Top 25 psych programs

[OldPsychDoc]

It would have been funny for AstraZeneca to sponsor the real Rose Bowl. My TCU Frogs dominated there this year.

Hence my "Little Sisters of the Poor" reference...

Did you see this story, TXPhys?

(btw--I pity anyone who is opening this thread and actually seeking guidance on ranking programs...)

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[TexasPhysician]

Hence my "Little Sisters of the Poor" reference...

Did you see this story, TXPhys?

(btw--I pity anyone who is opening this thread and actually seeking guidance on ranking programs...)

I thought that was hilarious!

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I thought that was hilarious!

I don't know which cause is less hopeless--championing single payer health insurance, or wanting a true NCAA football playoff.

 

[myPsychAlt]

Hopkins won't make it that far--the Emory-UCLA winner is the Final Four team from that bracket.

I'm predicting that Yale bludgeons its way to the final, only to lose to the Pitt-MGH victor.

I agree with you on Hopkins. They have one of the most talented teams in the bracket, but their interns are going to be way too exhausted from ICU call to be able to handle the Quakers in the round of 8.

 

[billypilgrim37]

It would have been funny for AstraZeneca to sponsor the real Rose Bowl. My TCU Frogs dominated there this year.

Too bad a non-Big10, non-Pac10 team will be officially ignored by all respectable college football fans!

 

[myPsychAlt]

Too bad a non-Big10, non-Pac10 team will be officially ignored by all respectable college football fans!

Trust me, there's nothing "respectable" about Ohio State football fans.

 

[Cinnameg]

If I were to give a list of top programs to make the best/happiest resident in the south, it would be in no particular order:
UTSW-Dallas, Duke, UTMB-Galveston, Palmetto in South Carolina, and Arkansas. MUSC would be borderline.

Those 5 in my opinion are the best mix of research, resident teaching, facilities, faculty, lifestyle, happiness of residents, etc. If you are only interested in research and nothing else, then your above list is much better.

Hi TexasPhysician,

I am wondering what you think about Emory or UNC? Since you're in the South I think you might have some thoughts on them that are more informed than mine . . . I did interview at both places but it's hard to get much information in just one day.

thanks,
Cinn

 

[TexasPhysician]

Hi TexasPhysician,

I am wondering what you think about Emory or UNC? Since you're in the South I think you might have some thoughts on them that are more informed than mine . . . I did interview at both places but it's hard to get much information in just one day.

thanks,
Cinn

Emory is currently a great research program that aims at producing good academic physicians. High emphasis on awards (the department helps you get them) and research. The program is very high volume. In my opinion, a program should provide enough patients to get experience with everything and enough time to read/learn about what you have seen. My personal belief is that Emory bends farther toward the experience side than most. If you like high volume, this place may be for you. If you want to do academics, it is a great option if you want to stay in the south. At least for now. I speculate that this might not hold up farther in the future. Many of you may know Dr. Nemeroff (previous chair at Emory) and what happened. Emory admits that Nemeroff brought in many of the current great researchers. Maybe all of those researchers stay and create a domino effect to keep the academic ball rolling. On the other hand, the people that Nemeroff helped to hire could always leave for greener pastures. I think Emory will be fine, but its something that people talk about.

UNC is similar to Emory in many aspects, but they have the added problem of being surrounded by stellar programs. Duke is right next door. In my opinion, Duke has more prestige, more professional options (their 4th year options seemed absolutely amazing), better faculty, cool electronic toys etc. Palmetto (in south carolina) is nearby and provides a good program with a lifestyle component. MUSC (also in south carolina) is as good as UNC professionally, but is located in a better city near the water. MUSC also has a better call schedule than UNC as far as I could tell. The Carolinas have a wealth of good programs. A program known for a cultural city on the water, a program known for high academic prestige, and a program that is geared towards preserving lifestyle better than most. UNC is the odd one out, except in NCAA basketball most years.

Both UNC and Emory are Top 10 programs in the South for academic career minded psychiatrists. If you are looking for the most well-rounded program, neither is Top 8 (maybe 10) in my experience. This is why it is so hard to come up with a consensus Top 25 across the nation. It all depends on what you are looking for in a program/career.

