Touchy subject... ethnicity

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Knickerbocker

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When you are half European white and half Asian Indian, what do you put down on applications? Technically, it should just be caucasian, but, 80 years ago, the US gov changed their definition of the term in order to deny citizenship to Indians.

Should I pick one or select "other?" I hate how schools claim that they do not discriminate on a basis of race, etc., but they sure are eager to know this information.
 
^^that information is for statistical analysis outside of the admissions process. many public universities are compelled to collect this as per university-wide policy
 
Knickerbocker said:
When you are half European white and half Asian Indian, what do you put down on applications? Technically, it should just be caucasian, but, 80 years ago, the US gov changed their definition of the term in order to deny citizenship to Indians.

Should I pick one or select "other?" I hate how schools claim that they do not discriminate on a basis of race, etc., but they sure are eager to know this information.
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i am half asian and half caucasion. well, actually, half pacific islander. i chose the asian box instead of caucasian, thinking it would help with acceptance with the whole minority thing. lol. i dont think it mattered.
 
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I'm half middle eastern (even though I'm the whitest person you will ever see lol). I'm putting middle eastern (or "other" if thats not an option). I dont think being a minority will ever hurt you, but if a school's trying to diversify, it may help!
 
Knickerbocker said:
Should I pick one or select "other?" I hate how schools claim that they do not discriminate on a basis of race, etc., but they sure are eager to know this information.
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Some schools maintain an affirmative action policy. For undergrad, i applied to a nearby school and was rejected. Another member of my graduating class (who is African-American) also applied. He had lower test scores (significantly lower) and a lower GPA and he was accepted. I think the ethnicity questions mostly have to do with policies like this (racial quotas, etc.)
 
yeah...racial quotas suck, it'll just stigmatize all the minorities at your school as being there only because of the quota system.

so i guess marking that box depends on where you apply. if you apply to public schools whose states prohibit race in admissions by law (ie California -- admissions will delete all race identifying features of your personal statement and application before it reaches the adcom), there's no benefit to marking anything.

private schools are another story...however, don't let the term "minority" fool you. Whites are a minority in california.

i think the bottom line is...just pick the one you're most comfortable with and don't worry about it. If you get rejected because of that tiny piece of information, you probably wouldn't want to attend that school anyway.
 
Affirmative action was just challenged in the court system, no more than a month ago... i believe the person suing the school won. So I would say that there is no such thing as gender or racial quotas but then i would be lying to myself...haha
 
Ray1234 said:
Sorry. I dont want to be rude here but what is so touchy about it?
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Because Asians and whites already make up the majority of pharmacy students and other groups might get an advantage at some schools solely due to ethnicity. If they get to my application after looking at 100 whites and Asians, they may pass me over simply because I've exceeded their quota for those groups. It's a dirty little thing that we aren't supposed to openly discuss in a politically correct society.
 
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How old are you??? If you are above the age of 6 - you have probably answered this question already... If you decide to change your ethnicity along the way (according to official records - not literally) - it is fraud. It really doesn't matter for general purposes - but if you were white for the first 22 years of your life - but became a minority to lower your EFC for federal grants or the such - its fraud.

Do not fuss over whether or not you will get a "leg up" on the competition. Do well in your courses, slam the PCAT, get good LORs - and none of that ethnicity will matter...

For the record - I am Jewish / White - Which makes me North African, Middle Eastern, American... what do I qualify for???

~above~
 
aboveliquidice said:
How old are you??? If you are above the age of 6 - you have probably answered this question already... If you decide to change your ethnicity along the way (according to official records - not literally) - it is fraud. It really doesn't matter for general purposes - but if you were white for the first 22 years of your life - but became a minority to lower your EFC for federal grants or the such - its fraud.

Do not fuss over whether or not you will get a "leg up" on the competition. Do well in your courses, slam the PCAT, get good LORs - and none of that ethnicity will matter...

For the record - I am Jewish / White - Which makes me North African, Middle Eastern, American... what do I qualify for???

