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Top IM Programs - Step 1

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medmonkey5

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Hello All,

Was wondering if anyone could give an approximation of what step 1 cutoff the top 10 IM residencies might use in granting interviews. I was also wondering if the Step 1 score matters much after making the cutoff/getting the interview. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
 

jdh71

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Hello All,

Was wondering if anyone could give an approximation of what step 1 cutoff the top 10 IM residencies might use in granting interviews. I was also wondering if the Step 1 score matters much after making the cutoff/getting the interview. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

We really need some sort of FAQ thread . . .

The top IM programs probably have a step 1 screen to look at applications, but it's really hard to say these days there is any sort of high enough step 1 to automatically get an interview. For the big 4 (UCSF, Hopkins, MassGen, and B&W) step one cut off is probably closer to 250 these days, and for the the rest of the "top 10" probably 235-240ish. Columbia and Penn seem to be very choosy and harder to predict.

Though if you really want to land the "best" IM, you'll need the CV tripple threat, step 1 >250, honor in IM, and AOA. Being from a top 10 medical school can replace AOA and/or honors.

Good luck
 

gutonc

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We really need some sort of FAQ thread . . .

The top IM programs probably have a step 1 screen to look at applications, but it's really hard to say these days there is any sort of high enough step 1 to automatically get an interview. For the big 4 (UCSF, Hopkins, MassGen, and B&W) step one cut off is probably closer to 250 these days, and for the the rest of the "top 10" probably 235-240ish. Columbia and Penn seem to be very choosy and harder to predict.

Though if you really want to land the "best" IM, you'll need the CV tripple threat, step 1 >250, honor in IM, and AOA. Being from a top 10 medical school can replace AOA and/or honors.

Good luck

Having a PhD can make up for one of those as well.
 

Instatewaiter

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We really need some sort of FAQ thread . . .

The top IM programs probably have a step 1 screen to look at applications, but it's really hard to say these days there is any sort of high enough step 1 to automatically get an interview. For the big 4 (UCSF, Hopkins, MassGen, and B&W) step one cut off is probably closer to 250 these days, and for the the rest of the "top 10" probably 235-240ish. Columbia and Penn seem to be very choosy and harder to predict.

Though if you really want to land the "best" IM, you'll need the CV tripple threat, step 1 >250, honor in IM, and AOA. Being from a top 10 medical school can replace AOA and/or honors.

Good luck

To get an interview these days I think it's probably lower than that- probably closer to 235ish if you have good LORs, Honors and AOA. To match, it is probably 240-250 (with some rare exceptions).

Being from a top med school, having crazy research or having a PhD can make up for lack-luster other things.

Again it is a crap shoot. You may get interviews at Penn, MGH and Brigham and Womens but not at Duke. Not much you can do but put your application out there and see what happens.
 

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Insight on Med-Peds?

I'm guessing the top four programs would be Penn-CHOP, Boston Childrens-BWH, MGH, and Hopkins?

>250 Step 1 + soon PhD for now, 10-20 rank med school, don't know about AOA or IM/peds clerkship since I haven't re-entered 3rd year yet.

Are extracurriculars crucial? I don't have any global health stuff, it seems like international medicine is a big one for med-peds people...
 

thisisnotareal

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I got interviews at UCSF and Hopkins, rejected from MGH (no app to B&W), lotsa interviews at other "strong" programs with high 240s step 1 coming from generic state school, senior AOA, Hs in majority of clerkships including IM, generic extracurriculars, just enough research exp to fill in blank section (no pubs, weak sauce poster pres). I did have low 270s step 2 which may have raised enough eyebrows to get some looks. In my experience PDs look at Step 1 as a very rough translation of "academic horsepower" and use it as such. Knowing the avg SDNers love for detail, I would guess that your fellow interviewers at the big 4 have step scores in a fairly narrow range with a mean of 245 with a std dev of 5. Have a drink, in all probability at this point in your app progress there is nothing you can do to change your fate (for the better anyway).
 

jdh71

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To get an interview these days I think it's probably lower than that- probably closer to 235ish if you have good LORs, Honors and AOA. To match, it is probably 240-250 (with some rare exceptions).

Being from a top med school, having crazy research or having a PhD can make up for lack-luster other things.

Again it is a crap shoot. You may get interviews at Penn, MGH and Brigham and Womens but not at Duke. Not much you can do but put your application out there and see what happens.

