Touro-CA vs Western-CA

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do_medschool

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Hello,

Let me preface by saying I know there are many threads out there comparing the two but those are awfully negative in comparison to what I saw when I went to my interview.

It seemed like Touro-CA got their rotation sites under control. So that's not really a concern for me anymore.

Location isn't really a factor to me. My family's literally half way between both schools lol...

I do want to specialize, so to me, it's basically coming down to which would be the best curriculum and resources for boards, particularly USMLE. And which ones have the best connections to university residency programs, not private hospitals/community hospital. Unless there's something else I'm missing?

Anyway, if there's anyone who's a current student and can provide better insight, I'd greatly appreciate it!

Thanks!!


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any info you'd like to offer as support to your statement


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I've heard terrible things about TouroCA from several people. Poor faculty and admin, a constantly changing curriculum, school cares mostly about making money, rotation sites possibly being lost to CA Northstate

The school bought into WesternU's OPTI and hasn't setup any of their own residencies, while WesternU setup pretty much all of the CA AOA residencies.

WesternU has its fair share of problems and will gear you towards primary care, but in comparison I'd call WesternU's problems more like "nuisances" than actual problems. Yea there's a primary care focus, yea you have to drive around LA for every rotation, yea there's a cranial week, IPE, etc etc so just extra baggage.

But Touro CA actually has fundamental problems from what I've heard. This is anecdotal from a few students but I've been on SDN for a while and have never once heard of people speaking good about Touro CA.

If you wanna specialize, study hard, be independent (don't depend on the school teaching you board material only), conduct research.
 
it's basically coming down to which would be the best curriculum and resources for boards, particularly USMLE

Touro-CA does horrible for prepping you for boards. There is a current student in the school specific thread that says this flat out, but tries to spin it as a good thing because "they get so much early clinical exposure they kill it on rotations"...... that's not a good thing.

And which ones have the best connections to university residency programs

No DO school has this, even the state programs. If you want this then go MD.
 
Here is that student's review of TUCOM:

"Hello! Touro OMS III here.

Different people have different attitude about this school. For me personally, I am 11/10 satisfied with it, I think the experience I’ve had here is significantly better than I could have had at any other school, and I am beyond grateful I ended up here.

From what I’ve seen there are 2 (often overlapping demographics) that tend to dislike the school.

1) People who hate osteopathic manipulation and do not believe it should be taught in schools.

2) Gunners who to whom gunning is the end all be all of life.

If you fall into either of those, you probably don’t want to go here.

Beyond the awesome location (Mare Island, where over half the students live, unlike Vallejo is a safe quiet natury friendly communal neighborhood, and basically the only affordable one like that in the Bay Area), there are quite a few strong positives about the school.

General Strengths of the school:

The school has a very focused ostteopathic emphasis. Some osteopathic schools are more allopathic and spend very little time on osteopathic work or integrating the principles into the curriculum. Many of the faculty and administration are passionate of maintaining an osteopathic identity to the school. Some students came there for that reason, while others realized they had a deep love for osteopathic manipulation from exposure to this emphasis, and of course a minority regretted this emphasis. There is a lot of fabulous support for OMM, and many students I know at other DO schools (who are passionate for OMM) are basically pissed off they never went here when we’ve compared notes on the OMM programs.

If you take advantage of it and make the effort, a lot of what the OMM program gives is basically magic for 3rd and 4th year, and I cannot count how many people were blown away by what it allowed them to do during clinical years (and many of our long time attendings are comfortable referring tricky cases to the Touro students).

The student base is extremely close and supportive (in other words we are not at a gunner school). On many exams, we’ve gotten through from other students going out of their way big time to help each other, most of the class is on extremely friendly terms with each other, and we can often have fun parties or bonding activities that don’t actually need alcohol to have everyone relax enough to vibe and have fun (although that’s not to say we are opposed to it..).

The administration from my perspective is super cool. They will listen to complaints and suggestions you have, and they go out of their way to open doors for you so that you can succeed or do beneficial things in addition to the normal medical school experience. As far as I can tell, that is not the norm for administrations.

The faculty are also very passionate about supporting their students and go way over the top to support and help their students succeed. Some of the lecturers are also very good. They will also give you a lot of time outside of class to help you succeed.

Give or take all lectures are recorded so you can watch them at home on 2x (or faster with a chrome plugin 😛).

We have a very good anatomy program (most schools have significantly less anatomy than me do) and the lab is well ventilated. This might seem like a trivial details, but insufficiently ventilated anatomy labs are a large problem for many individuals I have spoken with.

This school is supportive of holistic practices. For example, we got in the news for having an elective that teaches anatomy through yoga (soooo many facebook shares you have no idea…), there is a weekly meditation class and an integrative medicine elective for interested students.

The school puts a fairly large emphasis on training you to be primary care physicians. As a result, we tend to have a lot of labs and education to work with all that stuff (which is actually turning out to be really helpful for 3rd year shelf exams), and we perform better on rotations. A lot of medical students aren’t really prepped for the clinical years, so as a result they struggle on rotations and I think there is some on going debate in the medical community of how much more it needs to be taught pre-clinically, but our school already does it a lot.

