Tramadol

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DOctorJay

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Saw this on another forum and am curious what other pain specialists think of this information. Anyone ever see seizures or serotonin syndrome in clinical practice from using Tramadol? I’ve never had any issues with prescribing it.

 
Saw this on another forum and am curious what other pain specialists think of this information. Anyone ever see seizures or serotonin syndrome in clinical practice from using Tramadol? I’ve never had any issues with prescribing it.



It is kind of the worst of both worlds: A crappy opioid and a ho-hum SNRI. Having said that, some patients do fine. I think it has the same NNT as Minuteman or Intracept.

I've used it for "breakthrough pain" with patients on a buprenorphine patch. Tapering gives you all the pleasures of both opioid and serotonin withdrawal. I've seen some patients come unglued...
 
Saw this on another forum and am curious what other pain specialists think of this information. Anyone ever see seizures or serotonin syndrome in clinical practice from using Tramadol? I’ve never had any issues with prescribing it.


I’ve never seen either and the risks are overstated. If someone is on a low-medium dose SSRI, I will use tramadol, despite whatever the pharmacist will say.

only an issue to mix with high doses of SSRI, tricyclics etc.

Tramadol is always the first Med I use for chronic, non neuropathic pain. The NNT isn’t that bad. I find it works at somewhat well or better for 50%, and quite well for 1/3 patients.

and if it does work, you are golden, so it should always be tried.
 
It is kind of the worst of both worlds: A crappy opioid and a ho-hum SNRI. Having said that, some patients do fine. I think it has the same NNT as Minuteman or Intracept.

I've used it for "breakthrough pain" with patients on a buprenorphine patch. Tapering gives you all the pleasures of both opioid and serotonin withdrawal. I've seen some patients come unglued...
Agree, Tramadol weans are rough.

For OP, I haven't seen any of serotonin side effects by mixing with other antidepressants, but I always keep in the back of my mind for medico-legal reasons if nothing else.
 
Agree, Tramadol weans are rough.

For OP, I haven't seen any of serotonin side effects by mixing with other antidepressants, but I always keep in the back of my mind for medico-legal reasons if nothing else.
What do u do for medico-legal protection? Just mention it to the patient?
 

"Lots.

1. It is an opiod but doesn't bind directly to opiod receptors/binds super weakly. Most of its opiod action is the result of a metabolite. So basically you are depending on the patient to have a good P450 system. A good portion of the population (up to 10%) don't have the right enzyme and then there are others who are ultrametabolizers. So basically, you are not prescribing a known amount of drug - just basically throwing at a dartboard blind.

2. Tramadol itself also acts as an SNRI. But none of its metabolites do. So between unknown opiod activity and the SNRI activity, you have an unknown mix of pharmacology.

3. Lots of side effect. Some of which likely connected to the SNRI effects. If you get the SNRI effect from the tramadol but it gets metabolized quickly, and you use tramadol persistantly, you get a cycle of withdrawal from the SNRI effects. People who use if for awhile get opiod withdrawal symptoms but it takes awhile because of the opiod metabolites that stick around - but they also get anxiety, panic attacks, hallucinations, etc associate with SNRI withdrawal, and that happens before the opiod withdrawal symptoms.

4. People mistakenly think it is good to prescribe a "weak" opiod because it has less addiction potential. But instead, what studies have found is that people take more tramadol to get analgesic effect. If you look at the studies, for a lot of people the actual analgeisa is equal to tylenol but worse than NSAIDs. So why bother? Just given them an actual opiod that you know will have X effect.

5. BMJ published a study that showed an association between postop op tramadol use for pain control and then persistent opiod use after the postop period - higher than other short acting opiods.

6. HUGE recreational use of tramadol worldwide - significantly euphoria association, studies have said consistent with heroin."

Summary: I don't let my residents prescribe it for my patients. You don't really know what the patient will be getting because it all depends on their P450 metabolism. It doesn't work well in general, and doesn't work at all for at least 10% of the population, but still has significant side effects."
 
I've never in my 14 years of practice seen this mythical creature called Serotonin Syndrome, even though many patients in my neck of the woods are on SSRI +TCA + sumatriptan + trazodone + Wellbutrin + muscle relaxer. I try to clean this list up when these patients land in my clinic.

IF I am starting Tramadol with concurrent SSRI or TCA or trazodone or Wellbutrin, I advise re: signs/symptoms and give the Mayo Clinic handout, ask them to review, go to ER if experiencing s/s, and I document this.





