Bump.....not for anything other than my personal entertainment.
All ten of those are top five programs
Interested in NYC programs (NYU, Cornell, Sinai, Columbia, Einstein). Where do they stand currently (pretty outdated thread) amongst each other and nationally?
Yes I am a student and have rotated quite a bit at both institutions. The hopkins residents I have come into contact with were clinically much weaker than the majority of the Maryland residents... Many are extremely arrogant and entitled. Not to mention I met hopkins med students who very honestly said "I go to Hopkins, so i dont feel the need to work hard... ill get into any residency I want" Certainly this isn't everyone...but I was surprised how many people i interacted with who fit this mold to a T. It's made me realize that while Hopkins is a huge name, you cannot extrapolate greatness just from a name.
Not at all surprising to me. There are many medical students who based on their medical school institution truly believe that they are entitled to any residency & fellowship program they want. It's instilled in them from MS-1 and on.
Interested in NYC programs (NYU, Cornell, Sinai, Columbia, Einstein). Where do they stand currently (pretty outdated thread) amongst each other and nationally?
I am very interested in academic programs that balance world-class basic science research and top-notch surgical training.
It seems like many of these lists are bases on name and location when they should be based on things like board pass rates, diversity of complex cases while mainting a large volume of general surgery, quality of hospital/program, and quality of attending/residents, and most importantly if the residents are happy.
Of note, I also demand a tireless commitment to good parking, and a world-class salad bar in the doctor's dining room. Perhaps the topics of emphasis have changed since starting practice, but my adjectives remain the same.
It seems like many of these lists are bases on name and location when they should be based on things like board pass rates, diversity of complex cases while mainting a large volume of general surgery, quality of hospital/program, and quality of attending/residents, and most importantly if the residents are happy. I would a say list of top programs should include:
MGH
BWH
Southwestern
Mayo (MN)
Michigan
Hopkins
Wash U
Duke (low pass rate/tough environment)
Vanderbilt
Baylor Dallas (best community program)
Carolina's (best community program)
Northwestern (best Chicago program)
*I didn't include west coast programs just because I am not as familiar with them.
Measuring applicants to slots is a weak standard - in the era of electronic common applications everyone gets an absurd number of applicants. We got ~1000 applications so are we 40% better than Cedars Sinai?
Certainly
UL is certainly facing a lot of challenges right now, including the medical school being placed on probation by the LCME due to 'inadequate facilities' to support the incoming class of 2018, though the specific concerns of the LCME were being already being addressed long before being placed on probation. The school is undergoing a massive overhaul of its undergraduate medical campus and expects to be quickly taken off probation. From what I've heard, a lot of schools are coming up for accrediting and the LCME will be looking long and hard at each program from here on out. I expect many schools that have never faced probation before could certainly be looking at it now.
That said, the new Dean that took over last summer has a tremendous outlook and vision for the future, not only at the medical student level, but also at the resident/fellowship/departmental level. Our plastics division and CV department are top notch in terms of research and outcomes and still churn out fantastic surgeons. The CV department chair, Mark Slaughter, has made great headway into acquiring new research dollars in mechanical circulatory support devices and animal models. As far as I'm aware, the Kuntz and Kleinert hand and micro fellowship is still one of the most sought after in the world.
Losing visionaries and leaders is never easy for an institution. I think our former Dean (who is now at Duke) had a huge role in the downfall of a lot of things here, both at the undergraduate medical education side and driving away innovators and future leaders.
Quick: who's gonna' turn down a categorical spot at UCLA? Big community programs in large metros like Cedars, Baylor U, Washington Center, etc. are not bound by instate quotas, and therefore receive huge numbers of applicants, welcomed assuredly by their PD's. And program leadership does matter, but it's rare that a "program falls off the map". Oh wait, ten years of Julie and Pam at Hopkins... (Hopkins hired a pretty boy from Mayo Scottsdale as interim chief, it will be interesting if he gets the top spot.) If you want Louisville off, I'll add Emory.
UofL is not particularly well known as a CT Surgery training center. I do believe they even shut down their residency program for a few years there...