I do not have a good comparison of how it’s done at other places, but our school is invested in the students succeeding and has a lot of support systems in place to address all the issues which could commonly come up. From what I’ve seen, they’ve gone far beyond the duty I would expect a school to do in order to help medical students succeed.

The new system clinical distinction system for 3rd year gives an absolutely amazing degree of flexibility for students and ability to succeed as they want to as a physician. I feel very lucky to be in the first class to get it.

The global health program (where you spend a month in a foreign country like cambodia, ethiopia or taiwan practicing medicine) is pretty awesome and available to anyone who wants to do it.

Overall, I feel confident in generalizing that the students here are MUCH happier than students at a typical medical school.

Debatable Weaknesses of the school:

Touro is one of the most competitive DO schools in the country (due to location). As a result, many excellent candidates I would view as perfect fits for the school are not able to get in.

The school is fairly small, so certain resources you would expect to be present at a large school aren’t there. I actually like the small feel because it’s much more informal and allows much greater flexibility, but many things you would normally expect a large institution to have (ie our gym is functional but quite small) aren’t here.

The school is technically Jewish. In reality that doesn’t mean much, but on a practical level:

1) We get different holidays (pro in my opinion)
2) You are not allowed to use club funds for providing non kosher catered food on campus.
3) All the food in the cafeteria is kosher (so no pork basically).
4) There are lots of free jewish dinners/religious services provided and typically some type of jewish ceremonial thing at each assembly we have.
5) I have asked a lot of people and no one has been able to give me a clear answer on if the Jewish name Touro is pronounced Tour-Ooh or Tuh-Row. (people use both, the former is probably safer at interviews).

We bought the historical buildings from the navy and as far as I understand there are various agreements on how much they can be renovated (historical character needs to be maintained), so the campus is not super pretty.

The school is less board focused than other schools, and emphasizes teaching you useful stuff besides busting you case every day non stop to study for tests (thus happier students). A lot of the random stuff we learn ends up being tested on Comlex so we score a bit above average on it, but if we grilled non stop for boards, given the average MCAT of our school (before they switched to new mcat, we were the only DO school to break a 30 average), we probably do a lot better. On the other hand, we aren’t prepared well for USLME (which matters less now due to merger) and we tend to do much better on Comlex 2. At the end of the day, we have a good match list since the non boards part of preclinical is great preparation for years 3 and 4, and thus there are much better letters evals and rotation interviews.

Politically the climate is fairly liberal (bay area medical school). I like it but I have heard conservative students complain.

School is more open than most schools to non traditional applicants.

The school is very open to changing and improving (both from the faculty/admin debating it and from students proposing ideas), so there are often new programs and curriculum changes introduced, and as far as I can tell, the school is a lot more awesome than it was 4 years ago when I initially decided I had to go here.

Students frequently complain about the school health insurance plan. If you are too lazy to find an alternative option you may have dissatisfaction here.

Parts of the osteopathic program (the advanced useful OMM) require you to either have some natural sensitivity or a willingness to practice and quiet your mind. That is a good life skill to have, but if you don’t have it and don’t want to learn it, some of the Osteopathic manipulation in 2nd year will not be your cup of tea, although you aren’t really penalized for lacking sensitivity it in the grades, it’s just more really frustrating to not be able to do what a lot of other people can.

I really like my 3rd year rotation schedule and think I have it much better than most people I know at other schools, but unlike most schools we do not have an affiliated teaching hospital (way too much competition for sites in the bay area), and as a result we have to split into a lot of different groups (which is super sad because we all got super close in the first 2 years). The rotation experience is slightly different, although still cool and you just need to make sure you get the site that fits for you. There is a lottery to select everything afterwards. I am not positive, but I believe almost all of the class got their first or second choices for rotation sites as only 10 people were asking to trade sites once it was worked out.

Parts of Vallejo have crime, but crime on Mare Island is almost non existent.

Objective Weaknesses of the school:


There is a degree of bureaucratic disorganization with the school, which I believe partly comes from the fact we are partially managed by Touro New York, and amongst other things, from my inquiries the time zone difference actually makes things very complicated. Every person I’ve spoken to has a tale or two of something frustrating happening (ie. if you don’t hear back in a few months, you should make sure your application is in the correct pile). I am yet to hear of any issues that were serious problems however.

The pathology program really needs to be supplemented with Pathoma, and I like many wish I had realized this early on (pathology is hard to teach, and pathoma just does it so perfectly…).

The mosquitos here kind of suck, leave actually irritating bites and can bite through clothing. There is due to a nasty asian species that can only live in this specific biome. The mosquitos aren’t unmanageable, and don't carry diseases, but for some reason this year there have not been very many of them, and they are honestly my least favorite thing about this school.

