Too late?

[TMS@1987]

Hello all,

I haven’t posted on here in a long time, but I had a question on whether or not it was too late for me to go back for my PhD in clinical psychology.

I am an LCSW with 9 years of experience working in hospice and outpatient mental health. I love what I do, but I’m considering going back for a PhD in clinical psychology due to the advantages it offers in salary, teaching opportunities, assessments, etc.

My concern is that I am working full time as a psychotherapist and I just bought a house. I will be living alone so I am the sole income. I don’t know what PhD programs tend to offer in terms of stipends and financial assistance. Is it even possible for me to go back for my PhD and continue to pay my bills? Is it too late?
Thanks in advance to anyone who replies.

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[Justanothergrad]

Hello all,

I haven’t posted on here in a long time, but I had a question on whether or not it was too late for me to go back for my PhD in clinical psychology.

I am an LCSW with 9 years of experience working in hospice and outpatient mental health. I love what I do, but I’m considering going back for a PhD in clinical psychology due to the advantages it offers in salary, teaching opportunities, assessments, etc.

My concern is that I am working full time as a psychotherapist and I just bought a house. I will be living alone so I am the sole income. I don’t know what PhD programs tend to offer in terms of stipends and financial assistance. Is it even possible for me to go back for my PhD and continue to pay my bills? Is it too late?
Thanks in advance to anyone who replies.

Going back would likely require you to move. Programs are full time multi year commitments (5+), and may (often) require moving again for internship at the end. It is unlikely that you would be able to attend a competitive and funded program without doing so as well. Stipends are not high, so even if you did secure a position 5 minutes from your home it would likely not pay a mortgage or keep you in the same level of economic freedom you have now. You may also struggle to be competitive at some schools without research products or experience. It's not too late, but you will have to make some hard choices if you opt to pursue it in my view.

 

[Sanman]

What is it you want to do with a PhD exactly?

 

[WisNeuro]

The house thing could be an issue, but you could also turn it into a rental. I was a landlord in grad school and beyond. Some added complexity, but depending on area and income potential, could be a good passive income thing, but I wouldn't necessarily count on that. Safe bet is to plan on breaking even.

 

[summerbabe]

I don’t know what PhD programs tend to offer in terms of stipends and financial assistance.

My PhD program in a super low cost of living area provided full tuition waivers for every semester (including summers), paid half of my grad student health insurance premium, and about $750 each month.

Some funded programs may also not offer or can only offer summer funding to select students and unplanned budget deficits can always happen and impact funding status.

If you've been focused on work during the past decade, it'll also likely take some significant effort in the area of research to become competitive for these programs. Good luck if you pursue this.

 

[ccpsych16]

Hello all,

I haven’t posted on here in a long time, but I had a question on whether or not it was too late for me to go back for my PhD in clinical psychology.

I am an LCSW with 9 years of experience working in hospice and outpatient mental health. I love what I do, but I’m considering going back for a PhD in clinical psychology due to the advantages it offers in salary, teaching opportunities, assessments, etc.

My concern is that I am working full time as a psychotherapist and I just bought a house. I will be living alone so I am the sole income. I don’t know what PhD programs tend to offer in terms of stipends and financial assistance. Is it even possible for me to go back for my PhD and continue to pay my bills? Is it too late?
Thanks in advance to anyone who replies.

I see that you mention assessments as part of why you’d want to pursue clinical psychology, but I’m curious as to what made you decide on psychology instead of a social work PhD or DSW. Even though you already have the terminal licensed degree in your field, it seems like a social work doctoral program may value your significant work experience more than a psychology PhD without a ton of research/publications. You could also explore adjunct positions at location universities or community colleges (especially CCs, they’re a great way for a master’s level person to gain experience) and work your way up from there if you’d like to do both teaching and practice. Good luck with whatever you choose!

