Training women doctors = waste of money?

[mshheaddoc]

To address another point in this thread, I believe someone mentioned that young people don't always know what they want to do. Well, my very easy solution to that which I've previously stated on SDN is to ONLY admit people after they: 1) Reach a certain age and 2) Have had a "real" job with benefits, and 3) Can prove that they can survive without Mommy's and Daddy's "payroll". 4) Have served the disadvantaged in some capacity. Perhaps if people were admitted when they were say 28+ (perhaos an exception for future surgeons), there wouldn't be as many women dropping out of medicine.

I don't really agree with these as well as can you show me the stats for #4 (in the US). I'm not seeing those numbers at all, if anything I'm just seeing women working less, going into women friendly fields or not overall dissatisfied with job advancement, all due to the fact that women still are stereotyped in many fields and due to the responsibility still falling on women to raise their families if their spouse is not a "stay at home" dad. Hence why all those articles I quoted state surgery is seeing a DECREASE in women in the workplace for various reasons. An argument which you have previously made was women need to stay out of surgery to have kids, apparently they are listening!

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[mshheaddoc]

1: J Womens Health (Larchmt). 2005 Mar;14(2):146-53.Click here to read Links
Career satisfaction and retention of a sample of women physicians who work reduced hours.
Barnett RC, Gareis KC, Carr PL.

Women's Studies Research Center, Brandeis University, Waltham, Massachusetts, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To better understand the career satisfaction and factors related to retention of women physicians who work reduced hours and are in dual-earner couples in comparison to their full-time counterparts. METHODS: Survey of a random sample of female physicians between 25 and 50 years of age working within 25 miles of Boston, whose names were obtained from the Board of Registration in Medicine in Massachusetts. Interviewers conducted a 60-minute face-to-face closed-ended interview after interviewees completed a 20-minute mailed questionnaire. RESULTS: Fifty-one full-time physicians and 47 reduced hours physicians completed the study; the completion rate was 49.5%. The two groups were similar in age, years as a physician, mean household income, number of children, and presence of an infant in the home. Reduced hours physicians in this sample had a different relationship to experiences in the family than full-time physicians. (1) When reduced hours physicians had low marital role quality, there was an associated lower career satisfaction; full-time physicians report high career satisfaction regardless of their marital role quality. (2) When reduced hours physicians had low marital role or parental role quality, there was an associated higher intention to leave their jobs than for full-time physicians; when marital role or parental role quality was high, there was an associated lower intention to leave their jobs than for full-time physicians. (3) When reduced hours physicians perceived that work interfering with family was high, there was an associated greater intention to leave their jobs that was not apparent for full-time physicians. CONCLUSIONS: Women physicians in this sample who worked reduced hours had stronger relationships between family experiences (marital and parental role quality and work interference with family) and professional outcomes than had their full-time counterparts. Both career satisfaction and intention to leave their employment are correlated with the quality of home life for reduced hours physicians.

PMID: 15775732 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


1: Arch Intern Med. 1999 Jul 12;159(13):1417-26.Click here to read Links
Career satisfaction of US women physicians: results from the Women Physicians' Health Study. Society of General Internal Medicine Career Satisfaction Study Group.
Frank E, McMurray JE, Linzer M, Elon L.

Department of Family and Preventive Medicine, Rollins School of Public Health, Emory University School of Medicine, Atlanta, GA 30303-3219, USA.

BACKGROUND: Despite major changes in health care, the prevalence and predictors of career satisfaction have not recently been comprehensively studied in either women or men physicians. METHODS: The Women Physicians' Health Study surveyed a nationally representative random sample (n = 4501 respondents; response rate, 59%) of US women physicians. Using univariate and logistic regression analyses, we examined personal and professional characteristics that were correlated with 3 major outcomes: career satisfaction, desire to become a physician again, and desire to change one's specialty. RESULTS: Women physicians were generally satisfied with their careers (84% usually, almost always, or always satisfied). However, 31% would maybe, probably, or definitely not choose to be a physician again, and 38% would maybe, probably, or definitely prefer to change their specialty. Physician's age, control of the work environment, work stress, and a history of harassment were independent predictors of all 3 outcomes, with younger physicians and those having least work control, most work stress, or having experienced severe harassment reporting the most dissatisfaction. The strongest association (odds ratio, 11.3; 95% confidence interval, 7.3-17.5; P<.001) was between work control and career satisfaction. Other significant predictors (P<.01) of outcomes included birthplace, ethnicity, sexual orientation, having children, stress at home, religious fervor, mental health, specialty, practice type, and workload. CONCLUSIONS: Women physicians generally report career satisfaction, but many, if given the choice, would not become a physician again or would choose a different specialty. Correctable factors such as work stress, harassment, and poor control over work environment should be addressed to improve the recruitment and retention of women physicians.

 

[1Path]

Baby Boomers generally view Gen Xer physicians as less committed to their medical careers. In my personal/professional life, I definitely find this statement to be true. And even though I'm technically a Gen X by about 2 years, I identify more with Baby Boomers.