I will admit in writing this I am super biased towards this school. In the past the only reason I paid for college was because you had to to get the degree, but in Touro’s case, I actually feel like the education I am getting is basically worth what I am paying for the degree. I also probably forgot a few pro/cons but that was everything off the top of my head and a pretty good list."

I have bolded the things I think are major red flags. The bolded and underlined are even bigger flags and the one part with all three bolded, underline, and italics, is a huge red flag. Remember, this is all coming from a student who loves this school "11/10", the people who aren't so biased have even less nice things to say.
 
WesternU has much stronger clinical affiliations. That was the impression I got from a handful of TouroCA students I shared some rotation sites with.

With that said, this will come at a price. WesternU has a mandatory OMM rotation. If OMM is not your thing, then I'd make sure you understand what you getting yourself into. Another thing to consider is that at WesternU shelf exams are taken two at a time and sometimes 2 months removed from the corresponding rotation (third year is divided into 4 3-month blocks. you take the shelf exams at the end of the block AT SCHOOL!)
 
Touro-CA does horrible for prepping you for boards. There is a current student in the school specific thread that says this flat out, but tries to spin it as a good thing because "they get so much early clinical exposure they kill it on rotations"...... that's not a good thing.



No DO school has this, even the state programs. If you want this then go MD.

PCOM does... ish. Many of our good hospitals are teaching hospitals for Jefferson. Booyahhh
 
PCOM does... ish. Many of our good hospitals are teaching hospitals for Jefferson. Booyahhh

They are affiliated teaching sites but they aren't the university hospital. They still are community programs or communiversity programs. No DO school has a direct connection to a university level teaching hospital. CUSOM has a few students rotating at WakeMed but that's as close as it gets.
 
This is easy. Napa wine vs, well, Paso Robles wine? Mexican food vs, um, Mexican food?

Hhhmm. This is harder than I thought.

Our own doctor is a Western grad. We love the guy.


Hello,

Let me preface by saying I know there are many threads out there comparing the two but those are awfully negative in comparison to what I saw when I went to my interview.

It seemed like Touro-CA got their rotation sites under control. So that's not really a concern for me anymore.

Location isn't really a factor to me. My family's literally half way between both schools lol...

I do want to specialize, so to me, it's basically coming down to which would be the best curriculum and resources for boards, particularly USMLE. And which ones have the best connections to university residency programs, not private hospitals/community hospital. Unless there's something else I'm missing?

Anyway, if there's anyone who's a current student and can provide better insight, I'd greatly appreciate it!

Thanks!!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
I've heard terrible things about TouroCA from several people. Poor faculty and admin, a constantly changing curriculum, school cares mostly about making money, rotation sites possibly being lost to CA Northstate

The school bought into WesternU's OPTI and hasn't setup any of their own residencies, while WesternU setup pretty much all of the CA AOA residencies.

WesternU has its fair share of problems and will gear you towards primary care, but in comparison I'd call WesternU's problems more like "nuisances" than actual problems. Yea there's a primary care focus, yea you have to drive around LA for every rotation, yea there's a cranial week, IPE, etc etc so just extra baggage.

But Touro CA actually has fundamental problems from what I've heard. This is anecdotal from a few students but I've been on SDN for a while and have never once heard of people speaking good about Touro CA.

If you wanna specialize, study hard, be independent (don't depend on the school teaching you board material only), conduct research.

Thanks for your response! I'll definitely keep what you said in mind.


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Touro-CA does horrible for prepping you for boards. There is a current student in the school specific thread that says this flat out, but tries to spin it as a good thing because "they get so much early clinical exposure they kill it on rotations"...... that's not a good thing.



No DO school has this, even the state programs. If you want this then go MD.

Thanks for your input! I'll definitely keep this in mind... Unfortunately, I didn't get a MD offer in California and I don't want to reapply which is why I'm going DO.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
Here is that student's review of TUCOM:

"Hello! Touro OMS III here.

Different people have different attitude about this school. For me personally, I am 11/10 satisfied with it, I think the experience I’ve had here is significantly better than I could have had at any other school, and I am beyond grateful I ended up here.

From what I’ve seen there are 2 (often overlapping demographics) that tend to dislike the school.

1) People who hate osteopathic manipulation and do not believe it should be taught in schools.

2) Gunners who to whom gunning is the end all be all of life.

If you fall into either of those, you probably don’t want to go here.

Beyond the awesome location (Mare Island, where over half the students live, unlike Vallejo is a safe quiet natury friendly communal neighborhood, and basically the only affordable one like that in the Bay Area), there are quite a few strong positives about the school.

General Strengths of the school:

The school has a very focused ostteopathic emphasis. Some osteopathic schools are more allopathic and spend very little time on osteopathic work or integrating the principles into the curriculum. Many of the faculty and administration are passionate of maintaining an osteopathic identity to the school. Some students came there for that reason, while others realized they had a deep love for osteopathic manipulation from exposure to this emphasis, and of course a minority regretted this emphasis. There is a lot of fabulous support for OMM, and many students I know at other DO schools (who are passionate for OMM) are basically pissed off they never went here when we’ve compared notes on the OMM programs.