 

[PsyDr]

This is a almost a simple opportunity cost calculation, but not really. Let’s say your annual income is $70k, and that you complete a psychology PhD in 5 years, unpaid internship, get licensed at year 6, incurred no student loan debt, can rent out your house to cover all those expenses, and make the higher side of psychologist income at $100k.

If you’re loose with the definitions, the cost of becoming a psychologist is about $350k. The increased income would place the break even point at 12 years after entering professional practice.

Except it gets even more complicated. You also have to take retirement contributions into account. Let’s say that right now, starting with zero, you’re putting $10k/yr aside for retirement, and on average over 30 years your returns are the usual 10% return, less 3% inflation, for a 7% growth. That means you’re also losing $77k, over that 5 years. Which would take more time to catch up on. Let’s say you lived lean, so you could do it over 3 years, living on your old lifestyle.

TL; DR: about $425k in basic opportunity cost. Would take about 15 years after starting clinical psych practice to see a lifestyle improvement.

Or just use an online calculator and don’t listen to me.

 

[TMS@1987]

I see that you mention assessments as part of why you’d want to pursue clinical psychology, but I’m curious as to what made you decide on psychology instead of a social work PhD or DSW. Even though you already have the terminal licensed degree in your field, it seems like a social work doctoral program may value your significant work experience more than a psychology PhD without a ton of research/publications. You could also explore adjunct positions at location universities or community colleges (especially CCs, they’re a great way for a master’s level person to gain experience) and work your way up from there if you’d like to do both teaching and practice. Good luck with whatever you choose!

I suppose the reason I was thinking to pursue the clinical psychology PhD program as opposed to social work would be for the added clinical benefits in addition to academic career opportunities, like increased reimbursement and the ability to conduct assessments and testing. However, I am also thinking about doing the PhD in social work as well. My state, Massachusetts, has a number of really good social work PhD programs.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

However, I am also thinking about doing the PhD in social work as well.

So, why? You haven't mentioned the reason for doing this.

My state, Massachusetts, has a number of really good social work PhD programs.

Says who? How do you know what is good or not? I know nothing about DSW programs but I imagine any "good" program would be research-focused. Also, why does your profile say New Jersey?

Finally, you could definitely go back to doctoral training. But, make sure you are doing it for the right reasons. For a funded clinical PhD in MA, you are aiming high. There are some large-cohort, high-debt, poorly-perceived PsyD programs in MA but most people on this board (including me) don't recommend this route. The time and money you would loss for doctoral training could be redirected toward your current career. And, as mentioned before, the doctoral psychology route is even tougher if you are geographically restricted. Not sure if you noticed other threads, but there are programs across the country that have over 700 applicants for ~5 spots.

 

[TMS@1987]

So, why? You haven't mentioned the reason for doing this.


Says who? How do you know what is good or not? I know nothing about DSW programs but I imagine any "good" program would be research-focused. Also, why does your profile say New Jersey?

Finally, you could definitely go back to doctoral training. But, make sure you are doing it for the right reasons. For a funded clinical PhD in MA, you are aiming high. There are some large-cohort, high-debt, poorly-perceived PsyD programs in MA but most people on this board (including me) don't recommend this route. The time and money you would loss for doctoral training could be redirected toward your current career. And, as mentioned before, the doctoral psychology route is even tougher if you are geographically restricted. Not sure if you noticed other threads, but there are programs across the country that have over 700 applicants for ~5 spots.

I want a PhD so I can pursue full time, tenured track teaching and research positions. The programs I’m referring to tend to be ranked highly among social work or clinical psychology PhD programs, focus on research, and offer partial or complete funding. I am not considering PsyD programs. My profile says NJ because I was living in NJ when I created it and I just haven’t changed it yet. I just logged back into this profile after several years away.

 

[PsyDr]

My state, Massachusetts, has a number of really good....

 

[TMS@1987]

View attachment 325145

Why do you say that?