Mayo Clinic

Serotonin syndrome


Overview​

Serotonin syndrome occurs when you take medications that cause high levels of the chemical serotonin to accumulate in your body.
Serotonin is a chemical your body produces that's needed for your nerve cells and brain to function. But too much serotonin causes signs and symptoms that can range from mild (shivering and diarrhea) to severe (muscle rigidity, fever and seizures). Severe serotonin syndrome can cause death if not treated.

Serotonin syndrome can occur when you increase the dose of certain medications or add a new drug to your regimen. Some illegal drugs and dietary supplements also are associated with serotonin syndrome.
Milder forms of serotonin syndrome may go away within a day of stopping the medications that cause symptoms and, sometimes, after taking drugs that block serotonin.

Symptoms​

Serotonin syndrome symptoms usually occur within several hours of taking a new drug or increasing the dose of a drug you're already taking.
Signs and symptoms include:
  • Agitation or restlessness
  • Confusion
  • Rapid heart rate and high blood pressure
  • Dilated pupils
  • Loss of muscle coordination or twitching muscles
  • Muscle rigidity
  • Heavy sweating
  • Diarrhea
  • Headache
  • Shivering
  • Goose bumps
Severe serotonin syndrome can be life-threatening. Signs include:
  • High fever
  • Seizures
  • Irregular heartbeat
  • Unconsciousness

When to see a doctor​

If you suspect you might have serotonin syndrome after starting a new drug or increasing the dose of a drug you're already taking, call your doctor right away or go to the emergency room. If you have severe or rapidly worsening symptoms, seek emergency treatment immediately.

Causes​

Excessive accumulation of serotonin in your body creates the symptoms of serotonin syndrome.
Under normal circumstances, nerve cells in your brain and spinal cord produce serotonin that helps regulate your attention, behavior and body temperature.
Other nerve cells in your body, primarily in your intestines, also produce serotonin. Serotonin plays a role in regulating your digestive process, blood flow and breathing.
Although it's possible that taking just one drug that increases serotonin levels can cause serotonin syndrome in susceptible individuals, this condition occurs most often when you combine certain medications.
For example, serotonin syndrome may occur if you take an antidepressant with a migraine medication. It may also occur if you take an antidepressant with an opioid pain medication.
Another cause of serotonin syndrome is intentional overdose of antidepressant medications.
A number of over-the-counter and prescription drugs may be associated with serotonin syndrome, especially antidepressants. Illicit drugs and dietary supplements also may be associated with the condition.
The drugs and supplements that could potentially cause serotonin syndrome include:
  • Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), antidepressants such as citalopram (Celexa), fluoxetine (Prozac, Sarafem), fluvoxamine, paroxetine (Paxil, Pexeva, Brisdelle) and sertraline (Zoloft)
  • Serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors (SNRIs), antidepressants such as duloxetine (Cymbalta, Drizalma Sprinkle) and venlafaxine (Effexor XR)
  • Bupropion (Zyban, Wellbutrin SR, Wellbutrin XL), an antidepressant and tobacco-addiction medication
  • Tricyclic antidepressants, such as amitriptyline and nortriptyline (Pamelor)
  • Monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs), antidepressants such as isocarboxazid (Marplan) and phenelzine (Nardil)
  • Anti-migraine medications, such as carbamazepine (Tegretol, Carbatrol, others), valproic acid (Depakene) and triptans, which include almotriptan, naratriptan (Amerge) and sumatriptan (Imitrex, Tosymra, others)
  • Pain medications, such as opioid pain medications including codeine, fentanyl (Duragesic, Abstral, others), hydrocodone (Hysingla ER, Zohydro ER), meperidine (Demerol), oxycodone (Oxycontin, Roxicodone, others) and tramadol (Ultram, ConZip)
  • Lithium (Lithobid), a mood stabilizer
  • Illicit drugs, including LSD, ecstasy, cocaine and amphetamines
  • Herbal supplements, including St. John's wort, ginseng and nutmeg
  • Over-the-counter cough and cold medications containing dextromethorphan (Delsym)
  • Anti-nausea medications such as granisetron (Sancuso, Sustol), metoclopramide (Reglan), droperidol (Inapsine) and ondansetron (Zofran, Zuplenz)
  • Linezolid (Zyvox), an antibiotic
  • Ritonavir (Norvir), an anti-retroviral medication used to treat HIV