As a former epidemiologist, I find ANY study including the one I quoted that relies on a significant statistical data, suspect. It's too easy too make numbers support your position. I posted that article in the original post because it jives very well with what I've seen and heard in medicine. Still I say if URM's voiced their "concerns" about medical/academic careers as much as women do in professional settings, all hell would break loose.

 

[1Path]

"Employee's" age, control of the work environment, work stress, and a history of harassment were independent predictors of all 3 outcomes.........

An extremely important point that gets missed all the time in studies of working women are questions related to whether or not the physicians' MOTHER worked. And I'd also like to see more significant data on the RACE of the respondents (ethnicity isn't always as straight forward). The above quoted statement was almost certainly how my Grandmother must have felt being a Maid for white families in 1920's southern USA and my mother who did the same to put herself through nursing school in 1960's southern USA.

Another point is that since the majority of folks accepted to med school have parents in the highest SES bracket in the US, I'd imagine that a LOT of women don't have one of the most important role models of all for women, Mom, to show them HOW to balance work and career. I'd also like so info on the numbers of children the unsatisfied women have.

 

[1Path]

An argument which you have previously made was women need to stay out of surgery to have kids, apparently they are listening!

Here we go again. I didn't state that women need to stay out of surgery to have kids.

To be clear, women who expect special treatmemt for their choices need to stay out of medicine period and not just medicine but ANY career that is demanding. The example I posted previously is that a woman who CHOSES to have 2 young kids in the middle of her surgical residenty should NOT expect special treatment. If she had been admitted to med school at 28 it's likely that 1) She would have already had those 2 kids and so would have a MUCH easier time with two kids 10 and 8 in a surgical residency rather than age 2 and 4. 2) Maybe she wouldn't have married another doctor (which obviously makes it easier to quit medicine herself) and instead would have married a Teacher or Engineer. 3) Perhaps she would have decided to have those 2 kids in med school, where the impact on her and her classmates would be greatly decreased versus having them in residency against the backdrop of a ticking clock.

In other words, admitting older people I strongly believes forces people into making better life decisions. If you don't believe me, go check the "unsatisfaction" meter on Oldpremeds. In 5 years of membership, I've NEVER heard ANYONE there complain.

 

[dpmd]

I doubt many women expect special treatment. Perhaps you consider the time taken off near the birth of the child (before or after) special treatment, but in reality this is something that is done by women in all kinds of jobs (now if they got paid for that time off that would be a different story). An example of other people having to pay for your choices I would give is that of a senior ortho resident who chose to participate in a risky activity and ended up breaking his wrist. The program ended up having to alter the schedule since he was unable to scrub for surgeries for an extended period of time. By your logic, those people that participate in certain risky hobbies should likewise be excluded from admission.

I appreciate that you want people to take responsibility for their choices, and not expect others to make sacrifices in order to meet their own needs. I just think that your proposed solution would bar a number of potential physicians without guaranteeing any change in what you perceive as a problem. Also, your proposed contract wouldn't really make sense without a major restructuring of medical education, as well as a major change in public opinion.

 

[1Path]

I doubt many women expect special treatment. Perhaps you consider the time taken off near the birth of the child (before or after) special treatment, but in reality this is something that is done by women in all kinds of jobs (now if they got paid for that time off that would be a different story). An example of other people having to pay for your choices I would give is that of a senior ortho resident who chose to participate in a risky activity and ended up breaking his wrist. The program ended up having to alter the schedule since he was unable to scrub for surgeries for an extended period of time. By your logic, those people that participate in certain risky hobbies should likewise be excluded from admission..

This entire post is probably the most asinine comment made in this thread. So with that, I'm going to make this my last repsonse to your posts in this thread.

 

[Instatewaiter]

I doubt many women expect special treatment. Perhaps you consider the time taken off near the birth of the child (before or after) special treatment, but in reality this is something that is done by women in all kinds of jobs.

Oh it is most definitely special treatment. I am not saying it is unfair or unwarranted but it is special treatment. The fact that every other job also does it is irrelevant.

I tried to find some hard data for the US but came up empty handed. I do know from my family that they have noticed very similar things as the initial article, perhaps not in the same proportion but they have noticed that women tend to leave the profession much earlier than men.

I think that it comes down to a conundrum of pragmatism vs personal rights. If we have a major doctor shortage and women tend to leave the profession early it seems logical to have less women in medical school but how is it fair or legal since not every woman will choose to leave.

Thus far it doesn't seem to be an issue in this country but when/if it does, I really have no idea how they will deal with it.

 

[dpmd]

I don't consider the six weeks off as special treatment because of a couple of things:

Both men and women are authorized this time off in this and other situations (whether to have a child, which is a choice or to care for a sick loved one, which is also a choice)

The time off is unpaid.