It's doubtful anyone really cares about the invite if you're not in the running for a match spot.
 

littlealex

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I got interviews at UCSF and Hopkins, rejected from MGH (no app to B&W), lotsa interviews at other "strong" programs with high 240s step 1 coming from generic state school, senior AOA, Hs in majority of clerkships including IM, generic extracurriculars, just enough research exp to fill in blank section (no pubs, weak sauce poster pres). I did have low 270s step 2 which may have raised enough eyebrows to get some looks. In my experience PDs look at Step 1 as a very rough translation of "academic horsepower" and use it as such. Knowing the avg SDNers love for detail, I would guess that your fellow interviewers at the big 4 have step scores in a fairly narrow range with a mean of 245 with a std dev of 5. Have a drink, in all probability at this point in your app progress there is nothing you can do to change your fate (for the better anyway).

245 +/- 5? I highly doubt that. High 250's to 260's are a dime a dozen on interview trails now.
 

tco

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245 +/- 5? I highly doubt that. High 250's to 260's are a dime a dozen on interview trails now.

Statistically inaccurate. The most recently gathered data shows that 92-95% of test takers score under 250.
 
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mercaptovizadeh

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245 +/- 5? I highly doubt that. High 250's to 260's are a dime a dozen on interview trails now.

For what sorts of residency interviews? Not for most top IM programs. I'd even find it doubtful if 250 is the average score of interviewees at BWH, MGH, JHU, or UCSF.

I do somehow think this is an artifact of SDN, since in my experience having talked to many other med students is that people did not inch much above 250 on the high end. I know of only one person who scored a crazy high score of 289, but he didn't match well because his social skills were off.

Also, people should know that this is about a complete application, not just a Step 1 score. I know an orthopedics resident at a top 5 program with a 240s score. According to SDNers, she shouldn't have even applied to orthopedics without a 272.
 

jdh71

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Also, people should know that this is about a complete application, not just a Step 1 score. I know an orthopedics resident at a top 5 program with a 240s score. According to SDNers, she shouldn't have even applied to orthopedics without a 272.

step scores are the screening tool

you are correct about a complete app though
 
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littlealex

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Statistically inaccurate. The most recently gathered data shows that 92-95% of test takers score under 250.

Give me a break. Isn't this thread specifically about Top 10 programs? No one cares about the average at this point in the game.
 

Instatewaiter

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I was talking to one of the people on the rank list committee a few months ago and it seems the average for Hopkins is in the 240s. Now I'm getting this second hand so take it as you will but i'd guess around 240 is good for top IM programs
 

tco

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Give me a break. Isn't this thread specifically about Top 10 programs? No one cares about the average at this point in the game.

Considering that the majority of those top 5-8% will go into a specialty other than IM, it's difficult to believe that a score of 250 to 260 is "a dime a dozen," on the IM interview trail. You're suffering from the SDN bias.
 

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Over 360 US seniors applied to IM with a step 1 score over 250 in 2011. 190 independent applicants applied with a step 1 score over 250. In short, at top programs a 250 really isn't special
 

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I'd take instatewaiter's info over a guy who as 2 posts. A 240-245 average at Hopkins sounds reasonable. Some are above and some are below.
 

go lakers

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For reference point, UCLA's mean for their intern class two years ago was 252 and I interviewed there with a score ~30 points less but a lot of other things going for me (good step 2 score, many H's, multiple publications, etc.).

Everyone who mentioned you need a "complete" app is definitely on point with that assessment.
 

DannyB

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I'd take instatewaiter's info over a guy who as 2 posts. A 240-245 average at Hopkins sounds reasonable. Some are above and some are below.

uhhh, I posted the actual stats, not some hearsay. Thanks for stating some people score below the average and some above, we didn't realize that. Listen, it sucks to not score as well as you'd like on step 1 but all the rationalizing in the world isn't going to change that fact that the test is hugely important.
 

Radonkulous

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uhhh, I posted the actual stats, not some hearsay. Thanks for stating some people score below the average and some above, we didn't realize that. Listen, it sucks to not score as well as you'd like on step 1 but all the rationalizing in the world isn't going to change that fact that the test is hugely important.

lol. way to divert attention away from the topic. Tell me your sources and maybe then I'll believe you.
 

mercaptovizadeh

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For reference point, UCLA's mean for their intern class two years ago was 252 and I interviewed there with a score ~30 points less but a lot of other things going for me (good step 2 score, many H's, multiple publications, etc.).

Everyone who mentioned you need a "complete" app is definitely on point with that assessment.

UCLA is a highly desirable place based on location, so that will inflate the score above where it would necessarily be just based on academic rank.
 
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Robot Skeleton

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lol. way to divert attention away from the topic. Tell me your sources and maybe then I'll believe you.

He's actually correct if you look at Charting Outcomes from 2011.

