad makes no difference to my argument against establishing orthodontist factories such as this. What's to stop companies from establishing such programs for every area of dentistry including general dentistry? How about an insurance company starting such a venture and working both ends? I think the whole thing is crazy.
- Joined
- May 23, 2002
- Messages
- 457
- Reaction score
- 100
Marmoreus, please take your propoganda to another forum. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what the jacksonville program is doing. It's funny that the opponents of this and the colorado program are upset because it's SO unethical, but have voiced no objection to similar contracts students make with the military, national health servvice, or indian health service. I think you should realize that it is the consumer who will ultimately determine the deliver of health care in this country; apparently there is a need for orthodontic services. It is my understanding that this company will pay for ortho school in return for working a certain amount of years for the company. Sounds like america to me my friend, like it or not companies are already taking over dental offices. (ie. Coast dental). The other side of this issues is dental school funding. The opponents to this program are complaing that this company is giving money to schools in return for an ortho program, but these same opponents offer no money, or opinion as to how dental schools can increase funding. I read the Colorado article and the company is willing to build a $93 million dental school. Is the state of Colorado, alumni, or people like Marmoreus going to give the school $93 million? The answer is No. So we have a problem. I think there is a fundamental flaw to this arguement when you offer no solutions to the problems of dental schools. You should also becareful of who you call a prostitute.
- Joined
- May 25, 2002
- Messages
- 23
- Reaction score
- 0
Firm,
I decided to reply only because I have some time to kill. First, you asked me to post to another forum; which one would you suggest is more appropriate? My understanding was that this forum was meant to be a discussion of issues of interest to those in dental school.
Second, if you think the JU or CU programs are fundamentally the same as military programs, then you obviously don't understand the main issues involved here--maybe I assumed people posting about this issue would know the issues better than you apparently do. If OEC had nothing to do with admissions to the program and they didn't violate specific accreditation standards then I would have no problem with OEC programs and neither would the AAO or the ADA who have both passed resolutions against these programs and who are petitioning the Dept of Education to strike down the PPA status JU was granted this past year.
People who choose to serve their country or fellow citizens in the military or indian health service are involved in something far different from a shady corporate scheme.
If OEC wants to dontate money and scholarships without interfering in the admissions process and without limiting professional opportunities to its residents, then I would be all for it.
Firm, do you know anything about the history of OEC or Dr. Lazzarra or how the whole process works or how OEC makes money off of these deals? My guess is you don't have a clue. You can disagree with someone else's views but don't act like you have it all figured out when you don't have the first idea what's really going on. OEC depends on ignorant people like yourself to be successful.
Who told you we are in dire need of more orthodontists? If anything, we are in dire need of more pediatric dentists and general dentists. Diverting more dentists into orthodontist factories is not going to help the situation.
I can discuss the perceived orthodontist shortage another time if you really want to hear my ideas. Meanwhile, I would suggest we get educated on these changing paradigms in dental education funding and not jump on board with something we may regret later.
Merry Christmas
I decided to reply only because I have some time to kill. First, you asked me to post to another forum; which one would you suggest is more appropriate? My understanding was that this forum was meant to be a discussion of issues of interest to those in dental school.
Second, if you think the JU or CU programs are fundamentally the same as military programs, then you obviously don't understand the main issues involved here--maybe I assumed people posting about this issue would know the issues better than you apparently do. If OEC had nothing to do with admissions to the program and they didn't violate specific accreditation standards then I would have no problem with OEC programs and neither would the AAO or the ADA who have both passed resolutions against these programs and who are petitioning the Dept of Education to strike down the PPA status JU was granted this past year.
People who choose to serve their country or fellow citizens in the military or indian health service are involved in something far different from a shady corporate scheme.
If OEC wants to dontate money and scholarships without interfering in the admissions process and without limiting professional opportunities to its residents, then I would be all for it.
