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Fine with me, at least they're using that fat tuition for something that will benefit students and not just padding administrative salaries. Go UoP! 😉
Top pick schools and why?
- Thread starter mc719
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Fine with me, at least they're using that fat tuition for something that will benefit students and not just padding administrative salaries. Go UoP! 😉
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Pacific Dugoni School of Dentistry didn't have to build a new facility to attract students. The school receives well over 3000 applications every year. However, because of the major decision to change our curriculum towards the Pacific Helix, the new and integrated system/case based learning model of the medical and clinical science; the head of the Dugoni family decided to come up with this change of facility. Why the change?? The current facility doesn't have enough smaller classrooms to support the small group case based disscussion of our new curriculum. That's why Pacific Dugoni decided to move on from its home.
If the school is one of your top 3 choices, I strongly encourage you predents to come out to San Francisco to check out Pacific Dugoni beore you apply. It'll be worth your time.
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Columbia was my top choice but I didn't get an interview. UoP wasn't even one of my top choices until I interviewed there. I was very impressed and I can't complain how things turned out.
So yeah, your visit/interview at a school is likely to change your perception of that school.
So yeah, your visit/interview at a school is likely to change your perception of that school.
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That has been making me wonder ...
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Out of your schools so far, I'm surprised Penn isn't a clear winner so far. Personally, after visiting Columbia, Tufts, Penn, UCLA, Michigan, and UoP...Penn is my top choice, hands down. For me, at least, I can see past the sketchy areas of West Philly and the dungeon..simply because of:
1) the name: the seniors there said Penn's name has carried tremendous weight at their interviews for residencies and specialties. Their regular rotations amongst all the specialties (not just units here and there) give them so much valuable knowledge about treatment planning in each field.
2) the main clinic: I can bear the first two years in the dungeon, as long as I know the main clinic is good. That, and all the old clinics are going to be renovated soon; perhaps not while we'll be there, but by the time we graduate, Penn will be even more sought after.
3) the curriculum: I'm pretty impressed with the DAU & EFDA opportunities. You learn so much as an assistant. It'll definitely lessen the learning curve when we transition into clinic. It's awesome that you're in clinic and working with patients all 4 years that you're there.
4) The campus: I love that it's part of main campus. It's gorgeous, and it makes collaborative work easy with the dual degree programs
5) mandatory externship: I don't many, if any, other programs that make you go seek opportunities for next year. I'm gonna try my best to sample some specialties and make connections
6) NIHR grants: so much funding for research opportunities
7) The faculty: brilliant. inspiring. Penn Dental has their own dental life sciences faculty. I like that they're not shared with med.
8) patient pool diversity: the MCC clinic sees so many types of patients. That, and there are numerous opportunities for community outreach through bridging the gap, pennsmiles, the homeless children's clinic, etc.
I could go on for a while. At first I was deadset on Columbia, but I definitely don't want to do 2 years of medicine and fear for my life everyday lol. I was blown away by Penn's presentation at our interview. They made it pretty clear: If you want super strong clinical - go to Temple. If you want super strong didactics - go to columbia/harvard. But if you want the best of both worlds - go to Penn.
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This is something all the ignorants on SDN keep trying to refute: that patients don't care about what school you graduated from. It does, so pay attention!
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My classmate who interviewed there said the new building will be opening its doors in summer of 2014 meaning this year's applicants will have only their final year there.
I'm sure the school would want you to disclose some info about this new building as it will attract prospective students who may have to choose between UoP and UCLA/UCSF as well as other prestigious schools on the east coast.
So please stop being a tease lol and tell us something.
I interviewed there 2 weeks ago and the faculty said the same thing. They said that the students next year will finish their 3rd year in the new building.
I walked by the location where they are building the new school, 5th and Mission, and it looks to be under construction. It will be right next to the Moscone Center where they hold the annual CDA convention.
The new school's location will better suit the patients and students since there is easier access to public transportation.
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There's no way your daddy can provide quality treatment to 40-50 patients per day. It's impossible. There's no way one can treat that many people without rushing through, taking shortcuts, doing the minimum to get by, etc. and ultimately not providing the best possible care.