 

[myPsychAlt]

I'm not sure how you could say UNC-CH is "surrounded" by other programs. Yeah, there's duke, but Palmetto and MUSC are 3.5 and 5 hours away respectively.

 

[TexasPhysician]

I'm not sure how you could say UNC-CH is "surrounded" by other programs. Yeah, there's duke, but Palmetto and MUSC are 3.5 and 5 hours away respectively.

See my username. In Texas, 5 hours is nothing. Psychiatry programs in the same state can be 13 hours away.

 

[myPsychAlt]

See my username. In Texas, 5 hours is nothing. Psychiatry programs in the same state can be 13 hours away.

sure, but that's like saying "Columbia's a good program but it's surrounded by MGH, Penn, Hopkins..."

 

[mokie1]

sure, but that's like saying "Columbia's a good program but it's surrounded by MGH, Penn, Hopkins..."

That's pretty funny.

Man, with rank-list season around the bend, I'm wondering if I should set up a ROL based on basketball/football-- this is going to be tough. So many great programs, all slightly different in flavor, but all offering spectacular training.

 

[TexasPhysician]

sure, but that's like saying "Columbia's a good program but it's surrounded by MGH, Penn, Hopkins..."

Exactly. The 4 you listed wouldn't be my top 4 programs in the entire NE either. Maybe others would disagree...

I'm not saying UNC isn't a good program, just not top 5 in the south. Great academic program that isn't perfect, but few places are.

 

[newpsych]

Exactly. The 4 you listed wouldn't be my top 4 programs in the entire NE either. Maybe others would disagree...

I'm not saying UNC isn't a good program, just not top 5 in the south. Great academic program that isn't perfect, but few places are.

This just goes to show tha t the "top" doesn't exist...after interviewing, Emory and UNC were two of my favorites.

 

[cleareyedguy]

According to NIH funding:

Rank Name PSYCHIATRY
1 UNIVERSITY OF PITTSBURGH AT PITTSBURGH $65,591,628
2 YALE UNIVERSITY $54,513,970
3 UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA SAN DIEGO $45,595,211
4 UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA $41,190,664
5 JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY $32,665,661
6 WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY $29,508,141
7 DUKE UNIVERSITY $26,573,037
8 MEDICAL UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH CAROLINA $24,588,384
9 UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA CHAPEL HILL $23,265,907
10 COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY HEALTH SCIENCES $21,724,171
11 UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN AT ANN ARBOR $21,356,457
12 STANFORD UNIVERSITY $20,491,130
13 EMORY UNIVERSITY $20,387,635
14 UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS AT CHICAGO $19,618,511
15 NEW YORK UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDICINE $18,665,519
16 MOUNT SINAI SCHOOL OF MEDICINE OF NYU $16,856,204
17 UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON $16,385,993
18 UNIVERSITY OF CINCINNATI $15,890,285
19 UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS SW MED CTR/DALLAS $14,815,578
20 UNIVERSITY OF IOWA $13,640,795
21 UNIVERSITY OF COLORADO DENVER $13,289,142
22 INDIANA UNIV-PURDUE UNIV AT INDIANAPOLIS $12,999,408
23 UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA SAN FRANCISCO $12,966,207
24 UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA DAVIS $11,950,632
25 WEILL MEDICAL COLLEGE OF CORNELL UNIV $11,183,860



http://www.brimr.org/NIH_Awards/2009/Psychiatry2009R.xls

The NIH ranking is useful if you are looking to be chair of that department, but I'm not sure it helps you even if you are planning to do research, and I'm quite skeptical that it would help determine which programs teach the best or are best able to place you in a fellowship or job.

 

[billypilgrim37]

The NIH ranking is useful if you are looking to be chair of that department, but I'm not sure it helps you even if you are planning to do research, and I'm quite skeptical that it would help determine which programs teach the best or are best able to place you in a fellowship or job.