Firm, do you know anything about the history of OEC or Dr. Lazzarra or how the whole process works or how OEC makes money off of these deals? My guess is you don't have a clue. You can disagree with someone else's views but don't act like you have it all figured out when you don't have the first idea what's really going on. OEC depends on ignorant people like yourself to be successful.
Who told you we are in dire need of more orthodontists? If anything, we are in dire need of more pediatric dentists and general dentists. Diverting more dentists into orthodontist factories is not going to help the situation.
I can discuss the perceived orthodontist shortage another time if you really want to hear my ideas. Meanwhile, I would suggest we get educated on these changing paradigms in dental education funding and not jump on board with something we may regret later.
Merry Christmas
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2002
- Messages
- 3,077
- Reaction score
- 415
Whoa, a whole lot of issues.
First, what happens if you don't match? Well, I had been tossing this idea around since mid-October when my classmates were raking in the ortho interviews and I didn't have quite as many. I applied to 5 GPR/AEGD programs at the same time as I sent my application to PASS for ortho. I added a 6th GPR program later based on a recommendation about that program. I got interviews at all of them, but turned down the 3 for the west coast and went to the 3 in NYC. I've been on all my interviews now and submitted my match list for phase II.
The other option if you don't match is to work. I intend to reapply next year and I'd really like to attend either an east coast or west coast program. I figured my best bet would be to do a GPR on the east coast so I could get to know more practitioners in an area where I know zero dentists. I told all 3 interviews that I didn't match into ortho this year and that I would reapply in the future. I don't know if that was good or bad, but I'm sick of all the lying bs and hiding the truth to give them "what they want to hear." Two of the programs seemed fine with it. The third one gave me a hard time about it. They asked "Why did you apply? How did you know you wanted to do ortho if you don't do any ortho in dental school?" I gave them a polite answer, but I really wanted to say "Why don't you ask the 150 students who just matched last week straight out of dental school how they knew? Why pick on me?"
On my GPR interviews, I met a number of residents who had done GPRs and matched into ortho at programs I want to attend, so I think doing the GPR can only help me next year (well, that's what I'll keep telling myself). If anything, at least I'll have a real good answer to the "Why ortho?" questions b/c I will be able to say "Well, I've actually done some at my GPR so therefore I am totally justified in saying that I like it." When looking for a GPR, there are programs that do zero ortho - I didn't think it would be a good idea to attend one of those. Apparently, the ones that do ortho cases are not that commong, but they treat cases at all three of my programs, now if I can only match into one of them! I also didn't apply to any VA programs b/c I don't want to go to a program where they don't see any kids.
Second, I don't think the Jacksonville Ortho program is being perceived very highly by the orthodontic community. I was asked if I applied to the program at some interviews and I heard a lot of people's opinions about JU (mostly negative) b/c I interviewed at a program with a similar sounding name and had to clarify a number of times that my interview wasn't with Jacksonville. My preliminary feeling is it's not a good idea, but I don't know enough about the orthdontic education community to have a real opinion. I don't want to spend time in either Jacksonville or Denver and I want to attend a program that is accredited to avoid future problems, so I am not considering them.
First, what happens if you don't match? Well, I had been tossing this idea around since mid-October when my classmates were raking in the ortho interviews and I didn't have quite as many. I applied to 5 GPR/AEGD programs at the same time as I sent my application to PASS for ortho. I added a 6th GPR program later based on a recommendation about that program. I got interviews at all of them, but turned down the 3 for the west coast and went to the 3 in NYC. I've been on all my interviews now and submitted my match list for phase II.
The other option if you don't match is to work. I intend to reapply next year and I'd really like to attend either an east coast or west coast program. I figured my best bet would be to do a GPR on the east coast so I could get to know more practitioners in an area where I know zero dentists. I told all 3 interviews that I didn't match into ortho this year and that I would reapply in the future. I don't know if that was good or bad, but I'm sick of all the lying bs and hiding the truth to give them "what they want to hear." Two of the programs seemed fine with it. The third one gave me a hard time about it. They asked "Why did you apply? How did you know you wanted to do ortho if you don't do any ortho in dental school?" I gave them a polite answer, but I really wanted to say "Why don't you ask the 150 students who just matched last week straight out of dental school how they knew? Why pick on me?"