I used to shadow an associate dentist who produced $1 million in revenue for a practice. The buzz was that she was super fast as she spent no more than 30 minutes on a patient than the typical 45 min. When I observed her in action, she was awful as she quickly went through the motions to stay on schedule.
For example, for composite fillings, she would quickly drill a hole with an oversized round bit without regards to preserving as much of the tooth as possible and filling it quickly with composite material without regards to artistry. The patients thought she was great because they were in and out of the chair in a half hour. Now if the patients only knew how they were being treated as a money making object rather than a human patient. smh.
by "visiting" do you mean that you went and checked them out or did you interview at all of them this year?
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It might matter in some cultures or areas of the US, but for the vast majority... the school does not matter.
I have seen the same exact post in the dentist forum and they all agreed, which is much more valid as opposed to a bunch of predents saying what they think about school name.
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Further, in ShiftyPoptart's quote he compares his father to graduates from UCLA pediatrics. This implies his father is a pediatric dentist or works in a pedo clinic. In pediatrics 50-60 patients is completely within the realm of a days work... of course it is not all restorative, but lots of exams on finished hygiene patients.
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You were not too impressed with Columbia brotha?
or should I ask there were other schools that you were more impressed with
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There are flaws here. I doubt these big ego dentists in a forum who have the big school complex will admit that school does not matter. Also, predents are a more indicative group of the general population since we see it from the perspective of a "patient" and not as a "dental provider" who more times than not have tunnel vision.
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Ok well if we look at things through the eyes of a patient or consumer... i can think of at least 4 big things that patients care about more than the school name.
1. Location - Ever here the phrase in business "location, location, location"!!! Well guess what... it's true. If it is convenient and close to home, patients will go there. People are not going to drive 45 minutes away just to see a dentist that went to a "better" school.
2. Reputation - When people ask about your dentist they don't say "what school did he/she go to?" They actually ask questions like "How do you like him/her?" or "Do they do good work?" People want a dentist they can know and trust. The reputation for quality of work in the community far outweighs where they went to school.
3. Personality - People will keep coming to you if they like you. People will tell their friends about you if they like you. Patients will never leave if they like you. One of the first rules of sales... people buy from whom they like... not where they went to school.
4. Friendliness of Office Staff - If your office has a reputation for being friendly and helpful, guess what people like that. Going to the dentist is nerve racking enough for most people, so a friendly office staff makes people feel comfortable... not a diploma on the wall from the Ivy league.
All these things are much more important than the "name" of the school. That is why a ****ty dentist from Podunk University can be a millionaire, if he has the right business skills. Hell this list could go on and on. I would even say that patients would prefer a dentist who gives better shots of lido, has TVs in the office, is next to their favorite restaurant, supports the community... blah blah blah... all this is probably more important to patients then name of school.
Also, in 2009 there were 4873 dental grads. However, if we add up all the seats of the "good" schools (Penn, Harvard, Columbia, and i will even toss in UCLA) we only have 316 grads. That only amounts to 6% of all dental grads. Which means that the vast majority of cities in the US probably wont even have access to a brand name dentist. Especially considering that 3 of those schools are in the new england area and many grads will end up practicing locally. Furthermore, i would venture to say that at least 1/3 of these dentists will end up in specialties or academics/research and never make it as a GP. Which brings the number even lower.
So we can see that between geographic distribution and location of brand name dentists, the people that "might" actually care is only a small fraction of the population of the US. Simply because of availability to a brand name dentist isn't even a viable option.
The only other schools that might have some brand credibility are NYU for the northeast and maybe USC for the west coast. Even schools like UCSF or UOP, which are well known for quality programs, patients have never even heard of.
Lastly, I have shadowed about 8 different dentists/specialists and i have asked each of them how often their school comes up.... they have all responded with only a handful of times in their entire career. Because nobody wants to be the douchebag that is name dropping their school. In the end, dentistry is a business and business is all about marketing, relationships, and about 100 other things besides the name on your diploma.
But hey, if it helps you fall asleep at night... then keep thinking the name on your degree will make a difference.
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Totally agree. Even as a patient, I never even thought about the school that my dentist went to. I've lived all over the country (Alaska, Orlando, Northern Idaho, etc...) and we've always chosen our dentists by either their websites or from a referral.