I think you may be referring to the University hospital giving up hosting its CT service to another of our affiliate hospitals, Jewish, in the 1990s. UL CT surgeons, Drs. Laman Gray and Rob Dowling, performed the first AbioCor total artificial heart surgery at Jewish in the mid-2000s. Since then they've opened the Cardiovascular Research Institute (http://cv2i.org/) along with Roberto Bolli in Cardiology. There is a strong commitment to CV basic science and clinical research here. But, this is a general surgery thread and the CT guys are a totally different department.
Would you mind posting your CT Top 10? Or can I pm you with specific questions?
I'm talking about closing the training program. I know in the last ten years they have been closed at least some of the time. I don't mean to say that they don't have any skills or areas of expertise, but as far as training goes, they are not particularly well known.
I'm not sure who all I'd put in a top 10... There'd be Duke, MGH, Brigham, Northwestern, Cleveland Clinic, UVA, Emory, Pitt all in the running. Feel free to PM with specific questions if you'd like... always happy to try and help out.
No Mayo?
For CT Surgery? To be honest, I've not heard much from them. Claude Deschamps is a big name academically, but that's about all I know about them.
I'm pretty sure that residency programs don't have instate quotas...
"Cardiovascular surgery" is not really a thing.
You have vascular surgeons, and cardiac surgeons. They are completely separate training pathways.
A lot of departments are trying to rebrand themselves as "cardiovascular medicine" due to the interrelatedness of the disease processes and treatment modalities (and because it makes it easier for cardiologists to justify throwing in peripheral stents if they are a cardiovascular medicine specialist).
But in discussion of training programs --> it is CT and vascular. Separate programs.
In general, the US News rankings are pretty meaningless metrics when applied to training programs. Probably even moreso at the fellowship level than the residency level.
State programs do have quotas, ours does. Texas programs aren't training surgeons to work in Utah, California, or New York. There are considerations for gender and diversity in the criteria; also, certain spots are set aside for political reasons. We look hard at surgery applicants, with considerably more intent than we do for IM, FM or OB/GYN. Surgery holds a special place at most institutions and GS residents are known by everyone in medical education-- I can sit here and name you every current GS resident in thirty programs. It can cost three-quarters of a million dollars to train a CT surgeon, it matters who that person is.
"Cardiovascular surgery" is not really a thing.
You have vascular surgeons, and cardiac surgeons. They are completely separate training pathways.
A lot of departments are trying to rebrand themselves as "cardiovascular medicine" due to the interrelatedness of the disease processes and treatment modalities (and because it makes it easier for cardiologists to justify throwing in peripheral stents if they are a cardiovascular medicine specialist).
But in discussion of training programs --> it is CT and vascular. Separate programs.
In general, the US News rankings are pretty meaningless metrics when applied to training programs. Probably even moreso at the fellowship level than the residency level.
State programs do have quotas, ours does. Texas programs aren't training surgeons to work in Utah, California, or New York. There are considerations for gender and diversity in the criteria; also, certain spots are set aside for political reasons. We look hard at surgery applicants, with considerably more intent than we do for IM, FM or OB/GYN. Surgery holds a special place at most institutions and GS residents are known by everyone in medical education-- I can sit here and name you every current GS resident in thirty programs. It can cost three-quarters of a million dollars to train a CT surgeon, it matters who that person is.
At our Texas program geography, race, gender, etc played no role whatsoever in how applicants were ranked. 75% of graduates seek fellowship training. It would not make sense to try to rank applicants based on how likely they are to stay in TX as many of the most competitive fellowships are outside of TX.
If you are a GS resident in Texas I know your name, where you went to medical school, college, high school. Anyone can look at the rosters online, 75% of state GS residents come from Texas. BUMC is an exception with a wide range of schools represented, but 75% of their surgeons with fellowships practice in Texas-- I have a list in front of me of every BUMC chief in the last 50 years, I know where they are. We have twelve BUMC surgeons here in Austin alone. UTSW is the most important GS residency program in the country turning out 130 chiefs every decade, at least half of their surgeons work in Texas. You want to review UTSW plastic surgery? BCM Cardiac? The numbers can be looked at, and whether your program has a hard quota or not, it is what it is.
The most amazing thing about this thread, and those like this, is the post to view ratio. How the opinions of so few placed after the obligatory 6 month bump, and just before ERAS season can influence the judgement of thousands of medical students applying to the field. I was not immune, and read each of these threads carefully, so I'll add my insight.