Look, if one of the other interns in my program (there are three of us out of four) decided tomorrow that she wanted to get pregnant, and that meant later I would have to take extra call (assuming she didn't do what some other people have done-work until her water breaks, answer floor pages from her hospital room, then return to work shortly after getting out of the hospital), I would be pissed. However, I wouldn't decide that all fertile women are threats to the future of medicine and make efforts to keep them out of school. I would understand that one person may decide to get pregnant, another may decide to care for their dying mother, and another may decide they chose the wrong specialty. All of these would affect my schedule, but I wouldn't expect any of these people to consult me for my approval. I would be pissed because of the extra work, but I wouldn't sit around and whine about the special treatment the government allows in the first two cases, or the weakness of the contract allows in the last.

Now if someone has a crapload of babies and takes a bunch of time off then expects to get promotions and more money as if they had been working the whole time, I would call that special treatment (but I don't think that is happening). If someone leaves the field (permanently or just for a time) I expect they will take a hit in prestige and in finances (at least those I know who did it when called up in the first gulf war experienced this, male and female).

The doctor shortage has more to do with location and specialty of existing physicians, than with actual numbers. The way to fix this is with incentive programs (or by forcing people to work in certain specialties and locations). Merely trying to increase overall number of physicians isn't really going to do anything except bring down the price of cosmetic surgery in LA and other places where there is a doc on every corner, as long as you have the cash.

 

[LADoc00]

Interesting topic. When you think about women throughout human history, it has only been 50 or so years out of a record of thousands of years that they have even had much of choice in anything. Less than a fraction of a single percent of the total record.

We went from women never really working to 50% of med school classes being female in literally a blink of an eye. A total reordering of human society in what could be considered milliseconds in relation to the timescale of Western Civ.

Of course there are going to be issues surrounding this like child rearing/birth etc. Somebody has to do it. I wonder if "modern society" is merely a passing phase and one day we will wake up in a government more resembling 1958 America or if the Pandora's box has been opened and we wont ever go back.

Everything is so fragile it seems. Do women ever step back and just say "Wow, wow Im so lucky to be in America in 2007" or has it all become some huge sense of entitlement where they just want it all, and pronto.

 

[lilnoelle]

Even if this is true, medicine has changed even more in the last 50 years... technology as well. Everything has changed.

I'm not a historian, but I think your wrong. Women played a larger role in MANY societies than they did in 1800-1930's in the United States. Not all societies have been run by men.

Also, I'm pretty sure that women played a larger role in paternally run societies than we give them credit for.

Interesting topic. When you think about women throughout human history, it has only been 50 or so years out of a record of thousands of years that they have even had much of choice in anything. Less than a fraction of a single percent of the total record.

We went from women never really working to 50% of med school classes being female in literally a blink of an eye. A total reordering of human society in what could be considered milliseconds in relation to the timescale of Western Civ.

Of course there are going to be issues surrounding this like child rearing/birth etc. Somebody has to do it. I wonder if "modern society" is merely a passing phase and one day we will wake up in a government more resembling 1958 America or if the Pandora's box has been opened and we wont ever go back.

Everything is so fragile it seems. Do women ever step back and just say "Wow, wow Im so lucky to be in America in 2007" or has it all become some huge sense of entitlement where they just want it all, and pronto.

 

[LADoc00]

Even if this is true, medicine has changed even more in the last 50 years... technology as well. Everything has changed.

I'm not a historian, but I think your wrong. Women played a larger role in MANY societies than they did in 1800-1930's in the United States. Not all societies have been run by men.

Also, I'm pretty sure that women played a larger role in paternally run societies than we give them credit for.

Im speaking of generalities. yes there has been scattered exceptions, yes there have been extraordinary women in human history but overall it has been one of extreme servitude, second class status and warlord-like domination by men. Just recently I read something about women being traded for bad debt in the present day Middle East.

I have this feeling that no one appreciates how utterly delicate the balance of society really is. Today we have universal sufferage but tommorrow we could have a military junta and total reordering of society.

the only power we really have is the power some stronger, tougher, rougher guy with a gun is willing to give us. What power is that?

Yes today women are in medicine, tommorrow? I have no clue.

 

[1Path]

Interesting topic. When you think about women throughout human history, it has only been 50 or so years out of a record of thousands of years that they have even had much of choice in anything. Less than a fraction of a single percent of the total record...................Everything is so fragile it seems. Do women ever step back and just say "Wow, wow Im so lucky to be in America in 2007" or has it all become some huge sense of entitlement where they just want it all, and pronto.

LaDocc brings up some very valid points. However, an important distinction needs to be made about women in America. White women in America have only recently worked outside the home, but this is far from the case for women of other races ie Native American and Black, for example. The overwhelming majority of URM women have ALWAYS had to balance duties outside the home (which seems like an odd way to characterize being a slave) with family duties.

So do I think I'm lucky to be in America in 2007? Hell yeah , versus being here 1807 where my live would be VERY different than it is now. Hell, even being here in 1907, the year my grandmother was born, would have been no walk in the park for a black woman who dared to aspire to become a physician.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Wow, 1path, did you really need to play the race card?

DPMD, you really think that if my SO was to have a baby and I (male) took 6-8 weeks off people would not be up in arms 'cause I was taking so much time off? Again I am not saying it is unwarranted for a woman to take that time off, but if women can take the time and it is look down upon for men to do the same, then that is special treatment. Also, an unpregnant woman couldn't just say, "hey I think i will take 6-8 weeks off."