It seems that in most areas (granted, I've never lived in the fore-mentioned Hamptons or Beverly Hills) that people are more concerned with how the office looks (is it nice, new technology, clean, etc), the friendliness of the staff, the trustworthiness of the dentist, and the price of the procedures (especially with regards to cleanings, etc).
Not saying that the "brand name" is completely irrelevant... Just saying that I think it's pretty extreme to say that's the most important thing. For MOST areas/patients in the US, I think it wouldn't even make the top 10 list of most important factors in choosing a dentist.
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In state is going to be hard to turn down...I am going to look hard into buying a house or condo during school so not only would I have in state tuition, but I could take advantage of some local connections I have with realtors. Some of the properties being sold are soooo cheap and in pretty good areas. This would make, for me, UIC a top choice.
I also really like Midwestern-IL...quarter system with an integrated systems approach mixed with PBL. Awesome area, too. I also think seeing the startup of a dental school's clinic would give me some unique insight into starting my own practice later on.
Penn would be impossible to turn down, if the dean's scholarship was thrown in the mix. I love the idea of 4 years of clinical involvement, amazing community service opportunities (the bus and HIV clinic!!), so many abroad locations to choose from, dual degree programs (Wharton might be in the mix soon!!), amazing research, amazing faculty, and 3 honors programs to choose from. I am especially looking hard at Penn because, with the new P/F board exams, I believe Penn would offer the most/best extracurricular involvement to separate myself from other candidates for potential specialization.
I also really like Midwestern-IL...quarter system with an integrated systems approach mixed with PBL. Awesome area, too. I also think seeing the startup of a dental school's clinic would give me some unique insight into starting my own practice later on.
Penn would be impossible to turn down, if the dean's scholarship was thrown in the mix. I love the idea of 4 years of clinical involvement, amazing community service opportunities (the bus and HIV clinic!!), so many abroad locations to choose from, dual degree programs (Wharton might be in the mix soon!!), amazing research, amazing faculty, and 3 honors programs to choose from. I am especially looking hard at Penn because, with the new P/F board exams, I believe Penn would offer the most/best extracurricular involvement to separate myself from other candidates for potential specialization.
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I always care about what school my health care provider graduated from. It speaks volumes.
For example, if I visited a physician and saw a LECOM degree on his wall, I would freakin' bolt out the door lol. I would assume that he was a dumb f**k who couldn't get into a real med school and had to settle for the worst of the worst of D.O. schools. I would know it was because he was a B/C student meaning he only learned 70-80% of the material in bio/chem/ochem/physics in college. I would also assume he probably just "got by" in med school by only learning 70-80% of the material and thus, he couldn't possibly know all his **** and be 100% competent in diagnosing everything and providing the best treatment to his patients. Why do you think there are so many patients who are misdiagnosed every day?
On the other hand, if I walked into a physician's office who graduated from Harvard med then I would know he was super smart with A's in college (meaning he knew 95+%), probably learned his **** in med school, along with learning the latest research and developments in his field at his fine prestigious school, and I would have full confidence in him.
On another note, my ochem lab teacher told me once he visit a dentist for the first time and when he told the dentist that he was a Ph.D student in ochem, the dentist said he barely passed ochem in college and didn't learn a thing. Upon hearing this, he thought the same as I mentioned in two paragraphs above and he walked out the door lol.
How about the random dude who needs a root canal and searches on a list of dental providers from a web site and decides to choose a dentist because of his prestigious school (even though the other providers happen to be more skilled with this procedure). The doctor from the prestigious school does a good job with the RCT, gains a new patient for life and more future patients through referrals of his friends. That's called ca-ching! All this by opting not to attend a generic brand name school.
I understand the other stuff (office location, friendliness of staff, etc) is important, but with all else being equal, the prestige of a school will come into play.