 

[VirginiaIsForLovers]

Is it too late, no. I think there are plenty of quality PhD programs in Clinical/Counseling Psychology in MA. I do agree that I am not sure if there is much financial benefit to pursuing a PhD in Psych versus a PhD in Social Work or DSW. If you really want to pursue psych testing, then a PhD in psych makes sense, but it's not the only route whether it be psych or SW to make more income. I believe BC and BU are very reputable doctorate programs for SW. Please don't feel obligated to explain why your profile says NJ while you live in MA, not sure if that has anything to do with your original questions.

 

[psych.meout]

I want a PhD so I can pursue full time, tenured track teaching and research positions. The programs I’m referring to tend to be ranked highly among social work or clinical psychology PhD programs, focus on research, and offer partial or complete funding. I am not considering PsyD programs. My profile says NJ because I was living in NJ when I created it and I just haven’t changed it yet. I just logged back into this profile after several years away.

Do you have any research experience? This isn't just to be competitive for PhD programs, but also to really know that you want to have an academic career. I've seen many undergrads and people who have no research experience who think they want to be researchers until they actually do it for themselves.

 

[Lukewarm Counselor]

I want a PhD so I can pursue full time, tenured track teaching and research positions.

This enters extremely competitive territory here. As others noted, you will almost certainly need lots of research experience and publications to reach this goal. This is not to say it is not a possibility. But just know what you are realistically looking at here.

I also noted you mentioned training in assessments as another reason. Have you considered the CACREP Ph.D. in Counselor Education and Supervision (CES) programs? While this degree generally will not gain a clinician a higher reimbursement rate, it does usually provide more depth in assessment training. Most programs have their own areas of emphasis, so this will vary. But being a Ph.D. track, it will provide you better training and experience on the research side which may open more doors on the teaching side down the road. I believe most CES programs have a built-in teaching component as a default requirement, as well.

That said, it may limit you a bit at the graduate level to teaching aspiring counselors. But I imagine it would still allow a person a broader range of teaching opportunities at the undergraduate level (psychology and education[?]). I am not trying to sell you on this degree path. But you might explore it and see if it might lead to some of your stated goals. Again, it can check the boxes for teaching and for assessment (depending on the specific program). More, these programs are usually considerably less competitive for admissions than most clinical psych programs. Many state universities now offer the CES degree, keeping costs lower still, and present fewer relocation demands compared with clinical psych programs. I know a woman that got her CES degree and she is really pleased with it as it met her desired goals, which were very similar to yours. (She was also MSW to CES path.)

If you explore the CES as an option, I strongly advise you to especially research whether the program will lead to the specific training in the area(s) of assessment that you desire. I lack the knowledge to say for certain, but I have to imagine that even the best CES programs will not qualify a practitioner in assessments anywhere near the same as clinical psych programs. But depending on your specific goals, it may still be adequate. Only you are qualified to make this determination.

Anyhow, there are multiple options these days to reach your stated goals. Best of luck to you on this journey!

 

[Mercury in Taurus]

Hello all,

I haven’t posted on here in a long time, but I had a question on whether or not it was too late for me to go back for my PhD in clinical psychology.

I am an LCSW with 9 years of experience working in hospice and outpatient mental health. I love what I do, but I’m considering going back for a PhD in clinical psychology due to the advantages it offers in salary, teaching opportunities, assessments, etc.

My concern is that I am working full time as a psychotherapist and I just bought a house. I will be living alone so I am the sole income. I don’t know what PhD programs tend to offer in terms of stipends and financial assistance. Is it even possible for me to go back for my PhD and continue to pay my bills? Is it too late?
Thanks in advance to anyone who replies.

It is never too late...

 

[singasongofjoy]

This is a almost a simple opportunity cost calculation, but not really. Let’s say your annual income is $70k, and that you complete a psychology PhD in 5 years, unpaid internship, get licensed at year 6, incurred no student loan debt, can rent out your house to cover all those expenses, and make the higher side of psychologist income at $100k.

