too old to cut?

[cromagnon]

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hello....I have a question regarding age vs. residency, I know there was already a thread on this subject but I am still somewhat unclear...

Anyways...after serving my time as a naval officer I have decided to finally go to medical school. If everything tracks out as I am planning I will be 36 when I graduate. I am specifically interested in either neurosurgery or congenital heart surgery. These are obviously extremely competitive and lengthy programs and it would seem to me that my age would be a strike against me. If anyone can sort me out so I can stop obsessing over this I would be very grateful. Thanks..........

 

[Foxxy Cleopatra]

I don't think it would be too much of a hinderance. 2 of the guys who are new neurosurgery interns in my program are in their mid-thirties, and a good friend of mine (at another institution) is in NS residency- he graduated med school at age 32.

You're not too old 😀

 

[Idiopathic]

I am planning almost the exact same thing...although i am a 30-year old second year (so i will be 32 when i graduate). i also would like to pursue NS or congenital CTS. Even after residency, i expect to have 20+ solid years of surgery, and I think you should expect the same, i know of plenty of guys doing high-caliber work well into their 60's

 

[OldManDave]

I will grant you that this is the exception & not the rule, but I have a personal friend who is beginning her second year in surgery @ UVA who is in her early 50s. I can guarantee you that she works circles around her younger colleagues! Like I said, this person is excpetional - but it goes to show that all things are possible if you want them badly enough, are capable of doing the work well, willing to make the requisite sacrifices and network with the right people.

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

Originally posted by OldManDave
I will grant you that this is the exception & not the rule, but I have a personal friend who is beginning her second year in surgery @ UVA who is in her early 50s. I can guarantee you that she works circles around her younger colleagues! Like I said, this person is excpetional - but it goes to show that all things are possible if you want them badly enough, are capable of doing the work well, willing to make the requisite sacrifices and network with the right people.

Yes, but the question is whether you want to actually be in your 50s and still be a surgical resident? What kind of life is it to still be only a resident when most surgeons that age are already well-stablished in their field as attendings or chiefs of departments? If she's in her early 50s and a PGY2, and UVa is supposedly a 7-year program, then she's go 6 years to go...meaning she'll be pushing 60 by the time she just gets out of residency. I know it is not PC to say it, but everything has a limit and this lady is taking up a spot from a much younger person who can have many more productive years as a surgeon than her.

 

[DrDre']

I have been following your threads for a while. I am amazed at the severity of your views. You are definitely black and white about everything. Although she may not have the longevity of some of her younger peers, I bet she will be a fantastic surgeon that patients love and respect. Her life experience will be a great asset. Her career may still end up being longer than yours, also.
I assume you are young or at least "non-traditional" but I see you either burning out since you are such a misanthrope or being lynched by a peer or a co-worker. Your moniker is definitely not an understatement. You will make evil surgical attendings happy that someone spawned a replacement.

On a less opinionated note, I was under the impression there were plenty of gsurg spots in the country. Its not an ntegrated plastics spot that has been stolen from those that "truly deserve" it...

 

[maxheadroom]

A woman's risk of breast and ovarian cancer is a strike against her as an older surgical resident?? Are you INSANE?? Does ANYONE look at an older med student/resident and think, "Gosh, Sue's really good at surgery. Too bad she's at a higher risk for breast and ovarian cancer. Otherwise, we'd take her in a second."

The only factor that I've heard faculty discuss about older applicants is the question of whether or not they can hang with their younger, more energetic colleagues. The concensus is that, while the older residents might not tolerate longer shifts as well, that their determination to reach a goal is usually stronger than the younger residents demonstrate.

 

[md03]

OK kids, calm down. Unless you have some obvious physical limitiations, age is not a problem.

I'm 42, female, PGY 1 surgery. I went on 14 interviews (had to turn down a couple due to time pressures). Age was never brought up as an issue during any of the interviews. Maybe 3 times on the interview trail, a resident interviewing me ran out of questions to ask and threw in the token "how do you feel about taking orders from people younger than you?" My response was always along the lines of "If I had a problem with that, I would not be doing this"

It won't be an issue unless you make it an issue. Don't express any reservations about your ability to hang. By the time you get to interviews, you'll already had a chance to test the waters some, so you will know what it will take to hang.