For example, if I visited a physician and saw a LECOM degree on his wall, I would freakin' bolt out the door lol. I would assume that he was a dumb f**k who couldn't get into a real med school and had to settle for the worst of the worst of D.O. schools. I would know it was because he was a B/C student meaning he only learned 70-80% of the material in bio/chem/ochem/physics in college. I would also assume he probably just "got by" in med school by only learning 70-80% of the material and thus, he couldn't possibly know all his **** and be 100% competent in diagnosing everything and providing the best treatment to his patients. Why do you think there are so many patients who are misdiagnosed every day?
On the other hand, if I walked into a physician's office who graduated from Harvard med then I would know he was super smart with A's in college (meaning he knew 95+%), probably learned his **** in med school, along with learning the latest research and developments in his field at his fine prestigious school, and I would have full confidence in him.
On another note, my ochem lab teacher told me once he visit a dentist for the first time and when he told the dentist that he was a Ph.D student in ochem, the dentist said he barely passed ochem in college and didn't learn a thing. Upon hearing this, he thought the same as I mentioned in two paragraphs above and he walked out the door lol.
How about the random dude who needs a root canal and searches on a list of dental providers from a web site and decides to choose a dentist because of his prestigious school (even though the other providers happen to be more skilled with this procedure). The doctor from the prestigious school does a good job with the RCT, gains a new patient for life and more future patients through referrals of his friends. That's called ca-ching! All this by opting not to attend a generic brand name school.
I understand the other stuff (office location, friendliness of staff, etc) is important, but with all else being equal, the prestige of a school will come into play.
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I agree insofar as I feel as though the prestige of the school can only help you. It's never going to hurt, of course. I think this whole conversation is silly honestly, and the answer is quite intuitive if we are being honest with ourselves. Yet on the other hand, those in the know might be smart enough to actually stay away from a general dentist who's graduated from certain prestigious schools i.e., Harvard. I know I would!
(Pro tip for people interested in "prestige" and applying to Tufts Dental. People from New England generally regard Tufts as a university which is damn near Ivy League status. Being from Boston, I know that people are actually very impressed when they hear a doctor/dentist has graduated from Tufts. Just an FYI in case you plan on going there and maybe practicing in the area. I'm not sure how the school is perceived elsewhere. )
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Majority of your clients (unless its such a small or affluent area) will not know or care where you went to school. Most people outside of the medical/dental profession don't know or care where any of their practitioners went to school. As long as they get quality care, feel no pain, and dont have to pay a lot of out of pocket costs then you will be fine.
OK, so far people have been talking about how prestige of the school would affect the business of the dentist. Another angle worth considering is the affect prestige would have on getting into a good residency. I heard that the boards are going to pass/fail. Wouldn't that mean that other factors, besides board scores, like the prestige of the dental school and extracurricular activities would be more important than they have previously been? Imagine if the DAT went to pass/fail, if that were the case it would be hard for students going to less prestigious schools to prove that they have learned as much as anyone going to any of those schools.
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The several dentists I have shadowed have received D's in organic chem. They are very successful now and do great work.
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I'm not trying to be mean here but I sure hope you practice in the Philly area after dschool where Temple is well known. My classmate told me he was talking recently to a dentist who lives out in the SF bay area. The dentist graduated from Loma Linda, been practicing for 15+ years, and does general dentistry and orthodontics. He said the conversation went something like this:
Friend: I had an interview the other day with Temple.
Dentist: What school?
Friend: Temple
Dentist: Huh?
Friend: Temple dental school
Dentist: Where's that?
Friend: In Philadelphia
Dentist: Oh...
At this point my friend was thinking WTF and concluded there's no way he'll attend Temple, even though it's a great clinical program, because he'll be at severe disadvantage when he returns home to practice after dschool. I agree, this dentist has been around for 15+ years practicing in a major metropolitan area of the country and he didn't even know where Temple was located, let alone even knowing it had a dental school.
I let you in on a little secret..........most veteran dentists could care less about dental schools that are thousands of miles away. This is more of a reflection on the ignorance/lack of caring on the dentist than it is the prestige of temple. Completely meaningless....
My mentor has been a dentist for 25 years, and has only been asked a few times where he went to dental school. Personal reputation matters much more....