This list would probably be more useful if you took the numbers away and alphabetized them. Add the 3 good Harvard programs and about 5 more programs, and you could probably have a comfortable list of places where a really, really good medical student could justify going and not have to worry that they were ruining their chance of being a great psychiatrist, clinically or academically.

 

[billypilgrim37]

I'm not saying UNC isn't a good program, just not top 5 in the south.

This is just silly. It might not be one of your top five favorites, by what's important to you personally, and it may not be one of the top five places where you would thrive. But I can't imagine any sort of meaningful consensus that could exclude Emory or UNC from being in the "top 5 in the South." Maybe not top 5 lifestyle, top 5 opening up a private practice in your hometown, or top 5 in *insert obscure criteria that would be really important to about 3% of the applicant pool here,* but some criteria are simply more important than others. Not because I say so, but because a lot of people say so, and there are strength in numbers.

I know it's cool to be all post-modern and nihilistic and such, but Mystic River still deserved an Oscar more than Police Academy 5, though I'm sure it would not be hard to find people who would enjoy Police Academy 5 much more than they would enjoy Mystic River.

 

[sunlioness]

A Yale-Pitt final would be the equivalent of the UK-Duke 1993 Elite Eight game. There Will Be Blood!

*waves her terrible towel*

 

[notdeadyet]

I know it's cool to be all post-modern and nihilistic and such, but Mystic River still deserved an Oscar more than Police Academy 5, though I'm sure it would not be hard to find people who would enjoy Police Academy 5 much more than they would enjoy Mystic River.

Have to say, well said.

I'd put this in my top 20 posts on SDN. Or maybe top 25. It would definitely be top tier, at any rate. At least out where I live and hope to practice...

 

[billypilgrim37]

Very well played, SL and NDY

 

[TexasPhysician]

This is just silly. It might not be one of your top five favorites, by what's important to you personally, and it may not be one of the top five places where you would thrive. But I can't imagine any sort of meaningful consensus that could exclude Emory or UNC from being in the "top 5 in the South." Maybe not top 5 lifestyle, top 5 opening up a private practice in your hometown, or top 5 in *insert obscure criteria that would be really important to about 3% of the applicant pool here,* but some criteria are simply more important than others. Not because I say so, but because a lot of people say so, and there are strength in numbers.
.

There is no consensus in any top whatever despite your claim of there being a "meaningful consensus" somewhere. I was argueing against a top 5 in any region, because everyone will have a different top 5. I did my top 5 based on not only academics, but lifestyle, culture of the city, faculty, etc. I was looking for the most well-rounded program. If my goal was academics/research and I wanted to stay in the south, Emory/Duke/UNC may be my top 3 in that order. Having a career in research or being a program director at Yale isn't important to me, hence name of the institution won't get me anywhere in my life goals. In my list, I considered research to be worth much less than other categories. Someone doing research at my institution would benefit me how if I'm not involved?

I'm glad there isn't a consensus Top 5/25/50 etc., because that would make it much more difficult for some people to get into the program of their choice.

 

[billypilgrim37]

As a child resident at a program with lots of research, I have not yet picked up an AACAP practice parameter that did not have an author that I knew personally and who knew me enough that if I emailed a question I could get a great answer. There is a value to that. I'm not saying that sort of access is necessary to be a good psychiatrist or to achieve perfectly good career goals. I'm just saying it's really nice and valuable. It's not NOTHING.

 

[TexasPhysician]

As a child resident at a program with lots of research, I have not yet picked up an AACAP practice parameter that did not have an author that I knew personally and who knew me enough that if I emailed a question I could get a great answer. There is a value to that. I'm not saying that sort of access is necessary to be a good psychiatrist or to achieve perfectly good career goals. I'm just saying it's really nice and valuable. It's not NOTHING.

I've emailed a few authors across the country, and they respond as well. Most psychiatrists I've met are pretty good at communication. If it makes you feel better to have a personal relationship with researchers, then I'm happy for you.

 

[Chimed]

I've emailed a few authors across the country, and they respond as well. Most psychiatrists I've met are pretty good at communication. If it makes you feel better to have a personal relationship with researchers, then I'm happy for you.