Risk factors​

Some people are more susceptible to the drugs and supplements that cause serotonin syndrome than are others, but the condition can occur in anyone.
You're at increased risk of serotonin syndrome if:
  • You recently started taking or increased the dose of a medication known to increase serotonin levels
  • You take more than one drug known to increase serotonin levels
  • You take herbal supplements known to increase serotonin levels
  • You use an illicit drug known to increase serotonin levels

Complications​

Serotonin syndrome generally doesn't cause any problems once serotonin levels are back to normal.
If left untreated, severe serotonin syndrome can lead to unconsciousness and death.

Prevention​

Taking more than one serotonin-related medication or increasing your dose of a serotonin-related medication increases your risk of serotonin syndrome.
Be sure to talk to your doctor if you or a family member has experienced symptoms after taking a medication.
Also talk to your doctor about possible risks. Don't stop taking any such medications on your own. If your doctor prescribes a new medication, make sure he or she knows about all the other medications you're taking, especially if you receive prescriptions from more than one doctor.
If you and your doctor decide the benefits of combining certain serotonin-level-affecting drugs outweigh the risks, be alert to the possibility of serotonin syndrome.
By Mayo Clinic Staff


.

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A single copy of these materials may be reprinted for noncommercial personal use only. "Mayo," "Mayo Clinic," "MayoClinic.org," "Mayo Clinic Healthy Living," and the triple-shield Mayo Clinic logo are trademarks of Mayo Foundation for Medical Education and Research.
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i think you guys are overthinking ultram, but ok.....max 150mg/day and dont mix with a bunch of antidepressants......and i also have never seen a serotonin syndrome....but im sure i will after tonight
 
i think you guys are overthinking ultram, but ok.....max 150mg/day and dont mix with a bunch of antidepressants......and i also have never seen a serotonin syndrome....but im sure i will after tonight

Do a Twitter search of tramadol. People calling it “TramaDon’t” and all kinds of pharmacists, toxicologists and ER docs making it out to be the worst drug out there.
 
I've never in my 14 years of practice seen this mythical creature called Serotonin Syndrome, even though many patients in my neck of the woods are on SSRI +TCA + sumatriptan + trazodone + Wellbutrin + muscle relaxer. I try to clean this list up when these patients land in my clinic.

IF I am starting Tramadol with concurrent SSRI or TCA or trazodone or Wellbutrin, I advise re: signs/symptoms and give the Mayo Clinic handout, ask them to review, go to ER if experiencing s/s, and I document this.





Mayo Clinic

Serotonin syndrome


Overview​

Serotonin syndrome occurs when you take medications that cause high levels of the chemical serotonin to accumulate in your body.
Serotonin is a chemical your body produces that's needed for your nerve cells and brain to function. But too much serotonin causes signs and symptoms that can range from mild (shivering and diarrhea) to severe (muscle rigidity, fever and seizures). Severe serotonin syndrome can cause death if not treated.

Serotonin syndrome can occur when you increase the dose of certain medications or add a new drug to your regimen. Some illegal drugs and dietary supplements also are associated with serotonin syndrome.
Milder forms of serotonin syndrome may go away within a day of stopping the medications that cause symptoms and, sometimes, after taking drugs that block serotonin.

Symptoms​

Serotonin syndrome symptoms usually occur within several hours of taking a new drug or increasing the dose of a drug you're already taking.
Signs and symptoms include:
  • Agitation or restlessness
  • Confusion
  • Rapid heart rate and high blood pressure
  • Dilated pupils
  • Loss of muscle coordination or twitching muscles
  • Muscle rigidity
  • Heavy sweating
  • Diarrhea
  • Headache
  • Shivering
  • Goose bumps
Severe serotonin syndrome can be life-threatening. Signs include:
  • High fever
  • Seizures
  • Irregular heartbeat
  • Unconsciousness

When to see a doctor​

If you suspect you might have serotonin syndrome after starting a new drug or increasing the dose of a drug you're already taking, call your doctor right away or go to the emergency room. If you have severe or rapidly worsening symptoms, seek emergency treatment immediately.