On my GPR interviews, I met a number of residents who had done GPRs and matched into ortho at programs I want to attend, so I think doing the GPR can only help me next year (well, that's what I'll keep telling myself). If anything, at least I'll have a real good answer to the "Why ortho?" questions b/c I will be able to say "Well, I've actually done some at my GPR so therefore I am totally justified in saying that I like it." When looking for a GPR, there are programs that do zero ortho - I didn't think it would be a good idea to attend one of those. Apparently, the ones that do ortho cases are not that commong, but they treat cases at all three of my programs, now if I can only match into one of them! I also didn't apply to any VA programs b/c I don't want to go to a program where they don't see any kids.
Second, I don't think the Jacksonville Ortho program is being perceived very highly by the orthodontic community. I was asked if I applied to the program at some interviews and I heard a lot of people's opinions about JU (mostly negative) b/c I interviewed at a program with a similar sounding name and had to clarify a number of times that my interview wasn't with Jacksonville. My preliminary feeling is it's not a good idea, but I don't know enough about the orthdontic education community to have a real opinion. I don't want to spend time in either Jacksonville or Denver and I want to attend a program that is accredited to avoid future problems, so I am not considering them.
They asked "Why did you apply? How did you know you wanted to do ortho if you don't do any ortho in dental school?" I gave them a polite answer, but I really wanted to say "Why don't you ask the 150 students who just matched last week straight out of dental school how they knew? Why pick on me?"
Just curious, what answer did you give them? Was it an honest answer?
Just curious, what answer did you give them? Was it an honest answer?
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2003
- Messages
- 293
- Reaction score
- 1
Marm,
I am actually vey interested in this topic as I am contemplating ortho and havent heard of these programs. So we dont piss the people interested specifically about ortho admissions, just start another thread about it, and Im sure a lot of people that might have some additional insight into it will post.
I am actually vey interested in this topic as I am contemplating ortho and havent heard of these programs. So we dont piss the people interested specifically about ortho admissions, just start another thread about it, and Im sure a lot of people that might have some additional insight into it will post.
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2002
- Messages
- 3,077
- Reaction score
- 415
I told them since my school doesn't give any real ortho experience, I went out and got my own - my letters of rec. reflected this, so I wasn't making any of it up. And I want to work with kids, I'm more at their level and I think my personality suits me for it. I really gave all the specialties a chance once we started clinic (especially pedo) before coming to my decision. scandalouslj has expressed as a first year student he is interested in ortho - how can a first year know without ever stepping foot in clinic? It doesn't matter what you tell them though, b/c ortho takes tons of its students straight out of dental school as opposed to endo which is more likely to take the applicant with GPR/private practice experience in doing 100s of endo over the senior dental student who has done, at most 20 root canals. I met students who told me they knew before dental school that they wantd ortho - I wonder, do you tell the committee that? Do they pick on you then, or is that the "right answer?" Maybe I'll try that one next year. There are plenty of people with tons of arrogance and little personality who get in. These would be the some of the current residents & even practitioners I've met who really made me wonder....
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2002
- Messages
- 3,077
- Reaction score
- 415
From what ASDA told me when I bought the guides, they update them every two years. You should e-mail them to be sure.
They really should update those books. With GME practically gone and more programs moving toward the 3 years masters, almost everything in my book is useless and incorrect, except maybe the name of the program.
They really should update those books. With GME practically gone and more programs moving toward the 3 years masters, almost everything in my book is useless and incorrect, except maybe the name of the program.
- Joined
- May 23, 2002
- Messages
- 457
- Reaction score
- 100
A friend of mine applied to Univ of Detroit Ortho, and was using the address in the ASDA guidebook. It turns out later that the school has actually moved! He had to send his stuff again. UD ended up cashing both application checks though. 