 

[1Path]

Wow, 1path, did you really need to play the race card? ."

Since it relates to the topic, working women, yes and I think it's a valid consideration and point. Besides, it's true.

Also, an unpregnant woman couldn't just say, "hey I think i will take 6-8 weeks off."

Lemme get this straight. You're a medical student and you don't know that taking 6-8 weeks off after the birth of a child (espeically for a C-section) is for MEDICAL not personal recovery? People take 6-8 weeks off for recovery from other medical issues, why should pregnancy especially for a C-Section, be any different?

As for the fact that it's looked down upon for men to do the same, a real man wouldn't care what people thought.

 

[LADoc00]

For a different topic: Is it inappropriate IF a member of your resident team becomes preggers and get a massive belly, that other residents can rub it for luck?

 

[Instatewaiter]

Wow, 1path, did you really need to play the race card?

Since it relates to the topic, working women, yes and I think it's a valid consideration and point. Besides, it's true.

Ummm... it was totally off topic. Somehow, whenever you end up on a thread you always turn it to race. We could be talking about how some jackass at a supermarket cut in line and you would chime back w/ "well let me tell you what black women have to go through at the supermarket"

I could tell you about the monstrosities my family (and ethnicity) has had to go through that are much, much worse than anything you could ever come up with but I dont b/c using those struggles as some sort of sales pitch in an online forum cheapens that ordeal.

As for the fact that it's looked down upon for men to do the same, a real man wouldn't care what people thought.

Sure but when you start getting **** on by your attending or resident b/c you took the times off it goes from caring about what they think to caring about the hell that they put you through.

For a different topic: Is it inappropriate IF a member of your resident team becomes preggers and get a massive belly, that other residents can rub it for luck?

Of course not. It's even better if they intentionally get preggers just so that they can add luck to the residents team. Talk about a team player.

 

[1Path]

I could tell you about the monstrosities my family (and ethnicity) has had to go through that are much, much worse than anything you could ever come up with but I dont b/c using those struggles as some sort of sales pitch in an online forum cheapens that ordeal. .

Sure but when you start getting **** on by your attending or resident b/c you took the times off it goes from caring about what they think to caring about the hell that they put you through..

I serioyusly doubt it. I'm going into Pathology NOT surgery.Besides, as a BLACK WOMAN, I've learned the art of ONLY drawing positive attention to myself!!!!

Now have you talked to anyone about the recup time necessary after a C-section yet?

 

[LADoc00]

I serioyusly doubt it. I'm going into Pathology NOT surgery.Besides, as a BLACK WOMAN, I've learned the art of ONLY drawing positive attention to myself!!!!

Now have you talked to anyone about the recup time necessary after a C-section yet?

1Path....is that YOU:

which button do I push:

 

[1Path]

1Path....is that YOU.....which button do I push

LaDoc, I may have my black expoltation films mixed up, but haven't you confused Cleopatra Jones with Foxy Brown?

 

[dpmd]

DPMD, you really think that if my SO was to have a baby and I (male) took 6-8 weeks off people would not be up in arms 'cause I was taking so much time off?

According to law, they would have to let you do it. They do not have to like it though. I kinda get the feeling that there are places that would be up in arms regardless of whether it was the man or the woman taking the time off (like at the place where the person I described earlier who took floor calls from her L+D room was at). There are also places where you could take the time off and the pwers that be wouldn't bat an eye (firsthand account from a guy who did it in a surgical residency, though the pregnancy was complicated so maybe that made it more acceptable). I am not sure, but I think the family medical leave act forbids retaliation for taking the time off, but I am not naive enough to believe that there aren't ways around that.

 

[Instatewaiter]

which button do I push:

Is there an off button?

 

[1Path]

Is there an off button?

Obviously, the off button only applies to Ob/Gyn lectures/rotations.

 

[Coastie]

I think it's great that we live in America where people (male and female) can choose, or not choose, to go to medical school, without the "central government command" dictating where, what, when, and how we choose for our careers.

If we go socialized? Remember HillaryCare? Yes, you'll be a nice round peg in the machinery dictated by the sovereign socialists who govern from on high...

 

[ForbiddenComma]

I have nothing but an anecdote to add to this.

I have a classmate at my med school who has already said that she is going to quit medicine -- forever -- once she starts having kids.

As in, for good.

Which begs the question, why did she decide to waste a precious med school slot? Why does she choose to take her medical training, wrap it up in a nice little bundle, and flush it down the toilet?

Does her decision make things better, or worse for the state of health care in this country?

What if she had said this in her med school interview? Does anyone think she would have gotten in if she had been honest? No, of course not. Her spot would have gone to someone who might actually stay in medicine.

The saddest part is that her husband makes at MOST a *third* of her potential earning power as a physician.

She should not have been admitted to med school. She should not have even applied.

She reinforces every negative stereotype about working women, and provides fuel for people like the one linked to by the OP.