If you take advantage of it and make the effort, a lot of what the OMM program gives is basically magic for 3rd and 4th year, and I cannot count how many people were blown away by what it allowed them to do during clinical years (and many of our long time attendings are comfortable referring tricky cases to the Touro students).

The student base is extremely close and supportive (in other words we are not at a gunner school). On many exams, we’ve gotten through from other students going out of their way big time to help each other, most of the class is on extremely friendly terms with each other, and we can often have fun parties or bonding activities that don’t actually need alcohol to have everyone relax enough to vibe and have fun (although that’s not to say we are opposed to it..).

The administration from my perspective is super cool. They will listen to complaints and suggestions you have, and they go out of their way to open doors for you so that you can succeed or do beneficial things in addition to the normal medical school experience. As far as I can tell, that is not the norm for administrations.

The faculty are also very passionate about supporting their students and go way over the top to support and help their students succeed. Some of the lecturers are also very good. They will also give you a lot of time outside of class to help you succeed.

Give or take all lectures are recorded so you can watch them at home on 2x (or faster with a chrome plugin 😛).

We have a very good anatomy program (most schools have significantly less anatomy than me do) and the lab is well ventilated. This might seem like a trivial details, but insufficiently ventilated anatomy labs are a large problem for many individuals I have spoken with.

This school is supportive of holistic practices. For example, we got in the news for having an elective that teaches anatomy through yoga (soooo many facebook shares you have no idea…), there is a weekly meditation class and an integrative medicine elective for interested students.

The school puts a fairly large emphasis on training you to be primary care physicians. As a result, we tend to have a lot of labs and education to work with all that stuff (which is actually turning out to be really helpful for 3rd year shelf exams), and we perform better on rotations. A lot of medical students aren’t really prepped for the clinical years, so as a result they struggle on rotations and I think there is some on going debate in the medical community of how much more it needs to be taught pre-clinically, but our school already does it a lot.

I do not have a good comparison of how it’s done at other places, but our school is invested in the students succeeding and has a lot of support systems in place to address all the issues which could commonly come up. From what I’ve seen, they’ve gone far beyond the duty I would expect a school to do in order to help medical students succeed.

The new system clinical distinction system for 3rd year gives an absolutely amazing degree of flexibility for students and ability to succeed as they want to as a physician. I feel very lucky to be in the first class to get it.

The global health program (where you spend a month in a foreign country like cambodia, ethiopia or taiwan practicing medicine) is pretty awesome and available to anyone who wants to do it.

Overall, I feel confident in generalizing that the students here are MUCH happier than students at a typical medical school.

Debatable Weaknesses of the school:

Touro is one of the most competitive DO schools in the country (due to location). As a result, many excellent candidates I would view as perfect fits for the school are not able to get in.

The school is fairly small, so certain resources you would expect to be present at a large school aren’t there. I actually like the small feel because it’s much more informal and allows much greater flexibility, but many things you would normally expect a large institution to have (ie our gym is functional but quite small) aren’t here.

The school is technically Jewish. In reality that doesn’t mean much, but on a practical level:

1) We get different holidays (pro in my opinion)
2) You are not allowed to use club funds for providing non kosher catered food on campus.
3) All the food in the cafeteria is kosher (so no pork basically).
4) There are lots of free jewish dinners/religious services provided and typically some type of jewish ceremonial thing at each assembly we have.
5) I have asked a lot of people and no one has been able to give me a clear answer on if the Jewish name Touro is pronounced Tour-Ooh or Tuh-Row. (people use both, the former is probably safer at interviews).

We bought the historical buildings from the navy and as far as I understand there are various agreements on how much they can be renovated (historical character needs to be maintained), so the campus is not super pretty.

The school is less board focused than other schools, and emphasizes teaching you useful stuff besides busting you case every day non stop to study for tests (thus happier students). A lot of the random stuff we learn ends up being tested on Comlex so we score a bit above average on it, but if we grilled non stop for boards, given the average MCAT of our school (before they switched to new mcat, we were the only DO school to break a 30 average), we probably do a lot better. On the other hand, we aren’t prepared well for USLME (which matters less now due to merger) and we tend to do much better on Comlex 2. At the end of the day, we have a good match list since the non boards part of preclinical is great preparation for years 3 and 4, and thus there are much better letters evals and rotation interviews.

Politically the climate is fairly liberal (bay area medical school). I like it but I have heard conservative students complain.

School is more open than most schools to non traditional applicants.

The school is very open to changing and improving (both from the faculty/admin debating it and from students proposing ideas), so there are often new programs and curriculum changes introduced, and as far as I can tell, the school is a lot more awesome than it was 4 years ago when I initially decided I had to go here.

Students frequently complain about the school health insurance plan. If you are too lazy to find an alternative option you may have dissatisfaction here.