I am not alone in thinking that the top ten programs on this list will almost certainly always follow the money. Just like every other major corporation or business who try to create an empire. I submit this advice- Don't choose your program based on its empire. Choose a program that invests in its residents and not in itself.
It does amaze me that Louisville's strength and rank continue be argued on these threads, but I'll tell you why it does. While there are more than enough research opportunities and faculty members with continued presence at the national level who still actively participate in the department, its strength is the ability to produce great general surgeons. The case numbers and complexity are among the highest anywhere. Graduates are able to use their fellowship for refining, not learning technical skill.
Finally, in a time where stifling attending oversight is becoming the norm across the country, Louisville still emphatically stands for autonomy.
I like how they paper over the problem, but then when they actually list their accredidation problems it's actually much bigger: http://louisville.edu/medicine/files/LCME 2014 Q-A final.pdfUL is certainly facing a lot of challenges right now, including the medical school being placed on probation by the LCME due to 'inadequate facilities' to support the incoming class of 2018, though the specific concerns of the LCME were being already being addressed long before being placed on probation. The school is undergoing a massive overhaul of its undergraduate medical campus and expects to be quickly taken off probation. From what I've heard, a lot of schools are coming up for accrediting and the LCME will be looking long and hard at each program from here on out. I expect many schools that have never faced probation before could certainly be looking at it now.
That said, the new Dean that took over last summer has a tremendous outlook and vision for the future, not only at the medical student level, but also at the resident/fellowship/departmental level. Our plastics division and CV department are top notch in terms of research and outcomes and still churn out fantastic surgeons. The CV department chair, Mark Slaughter, has made great headway into acquiring new research dollars in mechanical circulatory support devices and animal models. As far as I'm aware, the Kuntz and Kleinert hand and micro fellowship is still one of the most sought after in the world.
Losing visionaries and leaders is never easy for an institution. I think our former Dean (who is now at Duke) had a huge role in the downfall of a lot of things here, both at the undergraduate medical education side and driving away innovators and future leaders.
You call it quotas, I call it self selection. There's really only three programs in Texas with broad appeal outside the state. The rest of the programs get applicants who are (a) geographically drawn to Texas or (b) aren't very competitive so they are shotgun applying to tons of programs. So of course those programs end up with a lot of Texas natives.
I said earlier that state programs take a majority of instate applicants and those applicants who would like to practice the the state of residency. Each year our GS residency considers 500+ applicants for our eights categorical slots. UCLA, Louisville, Duke, Hopkins, UT-Houston, East Wichita Community, whichever-- all programs have a competitive applicant pool (each offering a ticket to a desirable job for a lifetime). The question was what are the 10 best programs; reality, there's no such a thing. Each applicant does not have an equal chance at every program due to specific selection criteria. Generally, applicants need to consider location first, then facilities, then faculty, then curriculum.
I said earlier that state programs take a majority of instate applicants and those applicants who would like to practice the the state of residency. Each year our GS residency considers 500+ applicants for our eights categorical slots. UCLA, Louisville, Duke, Hopkins, UT-Houston, East Wichita Community, whichever-- all programs have a competitive applicant pool (each offering a ticket to a desirable job for a lifetime). The question was what are the 10 best programs; reality, there's no such a thing. Each applicant does not have an equal chance at every program due to specific selection criteria. Generally, applicants need to consider location first, then facilities, then faculty, then curriculum.
Eight is very large; the average general surgery residency program in US only has four categorical positions per year.I don't seem to have access to FRIEDA for some reason. What institution offers 8 categorical residency positions in Austin, TX?
I like how they paper over the problem, but then when they actually list their accredidation problems it's actually much bigger: http://louisville.edu/medicine/files/LCME 2014 Q-A final.pdf
Yes there are programs with that many obviously but the vast majority of programs are smaller.Not in TX, but my program has 8 categorical and 8 prelim positions each year.
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/programresults2009-2013.pdfEinstein has 10 categoricals per year and a buttload of prelims. 2nd biggest program in the country.
yeah, I definitely would have reservations, and would have to look into it.Would anyone else find it a little concerning that the program has doubled their complement in just 3 years? I sure hope they have enough volume to go around.