Tourniquet Lower extremity regional

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

kmurp

Junior Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2005
Messages
491
Reaction score
120
Points
4,676
I'm a bit confused on the proper approach to regional anesthesia for lower limb surgery and tourniquet pain. Let's say we are doing an ankle fracture for 90 minutes to two hours. Thigh tourniquet. I do a popliteal and adductor block with proposal MAC. Should I expect to reliably not have issues with the tourniquet that will cause me to need to put in an LMA?
If so, would I need to do a femoral plus very proximal sciatic instead? Even then I could miss the posterior cutaneous nerve of the thigh and will miss the lateral femoral cutaneous.
 
I'm a bit confused on the proper approach to regional anesthesia for lower limb surgery and tourniquet pain. Let's say we are doing an ankle fracture for 90 minutes to two hours. Thigh tourniquet. I do a popliteal and adductor block with proposal MAC. Should I expect to reliably not have issues with the tourniquet that will cause me to need to put in an LMA?
If so, would I need to do a femoral plus very proximal sciatic instead? Even then I could miss the posterior cutaneous nerve of the thigh and will miss the lateral femoral cutaneous.

general anesthesia reliably prevents tourniquet pain and you can then include whatever block is appropriate for postop surgical pain, but that's just me
 
Agree but we are competing for an ortho center with another group that does exclusively regional. In addition, I think this new center will be a bit limited in PACU size so PACU bypass would be good. Lastly, the would be no holdups waiting for me to be available for induction with crna.
 

Members do not see ads. Register today.

Agree but we are competing for an ortho center with another group that does exclusively regional. In addition, I think this new center will be a bit limited in PACU size so PACU bypass would be good. Lastly, the would be no holdups waiting for me to be available for induction with crna.

You don't take patients that have had sedation to PACU? How awake during the surgery are they expected to be? Because thigh tourniquet pain is almost impossible to cover up with anything less than neuraxial anesthesia, except with maybe a lumbar plexus + classic sciatic.
 
You're also losing out on a lot of billing by using the regional as your surgical anesthetic instead of GA + block for post-op analgesia.
 
We take sedated patients (e.g. ISB shoulders) direct to second stage. Somehow this other group is getting away with fem sciatic blocks plus sedation with a thigh tourniquet. At least one of their guys is doing anterior sciatics which don't ( I think ) get the posterior cutaneous nerve of the thigh. That got me wondering if it even matters if one does a proximal sciatic block for these. Some of the stuff I'm hearing at meetings implies that the pain from the tourniquet is ischemic and not well covered with a block anyway.
If I had more experience with proximal sciatic blocks perhaps I wouldn't care as much..
 
A light LMA general with good regional and the pt should be ready to go to stage 2 by the time you finish your paperwork at the bedside in PACU.
 
You're also losing out on a lot of billing by using the regional as your surgical anesthetic instead of GA + block for post-op analgesia.
Yes though we make up for it a bit by owning our U/S machine and getting a payment for that. In addition, it helps at times because I'm sometimes occupied and cannot be available for induction in an efficient manner if GA is needed.
 
A light LMA general with good regional and the pt should be ready to go to stage 2 by the time you finish your paperwork at the bedside in PACU.
True but there are occasional outliers that would have nausea issues or slow wake ups.
 
Yes though we make up for it a bit by owning our U/S machine and getting a payment for that. In addition, it helps at times because I'm sometimes occupied and cannot be available for induction in an efficient manner if GA is needed.

This doesn't make a lot of sense. For starters, it doesn't make a lick of difference who owns the U/S machine. You get to bill 2 units for use and interpretation of U/S image. Doesn't matter whether it's your machine or the facility's. Unfortunately many payers will only pay for 1 U/S charge even if you use it for multiple blocks on the same pt. Remember, fem block is 7 units and sciatic is 7 units. That is a crap ton of money you are missing out on when you use the blocks as your surgical anesthetic.
 
We get paid a facility component for the block from our payers because we own the machine. I imagine that is less that the block fee we would get if we did a GA though. I do it because I feel it's better for the patient mostly. I also think it's more efficient.
 
Isn't there something that says blocks placed preop can't be for postop pain regardless? Or is that just a change coming down the pipe?

I remember that being talked about a year or so ago but it never materialized and I hope never will because that is straight pants-on-head ******ed and bad for patient care.
 
We get paid a facility component for the block from our payers because we own the machine. I imagine that is less that the block fee we would get if we did a GA though. I do it because I feel it's better for the patient mostly. I also think it's more efficient.

Well didn't know that and thanks for informing me. I'm really curious how much that is and how it factors into your billing because it would have to be distinct from your professional fee. For me personally, I would much prefer to have GA and an analgesic block to a surgical block and sedation.
 
If they are taking 2h for an ankle fracture do you really want to compete for their business?
I hear you. They don't really: I was using the two hour number to stress my original question about tourniquet pain. And we probably would still pursue that as we are losing some work from the hospital this year and don't want to compound it by losing this ortho as well.
 
