Top psychiatry programs with research and biological focus

[Polycherry]

Hey I'm an undergrad from India and have a knack for research. I wish to do my residency in the US. What are the psych programs that have more of a biological touch or more focussed on research?
Also, I'm willing to do a PhD. Is a PhD suggested before or after the residency? Which one sounds more practical?
I am very much interested in translational psychiatry and I couldn't find anything more than this.
https://med.uth.edu/psychiatry/research/translational-psychiatry/ in Houston
and, http://www.imprs-tp.mpg.de/ an IMPRS Germany

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[SmallBird]

Hey I'm an undergrad from India and have a knack for research. I wish to do my residency in the US. What are the psych programs that have more of a biological touch or more focussed on research?
Also, I'm willing to do a PhD. Is a PhD suggested before or after the residency? Which one sounds more practical?
I am very much interested in translational psychiatry and I couldn't find anything more than this.
https://med.uth.edu/psychiatry/research/translational-psychiatry/ in Houston
and, http://www.imprs-tp.mpg.de/ an IMPRS Germany

I don't mean to be snarky but there is definitely a lot more that you could find using google! There are more than a dozen programs with strong biological psychiatry research programs that create opportunities for this type of engagement during residency. Try "psychiatry residency program research track" in google and basically the first 25 hits are links to great programs.

Splik may be right about doing the PhD; I'd also emphasize the need to have every other aspect of your application be excellent (great letters from US or UK based academic physicians, good board scores, great med school performance (which may be harder for them to interpret, so make it easy an be in the top 5%), and coming off well in your interview).

I was talking to a research track program director recently and I don't think you need to have a ton of publications but 2 or 3 that show you have talent and potential for success are important also. Good luck.

 

[Polycherry]

if you want to have a career in academic psychiatry and match at one of the top programs for this kind of thing I would highly recommend doing a PhD ideally in the US but other countries like the UK would work too. At the very least doing a post doc would help. Doing the PhD before graduating medical school would be best but may not be possible for you. if you are going okay with going to one of the less competitive powerhouses in the Midwest then a few years of research in the US as a post doc may suffice if you are working with good people who will write you a strong letter of recommendation and get you done clinical experience. you should also aim to do 2 clinical electives in the US as a medical student. remember residency training is mostly clinical so you will still be evaluated on your ability to survive on the wards etc. please search my previous threads on this kind of thing

I am doing my MBBS now and I plan to write my steps in my final year. So that gives me a 7 year validity window for me to finish my PhD. Isnt such a long gap after my undergraduate course a negative thing for an application? Some friend of mine told me that the lesser the time gap, the better

 

[whopper]

There's going to be some things that might throw you off even if you find a program with a research and bio focus.

There are some programs with very great research with faculty doing heavy research on the more physiological elements of psychiatry, and then you can't get any exposure to them. The best psychiatrists I've seen know the physiological but also the psychotherapy stuff.

But let's get onto that. I've seen many psychiatrists claim they're more psychotherapist than biological psychiatrist. Okay fine but the more time I spent with some of them the more that really meant "I don't know much about the meds and just spout out BS psychotherapy that has no basis in evidenced based and rational psychotherapy."

E.g. a psychiatrist tells his patient who suffers from PTSD that she needs to confront the guy to get over the rape. Yeah 100 lb PTSD pt confronting guy with a gun, history of violence, history of repeated rapes, oh yeah there's no danger factor in that to be considered?

Real psychotherapists studied it quite extensively for years and aren't people who happened to graduate from a psychiatry resident but still are terrible psychiatrists but simply because they are licensed and their skills are really no better than a Jimmy the Bartender, that doesn't make them a "psychotherapist" in school of thought. It makes them a BS artist.

Point is you might need to look more deeply than to just find a program has good research and what some will claim to be a bio focus.

 

[splik]

I am doing my MBBS now and I plan to write my steps in my final year. So that gives me a 7 year validity window for me to finish my PhD. Isnt such a long gap after my undergraduate course a negative thing for an application? Some friend of mine told me that the lesser the time gap, the better

It would be best to complete your PhD before finishing your MBBS if possible. a PhD in the UK is 3-4 years, in the US it is typically 5 years (though some people do complete it in less time or longer). Another advantage of building up your research portfolio is you can then apply for a green card which will open more doors for you. It will be harder to get a green card though as you are Indian and so it will take longer. Years out of from your medical degree can be a negative if you don't have any recent clinical experience.

I'm not sure what your 7 year window is about - if you complete all of the USMLEs they are valid indefinitely. However it actually makes more sense to do them closer to when you apply as scores keep increasing and your scores might look worse if you do them years before applying for residency. Also if I see someone has done their usmles very recently having done a PhD and did very well, I will have a bit more confidence in their medical knowledge and ability to cope on the wards than someone who did them years ago.