Parts of the osteopathic program (the advanced useful OMM) require you to either have some natural sensitivity or a willingness to practice and quiet your mind. That is a good life skill to have, but if you don’t have it and don’t want to learn it, some of the Osteopathic manipulation in 2nd year will not be your cup of tea, although you aren’t really penalized for lacking sensitivity it in the grades, it’s just more really frustrating to not be able to do what a lot of other people can.

I really like my 3rd year rotation schedule and think I have it much better than most people I know at other schools, but unlike most schools we do not have an affiliated teaching hospital (way too much competition for sites in the bay area), and as a result we have to split into a lot of different groups (which is super sad because we all got super close in the first 2 years). The rotation experience is slightly different, although still cool and you just need to make sure you get the site that fits for you. There is a lottery to select everything afterwards. I am not positive, but I believe almost all of the class got their first or second choices for rotation sites as only 10 people were asking to trade sites once it was worked out.

Parts of Vallejo have crime, but crime on Mare Island is almost non existent.

Objective Weaknesses of the school:


There is a degree of bureaucratic disorganization with the school, which I believe partly comes from the fact we are partially managed by Touro New York, and amongst other things, from my inquiries the time zone difference actually makes things very complicated. Every person I’ve spoken to has a tale or two of something frustrating happening (ie. if you don’t hear back in a few months, you should make sure your application is in the correct pile). I am yet to hear of any issues that were serious problems however.

The pathology program really needs to be supplemented with Pathoma, and I like many wish I had realized this early on (pathology is hard to teach, and pathoma just does it so perfectly…).

The mosquitos here kind of suck, leave actually irritating bites and can bite through clothing. There is due to a nasty asian species that can only live in this specific biome. The mosquitos aren’t unmanageable, and don't carry diseases, but for some reason this year there have not been very many of them, and they are honestly my least favorite thing about this school.

I will admit in writing this I am super biased towards this school. In the past the only reason I paid for college was because you had to to get the degree, but in Touro’s case, I actually feel like the education I am getting is basically worth what I am paying for the degree. I also probably forgot a few pro/cons but that was everything off the top of my head and a pretty good list."

I have bolded the things I think are major red flags. The bolded and underlined are even bigger flags and the one part with all three bolded, underline, and italics, is a huge red flag. Remember, this is all coming from a student who loves this school "11/10", the people who aren't so biased have even less nice things to say.

Thanks for sending me this! Do you happen to remember the username of the student?


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WesternU has much stronger clinical affiliations. That was the impression I got from a handful of TouroCA students I shared some rotation sites with.

With that said, this will come at a price. WesternU has a mandatory OMM rotation. If OMM is not your thing, then I'd make sure you understand what you getting yourself into. Another thing to consider is that at WesternU shelf exams are taken two at a time and sometimes 2 months removed from the corresponding rotation (third year is divided into 4 3-month blocks. you take the shelf exams at the end of the block AT SCHOOL!)

Thanks for your response! Would I be taking the OMM rotation my 3rd year or 4th year at western?


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This is easy. Napa wine vs, well, Paso Robles wine? Mexican food vs, um, Mexican food?

Hhhmm. This is harder than I thought.

Our own doctor is a Western grad. We love the guy.

Lol thanks Goro!!


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CA is an extremely difficult state to be an MD school candidate. UCLA alone churns out enough pre-meds to fill every medical school seat in CA.

It is a major exporter of med students. My school gets quite of few of them.


Thanks for your input! I'll definitely keep this in mind... Unfortunately, I didn't get a MD offer in California and I don't want to reapply which is why I'm going DO.


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WesternU has much stronger clinical affiliations. That was the impression I got from a handful of TouroCA students I shared some rotation sites with.

With that said, this will come at a price. WesternU has a mandatory OMM rotation. If OMM is not your thing, then I'd make sure you understand what you getting yourself into. Another thing to consider is that at WesternU shelf exams are taken two at a time and sometimes 2 months removed from the corresponding rotation (third year is divided into 4 3-month blocks. you take the shelf exams at the end of the block AT SCHOOL!)
In all fairness they are trying to change that for '19 and beyond.
 
CA is an extremely difficult state to be an MD school candidate. UCLA alone churns out enough pre-meds to fill every medical school seat in CA.

It is a major exporter of med students. My school gets quite of few of them.

Does this mean that the in state bias is less of a factor with DO schools? It's been difficult to get a preliminary out of state DO list together.
 
At least for western, I'd say no. About 90% of the class originates from California.

Things are changing fast... come next year I know NYIT, and I highly suspect WesternU, to be recruiting nationally. Although they do already, there has been a bias towards local area.

But post merger, these schools are scared as they know their students need to compete with nearby top MD programs for the same spots. Their primary goal now is just to get the best of the best students in those seats (which unfortunately means accepting the student with higher stats and little/no DO shadowing over a lower stat student with heavy DO experience and local). Because they want to make sure that their students can all get residencies post merger
 
Things are changing fast... come next year I know NYIT, and I highly suspect WesternU, to be recruiting nationally. Although they do already, there has been a bias towards local area.