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Im not from philly, and name is not a huge priority for me. I honestly believe NYUs NAME is bigger almost every school out there ( with the exception of Harvard,Columbia, UCLA). I have plenty of family that live overseas, and they only recognize a few names. If I wanted a name, I would have attended NYU ( even though it might not be recognized as great in the dental world, it will be to any patient you speak to). At the end of the day, if name matters to you, then you should feel free to choose a school off of that. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here. And for the record, I never heard of Loma linda before applying to dental school.
I
iralex801
Some patients are going to care and some aren't. It's up to you to decide if the majority of patients care or not. I think prestige only matters if your trying to open a certain practice in a affluent area.
For example, I think prestige only matters if your planning to open a million dollar practice that only does cosmetic dentistry in upper east side NY.
If your going to open a practice and do the usual cleanings, root canals, etc for the general population. I really doubt it matters. Some of the people your providing services for probably didn't even go to college.
For example, I think prestige only matters if your planning to open a million dollar practice that only does cosmetic dentistry in upper east side NY.
If your going to open a practice and do the usual cleanings, root canals, etc for the general population. I really doubt it matters. Some of the people your providing services for probably didn't even go to college.
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As long as I get a great dental education that's all I care about. If patients want to go to doctors from specific schools more power to them. I am happy to treat patients who want quality care. I'm a person... i'm not a BMW or Mercedes LOL After I graduate I don't intend to be judged by my patients on my education. If they doubt my skills that will probably be an issue regardless of where I got my education.
PS some schools don't live up to the hype of their name. A few schools that have really "awesome names" tend to produce subpar dentists. I wont name names but there are a good examples out there. Also unless my patients want to assume my student loans, I don't intend on satisfying their whims. 🙂
PS some schools don't live up to the hype of their name. A few schools that have really "awesome names" tend to produce subpar dentists. I wont name names but there are a good examples out there. Also unless my patients want to assume my student loans, I don't intend on satisfying their whims. 🙂
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Exactly my point and why this dentist is confined to the Cali area.
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Penn also only ranks their top 10 students; everyone else is #11. I would assume any Penn student 1-11, is going to be successful in getting specialty interviews. But, just my luck..even more competition for people wanting to go to Penn lol.
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Dude, this dentist is not confined to anywhere. Sure he chooses to practice in SoCal, but he could practice anywhere and do more than fine.
The vast majority of dschools nobody has ever heard of, nor do most patients care. Even if they asked the conversation would go like this:
Patient: So what dental school did you go to?
Dentist: I went to ABC University in XYZ city.
Patient: I have never heard of them, is it a good school?
Dentist: Yes it is actually very highly regarded in the dental community.
Patient: Oh thats great!
Not to mention, approximately 30% of the US actually has a BS/BA degree and only 10% with a Masters or Doctorate. So the other 70% of the population could probably careless about name of a college. And even then, most of the 30% would careless too.
Your PhD friend is a very bad example and definitely does not reflect the general population. Furthermore, if you were to ask any random 10 dentists to solve a synthesis reaction in ochem... i would be willing to bet that 9/10 would have no idea how to do it. That is because ochem really has no bearing on practicing dentistry in the real world. But is there to be a weed out course and keep up with standard medical prereqs.
YoHomey, i do hear what you are saying and i think your argument is valid, it is just simply not the truth in the real world. Prestige might be a factor in upper, upper class areas and maybe in asian areas (from what i have heard), but other than that... nobody really cares. Again, could it hurt? No, but the degree to which it helps is almost negligible.
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Pretty much.
I am a practicing dentist of 25 years. I am just trolling on my son's account.....who is applying to DS this year.
This is my opinion......take it for what you think it is worth. I certainly do not have a horse in this race.
Patients do not give-a-rat's-ass where you went to school. In 25 years, I have had, maybe 2-3 patients ask where I went to school. And, this was done, purely in the context of them already liking me.....and just wanting to get to know me better.
BTW....My office is an affluent community in southern California.
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Patients rarely ever ask which school you come from. Ultimate summed it nicely in his post the reasons why.
Want people think you went to Columbia? Take a CE course at Columbia, blow up that certificate and post it on your wall in your practice. Most people will actually think you went to Columbia for dental school if they just passed by.
The only people who will care are:
1. You.
2. Your parents.
3. The girl/guy you're trying to sleep with.
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Hrmmm, me thinks a dentist of 25 years would not be familiar with trolling
I may be old.......but I'm hip.