There is no doubt that being at one of those top places with NIMH research funds has some advantages. It has helped me in regards to my own research and I know it will help with my future in academics. Like BP said, that doesn't mean someone at one of the places will be any better at clinical work nor a better researcher, but it has advantages for some people.

 

[TexasPhysician]

There is no doubt that being at one of those top places with NIMH research funds has some advantages. It has helped me in regards to my own research and I know it will help with my future in academics. Like BP said, that doesn't mean someone at one of the places will be any better at clinical work nor a better researcher, but it has advantages for some people.

I think we are going in circles now. Academic facilities breed great academicians. I agree with that.

 

[Chimed]

I think we are going in circles now. Academics breeds good academic physicians. I agree with that.

You beat me to it. I was about to add that annoying "beating a dead horse" icon if this went on any further.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

well, taking the two user polls stated in this thread, and the controversial computer polls (NIH rankings posted here), I counted 1/3 for each poll, which left me with 31 programs (I added a play in game between Wisc and Maryland to battle it out in Dayton.)

*brackets*

This took the thread from good to GREAT.

 

[Hockeyfan23]

I know I am just a low-life premed here but before I am interested in Psychiatry and was wondering how competitive are the programs in IL? I am also considering going to the Caribbean, AUC (I know I know) but before you rip me apart, how is it getting a Psych residency in IL (US citizen born in IL) as an "IMG"?

 

[shan564]

I know I am just a low-life premed here but before I am interested in Psychiatry and was wondering how competitive are the programs in IL? I am also considering going to the Caribbean, AUC (I know I know) but before you rip me apart, how is it getting a Psych residency in IL (US citizen born in IL) as an "IMG"?

Places in Chicago are automatically more competitive just by virtue of being in Chicago. I'm also an IMG, and the only two programs in IL that invited me for interviews were Rosalind Franklin and SIU (I applied to all of the IL programs because my parents live in Chicagoland). UIC specifically told me that they require 1 year of psych experience outside of med school if you're an IMG. The other places never responded to my email follow-up. UI-Peoria was one of the first to send me an express rejection.

Granted, I didn't have my Step 2CS score in time, so that might be why I had a lower interview yield.

That said, I did get interviews from many of my top choices, including Mayo, WashU, Cleveland Clinic, Iowa, and Indiana, which are all within a reasonable drive of Chicago. Also a couple of programs in Detroit, but I didn't end up accepting those interviews because I decided that Detroit might be the only city where I actually didn't want to live (I'm pretty flexible for the most part).


Now for the bad news:
Every year, residency admissions are getting more competitive, especially for IMGs. According to the NRMP site, there are about 24,000 positions in the Match and about 16,000 US MD applicants and 3,000 DO applicants, leaving about 5,000 positions for IMGs. As it stands, IMGs (including US citizen IMGs) have about a 50% match rate (which is artificially deflated because some IMGs take pre-match spots, but that has become less likely this year, so we'll have more accurate information about that in the next few months).

Meanwhile, there are more medical schools opening up in the US... the AAMC estimates that there will be over 20,000 MD students and 6,000 DO students starting med school in the US this year. And the Caribbean schools are accepting more and more students every year. And the number of applicants from India and other countries isn't showing any signs of slowing down, especially as places like Canada/Australia/UK have now closed their doors for non-citizen IMGs.

There has been talk of increasing the number of residency spots, but I haven't seen any data abou tit.

So, in short, that means that all residencies will get more competitive in coming years. Also, it's unlikely that there will be enough spots to go around for all of the Caribbean grads. If you're a good student, you'll still have a good shot... but you probably won't have the luxury to be picky about geography.

 

[Hockeyfan23]

U got interview invites from Mayo and CC but not from UI Peoria? Why is this the case? And yes I am aware of everything going on with residencies. However, I am also aware that less and less med students are going into psych every year so wouldnt this help a US citizen IMG? Also do US citizen IMG's have more of an upper hand than foreign IMG's when it comes to residency?