Granted, I live in the backwards Midwest where submitting to your husband is the expectation of every woman but still... damn. I was frankly appalled when I heard about her "plans."

 

[Empi]

I believe this is more a situation of medicine and academia assuming a male model.

Just because women don't always manage to function like penis-less males does not mean that educating them to become physicians is a, "waste of money."

Much of the success of traditional males lies in the willingness of their wives to devote their lives to that of supporting their doctor-husband. The little woman stayed home and reared his brood, *she* was there holding down the fort while he put in his endless hours of residency or practice. Heck, it was likely even she that slaved at some pink collar job to put his ass through medical school.

Women, in general, don't have that well of unpaid help from which to draw, why should women be maligned because we can't always manage to be dickless men?

 

[snoopy brown]

The only this thread has demonstrated is that most people when they argue about a sex- or race-related issue are arguing about something else. When women hear the question "is training women doctors a waste of money" they're not really answering the question. Instead most of them are acting like people are asking if women should be allowed to train. Then they react histrionically. I mean, this whole bit by Empi is the woman's response to everything. "Not only do we do what men do, but at the same time we're raising your children, shopping for your groceries, cooking your meals, cleaning your toilets, etc etc." Wow, not only are women not underqualified, they're overqualified. And not just for medicine, but every job ever! And if that doesn't work, they'll talk about how tough pregnancy or periods are.

 

[Empi]

The fact remains that if men take 50% of the household and childcare duties, they're lauded as great guys but women are (in our culture,) *expected* to sholder more than 50% of these duties.

If women weren't historically burdened with unpaid and unrecognized work, the playing field would already be level and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[1Path]

Comma and Snoopy, I read your posts then wondered if I needed a chromosome check. I think what you said is 1000% true.

If women weren't historically burdened with unpaid and unrecognized work, the playing field would already be level and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

This excuse worked well hundred years ago but this is 2007. If a woman makes a poor family choice, like having too many kids in a short period of time for example, then it's HER problem if she then becomes burdened with "unpaid and unrecognized" work for an extended period of time. She should have either married a man that could afford to pay a Nanny/housekeeper/cook, poped a pill, or made him pay her a salary. I did the later and it worked wonders during my short lived time as a SAHM.

ALL women should know that 99.9999999999999999% of men haven't changed since first put on ths planet. You can either bitch and complain about it, or you can work with what you got. Trying to change men from hunter/gatherers into housekeepers/childcare providers is IMHO a terrible idea.

 

[1Path]

............. don't have that well of unpaid help from which to draw, why should women be maligned because we can't always manage to be dickless men?

Why? Because there's a LOT of women making some dumb a$$ choices.

The woman that goes to med school then quits after she starts having kids (assuming all are healthy and don't have special needs) is IMHO only a notch above a prostitute at worst, and an educated gold digger at best. Why? Because she obviously only went to med school in the first place to improve her "stock", which in turn makes her more appealing to her fellow male medical school classmates and other "high earning" men.

Now as cold blooded as that sounds, I KNOW some you know EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

 

[Empi]

.

ALL women should know that 99.9999999999999999% of men haven't changed since first put on ths planet. You can either bitch and complain about it, or you can work with what you got. Trying to change men from hunter/gatherers into housekeepers/childcare providers is IMHO a terrible idea.

Until this attitude changes, women will have an unequal burden and will continue to be blamed for something that is a general societal problem.

 

[Empi]

Why? Because there's a LOT of women making some dumb a$$ choices.

The woman that goes to med school then quits after she starts having kids (assuming all are healthy and don't have special needs) is IMHO only a notch above a prostitute at worst, and an educated gold digger at best. Why? Because she obviously only went to med school in the first place to improve her "stock", which in turn makes her more appealing to her fellow male medical school classmates and other "high earning" men.

Now as cold blooded as that sounds, I KNOW some you know EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

That's pretty harsh. I am not particularly pleased with droves of women quitting practice to stay home full time, but what about the men? *They're* able to continue with thir careers most often *because* they have the little woman quietly supporting him. Without her, *he'd* be just as vulnerable. How many men would be able to manage a career in medicine and take care of a household and a couple of kids? It's time to recognize the societal inequity and do something to change it.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Obviously, the off button only applies to Ob/Gyn lectures/rotations.

I still haven't figured out how you 'got into" an MD/PhD program and are not actually working on your MD or PhD but rather at the NIH...? Perhaps you shouldn't be the one making academic quips. I'll prempt your response: It's not 'cause you're a black female and has nothing to do with history.

If women weren't historically burdened with unpaid and unrecognized work, the playing field would already be level and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The issue is not that women historically were homemakers; the issue is that many women doctors NOW choose to leave the field very early thereby decreasing supply. And, while it is their right to do so, if we were ever faced with a major Dr shortage, pragmatically it probably would become an issue.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

That's pretty harsh. I am not particularly pleased with droves of women quitting practice to stay home full time, but what about the men? *They're* able to continue with thir careers most often *because* they have the little woman quietly supporting him. Without her, *he'd* be just as vulnerable. How many men would be able to manage a career in medicine and take care of a household and a couple of kids? It's time to recognize the societal inequity and do something to change it.