But post merger, these schools are scared as they know their students need to compete with nearby top MD programs for the same spots. Their primary goal now is just to get the best of the best students in those seats (which unfortunately means accepting the student with higher stats and little/no DO shadowing over a lower stat student with heavy DO experience and local). Because they want to make sure that their students can all get residencies post merger
This is all speculation on your part, and one that I don't agree with. WesternU already has a very high scoring entering class and is considered one of the top 10 to receive the most applications nationally including any MD school.

https://www.usnews.com/education/be...6/10-medical-schools-with-the-most-applicants
 
This is all speculation on your part, and one that I don't agree with. WesternU already has a very high scoring entering class and is considered one of the top 10 to receive the most applications nationally including any MD school.

https://www.usnews.com/education/be...6/10-medical-schools-with-the-most-applicants

You know what's funny about that survey right? It counts both their Lebanon and pomona campuses. Try doing that for PCOM or many other schools that have 2 campuses and the figures aren't much different.

Same with WesternU's match... so when you see 3 gen surg or 9 ortho for this year, that's for 2 campuses combined. Misleading.

In terms of high scoring, yes they are one of the higher scoring ones already, but are in the same range as NYIT. I know for a fact NYIT is thinking about this issue, and I have observed this cycle many students who never shadowed a DO or DO letter of recc be accepted to WesternU this year in the first batch of the cycle. It's real.

EDIT: If you did that for PCOM specifically you'd actually see about 15k applicants in one pool. But Pomonas campus gets around 6.8 k applicants (5.8k this year when I attended their interview, they showed us)
 
You know what's funny about that survey right? It counts both their Lebanon and pomona campuses. Try doing that for PCOM or many other schools that have 2 campuses and the figures aren't much different.

Same with WesternU's match... so when you see 3 gen surg or 9 ortho for this year, that's for 2 campuses combined. Misleading.

In terms of high scoring, yes they are one of the higher scoring ones already, but are in the same range as NYIT. I know for a fact NYIT is thinking about this issue, and I have observed this cycle many students who never shadowed a DO or DO letter of recc be accepted to WesternU this year in the first batch of the cycle. It's real.

EDIT: If you did that for PCOM specifically you'd actually see about 15k applicants in one pool. But Pomonas campus gets around 6.8 k applicants (5.8k this year when I attended their interview, they showed us)
At best your argument is that individually the colleges wouldn't be in the top 10 of most applicants, but your point about the match is irrelevant. For example, you could give me a step 1 and 2 of 300 today and you'd never see me sending an application to gen surg, ortho or even derm. When you start attending medical school, you'll understand this a lot better. Osteopathic schools are very good at self-selecting people interested in primary care or influence students that way through mentorship.
 
At best your argument is that individually the colleges wouldn't be in the top 10 of most applicants, but your point about the match is irrelevant. For example, you could give me a step 1 and 2 of 300 today and you'd never see me sending an application to gen surg, ortho or even derm. When you start attending medical school, you'll understand this a lot better. Osteopathic schools are very good at self-selecting people interested in primary care or influence students that way through mentorship.

The first part I know I'm correct on.

Source: http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/AppEnrollGrad2012-2017.pdf?sfvrsn=24

And as for the second part, it may not be true about you, but I'm sure you will see students in your class who would love to do, say, Ortho Surg. or Derm who will not be able to due to their board scores not being competitive enough. But that's not the part they care about...

Almost, if not every, DO school has a percentage of students that scored very low on boards and/or failed one or more times. The AOA residencies served as a cushion to ensure that each of their students gets placement so schools can say they got a 100% match rate for their students. (which is excellent). Jump now to the post-merger world, and the cushion is now gone. Will former AOA programs still accept a student who has failed the boards one or more times or scored very low? Or would they rather rank applicants now from MD, IMG, or Non-IMG grads who have proven to be better applicants?

In the SOAP and post-SOAP scramble, you see a surplus of FM and IM AOA spots open. A majority of those spots will now be filled during the first match. How do schools want to prepare for this? Accept students with higher scores to minimize the number of students you have who will not perform well on boards, because no one knows what's going to happen. All they know now is that ALL of their students are going to be in the same playing field as MD's, IMG's, and NON-IMG's. It's real.

@AnatomyGrey12 @Goro
 
This is all speculation on your part, and one that I don't agree with. WesternU already has a very high scoring entering class and is considered one of the top 10 to receive the most applications nationally including any MD school.

https://www.usnews.com/education/be...6/10-medical-schools-with-the-most-applicants

BTW same is true for LECOM. First off, LECOM has 2 campuses: one in Erie, another in Greensburg. Those 2 campuses add up to just the LECOM Erie number of applicants. Second, the have another campus in Florida. This site summed the number of applicants for all 3 (which could also be overlapping) and trying to say it's all for 1 school, which is false.
 
The first part I know I'm correct on.