 

[shan564]

U got interview invites from Mayo and CC but not from UI Peoria? Why is this the case?

Everybody has different criteria for screening out applicants.

And yes I am aware of everything going on with residencies. However, I am also aware that less and less med students are going into psych every year so wouldnt this help a US citizen IMG?

I don't think there's a decrease in psychiatry applicants every year. If anything, there's an increase... just like every other specialty.

Also do US citizen IMG's have more of an upper hand than foreign IMG's when it comes to residency?

Foreign IMGs always say that this is the case, but PDs (correct me if I'm wrong) generally say that they don't care about your citizenship as long as they have the facilities to process visas. So foreign IMGs have fewer choices (due to the visa issue), but that shouldn't affect their chances substantially if they're good applicants. I suspect that the real reason why foreign IMGs are disadvantaged is their English skills.

For instance, I met an Indian guy along the trail who had interviewed at MGH and Columbia (I met him at Cleveland Clinic), which are probably the two most competitive psych programs in the country. He was a standard Indian grad who needed a visa just like all of the others. And he didn't have a PhD or anything special like that... he was just a good applicant and had good English skills.

 

[Hockeyfan23]

Yea well I just would like to get in IL or really close to it, so I hope it will work out. As far as UIC goes, what type of experience are they looking for? and how do u go about doing it?

 

[Hockeyfan23]

Also, this is the article I was referring to when saying that less US grads are matching into Psych each year:
http://psychnews.psychiatryonline.org/newsarticle.aspx?articleid=1104005

 

[shan564]

Yea well I just would like to get in IL or really close to it, so I hope it will work out. As far as UIC goes, what type of experience are they looking for? and how do u go about doing it?

They want any experience, but it has to be in psychiatry. But that said, UIC is probably the top psych program in Illinois.

You'll probably be able to get into Rosalind Franklin, but if you don't mind being slightly farther away from Chicago, U.Iowa has a much much much much better program, and it's not too competitive because of its location. I think Iowa and Indiana are better than any program in Illinois, and are within a short drive. And probably Wisconsin too, but they didn't invite me for an interview, so I don't know much about them. SIU will probably give you an interview, and they're within IL, but just as far from Chicago as Iowa and Indiana (and not anywhere near as good).

Also, this is the article I was referring to when saying that less US grads are matching into Psych each year:
http://psychnews.psychiatryonline.or...icleid=1104005

That article doesn't say that there are fewer people each year, just fewer this year than last year. Between 2002 and 2012, there was a small increase. And considering the extra attention to primary care specialties and the recent increase in pay for psychiatrists, I think that the trend will increase overall.

That said, if you're a good candidate, you'll still be able to get into psych somewhere. I'm just saying you'll need to be flexible with location.

 

[Superpsych]

I know I am just a low-life premed here but before I am interested in Psychiatry and was wondering how competitive are the programs in IL? I am also considering going to the Caribbean, AUC (I know I know) but before you rip me apart, how is it getting a Psych residency in IL (US citizen born in IL) as an "IMG"?

Don't be a USIMG if you can avoid it!

Try: Any USMD then any USDO before that and you will be much more likely to obtain a residency placement plus a school that has your back when you need them to.

If all that fails then: Ross or St. George as they have 50 state approval and government loans.

Please don't shoot yourself in the foot before a race

 

[Psychlover2013]

Don't be a USIMG if you can avoid it!

Try: Any USMD then any USDO before that and you will be much more likely to obtain a residency placement plus a school that has your back when you need them to.

If all that fails then: Ross or St. George as they have 50 state approval and government loans.

Please don't shoot yourself in the foot before a race

I am from Carib and I agree. AUC is also approved in 50 states and has government loans. DO is probably a much better option. It is easier to schedule audition electives and you will probably receive more interviews with similar credentials.

 

[vistaril]

I am from Carib and I agree. AUC is also approved in 50 states and has government loans. DO is probably a much better option. It is easier to schedule audition electives and you will probably receive more interviews with similar credentials.

well of course DO is a better option. it isn't even a debate.