There are plenty of people with stellar step 1 scores applying in the internal med match. Fortunately there are a lot of great places to train for IM in the country, and each program has a fair number of slots.
 

grayscaleart

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Over 360 US seniors applied to IM with a step 1 score over 250 in 2011. 190 independent applicants applied with a step 1 score over 250. In short, at top programs a 250 really isn't special

Does this include prelim IM? 'cause that'll include harvard and stanford derm, rad onc applicants who I interviewed with for prelim at a really mediocre IM program in the bay area. Don't know whether that can skew things a bit.
 

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Does this include prelim IM? 'cause that'll include harvard and stanford derm, rad onc applicants who I interviewed with for prelim at a really mediocre IM program in the bay area. Don't know whether that can skew things a bit.

No it doesn't
 

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He's actually correct if you look at Charting Outcomes from 2011.

There are plenty of people with stellar step 1 scores applying in the internal med match. Fortunately there are a lot of great places to train for IM in the country, and each program has a fair number of slots.

True, but the question is about individual programs and their respective Step 1 averages. Maybe Hopkins doesn't like students with 270 scores. Who knows. The question was what are the elite programs' averages for Step 1, nothing about the entire group of IM applicants (though there is a correlation as I well understand).
 

littlealex

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UCLA is a highly desirable place based on location, so that will inflate the score above where it would necessarily be just based on academic rank.

Again we're talking about top 10 programs. UCLA isn't even in the Big 4 and they average 250's. I don't get why you guys are so fixated on this point.

Are there people with 230's in top programs? Of course. What is the cut off to get an interview? No one really knows. All I am saying is from my experience I felt 250's were common place.

--------------


Statistically inaccurate. The most recently gathered data shows that 92-95% of test takers score under 250.


Get your head out of the sand.
http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf

364 US seniors applied with 250+ to Internal Medicine in 2011. 104 of them had 260 or higher.

Top IM programs each have about 30 spots, which means if they want to, they can fill number 1 to 12 with just US seniors with boards >250. Still statistically unlikely?

Of course, more than boards matter. However, while IM average boards is low, it's a very competitive field at the top. It's the same damn people on all the interviews and they pretty much all rocked their boards.
 
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gobot

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For Stanford, those who matched have average Step 1 = 250. There probably are cutoffs for interview invites, but I don't know what they are.
 

tco

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Over 360 US seniors applied to IM with a step 1 score over 250 in 2011. 190 independent applicants applied with a step 1 score over 250. In short, at top programs a 250 really isn't special

That's really quite incredible.

Maybe I'm biased, but I don't feel that it's not that a 250 "is not special," it's that it's damn near impossible to get much higher than a 260. Yes, there are freakazoids that score 280, but how many have you met, personally? Out of those, how many could you actually hold a conversation with?

As I said to Alex via PM, I'm under the impression that most programs use the Step exam as a cutoff anyway. If you hit their cutoff, you get an interview if everything else matches up well.
 

Radonkulous

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For Stanford, those who matched have average Step 1 = 250. There probably are cutoffs for interview invites, but I don't know what they are.

I also think location has something to do with it. LA/Bay Area are probably more desirable places to live than Baltimore. Hence maybe the higher averages there. I wouldn't be surprised if a place like WashU was below Stanford's average even though it is considered a cut below elite but still top 6-7.
 

littlealex

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Sigh, kids these days. The truth is whatever they believe it is.

Good luck everyone on your cycle. Step1 is just a small piece of the puzzle.
 
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duckie99

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All I am saying is from my experience I felt 250's were common place.

Most people in the interview room has boards in the 245-260 ballpark.

I am curious as to how you know this or even got that impression... it implies that people on the interview trail were just spouting off their scores to one another which I find beyond highly unlikely since people in my med school (top 20) have never even mentioned their MCAT score let alone their step 1.

Unless a person in-the-know says with certainty or a program advertises what the avg step 1 is I would not believe it. Obviously "top" programs have higher scores but how high is anyone's guess. I'd wager low 240s avg max simply because of the large number of programs and applicants.
 

jdh71

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If this thread continues, I'm going to douse the forum in kerosine and light a match.

Yeah, the IM forum has been lame, but at least we weren't filled with the same stupid ****ing SDN douchebag neuroticism about this **** that you see in allo or many of the other sub-specialty forums.

Now would you all please just stop it?
 

gutonc

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If this thread continues, I'm going to douse the forum in kerosine and light a match.

Yeah, the IM forum has been lame, but at least we weren't filled with the same stupid ****ing SDN douchebag neuroticism about this **** that you see in allo or many of the other sub-specialty forums.

Now would you all please just stop it?

This is why we can't have nice things.

And yes...if this continues, I'm closing it and moving it to Pre-Allo where it will be heartily mocked for the naivete and douchebaggery exhibited.
 

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Insight on Med-Peds?

I'm guessing the top four programs would be Penn-CHOP, Boston Childrens-BWH, MGH, and Hopkins?