DUDE !
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Likely troll dentist is a troll dad who is experienced in the art of trolling
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Aren't you a bit old to be hanging out on the Pre-Dental subforum lol? What are you like 55 years old?
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1. Baylor (Its cheap)
2. Roseman (loved the school and system)
3. ASDOH (Have family in AZ and getting a MPH would be cool)
2. Roseman (loved the school and system)
3. ASDOH (Have family in AZ and getting a MPH would be cool)
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A dentist I know went to Temple and practices in a big city out west. Based on the type of practice he owns (super fancy/high end/cosmetic), size of his house, and type of car he drives, I can assure you, he is doing just fine.
I'm going to have to agree with UltimateHombre on this one. People really don't care where their dentist went to school.
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i shadowed my own dentist and a lot of the patients asked me what i was doing, etc. after talking to them, the vast majority of them were stunned to find out dentists had to go to school for four years AFTER college at all...trust me, no one even cares where the dentist went to school. it was in a pretty small town in texas, but still. i say go somewhere cheap! 🙂
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Haha. We all gotta be a little f*cked up to want to go to school for this long.
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I am 49.
Yea I am a bit old to be hangin' with you youngin's, but, I am having fun watching my son go through the application process. We never had this internet-thingy in my day. We just waited by the mailbox on Dec. 1. By the way........I remember that day well. When the mailtruck came around the corner I was almost paralyzed with excitment. When the mailman handed me the days mail....my DS's logo was immediately evident on the top letter ! DAMN....that was a good day. I still have that letter.
Enjoy the process. If you are lucky.....someday you too, will be trolling your son's (or daughter's) SDN account !
I agree 100% with what Yohomey is speaking here.
If you can, definitely go to a more prestigious school (if its right for you).
I know so many ppl that pick their dentist or physician with where they graduated from as a factor.
I also, am guilty of it myself. If I am looking on the net for a new provider and I see someone from UCLA vs Howard, guess who I am picking???
Also, yes some people don't care where you have gone but I think the amount of people who DO care should be considered because this is your future and where you go will ultimately direct what opportunities/ connections you get and don't get.
From my personal experiences, when people hear a schools name that they never heard of, they attribute the reason as to why they never heard of it because its probably NOT that good. We ALL do this, even if you don't want to admit it.
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Haha, the above post is so true. I mentioned the school Western at my VCU interview, and the administrators and dental student hosts just shook their head and were like "You're looking at what school? Huh?"
However, no name (locally) does not automatically give it a bad name.
However, no name (locally) does not automatically give it a bad name.
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Exactly what my employer said... she has only been asked a couple of times by patients about where she went to school. In fact, she doesn't even hang her DDS up in the office.
Although that IS the truth, from my experience, the conversation topic does pop up every now and then when it treads along education, grad school options, or anything along those lines. There is one more thing that I would like to point out, which I believe everyone is skimming over...
Every practice has a website that gives a full background of the docs working there and in this day and age where everyone yelps down the food places to eat. You can be sure most patients have researched a thing or two about you before deciding to come there...
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My bosses display their degrees and certifications on the walls of narcissism in our consultation room, and also sometimes alumnae gear. I'd say 9/10 new patients always mention how impressed they are, or talk about their dental education. I personally think a school's reputation allows an additional sense of trust with your new patients (they're going to be more inclined to trust your skills, if they know you went to a great school. Of course, in addition to the positive reviews and personal referrals). I would certainly have my worries if I saw a low(er)-end school's degree on my dentist's wall.
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But it's already agreed upon that patients don't really know what a "great" school is in terms of dentistry. They'll see a more prestigious school on your diploma but not realize that it has no correlation with how strong the dental education you received was.
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Perception is reality. Many patients will think you're da man if you graduated from a brand name school.
Thus, if I had my choice I would attend in this order:
Top Choice: Harvard
Second Choice: Columbia/Penn
Third tier: UCLA/UCSF/Pacific
Fourth tier: NYU
Next tier: Every other school
Near the bottom of the barrel: Howard/Meharry
Bottom of the abyss: LECOM