Remember, fem block is 7 units and sciatic is 7 units.

What you get paid for a block is contract dependent. None of our blocks are paid on a per unit basis. It's kinda like how some groups get paid for a labor epidural based on the time it is running and others get a flat fee no matter what the duration.

That said, they do reimburse nicely.
 
What you get paid for a block is contract dependent. None of our blocks are paid on a per unit basis. It's kinda like how some groups get paid for a labor epidural based on the time it is running and others get a flat fee no matter what the duration.

That said, they do reimburse nicely.

Out of curiousity, how many units would your blocks be worth based on what your contract rates for blocks are compared to your blended unit value (not looking for dollar amount, just wondering if works out close to the 7 unit value they have if you were billing that way). My old group billed for blocks based on their unit value.
 
Back to he original question. Tourniquet pain is time dependent mostly. Te block density can extend the time and the pts tolerance of discomfort can as well. It's never a good idea to tell a pt that will have a 90-120 min thigh tourniquet that you will not need to put them to sleep. But that being said, with a good block you should be able to skip PACU, which means the pt meets all criteria. I do this very frequently. And the. Using staff loves it because they can get the pt out of the facility sooner as well. With a good block you need very little anesthetic. The problem I see with many anesthesiologist ( I don't work with midlevels) is that they run the gas of propofol too deep for someone that has no surgical pain, just tourniquet pain. With a good block, my Des is usually around ET 4.0, depending on age of the pt. Also, I prefer Des for these cases (as I do for all cases). I believe it has greater analgesic properties than Sevo. It allows me to get away with less.
If I were doing the case you describe, an ankle fx with a 90min tourniquet, I would do a popliteal and saphenous block with an LMA general. I'd give 50mcg of fentanyl at induction and probably nothing more. I'd run my Des at 5.0 for incision and then start to trend down to mid 3's for the last 20 min unless the tourniquet was breaking through. In that case I'd turn up the gas. No narcs for this. As soon as the tourniquet comes down I turn off the gas and leave the flows at 1 lpm. As the splint is going on I crank the flows to burn off the gas and I give 2-3cc of propofol. If resp rate is greater than 12 I might give a small dose of fentanyl. This will not slow wake up of discharge. I can usually skip PACU with this approach. The key to all of this is a good surgical block.
 
Back to he original question. Tourniquet pain is time dependent mostly. Te block density can extend the time and the pts tolerance of discomfort can as well. It's never a good idea to tell a pt that will have a 90-120 min thigh tourniquet that you will not need to put them to sleep. But that being said, with a good block you should be able to skip PACU, which means the pt meets all criteria. I do this very frequently. And the. Using staff loves it because they can get the pt out of the facility sooner as well. With a good block you need very little anesthetic. The problem I see with many anesthesiologist ( I don't work with midlevels) is that they run the gas of propofol too deep for someone that has no surgical pain, just tourniquet pain. With a good block, my Des is usually around ET 4.0, depending on age of the pt. Also, I prefer Des for these cases (as I do for all cases). I believe it has greater analgesic properties than Sevo. It allows me to get away with less.
If I were doing the case you describe, an ankle fx with a 90min tourniquet, I would do a popliteal and saphenous block with an LMA general. I'd give 50mcg of fentanyl at induction and probably nothing more. I'd run my Des at 5.0 for incision and then start to trend down to mid 3's for the last 20 min unless the tourniquet was breaking through. In that case I'd turn up the gas. No narcs for this. As soon as the tourniquet comes down I turn off the gas and leave the flows at 1 lpm. As the splint is going on I crank the flows to burn off the gas and I give 2-3cc of propofol. If resp rate is greater than 12 I might give a small dose of fentanyl. This will not slow wake up of discharge. I can usually skip PACU with this approach. The key to all of this is a good surgical block.
I do the same except I go with sevo and blow it off with nitrous the last 15 minutes. Too many crazy dez wakes up, esp in the young adult.
 
This is the way to go. 15 mins of N2O and a good block and you could wheel them straight from the OR to their car.

Back to he original question. Tourniquet pain is time dependent mostly. Te block density can extend the time and the pts tolerance of discomfort can as well. It's never a good idea to tell a pt that will have a 90-120 min thigh tourniquet that you will not need to put them to sleep. But that being said, with a good block you should be able to skip PACU, which means the pt meets all criteria. I do this very frequently. And the. Using staff loves it because they can get the pt out of the facility sooner as well. With a good block you need very little anesthetic. The problem I see with many anesthesiologist ( I don't work with midlevels) is that they run the gas of propofol too deep for someone that has no surgical pain, just tourniquet pain. With a good block, my Des is usually around ET 4.0, depending on age of the pt. Also, I prefer Des for these cases (as I do for all cases). I believe it has greater analgesic properties than Sevo. It allows me to get away with less.
If I were doing the case you describe, an ankle fx with a 90min tourniquet, I would do a popliteal and saphenous block with an LMA general. I'd give 50mcg of fentanyl at induction and probably nothing more. I'd run my Des at 5.0 for incision and then start to trend down to mid 3's for the last 20 min unless the tourniquet was breaking through. In that case I'd turn up the gas. No narcs for this. As soon as the tourniquet comes down I turn off the gas and leave the flows at 1 lpm. As the splint is going on I crank the flows to burn off the gas and I give 2-3cc of propofol. If resp rate is greater than 12 I might give a small dose of fentanyl. This will not slow wake up of discharge. I can usually skip PACU with this approach. The key to all of this is a good surgical block.
I do the same except I go with sevo and blow it off with nitrous the last 15 minutes. Too many crazy dez wakes up, esp in the young adult.
 