Also you ideally want to do your PhD or postdoc at the department you would be most interested in matching at as this would make you a known entity and you would have people vouch for you. But for the best departments you really have to be truly brilliant. Do you have any research experience currently? You will need research experience and publications most likely to get into a decent PhD program or get a postdoc in the first place. And of course you want to see whether you actually like research - the idea of it is cooler than actually doing it

 

[Mocaman]

It would be best to complete your PhD before finishing your MBBS if possible. a PhD in the UK is 3-4 years, in the US it is typically 5 years (though some people do complete it in less time or longer). Another advantage of building up your research portfolio is you can then apply for a green card which will open more doors for you. It will be harder to get a green card though as you are Indian and so it will take longer. Years out of from your medical degree can be a negative if you don't have any recent clinical experience.

I'm not sure what your 7 year window is about - if you complete all of the USMLEs they are valid indefinitely. However it actually makes more sense to do them closer to when you apply as scores keep increasing and your scores might look worse if you do them years before applying for residency. Also if I see someone has done their usmles very recently having done a PhD and did very well, I will have a bit more confidence in their medical knowledge and ability to cope on the wards than someone who did them years ago.

Also you ideally want to do your PhD or postdoc at the department you would be most interested in matching at as this would make you a known entity and you would have people vouch for you. But for the best departments you really have to be truly brilliant. Do you have any research experience currently? You will need research experience and publications most likely to get into a decent PhD program or get a postdoc in the first place. And of course you want to see whether you actually like research - the idea of it is cooler than actually doing it

It would be best to complete your PhD before finishing your MBBS if possible. a PhD in the UK is 3-4 years, in the US it is typically 5 years (though some people do complete it in less time or longer). Another advantage of building up your research portfolio is you can then apply for a green card which will open more doors for you. It will be harder to get a green card though as you are Indian and so it will take longer. Years out of from your medical degree can be a negative if you don't have any recent clinical experience.

I'm not sure what your 7 year window is about - if you complete all of the USMLEs they are valid indefinitely. However it actually makes more sense to do them closer to when you apply as scores keep increasing and your scores might look worse if you do them years before applying for residency. Also if I see someone has done their usmles very recently having done a PhD and did very well, I will have a bit more confidence in their medical knowledge and ability to cope on the wards than someone who did them years ago.

Also you ideally want to do your PhD or postdoc at the department you would be most interested in matching at as this would make you a known entity and you would have people vouch for you. But for the best departments you really have to be truly brilliant. Do you have any research experience currently? You will need research experience and publications most likely to get into a decent PhD program or get a postdoc in the first place. And of course you want to see whether you actually like research - the idea of it is cooler than actually doing it

Willing to do a phd..right..willing, that makes sense.
What about staying in india? Being a psychiatrist there? My guess is you're gonna return there after training anyways...

 

[splik]

Willing to do a phd..right..willing, that makes sense.
What about staying in india? Being a psychiatrist there? My guess is you're gonna return there after training anyways...

not sure what your xenophobic comments are about but the overwhelming majority of docs who come to the US to do their residency training stay afterwards, and if they don't it's often not by choice. If someone wants to seriously have an academic career in translational neuroscience they have little choice but to leave India and the US is one of the better places to come for that, as it's pretty easy to get a postdoc or do a research fellowship (probably easier than anywhere else in the world). Also it's not like american psychiatrists are lining up to do research, and US biomedical science research relies heavily on foreigners coming here - biomedical science would fall apart otherwise.

 

[lymphocyte]

It would be best to complete your PhD before finishing your MBBS if possible. a PhD in the UK is 3-4 years, in the US it is typically 5 years (though some people do complete it in less time or longer). Another advantage of building up your research portfolio is you can then apply for a green card which will open more doors for you. It will be harder to get a green card though as you are Indian and so it will take longer. Years out of from your medical degree can be a negative if you don't have any recent clinical experience.

I'm not sure what your 7 year window is about - if you complete all of the USMLEs they are valid indefinitely. However it actually makes more sense to do them closer to when you apply as scores keep increasing and your scores might look worse if you do them years before applying for residency. Also if I see someone has done their usmles very recently having done a PhD and did very well, I will have a bit more confidence in their medical knowledge and ability to cope on the wards than someone who did them years ago.

Also you ideally want to do your PhD or postdoc at the department you would be most interested in matching at as this would make you a known entity and you would have people vouch for you. But for the best departments you really have to be truly brilliant. Do you have any research experience currently? You will need research experience and publications most likely to get into a decent PhD program or get a postdoc in the first place. And of course you want to see whether you actually like research - the idea of it is cooler than actually doing it

@splik, Might I tag another question onto OP's? How important is it, really, to have a PhD for an academic career in psychiatry? I don't know the ins-and-outs of T32/K grants, etc. but I was under the impression that quality publications trump all, and getting a PhD was a means to that end (unless the PhD also bestowed some kind of pedigree advantage). I thought a reasonable career path would be strong application -> strong academic programme -> publications during residency -> junior faculty position, etc. If it were important (to tick a checkbox, for example), would it ever make sense to do a PhD after residency (perhaps in England or Australia, where PhD's take less time--and at least in Australia, I'd still be able to practice while I studied)? I'm not looking to conquer the world, but I'd love to practice in an academic setting when I can spend some spare some time to research (and I'm not even sure what the appropriate balance would be either).