Well, the solution is pretty obvious, isn't it?

Women physicians should not be afraid to step up and start asking that their husbands be the ones to sacrifice their careers by working part-time to take care of the kids, especially if they are in easier or lower-paying fields.

If he's a high school teacher and she's a cardiologist, it's clear to me that the family and the kids would be better served by dad working part-time. Yes, even though he is the one with the penis. A cardiologist's salary would provide for the family a little bit better, even if the cardiologist owns two ovaries, no?

Of course, women like my classmate mentioned above and their husbands are so hung up on traditional gender roles that they make choices ultimately detrimental to themselves and their children, just so the man can "feel like a man" by being the "breadwinner."

You can't put this all on the patriarchy. Yes, women are conditioned to be submissive housewives especially here in the Midwest, but it's ultimately going to have to be women who break the cycle and demand more.

 

[TopDocChick]

Oh man! Wow. I think women can be so dumb. Why do you do it? Why do you fight about this? If you want to be a doctor, be a doctor. IF you want your husband to do more housework, then do less. Eventually they will get sick of living in a pigsty and they will do it. Why would you go to med school and then drop out? That seems so dumb. Iam happy that i have my kids already, my husband is already used to taking care of them 99% of the time, and Iwill be 29 when i enter med school. There are no what ifs. I know what I want to do, my husband knows what I want to do, my kids know what I want to do - there is no mystery if i will drop my career one day.

Women who enter the field and drop it frustrate me so much. Why did you bother? Why do you ruin the name of female doctors? And why do you give into society's rules of the male and female roles. Think outside the box.

 

[snoopy brown]

There's still a big disconnect here. Because the women who feel like Empi do view things as "unfair because I have to take care of the kids and practice medicine or sacrifice one or the other because I'm a woman." Which is exactly what a man does with one big difference. You're right that women are often more willing to stay at home or sacrifice their career. But that's not because a man made them do it. I always say, hey, if a woman who is successful and high-earning wants to support me or another man while we stay at home and raise the kids, fine. But let's be honest, most women don't want that man. But they all say they'd be open to being with that guy, they just never actually follow through. In the same way, if a man is with a woman who refuses to give up her work, what do you think he's going to do, beat her until she agrees? No, he just says "OK" and deals with the situation, either not having kids or hiring help. PERIOD.

So unless you are willing to go out with the guy who stays at home then you need to pick one or the other. That's the same as a guy who can't find work in his area and has to move. He can stay there and be unemployed and stubborn or he can move and find work. Likewise, women can sit around complaining about disparate income or they can act like men (in the sense that they don't get pregnant, don't take maternity leave, don't leave the workforce for eighteen years, demanding jobs pay for daycare, etc) and make up the ground. But I'll tell you what won't work: trying to act differently and get paid the same.

Re: this particular issue, if a woman wants to get a medical degree and not use it, she has a perfect right to do that. But that doesn't change the fact that it's a waste of money, which is the actual question being asked. The thread should have ended in one post, were it not for the fact that people are so emotional and crazed about these gender- and race-related questions.

 

[Noeljan]

If you want to be a doctor, be a doctor. IF you want your husband to do more housework, then do less. Eventually they will get sick of living in a pigsty and they will do it. .

haha this really works. I do it on my boyfriend now (and we don't even live together). He always starts to clean and do the dishes because I just leave them when I have to much going on. Haha it totally works

 

[1Path]

.....but what about the men? *They're* able to continue with thir careers most often *because* they have the little woman quietly supporting him.

What about the men? Some may have a "little woman" at home, but keep in mind that she essentially lives off HIS salary. If she wants to feel equitable, then she needs to do what I did and REQUIRE a salary.

Instate, do a search if you want to know what the deal is. I haven't kept it a secret around here so with a little research you should be able to put it all together although I don't understand why you give a dam. As for academic quips, when I comment on something medical or scientific around here, you can better believe that 99% of the time, I know what the hell I'm talking about. And for the times when I don't, unlike YOU being clueless about the recop necessary after child birth, I'm not afraid to admit it.

 

[1Path]

.....but what about the men? *They're* able to continue with thir careers most often *because* they have the little woman quietly supporting him.

What about the men? Some may have a "little woman" at home, but keep in mind that she essentially lives off HIS salary. If she wants to feel equitable, then she needs to do what I did and REQUIRE a salary.

Instate, do you mind staying on the topic at hand? My CV has nothing directly to do with this discussion. As for academic quips, when I comment on something medical or scientific around here, you can better believe that 99% of the time, I know what the hell I'm talking about. And for the times when I don't, unlike YOU being clueless about the recop necessary after child birth, I'm not afraid to admit it.

Overall, I think this turned out to be a pretty good discussion and I'm happy to see people not giving political correct "happy, happy, joy, joy" responses.