I'm very happy so far with my program, and have been readily accepted. Ironically, I came from a rather malignant place for school and was accustomed to taking q2 call with a once a week post call clinic. Most of my fellow PGY 1 here come from cushier schools and have never taken overnight call! The 80 hour work weeks seems like a cakewalk to me and since I must go home post call, even the call seems light. (don't get me wrong, I still get tired, but nothing I can't handle. And if it's slow on call, I'm more likely to try to nap than my younger counterparts)

You must decide if you WANT to be a surgery resident at whatever age you will be. Then just don't make an issue of it. During my interviews, I most often found that the interviewers thought having some real world experience was an advantage.

While you are in school, study hard, get the best grades and board scores you can. Your maturity will serve you well on the wards (you will likely demostrate a better work ethic and sense of responsibility to your patients than many of the youger crowd and will study harder), which will increase the likelihood of great evaluations and great letters. And take some time to get or stay in shape. That will be a plus! The fitter you are, the eaiser residency will be.

Any place that makes age an issue is likely to be a place you wont want to rank highly anyway. Unless you have a real trailblazer spirit.

 

[Foxxy Cleopatra]

This is funny! The breast/ovarian cancer idea certainly is unique. Though health problems (in general) come with age and would think that men could equally be seen as a heart attack/ cancer risk.

As cliche as this is, there are no guarantees in life, and while it is arguable that an older candidate has less years to contribute to the medical specialty in general, what about those young people who drop out? Or worse, those who encounter an unexpected illness or even death?

To the OP, I still say go for it- many places don't discriminate due to age, and those who do, it's their loss.

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

Originally posted by DrDre'
I have been following your threads for a while. I am amazed at the severity of your views. You are definitely black and white about everything. Although she may not have the longevity of some of her younger peers, I bet she will be a fantastic surgeon that patients love and respect. Her life experience will be a great asset. Her career may still end up being longer than yours, also.
I assume you are young or at least "non-traditional" but I see you either burning out since you are such a misanthrope or being lynched by a peer or a co-worker. Your moniker is definitely not an understatement. You will make evil surgical attendings happy that someone spawned a replacement.

Calm down with the personal attacks. Why are you calling me a misanthrope for no reason? We can't just be in denial and pretend being 60 years old and just finishing surgical residency is all fine and dandy just to maintain the facade of being PC. And I think we've worn out the token "life experience" excuse for all it's worth.

 

[DrDre']

My apologies. Misanthrope was harsh and not exactly correct. I should have stuck with a safer term, such as "arrogant surgeon". Despite the fact I am currently defending "life experience" at this ime, I myself am sometimes annoyed by that argument. On the other hand, I (as you may have guessed) am older. Like many pre-meds, ms and residents, I have many friends that are attendings and private MDs. All of them have stated how significant life experience prior to med training is a great asset and they all wished they had more before matriculation
This is all immaterial afterall. There are plenty of spots for this energetic woman. She is robbing no one of training. If her RD felt she deserved a spot more than some one else, we should accept that. Would you want to be refused a spot because you were too young (in an individual PD's eyes), for example?

Apologies again for the personal attack, AS.

 

[Surgery2Do]

I am a 37 year old divorced female with 2 children ages 18 and 10. Before med school I was an RN and I love surgery.

I also wonder if I am getting to old to do want I know would suit me best.

I will be applying for the 2004 match and I am still considering Surgery.

 

[Skylizard]

Originally posted by ArrogantSurgeon
...I know it is not PC to say it, but everything has a limit and this lady is taking up a spot from a much younger person who can have many more productive years as a surgeon than her.

Well, it is all about the math. I think your comment is interesting coming from someone proposing in other threads...a part-time career in academic surgery doing less then 8 cases per month. I suspect a high output full time surgeon starting after age 50 would ultimately perform more cases then a part time surgeon doing less then 8 cases per month and likely planning on early retirement to "put their family first". I will also say, your statement has been used in a similar fashion to justify why some feel women shouldn't be surgeons. The arguement has been that female surgeons will take too much time off to have babies and raise families and ultimately not "complete a full career". If she can get into surgery and training after fifty that's fine. The only real question is about skill and competence. I know some that should have stopped operating by age 35, some by age fifty and some that operate exceptionally into their 70s.