If you’re loose with the definitions, the cost of becoming a psychologist is about $350k. The increased income would place the break even point at 12 years after entering professional practice.

Except it gets even more complicated. You also have to take retirement contributions into account. Let’s say that right now, starting with zero, you’re putting $10k/yr aside for retirement, and on average over 30 years your returns are the usual 10% return, less 3% inflation, for a 7% growth. That means you’re also losing $77k, over that 5 years. Which would take more time to catch up on. Let’s say you lived lean, so you could do it over 3 years, living on your old lifestyle.

TL; DR: about $425k in basic opportunity cost. Would take about 15 years after starting clinical psych practice to see a lifestyle improvement.

Or just use an online calculator and don’t listen to me.

Just want to drop a line to say I really appreciate you and the few others who lay out the numbers. I don't tend to naturally think that way / consider all the relevant details but I've noticed my thinking about such things shifting recently - thinking to calculate in details I otherwise wouldn't have thought of - and I attribute it to SDN threads. So - thank you, wise ones

 

[PsyDr]

Just want to drop a line to say I really appreciate you and the few others who lay out the numbers. I don't tend to naturally think that way / consider all the relevant details but I've noticed my thinking about such things shifting recently - thinking to calculate in details I otherwise wouldn't have thought of - and I attribute it to SDN threads. So - thank you, wise ones

We appreciate it. But you should be angry that the profession allows such exploitation to take place despite professional ethics; not thankful that someone is pointing out the rust you’re being exploited.

Your generation will fix this problem, not mine.

 

[WisNeuro]

We appreciate it. But you should be angry that the profession allows such exploitation to take place despite professional ethics; not thankful that someone is pointing out the rust you’re being exploited.

Your generation will fix this problem, not mine.

While regrettable, I don't think our profession is unique in this problem. To me, it's more of a faulty societal mindset than an organizational failure.

 

[PsyDr]

While regrettable, I don't think our profession is unique in this problem. To me, it's more of a faulty societal mindset than an organizational failure.

Highly disagree.

1) Ethical code 3.08 prohibits financially exploitative relationships. APA program approval requires adherence to the ethical code. APA requires the program report data. And yet we still see programs with crazy tuition that are APA approved. That is an organizational failure.

2) What would happen if APA applied 3.08 to programs with exploitative high tuitions? What about applying it to all faculty who associate with that program? Pretty hard to have a school if faculty are afraid to teach there.

3) I've been pretty curious to see what would happen if some ECP filed an ethical complaints and/or board complaint against a psychologist employer who want to take an exploitative percentage.


edit: I know this sounds zealous. But it only sounds that way because everyone is so used to the "in your face" thievery. It would take someone with gonads of some hardened metal to take this on. Without enforcement, the system is only limited by "how much can I steal", not "what are the consequences if I steal?"

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Highly disagree.

1) Ethical code 3.08 prohibits financially exploitative relationships. APA program approval requires adherence to the ethical code. APA requires the program report data. And yet we still see programs with crazy tuition that are APA approved. That is an organizational failure.

2) What would happen if APA applied 3.08 to programs with exploitative high tuitions? What about applying it to all faculty who associate with that program? Pretty hard to have a school if faculty are afraid to teach there.

3) I've been pretty curious to see what would happen if some ECP filed an ethical complaints and/or board complaint against a psychologist employer who want to take an exploitative percentage.


edit: I know this sounds zealous. But it only sounds that way because everyone is so used to the "in your face" thievery. It would take someone with gonads of some hardened metal to take this on. Without enforcement, the system is only limited by "how much can I steal", not "what are the consequences if I steal?"

I do wonder how some programs justify their tuition rates, although I suspect it involves some creative accounting (especially those still somehow classified as non-profit). I also don't know off-hand if (all) programs actually need to justify their tuition when applying for APA accreditation, although I definitely think they should; internship sites are essentially required to indicate why/how their offered pay for the intern year isn't exploitative.

 

[WisNeuro]

Highly disagree.