~above~
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Um yeah your wrong... so hush. If your half Caucasian and half pacific islander and you put Caucasian down your whole life, it is not fraud to put pacific islander...since you are pacific islander, I can't do this im pure white...haha, but I would put pacific islander, anything to give yourself a heads up on the competition.
 
PharmDFisher said:
Um yeah your wrong... so hush. If your half Caucasian and half pacific islander and you put Caucasian down your whole life, it is not fraud to put pacific islander...since you are pacific islander, I can't do this im pure white...haha, but I would put pacific islander, anything to give yourself a heads up on the competition.
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You're an idiot and a bigot. There is no such thing as "pure white".

Furthermore, if you were a "pure white" but born on a Pacific island, you ARE a Pacific Islander, no matter what tone your skin may be.

Ethnicity isn't a touchy subject until tools like PharmDFisher attach color to it.
 
aboveliquidice said:
How old are you??? If you are above the age of 6 - you have probably answered this question already... If you decide to change your ethnicity along the way (according to official records - not literally) - it is fraud. It really doesn't matter for general purposes - but if you were white for the first 22 years of your life - but became a minority to lower your EFC for federal grants or the such - its fraud.

Do not fuss over whether or not you will get a "leg up" on the competition. Do well in your courses, slam the PCAT, get good LORs - and none of that ethnicity will matter...

For the record - I am Jewish / White - Which makes me North African, Middle Eastern, American... what do I qualify for???

~above~
Click to expand...

I've got a 99 PCAT and 3.9 GPA, but I still feel that quotas matter. Do they dislike caucasians or Asians more? You can pretend that ethnicity doesn't matter, but it really does. Take Texas Southern University for example - they claim that they don't discriminate on the basis of race, but 99% of the school is of one ethnicity. I know lots of white students who are applying there and probably won't get into that pharmacy school because they are the wrong color. Things like this really make it a touchy subject.

Do Ashkenazis really make the Mid East claim? In any case, the US gov includes North Africa/Middle East in the caucasian category.
 
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I'm thinking about this the wrong way. Most pharmacy school classes are primarily Asian and caucasian. So, statistically, I'm well off. I'll just flip a coin or something and pick for the applications.

I don't want a "leg up" over anyone - I'd prefer it if they didn't ask for ethnicity at all.
 
Knickerbocker said:
I've got a 99 PCAT and 3.9 GPA, but I still feel that quotas matter. Do they dislike caucasians or Asians more? You can pretend that ethnicity doesn't matter, but it really does. Take Texas Southern University for example - they claim that they don't discriminate on the basis of race, but 99% of the school is of one ethnicity. I know lots of white students who are applying there and probably won't get into that pharmacy school because they are the wrong color. Things like this really make it a touchy subject.

Do Ashkenazis really make the Mid East claim? In any case, the US gov includes North Africa/Middle East in the caucasian category.
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The whole discussion is completely wrong. I dont think anybody will want to support your argument unless you provide some proofs to the forum.
By the way, with 3.9 GPA and 99% PCAT if you show some passion for pharmacy profession, you will get into a pharmacy school no matter you are a black or red or blue or white or amber yellow or maroon red or grass green or an alien.
 
Knickerbocker said:
I've got a 99 PCAT and 3.9 GPA, but I still feel that quotas matter. Do they dislike caucasians or Asians more? You can pretend that ethnicity doesn't matter, but it really does. Take Texas Southern University for example - they claim that they don't discriminate on the basis of race, but 99% of the school is of one ethnicity. I know lots of white students who are applying there and probably won't get into that pharmacy school because they are the wrong color. Things like this really make it a touchy subject.