 

[Superpsych]

I am from Carib and I agree. AUC is also approved in 50 states and has government loans. DO is probably a much better option. It is easier to schedule audition electives and you will probably receive more interviews with similar credentials.

Wish I knew back then what I know now too

 

[Hockeyfan23]

So AUC is a bad choice when it comes to carib schools and placement in Psych?

 

[shan564]

AUC is a decent choice compared to other Caribbean schools, but the Caribbean in general is a very risky choice these days.

 

[vistaril]

So AUC is a bad choice when it comes to carib schools and placement in Psych?

if you graduate from AUC, pass step 1 and step 2, and dont have any major red flags coming out of AUC you will match somewhere for certain in psych if you apply to a reasonable number of programs. especially if you are a USIMG

Now that doesnt mean you should go to AUC.....going to a carrib school would not be a good experience.

 

[shan564]

if you graduate from AUC, pass step 1 and step 2, and dont have any major red flags coming out of AUC you will match somewhere for certain in psych if you apply to a reasonable number of programs. especially if you are a USIMG

I agree with your statement, but I'm not convinced that this will still be true in 4 years when the OP graduates.

 

[vistaril]

I agree with your statement, but I'm not convinced that this will still be true in 4 years when the OP graduates.

yeah...in 4 years it will be....now predicting 15 years into the future is more difficult. But the margins are so big now that in 4 years there won't be enough new spots to fill them all.

You're looking at a situation where ~40% of all psych matches are now IMGS, and of those a *lot* are fmgs. Of those fmgs many do not have good english skills. You are talking easily over 100 slots every year in psych that would be low hanging fruit for an AUC american citizen with no red flags.....those spots just don't dissapear in 4 short years.

 

[shan564]

yeah...in 4 years it will be....now predicting 15 years into the future is more difficult. But the margins are so big now that in 4 years there won't be enough new spots to fill them all.

You're looking at a situation where ~40% of all psych matches are now IMGS, and of those a *lot* are fmgs. Of those fmgs many do not have good english skills. You are talking easily over 100 slots every year in psych that would be low hanging fruit for an AUC american citizen with no red flags.....those spots just don't dissapear in 4 short years.

I'm not saying the spots will just "disappear"... there's been an active effort to increase the number of medical graduates in the US. This year, there were about 16,000 MDs and 3,000 DOs graduating in the US and applying for 26,000 MD residencies and 1,000 DO residencies. In other words, there were 8,000 spots for IMGs.

Meanwhile, there were about 20,000 MD students and 6,000 DO students enrolling in first-year. That's a difference of 7,000 American grads. There are no specific plans to increase the number of residency spots to compensate for that. There will be a small increase, but most of the IMG positions will be squeezed out.

I'm not saying that it'll be impossible to match in psychiatry in four years. I'm just saying that it'll be quite a bit more difficult for IMGs than it is now.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I'm not saying the spots will just "disappear"... there's been an active effort to increase the number of medical graduates in the US. This year, there were about 16,000 MDs and 3,000 DOs graduating in the US and applying for 26,000 MD residencies and 1,000 DO residencies. In other words, there were 8,000 spots for IMGs.

Meanwhile, there were about 20,000 MD students and 6,000 DO students enrolling in first-year. That's a difference of 7,000 American grads. There are no specific plans to increase the number of residency spots to compensate for that. There will be a small increase, but most of the IMG positions will be squeezed out.

I'm not saying that it'll be impossible to match in psychiatry in four years. I'm just saying that it'll be quite a bit more difficult for IMGs than it is now.

Even now I don't think it's going to be an easy match for IMGs anymore.
Just seems like there's a surge of interest among USMGs and DOs. And plenty of USIMGs to fill in the rest of the slots.

 

[Hockeyfan23]

Look Im not trying to start a fight here, just looking to see what your thoughts are. I figure just because there is an increase in med school slots doesnt mean theres automatically an exponential increase in people entering primary care type specialties. And if psych is that heavy with foreign med grads, wouldn't residencies always want a us citizen who has done clinicals in US hospitals over them?