>250 Step 1 + soon PhD for now, 10-20 rank med school, don't know about AOA or IM/peds clerkship since I haven't re-entered 3rd year yet.

Are extracurriculars crucial? I don't have any global health stuff, it seems like international medicine is a big one for med-peds people...

Good (and that's debatable but whatever) categorical programs don't necessarily make for good combined programs. It's hard to say exactly what does, but a lot of prestigious institutions have relatively small med-peds programs, small combined faculty presence, some don't even have combined clinic. It also depends greatly on your goals, certainly the big names provide a lot of opportunity for research if you're interested, but if you're into primary care a lot of those same big names are kind of fellowship mills with less emphasis on the outpatient stuff.

Your stats so far are good enough to do anything/anywhere, just don't mess up 3rd year and try not to be a dbag (the latter is hard for medical people, just look at this forum).


EDIT: 2mo old thread, sorry!
 
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Step 1 is very important. The PD survey actually shows that Step 2 is more favored or more important to PDs, but only slightly. The reason why Step 1 is the most important is because of screening. Programs will screen based on step 1 alone. This does filter out people with PhDs.

Maryland generally likes to see a 215 minimum. Jefferson uses around 220. These numbers are published on their residency websites. Higher ranked programs will use 240 and up, but each individual program is different.
 

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Hi:

I have the IM "pseudo" triple threat

Step 1 257
IM honors
AOA "retroactively" (meaning my new school has no AOA chapter yet, but the school assured me that if they did, they would have awarded me; most likely I will receive it retroactively)

I go to a new school which makes it "bad" by default.

But my Step 2 is 270, so will that make up for one of my above two deficiencies?
 

dd128

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Hi:

I have the IM "pseudo" triple threat

Step 1 257
IM honors
AOA "retroactively" (meaning my new school has no AOA chapter yet, but the school assured me that if they did, they would have awarded me; most likely I will receive it retroactively)

I go to a new school which makes it "bad" by default.

But my Step 2 is 270, so will that make up for one of my above two deficiencies?

I'm confused on your "two" deficiencies?

By what I see you have no real deficiencies and should be in good shape for just about anywhere.
 

gutonc

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I'm confused on your "two" deficiencies?

By what I see you have no real deficiencies and should be in good shape for just about anywhere.

Agreed. You have one tiny little problem, i.e. you are at a new school. Since you can choose "my school doesn't have AOA" on ERAS, the fact that you're not actually AOA isn't a huge deal.
 

NewYorkDoctors

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Okay thanks

Just chalk up my post to SDN associated neurotic tendencies
 

themachine312

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So what about an app that's:

Step 1- mid 260s
Step 2- Low 270s
only High Pass in IM but honors in Sub-I
Don't know about AOA but its a maybe.
Low tier school

No research to speak of.

I feel I don't have a very well rounded out app.
 

mercaptovizadeh

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For top IM/peds programs:

How important are ECs? (other than having a PhD) I'm talking about volunteering, free clinics, magazines, "interest" groups, etc.?

How carefully do they pay attention to publications being from masters vs. doctoral work?

How important are clinical rotations outside of medicine (and peds)? Specifically, surgery, OB/Gyn, FM?
 

gutonc

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So what about an app that's:

Step 1- mid 260s
Step 2- Low 270s
only High Pass in IM but honors in Sub-I
Don't know about AOA but its a maybe.
Low tier school

No research to speak of.

I feel I don't have a very well rounded out app.

You don't. And that puts you solidly in the middle 50% of applicants from that standpoint. But with your step scores and SubI honors you stand a pretty good chance of at least interviewing wherever you want.
 

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After all these threads, I am just thankful that I got into a residency when I did. LOL.

And just a little secret - no matter where you go on the top 25 IM programs, you will get a similar education, so don't sweat it! Your ego might be bruised a bit but it won't hinder your education. And just being at the top program is not going to teach you medicine.

As far as aiming for a step 1 score - do the best you can with the preparation and it will be ok -- Good Luck :luck:
 

harate09

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:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
After all these threads, I am just thankful that I got into a residency when I did. LOL.

And just a little secret - no matter where you go on the top 25 IM programs, you will get a similar education, so don't sweat it! Your ego might be bruised a bit but it won't hinder your education. And just being at the top program is not going to teach you medicine.

As far as aiming for a step 1 score - do the best you can with the preparation and it will be ok -- Good Luck :luck:

:thumbup:
 

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cutoffs are listed for some programs on freida. many great programs either don't have one or have a low one.. i think jhu is listed as 210s or something. i got step1 of 222 and received invites to all mentioned but b&w and jhu, so i guess they don't automatically screen for that score
 
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