Out of curiousity, how many units would your blocks be worth based on what your contract rates for blocks are compared to your blended unit value (not looking for dollar amount, just wondering if works out close to the 7 unit value they have if you were billing that way). My old group billed for blocks based on their unit value.

It'd be somewhere in the neighborhood of 9-12 units depending on payer.
 
Nice negotiating 👍👍

anesthesia contracts are kinda weird and it's not always an apples to apples comparison between them, especially when you have a large multi location practice that includes a significant amount of pain. Wrapping up the pain contract into the OR stuff can make for some odd rates on individual things.
 
I do the same except I go with sevo and blow it off with nitrous the last 15 minutes. Too many crazy dez wakes up, esp in the young adult.
I haven't had one in 10yrs. No ****. Give some propofol at the end of the case.
 
This is the way to go. 15 mins of N2O and a good block and you could wheel them straight from the OR to their car.
I also haven't turned the nitrous on in 10yrs except for inhalation inductions.
 
I do these cases frequently with a high lateral popliteal block (mid-thigh) and a Femoral block, I use 30 ml of Bupivacaine 0.5% in each block + propofol infusion.
Make sure the patient and nurses understand that the leg will be numb for 24 hours or so.
No issues with tourniquet pain.
 
Well didn't know that and thanks for informing me. I'm really curious how much that is and how it factors into your billing because it would have to be distinct from your professional fee. For me personally, I would much prefer to have GA and an analgesic block to a surgical block and sedation.
I checked the numbers for machine billing with our office. The reimbursement for this has eroded over the past few years. Amount varies by payor from $30 to $240. Clearly doing the block for postop pain with a GA is more $. Depending on your payors and the number of blocks you do, machine purchase still could be worth it over the life of the machine.
 
I do these cases frequently with a high lateral popliteal block (mid-thigh) and a Femoral block, I use 30 ml of Bupivacaine 0.5% in each block + propofol infusion.
Make sure the patient and nurses understand that the leg will be numb for 24 hours or so.
No issues with tourniquet pain.
Thank you for the feedback. That's a lot of marcaine though. Have you tried this with an adductor instead of femoral?
 
Adductor canal blocks are not good enough for thigh tourniquet pain.
By the way I have used this dose hundreds of times without any problem.
The toxic doses of local anesthetics we are taught are based on IV injection in animals with very little clinical correlation.
 
Adductor canal blocks are not good enough for thigh tourniquet pain.
By the way I have used this dose hundreds of times without any problem.
The toxic doses of local anesthetics we are taught are based on IV injection in animals with very little clinical correlation.
Thanks. You are using a bit more volume than I am on the femoral. Are you hoping to get the lateral femoral cutaneous nerve as well with your femoral block?
 
lateral femoral cutaneous nerve as well with your femoral block?

The LFC is pretty easy to visualize on U/S. It lies within the belly of the TFL muscle that is just lateral to the sartorius. Very easy to squirt a little local on it on your way out from the femoral block. Also a nice technique when used alone for those thigh muscle biopsy cases.
 
Thanks. You are using a bit more volume than I am on the femoral. Are you hoping to get the lateral femoral cutaneous nerve as well with your femoral block?
IMHO high volume produces a denser block, and a high volume femoral block is basically a fascia iliaca block that could theoretically extend proximally to the lumbar plexus and cover the lateral femoral cutaneous and the obturator nerves as well as the femoral.
By the way, today I did an AKA on a very sick guy using this same block combination (mid-thigh sciatic + femoral), went flawlessly.
 
IMHO high volume produces a denser block, and a high volume femoral block is basically a fascia iliaca block that could theoretically extend proximally to the lumbar plexus and cover the lateral femoral cutaneous and the obturator nerves as well as the femoral.
By the way, today I did an AKA on a very sick guy using this same block combination (mid-thigh sciatic + femoral), went flawlessly.

Agree that this is a great block combo for ankle. I have tried other things (saphenous at many points) and keep coming back to this. I would be scared to use that much local but I agree with your skepticism of the current toxic limits. I would do 25ml 0.5% bupi diluted to 30ml for pop-sci and i would do 15 diluted to 20 for femoral. total of 40ml 0.5%
 
I would personally rather not have a totally dead leg for 24hrs.
I'm not criticizing the approach. It would Pst definite.y get the job done.
 
Top Bottom