 

[snoopy brown]

haha this really works. I do it on my boyfriend now (and we don't even live together). He always starts to clean and do the dishes because I just leave them when I have to much going on. Haha it totally works

I have news for you. You're being a jerk. The only reason what you do works is because you're essentially going over to his place and making it dirty and then leaving. First of all if you had to live with him, most guys are more tolerant of messiness than women. I guarantee that if you couldn't just walk out of the door and leave for a few days you'd start cleaning before him, if you want to turn it into a "tactic." Second of all that's as inconsiderate as most anything I can imagine because you're deliberately trashing his place in order to make him clean it. I don't understand why some women are so bitter about being in relationships where they try to manipulate it into some passive-aggressive warfare.

To 1path: if you managed to find someone who would pay you to be a mother, congratulations. I can't fault that because if the guy is willing to do it then that's his decision. I just can't imagine that most people (guys or girls) would want to salary their spouse to be a spouse.

 

[Noeljan]

I have news for you. You're being a jerk. The only reason what you do works is because you're essentially going over to his place and making it dirty and then leaving. First of all if you had to live with him, most guys are more tolerant of messiness than women. I guarantee that if you couldn't just walk out of the door and leave for a few days you'd start cleaning before him, if you want to turn it into a "tactic." Second of all that's as inconsiderate as most anything I can imagine because you're deliberately trashing his place in order to make him clean it. I don't understand why some women are so bitter about being in relationships where they try to manipulate it into some passive-aggressive warfare.

To 1path: if you managed to find someone who would pay you to be a mother, congratulations. I can't fault that because if the guy is willing to do it then that's his decision. I just can't imagine that most people (guys or girls) would want to salary their spouse to be a spouse.

wtf, you have no idea what you are talking about. It is pretty funny how *****ic your reply is. FYI I am the one with my own place. HE stays at MY place. He CLEANS MY PLACE.
Get a grip.

 

[Noeljan]

I have news for you. You're being a jerk. The only reason what you do works is because you're essentially going over to his place and making it dirty and then leaving. First of all if you had to live with him, most guys are more tolerant of messiness than women. I guarantee that if you couldn't just walk out of the door and leave for a few days you'd start cleaning before him, if you want to turn it into a "tactic." Second of all that's as inconsiderate as most anything I can imagine because you're deliberately trashing his place in order to make him clean it. I don't understand why some women are so bitter about being in relationships where they try to manipulate it into some passive-aggressive warfare.

To 1path: if you managed to find someone who would pay you to be a mother, congratulations. I can't fault that because if the guy is willing to do it then that's his decision. I just can't imagine that most people (guys or girls) would want to salary their spouse to be a spouse.

haha I still can't get over all of your wrong assumptions and notions that are SO fliiping off base, it's hysterical. never did I say I go to HIS place (which BTW he still lives at his parents), I said HE DID MY DISHES WHEN I LEFT THEM. Yep, that's right. Guys know how to do that stuff too. Oh and your other assumption, that guys are more tolerant to messes?? NOPE. I am a slob and I don't care if something stays there for a week even if I too much going on, him on the other hand, well he gets aggitated and starts cleaning.
I always find it so ridiculous when people feel that they know how every single persons situation or stereotype is correct.
Oh and sometimes, I even tell him to clean stuff. Yep it works, I got it like that

oh had to add one more against the usual, he is 4 years younger than me Yep.

 

[snoopy brown]

wtf, you have no idea what you are talking about. It is pretty funny how *****ic your reply is. FYI I am the one with my own place. HE stays at MY place. He CLEANS MY PLACE.
Get a grip.

It's interesting how you make a big deal about all my "wrong assumptions." It's irrelevant if it's your place. You essentially posted in order to brag about how you have this way of getting your boyfriend to clean for you. (By the way, you're clearly not telling the truth, either. You said at one point that you're more of a slob than him and can tolerate messes far more. Then you say that you tell him to clean up stuff.) It's sort of pathetic because you think that it's provocative and funny to act like you essentially have a male maid.

I would bet rather heavily that if I posted that I had a girlfriend who I had developed a method to make her clean for me and then said "it totally works!" you and the other hens would get quite agitated. And then if I tried to cover that by saying that oh by the way she's also young and I whip her around and tell her what to do your head would explode. But that's women for you.

 

[TopDocChick]

haha I still can't get over all of your wrong assumptions and notions that are SO fliiping off base, it's hysterical. never did I say I go to HIS place (which BTW he still lives at his parents), I said HE DID MY DISHES WHEN I LEFT THEM. Yep, that's right. Guys know how to do that stuff too. Oh and your other assumption, that guys are more tolerant to messes?? NOPE. I am a slob and I don't care if something stays there for a week even if I too much going on, him on the other hand, well he gets aggitated and starts cleaning.
I always find it so ridiculous when people feel that they know how every single persons situation or stereotype is correct.
Oh and sometimes, I even tell him to clean stuff. Yep it works, I got it like that

oh had to add one more against the usual, he is 4 years younger than me Yep.

Awesome guy, defintely a keeper!

Stereotypes are just plain stupid. We try never to succumb to them. My husband.... he cooks, cleans, launders, and loves doing it. He can't wait for me to be a doctor so he can afford to be home full time.
He is also great with our kids. When I am cooking (on the rare occasion) I can't even have my kids near me, but he lets them crack the eggs and mix the dough - i don't know how he does it. IT makes me crazy!