 

[Mocaman]

not sure what your xenophobic comments are about but the overwhelming majority of docs who come to the US to do their residency training stay afterwards, and if they don't it's often not by choice. If someone wants to seriously have an academic career in translational neuroscience they have little choice but to leave India and the US is one of the better places to come for that, as it's pretty easy to get a postdoc or do a research fellowship (probably easier than anywhere else in the world). Also it's not like american psychiatrists are lining up to do research, and US biomedical science research relies heavily on foreigners coming here - biomedical science would fall apart otherwise.

Uh huh

 

[splik]

@splik, Might I tag another question onto OP's? How important is it, really, to have a PhD for an academic career in psychiatry? I don't know the ins-and-outs of T32/K grants, etc. but I was under the impression that quality publications trump all, and getting a PhD was a means to that end (unless the PhD also bestowed some kind of pedigree advantage). I thought a reasonable career path would be strong application -> strong academic programme -> publications during residency -> junior faculty position, etc. If it were important (to tick a checkbox, for example), would it ever make sense to do a PhD after residency (perhaps in England or Australia, where PhD's take less time--and at least in Australia, I'd still be able to practice while I studied)? I'm not looking to conquer the world (or the APA), but I'd love to practice in an academic setting when I can spare some time to research (and I'm not sure what the appropriate balance would be either).

It isn't necessary to have a PhD to have an academic career in psychiatry, but if an IMG seriously wants to match into a research track at one of the most competitive programs then yes a PhD is a very good idea, especially if you are coming from an LEDC. Additionally, it will be much easier for someone to establish a research career and get awards if they have a PhD. Actually, depending on the area of the PhD, some may come out of it with few if any publications (though of course the more high quality publications one gets the better) because some fields take years to produce results etc. The fact is that the MD/PhD has become the clearest route to a career as a physician scientists. It isn't the only route but it is certainly the preferred route (infuriatingly as most of the people who state so do not have PhDs themselves...)

I am talking about people who want to have a serious academic career. Having some "spare time to do research" as you put is is not what I call an academic career, and is increasingly difficult for clinical faculty to do with some exceptions (some departments expect everyone to do some research or be involved). There is also nothing stopping one from being a co-investigator in a clinical trial or some other study, but this is a far cry for having a research career - where the typical model is 80/20 research/clinical and you increasingly have to fund your position. If you're not looking to "conquer the world" as you put it, you're not going to get very far in academic.

Only the craziest people do PhDs after residency training, but it does happen (some of my friends have done so). Matt State, who is chair of psych at UCSF did his PhD after residency and fellowship, and stanford has a specific program for residents to do a PhD during residency. I believe Mt Sinai has a 3-year PhD program during psych residency for those who don't already have it as part of their research track, and I know yale has allowed this (a PhD, not a 3-yr program).

If you just want to dabble in research (which is what it sounds like) it would be a complete waste of time to do a PhD.

 

[lymphocyte]

It isn't necessary to have a PhD to have an academic career in psychiatry, but if an IMG seriously wants to match into a research track at one of the most competitive programs then yes a PhD is a very good idea, especially if you are coming from an LEDC. Additionally, it will be much easier for someone to establish a research career and get awards if they have a PhD. Actually, depending on the area of the PhD, some may come out of it with few if any publications (though of course the more high quality publications one gets the better) because some fields take years to produce results etc. The fact is that the MD/PhD has become the clearest route to a career as a physician scientists. It isn't the only route but it is certainly the preferred route (infuriatingly as most of the people who state so do not have PhDs themselves...)

I am talking about people who want to have a serious academic career. Having some "spare time to do research" as you put is is not what I call an academic career, and is increasingly difficult for clinical faculty to do with some exceptions (some departments expect everyone to do some research or be involved). There is also nothing stopping one from being a co-investigator in a clinical trial or some other study, but this is a far cry for having a research career - where the typical model is 80/20 research/clinical and you increasingly have to fund your position. If you're not looking to "conquer the world" as you put it, you're not going to get very far in academic.

Only the craziest people do PhDs after residency training, but it does happen (some of my friends have done so). Matt State, who is chair of psych at UCSF did his PhD after residency and fellowship, and stanford has a specific program for residents to do a PhD during residency. I believe Mt Sinai has a 3-year PhD program during psych residency for those who don't already have it as part of their research track, and I know yale has allowed this.

If you just want to dabble in research (which is what it sounds like) it would be a complete waste of time to do a PhD.

I do enjoy research, but I'm more interested in just staying in an academic environment, where there's a natural community of people engaging and discussing the latest literature, teaching, etc. Maybe a clinical track would be more appropriate. Or maybe just an adjunct position. Or an instructor. Anyways. Not an academic career. Not a PhD. Got it.

OP, I found these threads helpful as well:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/becoming-an-assistant-professor-early.985265/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...tions-professor-vs-clinical-professor.880258/