Do Ashkenazis really make the Mid East claim? In any case, the US gov includes North Africa/Middle East in the caucasian category.
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Um, last time I checked middle east is not caucasian... North Africa ( tunisha, algeria, moroco, algeria, not lybia) is, but thats because its predominantly greek and spanish descendants...
 
ok situation here... black, african man...what ever you want to call him standing in a crowd of all white people... everyone same hight and weight and wearing the same clothes... you bring someone over that doesnt know anyone in the group and ask them to pick out the guy who does not belong and ask why doesnt he... do they say because hes black or because hes african
 
Ray1234 said:
The whole discussion is completely wrong. I dont think anybody will want to support your argument unless you provide some proofs to the forum.
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This is what I'm talking about when I say "touchy." Most people are afraid to discuss things like affirmative action because they don't want to be labeled as a racist. There shouldn't be anything "wrong" with talking about it.

I don't have proof for anything I mentioned except for the TSU statistics, so hopefully I'm wrong and I've just been listening to the news too much.

And, PharmDFisher, just go away, you aren't contributing anything to this.
 
Knickerbocker said:
I hate how schools claim that they do not discriminate on a basis of race...
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I like to think that the race/ethnicity of an applicant isn't a deciding issue, but unfortunately, it is, to a degree, a considered factor.

Short Story:

I know this guy, lets call him Joe, who always puts down "other" on applications that request racial information. To me, Joe, appears to be African-American; however, he would argue otherwise. His father is African-American and German while his mother is Hispanic, Irish, and African-American.

Joe bubbled "other" when he applied to med school and he was accepted. Joe is pretty much an average applicant with an average GPA and etc; however, according to Joe, it was his ethnicity as an "other" that granted him admission into med school.

(end of short story)

If I was half European white and half Asian Indian I would probably follow suit after Joe and fill in the bubble next to other (lol).
 
WELL if you subscribe to the out of africa theory of migration, we ALL should be marking african-american, or other.

we're all african in the end.

my point: racial disparities don't exist....it's economic disparities that HAPPEN to be by race. racial quotas assume that blacks/native americans are incapable or happened upon bad circumstances because of their race, whereas the reality is it's because of economic position in society alone.

specifically, racial quotas fail to work when you have a harvard educated upper class black man and a poor as **** white man who had to work his way through community college.
 
RobertZimmerman said:
Im pure awesome. What box do I check?
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Just do what I do... choose "other" then in the blank field, put "awesome" :laugh:
i wonder how the adcoms would react to that 😀

i just put No Answer on pharmcas though since it's optional. they'd probably be able to figure it out by my last name though. 🙄
 
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Some schools give preferential treatment to minorities, but also consideration to the underprivileged. Schools do value people from diverse backgrounds with varying language and cultural upbringings, so it's really more than just appearances. I agree with this sentiment, as multicultural pharmacists are important in serving the needs of many communities that would otherwise not have access to proper communication and healthcare.
 
I'm a black guy, and I'd like to believe I can get in without any academic welfare, for a lack of a better word, because my stats are competitive.
 
I went through 5 yrs of high school and three years of university here in Canada, never had I been asked once what my race is on an application.

Last summer we drove down to Seattle for shopping, and my friend got a speeding ticket with a box marked 'Asian'.

I think that really shocked us all 😕.... and i don't really think race should even be asked on an application. It should all be annoyomous so nobody is given preference due to family connection, wealth, or race. It should be based on your ability only.
 
Omegadramon said:
I'm a black guy, and I'd like to believe I can get in without any academic welfare, for a lack of a better word, because my stats are competitive.
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It's unfair to people such as yourself. As you mentioned in another thread, your PCAT score was over 90%. Based on your stats, you have a great chance of getting in. Sadly, some people out there will make unfair assumptions about why you got in.
 
Knickerbocker said:
It's unfair to people such as yourself. As you mentioned in another thread, your PCAT score was over 90%. Based on your stats, you have a great chance of getting in. Sadly, some people out there will make unfair assumptions about why you got in.
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For the most part, his peers, patients, and educators will see why he was admitted based upon the professionalism he exhibits.
 
ForcedEntry said:
Furthermore, if you were a "pure white" but born on a Pacific island, you ARE a Pacific Islander, no matter what tone your skin may be.
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I hesitate to enter this discussion, but I'm not sure that's true.

I'm from Hawaii, and I can tell you that people who are born in Hawaii are not considered Hawaiian. "Hawaiian" refers to race, not where a person was born (according to locals).