 

[vistaril]

Even now I don't think it's going to be an easy match for IMGs anymore.
Just seems like there's a surge of interest among USMGs and DOs.

you hear this every year in some form or another, but over time the % of imgs is relatively constant vs other fields.....

Note that this isn't specific to psychiatry, but any field that is heavily infiltrated by imgs. There are always vague rumblings how 'this year is going to be different' and 'surges of interest', but then when the numbers come out the numbers usually look remarkably similar to previous years....sometimes a tiny bump, sometimes a tiny decrease.

 

[xlithiumx]

Even now I don't think it's going to be an easy match for IMGs anymore.
Just seems like there's a surge of interest among USMGs and DOs. And plenty of USIMGs to fill in the rest of the slots.

I tend to agree. At my decidedly middle of the road midwest university program, we have not offered interviews to IMGs or FMGs in the last 4 years because there was no need to do so. We had more than enough interest from highly qualified US MDs and DOs.

It's been my understanding that we dipped into the IMG/FMG pool in past years when we felt there were not enough quality US medical grads. Other programs may take an alternative approach and pick out the best IMG/FMG candidates and interview them every year regardless of the number of US medical grads available. That said, in the last 5-10 years, we've gone from having typically 1 and sometimes 2 IMG/FMG per class to none for what will be 4 years as of July. I suppose if there are any other programs that operate like mine, that might make a meaningful dent in the number of spots available for IMG/FMG candidates.

 

[vistaril]

I tend to agree. At my decidedly middle of the road midwest university program, we have not offered interviews to IMGs or FMGs in the last 4 years because there was no need to do so. We had more than enough interest from highly qualified US MDs and DOs.

It's been my understanding that we dipped into the IMG/FMG pool in past years when we felt there were not enough quality US medical grads..

well if you're middle of the road program has had fewer imgs over the last few years, then some other middle of the road program has had more.....because the overall numbers don't lie.

 

[xlithiumx]

well if you're middle of the road program has had fewer imgs over the last few years, then some other middle of the road program has had more.....because the overall numbers don't lie.

You are right. The numbers don't lie. From NRMP Charting Outcomes in the Match.

2005 (NB: This is the only data available)
US-MD applicants: 681
All other applicants: 576
Total positions offered: 1032
Number of applicants per position: 1.32

2007
US-MD applicants: 648
US-MD matched: 626
US-MD match rate: 96.6%
All other applicants: 671
All other applicants matched: 326
All other applicants match rate: 48.6%
Total positions offered: 1073
US-MD applicants per position offered: 0.60
Number of all other applicants per position not taken by US-MD: 1.5

2009
US-MD applicants: 681
US-MD matched: 643
US-MD match rate: 94.4%
All other applicants: 882
All other applicants matched: 371
All other applicants match rate: 42.1%
Total positions offered: 1097
US-MD applicants per position offered: 0.62
Number of all other applicants per position not taken by US-MD: 1.94

2011
US-MD applicants: 658
US-MD matched: 630
US-MD match rate: 95.7%
All other applicants: 939
All other applicants matched: 402
All other applicants match rate: 42.8%
Total positions offered: 1097
US-MD applicants per position offered: 0.59
Number of all other applicants per position not taken by US-MD: 2.01

The bolded statistics are the relevant ones, I think. What I see is a gradual (but meaningful) decline in the match rate for non-US MD applicants. I also see a marked increase in the number of non-US MD applicants seeking the spots not taken by US MD applicants.

The relevance of that last statistic is contingent upon the assumption that programs, as a rule, prefer US MD applicants rather osteopaths or FMG/IMG applicants. This, at least, seems consistent with your assertion, Vistaril.

The numbers plainly show that it has already gotten significantly harder for non-US MD applicants to match into psychiatry programs. That appears to based not in an increase of US-MD applicants, but rather an increase in the number of IMG/FMG/DO applicants trying for psychiatry residency.

So, we can agree that psychiatry is not more competitive than in the past for US MD applicants, but it is demonstrably more competitive for all other applicants.