Causes​

Excessive accumulation of serotonin in your body creates the symptoms of serotonin syndrome.
Under normal circumstances, nerve cells in your brain and spinal cord produce serotonin that helps regulate your attention, behavior and body temperature.
Other nerve cells in your body, primarily in your intestines, also produce serotonin. Serotonin plays a role in regulating your digestive process, blood flow and breathing.
Although it's possible that taking just one drug that increases serotonin levels can cause serotonin syndrome in susceptible individuals, this condition occurs most often when you combine certain medications.
For example, serotonin syndrome may occur if you take an antidepressant with a migraine medication. It may also occur if you take an antidepressant with an opioid pain medication.
Another cause of serotonin syndrome is intentional overdose of antidepressant medications.
A number of over-the-counter and prescription drugs may be associated with serotonin syndrome, especially antidepressants. Illicit drugs and dietary supplements also may be associated with the condition.
The drugs and supplements that could potentially cause serotonin syndrome include:
  • Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), antidepressants such as citalopram (Celexa), fluoxetine (Prozac, Sarafem), fluvoxamine, paroxetine (Paxil, Pexeva, Brisdelle) and sertraline (Zoloft)
  • Serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors (SNRIs), antidepressants such as duloxetine (Cymbalta, Drizalma Sprinkle) and venlafaxine (Effexor XR)
  • Bupropion (Zyban, Wellbutrin SR, Wellbutrin XL), an antidepressant and tobacco-addiction medication
  • Tricyclic antidepressants, such as amitriptyline and nortriptyline (Pamelor)
  • Monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs), antidepressants such as isocarboxazid (Marplan) and phenelzine (Nardil)
  • Anti-migraine medications, such as carbamazepine (Tegretol, Carbatrol, others), valproic acid (Depakene) and triptans, which include almotriptan, naratriptan (Amerge) and sumatriptan (Imitrex, Tosymra, others)
  • Pain medications, such as opioid pain medications including codeine, fentanyl (Duragesic, Abstral, others), hydrocodone (Hysingla ER, Zohydro ER), meperidine (Demerol), oxycodone (Oxycontin, Roxicodone, others) and tramadol (Ultram, ConZip)
  • Lithium (Lithobid), a mood stabilizer
  • Illicit drugs, including LSD, ecstasy, cocaine and amphetamines
  • Herbal supplements, including St. John's wort, ginseng and nutmeg
  • Over-the-counter cough and cold medications containing dextromethorphan (Delsym)
  • Anti-nausea medications such as granisetron (Sancuso, Sustol), metoclopramide (Reglan), droperidol (Inapsine) and ondansetron (Zofran, Zuplenz)
  • Linezolid (Zyvox), an antibiotic
  • Ritonavir (Norvir), an anti-retroviral medication used to treat HIV

Risk factors​

Some people are more susceptible to the drugs and supplements that cause serotonin syndrome than are others, but the condition can occur in anyone.
You're at increased risk of serotonin syndrome if:
  • You recently started taking or increased the dose of a medication known to increase serotonin levels
  • You take more than one drug known to increase serotonin levels
  • You take herbal supplements known to increase serotonin levels
  • You use an illicit drug known to increase serotonin levels

Complications​

Serotonin syndrome generally doesn't cause any problems once serotonin levels are back to normal.
If left untreated, severe serotonin syndrome can lead to unconsciousness and death.

Prevention​

Taking more than one serotonin-related medication or increasing your dose of a serotonin-related medication increases your risk of serotonin syndrome.
Be sure to talk to your doctor if you or a family member has experienced symptoms after taking a medication.
Also talk to your doctor about possible risks. Don't stop taking any such medications on your own. If your doctor prescribes a new medication, make sure he or she knows about all the other medications you're taking, especially if you receive prescriptions from more than one doctor.
If you and your doctor decide the benefits of combining certain serotonin-level-affecting drugs outweigh the risks, be alert to the possibility of serotonin syndrome.
By Mayo Clinic Staff


.

Mayo Clinic Footer​

Legal Conditions and Terms​

Any use of this site constitutes your agreement to the Terms and Conditions and Privacy Policy linked below.

Advertising​

Mayo Clinic is a nonprofit organization and proceeds from Web advertising help support our mission. Mayo Clinic does not endorse any of the third party products and services advertised.

Reprint Permissions​

A single copy of these materials may be reprinted for noncommercial personal use only. "Mayo," "Mayo Clinic," "MayoClinic.org," "Mayo Clinic Healthy Living," and the triple-shield Mayo Clinic logo are trademarks of Mayo Foundation for Medical Education and Research.
© 1998-2021 Mayo Foundation for Medical Education and Research (MFMER). All rights reserved.
18 years in and have not seen....
 