Is "Pacific Islander" different?
 
roka said:
I hesitate to enter this discussion, but I'm not sure that's true. I'm from Hawaii, and I can tell you that people who are born in Hawaii are not considered Hawaiian
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Nobody should hesitate, no need to be afraid. We should speak freely of these things in order to fix them. As it is, in the US, we have the same old racist system with a thin layer of equality painted on top. Everyone likes to admire that coating of paint but ignore the rotting wood underneath.

I hope I haven't offended anyone with this thread, that wasn't my intention.
 
Just say what you mean and be clear about. Affirmative action / preferences in hiring should not exist. It shouldn't matter what color you are or where you are from. Thats bull****. It should be the most qualified candidates only - that way (and assuming the policy is efficacious), people wouldn't look at a black/indian/asian/woman/insert minority here and say, "well there's another affirmative action student."

If someone who is Asian scores better than me, has a better GPA, etc. and he gets into a school where I don't, well then I guess he/she is more qualified and I should shut up about it. If it were the opposite situation and I wound up doing better than them, then I should get in over him/her.
 
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But at the same time, the most qualified don't always fit the molds of the population. Affirmative action in graduate schools is tailored to serve the needs of a diverse America that has long been ignored. Without this precedent, a lot of people are left behind, no matter how qualified the professional community is. The key is adaptability, and I don't think it's JUST race in terms of color, but of specific background. Accepting someone from a latino background who came from that environment who wants to go back and serve that community is a perfectly valid reason in my mind, assuming that he meet acceptable academic qualifications. Everyone seems to forget this part of pharmacy/medical school mission statements (whether it's the angry focus of equality and meritocracy, I do not know), as it's our duty to reach everyone in america to make sure they get adequate health care.
 
evilolive said:
But at the same time, the most qualified don't always fit the molds of the population. Affirmative action in graduate schools is tailored to serve the needs of a diverse America that has long been ignored. Without this precedent, a lot of people are left behind, no matter how qualified the professional community is. The key is adaptability, and I don't think it's JUST race in terms of color, but of specific background. Accepting someone from a latino background who came from that environment who wants to go back and serve that community is a perfectly valid reason in my mind, assuming that he meet acceptable academic qualifications. Everyone seems to forget this part of pharmacy/medical school mission statements (whether it's the angry focus of equality and meritocracy, I do not know), as it's our duty to reach everyone in america to make sure they get adequate health care.
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Letting a few minorities into graduate school doesn't make up for the lack of resources (eg, very crappy elementary and high schools) that the rest of them have to face. The needs of most are still ignored. What good is a pharmacist of a similar background if you can't afford to go see them anyway?

If we'd focus on the root of the problem in the first place, there wouldn't be a need for affirmative action. Affirmative action is a mere band-aid for something much deeper than a simple scratch.
 
Letting a few minorities into graduate school doesn't make up for the lack of resources (eg, very crappy elementary and high schools) that the rest of them have to face. The needs of most are still ignored. What good is a pharmacist of a similar background if you can't afford to go see them anyway?

If we'd focus on the root of the problem in the first place, there wouldn't be a need for affirmative action. Affirmative action is a mere band-aid for something much deeper than a simple scratch.
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I agree, it's an imperfect system for a much bigger issue, but on the other hand people are suffering regardless. Imperfect help is better than none at all. It's a catalyst for other changes to come. A lot of pharmacists that go back to those communities don't charge as much as many institutions do. It's that kind of giving back to the community that I think will start progress in fixing current minority community problems. Without AA, there's no break for anyone anywhere - everything becomes a self-perpetuating cycle of poverty and ignorance. It may be more "right" from an egalitarian point of view to remove AA, but what these people have to do to achieve equality can hardly be called "fair."
 
evilolive said:
I agree, it's an imperfect system for a much bigger issue, but on the other hand people are suffering regardless. Imperfect help is better than none at all. It's a catalyst for other changes to come. A lot of pharmacists that go back to those communities don't charge as much as many institutions do. It's that kind of giving back to the community that I think will start progress in fixing current minority community problems. Without AA, there's no break for anyone anywhere - everything becomes a self-perpetuating cycle of poverty and ignorance. It may be more "right" from an egalitarian point of view to remove AA, but what these people have to do to achieve equality can hardly be called "fair."
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I do acknowledge that minorities have to work harder to succeed in this country, so I understand where you're coming from.
 