Source: http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/AppEnrollGrad2012-2017.pdf?sfvrsn=24

And as for the second part, it may not be true about you, but I'm sure you will see students in your class who would love to do, say, Ortho Surg. or Derm who will not be able to due to their board scores not being competitive enough. But that's not the part they care about...

Almost, if not every, DO school has a percentage of students that scored very low on boards and/or failed one or more times. The AOA residencies served as a cushion to ensure that each of their students gets placement so schools can say they got a 100% match rate for their students. (which is excellent). Jump now to the post-merger world, and the cushion is now gone. Will former AOA programs still accept a student who has failed the boards one or more times or scored very low? Or would they rather rank applicants now from MD, IMG, or Non-IMG grads who have proven to be better applicants?

In the SOAP and post-SOAP scramble, you see a surplus of FM and IM AOA spots open. A majority of those spots will now be filled during the first match. How do schools want to prepare for this? Accept students with higher scores to minimize the number of students you have who will not perform well on boards, because no one knows what's going to happen. All they know now is that ALL of their students are going to be in the same playing field as MD's, IMG's, and NON-IMG's. It's real.

@AnatomyGrey12 @Goro

This is all speculation. Western and NYIT will continue to draw mainly from their regions and there are a lot of people let into DO schools every year without a DO letter or DO shadowing. Albino is right that the mast majority of DO students have literally no interest in doing something competitive.

Every school whether DO or MD has a small population of students that have trouble with grades, fail boards, or have other red flags. A lot of those FM IM spots will still be an option for the weak students provided they make the merger. They are not about to take IMGs en masse. You forget there is already a 4000 surplus of residency spots. Things are getting tighter but the sky isn't falling yet.
 
The first part I know I'm correct on.

Source: http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/AppEnrollGrad2012-2017.pdf?sfvrsn=24

And as for the second part, it may not be true about you, but I'm sure you will see students in your class who would love to do, say, Ortho Surg. or Derm who will not be able to due to their board scores not being competitive enough. But that's not the part they care about...

Almost, if not every, DO school has a percentage of students that scored very low on boards and/or failed one or more times. The AOA residencies served as a cushion to ensure that each of their students gets placement so schools can say they got a 100% match rate for their students. (which is excellent). Jump now to the post-merger world, and the cushion is now gone. Will former AOA programs still accept a student who has failed the boards one or more times or scored very low? Or would they rather rank applicants now from MD, IMG, or Non-IMG grads who have proven to be better applicants?

In the SOAP and post-SOAP scramble, you see a surplus of FM and IM AOA spots open. A majority of those spots will now be filled during the first match. How do schools want to prepare for this? Accept students with higher scores to minimize the number of students you have who will not perform well on boards, because no one knows what's going to happen. All they know now is that ALL of their students are going to be in the same playing field as MD's, IMG's, and NON-IMG's. It's real.

@AnatomyGrey12 @Goro
@AnatomyGrey12 made a great response to this.

I'm not saying you're wrong about applications. In fact, I'll say you're right that they are counting both programs, but again, at best this means that WesternU is not "truly" in the top 10 of applicants. The school is simply not struggling to find students with good scores within their regions. The NW campus has an obvious NW bias and their numbers are roughly similar to ours.

The amount of students that struggle or fail boards is small. I don't predict a magical influx of IMG/FMG coming to displace US MDs or DO.
 
I've scribed with a lot of Western graduates (5+) at a couple of EDs in Southern California, they have all been excellent.
 
@AnatomyGrey12 made a great response to this.

I'm not saying you're wrong about applications. In fact, I'll say you're right that they are counting both programs, but again, at best this means that WesternU is not "truly" in the top 10 of applicants. The school is simply not struggling to find students with good scores within their regions. The NW campus has an obvious NW bias and their numbers are roughly similar to ours.

The amount of students that struggle or fail boards is small. I don't predict a magical influx of IMG/FMG coming to displace US MDs or DO.

I just realized we completely hijacked this thread....OP, WesternU over Touro-CA. loll
 
Sorry, SDN banter gets the best of me sometimes. But congrats! I'm sure you're going to make the right choice and you will end up loving whichever school you do choose. 🙂
The right choice here is western, and this is coming from someone with a lot of reservations of Western.
 
The right choice here is western, and this is coming from someone with a lot of reservations of Western.
That's putting it lightly. I'll never forget the "camp" image you used to describe WesternU back in the day. I think things have changed a decent amount since you were a OMS1&2 there, because although I can somewhat relate to you, it never seems as bad as you make it out to be.

OP, I'd go with WesternU. I too have not heard (anecdotally) great things about TouroCA.
 
The right choice here is western, and this is coming from someone with a lot of reservations of Western.

What are some of your reservations? (I am applying next cycle, I live about ~10 minutes away from the campus and I know a lot of graduates in the area.. so I'm definitely going to apply). They have a lot of premed events there but I haven't had the time to visit yet.
 