My younger pts, who I consider higher risk for abuse, have no interest in Tramadol.

I've seen great responses to it and bad outcomes have been minor and transiemt. I had one LOL call me because she accidentally took a whole 50mg tab instead of the prescribed 25mg and vomited. Others just don't tolerate meds and it's not worth it.

I still rarely use it, partly because of the cumbersome hoops required to jump through to get it.

I think the bad outcomes and reputation in some circles are mostly due to indiscriminate and sloppy prescribing and abusive behavior.
 
My younger pts, who I consider higher risk for abuse, have no interest in Tramadol.

I've seen great responses to it and bad outcomes have been minor and transiemt. I had one LOL call me because she accidentally took a whole 50mg tab instead of the prescribed 25mg and vomited. Others just don't tolerate meds and it's not worth it.

I still rarely use it, partly because of the cumbersome hoops required to jump through to get it.

I think the bad outcomes and reputation in some circles are mostly due to indiscriminate and sloppy prescribing and abusive behavior.
Don't where I read it, but somewhere on this forum some guy keeps mentioning:

It's the person and not the drug.
 
i think you guys are overthinking ultram, but ok.....max 150mg/day and dont mix with a bunch of antidepressants......and i also have never seen a serotonin syndrome....but im sure i will after tonight
8 am tomorrow you will get a call with someone having racing heart
 
Do a Twitter search of tramadol. People calling it “TramaDon’t” and all kinds of pharmacists, toxicologists and ER docs making it out to be the worst drug out there.
And none of those people are asked to prescribe opioids long term and have our pain expertise so I could care less what they think or complain about.

i agree with Steve that Tramadol should be available OTC.
 
And none of those people are asked to prescribe opioids long term and have our pain expertise so I could care less what they think or complain about.

i agree with Steve that Tramadol should be available OTC.
I also agree, always try tramadol before a full agonists. Risk of addiction or misuse with full agonists far outweighs the remote chance of serotonin syndrome.

I also wonder about sedation syndrome, had someone on 120 mg Cymbalta that gave me pause, also people in multiple antidepressants I typically don’t give tramadol, but now I’m rethinking it, maybe just give them the Mayo handout and some education.
 
I never prescribe if patients have a history of seizures. Is this overblown too?
 
in Florida the new opioid prescribing laws limiting opiates to 3-5 day supplies unless diagnosis of cancer have made Tramadol Rx's skyrocket. So maybe more Rx's means more incidents.
 
Which is what?
This particular patient had a lot of neuropsych complaints such as restlessness, anxiety, insomnia, and excessive sweating. On exam he was diffusely hyper reflexic and tachy with a clean cervical MRI. Upon med review he was on like 4 different serotonergic drugs all at moderately high doses. Told him what it could be and to consider tapering down some of his psych meds. He talked to his psych who agreed. Saw him 6 weeks later and all his symptoms were gone
 
I prescribe a lot of Tramadol and for > 10 years: (also a lot of Nucynta)

1. Mild to perhaps moderate serotonin syndrome maybe 1-2 times total. My psych colleague down the hall likes to say: "seen often in the textbooks and rarely in the wild"

2. Maybe once or twice in 10 years did it possibly seem like someone was 'seeking' tramadol. The chemical copers and addicts want no part of it, in general

3. Much less tolerance issues with tramadol vs reg opioids

4. Have not really seen w/d issues described above, BUT I have seen that with SNRI's like Cymbalta

5. Less constipation/sedation

Honestly I find it a great arrow in the quiver
 
N=1, but I've been on tramadol for over 10 years to treat chronic pain from a broken back/wrist.

Never had ss, but the mood upping is the real deal. Also never took more than 50mg per day.

It did fog my memory slightly and impair concentration. For that reason I discontinued use about a month ago. Not sure I would be able to keep up in MD1 while on it.

Also, the withdrawal was intense.
 
N=1, but I've been on tramadol for over 10 years to treat chronic pain from a broken back/wrist.

Never had ss, but the mood upping is the real deal. Also never took more than 50mg per day.

It did fog my memory slightly and impair concentration. For that reason I discontinued use about a month ago. Not sure I would be able to keep up in MD1 while on it.

Also, the withdrawal was intense.
Withdrawal from 1 50mg daily??
 
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