 

[1Path]

.....

 

[1Path]

To 1path: if you managed to find someone who would pay you to be a mother, congratulations. I can't fault that because if the guy is willing to do it then that's his decision. I just can't imagine that most people (guys or girls) would want to salary their spouse to be a spouse.

Pay me to be a mother? I don't think so. I don't recall seeing the words maid and cook in the Webster dictionary next to the word mother. And, BTW I was paid to be a chef and cleaning lady, and the last time I checked, that was WORK. So don't get it twisted again, Ok hun? FYI, having a husband is very much like having TWO kids as far as cooking and cleaning is concerned so yeah, my old man had to cough up the dough.

Man I don't know what kind of households you guys have/come from. There are NO freebies in mine. Hell, even the cat has a job to keep flying insects out!

And Nolejan, you go girl!

 

[snoopy brown]

And, BTW I was paid to be a chef and cleaning lady, and the last time I checked, that was WORK.

Like I said above, this is the typical female argument when it comes to this area. They say, I'm a chef, a cleaning lady, a chauffer, a day care worker, etc etc. Therefore according to my calculations I do sixty jobs which means I make $10 million/year, so really the guy owes me that much money.

So if that's the case, can the guy fire you if he wants? And hire someone else? And can he tell you to do something when he wants? That, after all, is the definition of "working" in that role. I'm not saying that what you do has no value. Far from it. But let's not go overboard and act like you "are a chef." Come on. That's like saying wives give Tylenol and Band-aids to their sick child so they're all doctors.

My simple point is that I find it all odd because you're all in the mentality of winning some battle with your spouses and boyfriends and congratulating each other for winning. When did it get to that?

 

[Noeljan]

Awesome guy, defintely a keeper!

Stereotypes are just plain stupid. We try never to succumb to them. My husband.... he cooks, cleans, launders, and loves doing it. He can't wait for me to be a doctor so he can afford to be home full time.
He is also great with our kids. When I am cooking (on the rare occasion) I can't even have my kids near me, but he lets them crack the eggs and mix the dough - i don't know how he does it. IT makes me crazy!

thanks. He really is a good guy. I think he is very used to that stuff at home (his mom cooks and cleans, does anything for anyone) she even makes me stuff So I really think he likes things more in order in the house than me. Funny his good friend is a post doc in the lab and his wife is an MD (my bf is a masters student), he is always trying to convince him to stay in science and let me be the doc so they can go to the lab, take care of home stuff, and have time to play video games Not that the lab is easy, heck I finished grad school, but it's a lot more flexible
you sound a lot like him and I if we have kids

 

[Empi]

It's interesting how you make a big deal about all my "wrong assumptions." It's irrelevant if it's your place. You essentially posted in order to brag about how you have this way of getting your boyfriend to clean for you. (By the way, you're clearly not telling the truth, either. You said at one point that you're more of a slob than him and can tolerate messes far more. Then you say that you tell him to clean up stuff.) It's sort of pathetic because you think that it's provocative and funny to act like you essentially have a male maid.

I would bet rather heavily that if I posted that I had a girlfriend who I had developed a method to make her clean for me and then said "it totally works!" you and the other hens would get quite agitated. And then if I tried to cover that by saying that oh by the way she's also young and I whip her around and tell her what to do your head would explode. But that's women for you.

Although there has been steady progress, it is still true that women are *expected* to be the caretakers and if a man does even the smallest good deed, he is lauded as such a find. There is a double standard in the expectations of a person, in general, based upon gender. Think of a dinner party or gathering and, chances are, the women instinctively start collecting the dishes and help the hostess clean up. This happens much more frequently than spontaneous clean-up among males. It *does* happen, and is actually happening in my own family (a fairly recent event.)

So, until th playing field is leveled, we "hens," will have our collective feathers in a ruffle.

 

[snoopy brown]

Although there has been steady progress, it is still true that women are *expected* to be the caretakers and if a man does even the smallest good deed, he is lauded as such a find. There is a double standard in the expectations of a person, in general, based upon gender.

I don't disagree there are differences; that's the funny part. What I think is silly is how women approach the issue, as if being the "caretaker" or "mother" is a dirty word or an insult, like "slave." Seriously, you guys have to let it go. Back in the '90s women would constantly mock and denigrate stay-at-home mothers for "wasting" their potential instead of working. Now women work at jobs and lots of studies show they hate it just as much as men (you think we all love the rat race?). So what's the solution? Apparently to continue thinking that the reason for everything is because men are still holding you down or abusing you or something.

Like I said, if you want perfect equity, then you need to act that way. In other words, like the "penisless man" that you were talking about originally. Not "I get to choose if I want kids," but "I don't have kids period." That's the essence of the issue. Women such as yourself want it all. You want to act like women, get paid and treated like men in the workplace, return to being treated like women in your personal lives, and have the ability to jump in between the two professionally. And you consider that to be reasonable. If you envy men so much, be a man.