That's putting it lightly. I'll never forget the "camp" image you used to describe WesternU back in the day. I think things have changed a decent amount since you were a OMS1&2 there, because although I can somewhat relate to you, it never seems as bad as you make it out to be.

OP, I'd go with WesternU. I too have not heard (anecdotally) great things about TouroCA.
I'm Glad things are not as bad. My advisor told me that before the entire thing was small group and large group and nothing else before I got there. I would have have put a gun to my head if I had to deal with that.

From second year I've heard cardio is a lot better and ECM isn't as bad. Also not as many quacks went to teach cranial week. Let me know when you do second year of its better because I'd like to not **** on the school if they made real improvements. Are you in neuro? I heard its the last year for the neuro anatomy guy. He was my favorite but also the toughest professor of all time.
 
What are some of your reservations? (I am applying next cycle, I live about ~10 minutes away from the campus and I know a lot of graduates in the area.. so I'm definitely going to apply). They have a lot of premed events there but I haven't had the time to visit yet.
Honestly, talk to the newer students. I hear things are improving. My complaints were the lack of board relevant material or glossing over important stuff. On top of that dealing with terrible busy work from smaller classes.
 
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The notion of all the clinical Deans I talk to about those weakest of the weak is that they can make it into lesser Primary Care programs. Note: it will take a while for IMGs to get squeezed out, especially since the Carib diploma mills bribe, er, pay for residencies in particular sites. These sites do tend to be in awful areas, and are crummy programs as well.

Also keep in mind that the merger will be a diffusional process. A DO PD friend told me that her site will accept MD, but it's not going to be in a flood.

Overall, in trying to predict what's going to happen after 2020, it will be easier to pick who's going to win the next Presidential election.

One more thing...if schools have students who fail Boards and as a result fail to match, at some point, that will get on COCA's radar fast, and not in a good way. One outcome from this is that said schools will have their classes trimmed, and the worst case for them is that they could be hit with a loss of accreditation until they get their act together...meaning, don't admit so many marginal students, or rapidly jettison the weakest.

Another wild card in all this? How many residency slots will there be?????? If there are more slots than bodies to fill them, then people will find a job.


Almost, if not every, DO school has a percentage of students that scored very low on boards and/or failed one or more times. The AOA residencies served as a cushion to ensure that each of their students gets placement so schools can say they got a 100% match rate for their students. (which is excellent). Jump now to the post-merger world, and the cushion is now gone. Will former AOA programs still accept a student who has failed the boards one or more times or scored very low? Or would they rather rank applicants now from MD, IMG, or Non-IMG grads who have proven to be better applicants?

In the SOAP and post-SOAP scramble, you see a surplus of FM and IM AOA spots open. A majority of those spots will now be filled during the first match. How do schools want to prepare for this? Accept students with higher scores to minimize the number of students you have who will not perform well on boards, because no one knows what's going to happen. All they know now is that ALL of their students are going to be in the same playing field as MD's, IMG's, and NON-IMG's. It's real.

@AnatomyGrey12 @Goro
 
I'm Glad things are not as bad. My advisor told me that before the entire thing was small group and large group and nothing else before I got there. I would have have put a gun to my head if I had to deal with that.

From second year I've heard cardio is a lot better and ECM isn't as bad. Also not as many quacks went to teach cranial week. Let me know when you do second year of its better because I'd like to not **** on the school if they made real improvements. Are you in neuro? I heard its the last year for the neuro anatomy guy. He was my favorite but also the toughest professor of all time.
Which professor? And, yeah, Neuro so far seems a LOT harder than anything we've done.
 
Which professor? And, yeah, Neuro so far seems a LOT harder than anything we've done.
The guy that looks like he kidnaps children using an ice-cream truck and probably has a few bodies in a freezer.

I thought neuroscience was easier than IDIT. I think OB/Gyn is the hardest of all classes. Cardio used to be hard, but I heard it's chill now.
 
The guy that looks like he kidnaps children using an ice-cream truck and probably has a few bodies in a freezer.

IMG_1504.JPG
 
Some of the Touro students have had some nice rotations at UCSF, Stanford, CPMC, UDC etc so if u go to Touro take advantage of these opportunities.

Hello,

Let me preface by saying I know there are many threads out there comparing the two but those are awfully negative in comparison to what I saw when I went to my interview.

It seemed like Touro-CA got their rotation sites under control. So that's not really a concern for me anymore.

Location isn't really a factor to me. My family's literally half way between both schools lol...

I do want to specialize, so to me, it's basically coming down to which would be the best curriculum and resources for boards, particularly USMLE. And which ones have the best connections to university residency programs, not private hospitals/community hospital. Unless there's something else I'm missing?

Anyway, if there's anyone who's a current student and can provide better insight, I'd greatly appreciate it!

Thanks!!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
Some of the Touro students have had some nice rotations at UCSF, Stanford, CPMC, UDC etc so if u go to Touro take advantage of these opportunities.

Yeah no. As 4th years on away/audition rotations or electives sure but no 3rd year TUCOM student is rotating at UCSF or Stanford.
 
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