Knickerbocker said:
If we'd focus on the root of the problem in the first place, there wouldn't be a need for affirmative action. Affirmative action is a mere band-aid for something much deeper than a simple scratch.
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Well said - AA does nothing but cripple the people it is intended to help. Its a broke system, but it is better than the alternative... this forum has had extensive discussions concerning this topic.
 
i'm confused...way back when, "black" was politically incorrect and "african american" was preferred. Now...it's the other way around? What the hey! can someone answer me that? i don't wanna mistakenly say something wrong
 
eelo said:
It might, depending on the context.

What would you call someone who was from South Africa?
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ok...that is a stupid question. I would call them black or African still... if someone is from the Congo do can you call them African...no duh Congo is in Africa..

and that guy up there talking about the minorities have less and what not...
whose fault is it they have less? And I'm not going to say there isn't disadvantages of being African or middle eastern, but be black right now in the united states isn't necessarily a good thing but it sure the hell isn't a bad thing. You hear about how Africans have been wronged, I'm sorry I wasn't alive during that era. And for me to pay for something that happened when I wasn't alive is a bit ******ed. Is it my fault that 1 and 3 black men will commit and be charged with a felony by the age of 18. Last time I checked no it wasn't. And to give minorities a racial preference because of hardship and what not, is a big problem. Oh well guess its better to be of a minority than to be smart these days. And know I'm not saying minorities can't be or are not intelligent.
 
PharmDFisher said:
ok...that is a stupid question. I would call them black or African still... if someone is from the Congo do can you call them African...no duh Congo is in Africa..

and that guy up there talking about the minorities have less and what not...
whose fault is it they have less? And I'm not going to say there isn't disadvantages of being African or middle eastern, but be black right now in the united states isn't necessarily a good thing but it sure the hell isn't a bad thing. You hear about how Africans have been wronged, I'm sorry I wasn't alive during that era. And for me to pay for something that happened when I wasn't alive is a bit ******ed. Is it my fault that 1 and 3 black men will commit and be charged with a felony by the age of 18. Last time I checked no it wasn't. And to give minorities a racial preference because of hardship and what not, is a big problem. Oh well guess its better to be of a minority than to be smart these days. And know I'm not saying minorities can't be or are not intelligent.
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It's America's fault that they have less because it's America that put them in the impoverished and disadvantaged position to begin with. I suppose you can make the case that poor people are lazy and they choose to be that way, but if you were stuck in a system your entire life where it seemed like everything worked against you, wouldn't you want to give up? It's a self perpetuating cycle of ignorance and learned helplessness. And no it's not specifically your fault that people go to jail, but imagine yourself growing up in an environment as such where desperation becomes a way of life. Fear makes people do horrible things, no? Imagine the psychology principle of stereotype threat in action: if someone told you that you're going to end up a certain way your entire life or if you perceive that that's all you'll ever achieve, you're more likely than not to become that expected image. Few break out of that mind trap, but it's hardly a supportive environment.

Yes it is unfair to "pay" for sins of the past, but to be frank, the past isn't over with. Racism is still alive and well in America, but it has taken to different forms as well as its effects. Problems and aftershocks just don't disappear within a generation, and while it doesn't seem pleasant to make AA take place, how specifically do health care professionals plan to help communities that don't speak various languages or are abandoned by current existing protocol? How does the community plan to reach out to those that aren't a part of the mainstream system? They deserve the same rights as everyone else. In a purely egalitarian society this wouldn't be the case, but let's face it - America is anything but egalitarian in reality; it's merely so in "convenient" ideals.
 
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