1) Ethical code 3.08 prohibits financially exploitative relationships. APA program approval requires adherence to the ethical code. APA requires the program report data. And yet we still see programs with crazy tuition that are APA approved. That is an organizational failure.

2) What would happen if APA applied 3.08 to programs with exploitative high tuitions? What about applying it to all faculty who associate with that program? Pretty hard to have a school if faculty are afraid to teach there.

3) I've been pretty curious to see what would happen if some ECP filed an ethical complaints and/or board complaint against a psychologist employer who want to take an exploitative percentage.


edit: I know this sounds zealous. But it only sounds that way because everyone is so used to the "in your face" thievery. It would take someone with gonads of some hardened metal to take this on. Without enforcement, the system is only limited by "how much can I steal", not "what are the consequences if I steal?"

1) Financial exploitation is a highly subjective issue. I think there are clear cases, but most fall in some murky grey area. If anything, this code is more of an aspirational ideal.

2) They could apply it, I'd be curious what objective values they would apply that wouldn't force a lawsuit.

3) I would also be very curious to see that.

Not saying I like it, but it's a tough issue that is more related to who we are as a society than an organization. One is merely a reflection of the other.

 

[PsyDr]

1) Financial exploitation is a highly subjective issue. I think there are clear cases, but most fall in some murky grey area. If anything, this code is more of an aspirational ideal.

2) They could apply it, I'd be curious what objective values they would apply that wouldn't force a lawsuit.

3) I would also be very curious to see that.

Not saying I like it, but it's a tough issue that is more related to who we are as a society than an organization. One is merely a reflection of the other.

1) Disagree. Federal and state case law have repeatedly defined financial exploitation. APA ethics CEs have also repeatedly defined financial exploitation.
2) Federal legal standards.

 

[WisNeuro]

1) Disagree. Federal and state case law have repeatedly defined financial exploitation. APA ethics CEs have also repeatedly defined financial exploitation.
2) Federal legal standards.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Though I'm sure we'd both agree that we'd love to see someone take this to court to change the reality of what's going on.

 

[singasongofjoy]

More broadly, though, I think a class - like a full semester (maybe combined with civics? or econ? I am not sure whether my small school even had an econ class) should be required to graduate high school. I certainly never heard about opportunity cost, sunk cost fallacy, accounting for returns and inflation, retirement planning, how to seek info to judge whether your salary is fair compared to the market and cost of living in your area. Well, maybe inflation and returns in some math class word problems, but not in a real context. I mean I think I got way too far into adulthood just sort-of calculating a budget based on income, fixed costs, and... whatever a word is for not-fixed cost (brain is not the sharpest at the moment), and being able to roughly calculate tax. Thank god my MBA/econ major partner managed the finances through grad school - otherwise I'd be so late to the retirement savings game I'd probably never be able to retire. Glad I wised up a little bit over the years- which was def not from discussing finances with partner at late o'clock in the evening.

 

[thebalmofhurtminds]

More broadly, though, I think a class - like a full semester (maybe combined with civics? or econ? I am not sure whether my small school even had an econ class) should be required to graduate high school. I certainly never heard about opportunity cost, sunk cost fallacy, accounting for returns and inflation, retirement planning, how to seek info to judge whether your salary is fair compared to the market and cost of living in your area. Well, maybe inflation and returns in some math class word problems, but not in a real context. I mean I think I got way too far into adulthood just sort-of calculating a budget based on income, fixed costs, and... whatever a word is for not-fixed cost (brain is not the sharpest at the moment), and being able to roughly calculate tax. Thank god my MBA/econ major partner managed the finances through grad school - otherwise I'd be so late to the retirement savings game I'd probably never be able to retire. Glad I wised up a little bit over the years- which was def not from discussing finances with partner at late o'clock in the evening.

We did actually have one of those! We learned to budget, basics of economics, etc. I have a terrible memory, so had to look things up on my own once I was an adult anyway, but it was a good resource.