True Pass/Fail vs. Graded Pass/Fail (honors)

[sappho]

Hi! I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I can't seem to find any recent threads on it (please let me know if there are so I can take a look at them!)

But i was wondering what the pros and cons are for medical schools with a true P/F system vs. a school with a graded P/F system (like Honors Pass vs. Highest Honors Pass etc.). I'm looking to go to a state medical school, not crazy prestigious or anything but has had rlly great match results the past years. One of the schools I'm looking at is a true p/f school that doesn't rank (with the exception of getting top 20% for AOA stuff), and another school I'm looking at is graded p/f meaning they do honors system plus they rank (deciles i believe) and participate in aoa.

Many people I've talked to (premeds and m1s) have told me to go to the true p/f school no doubt, just because it would be less competitive and less stressful

yet, I recently spoke to an m3 who told me the opposite--that i should not go to a school w a true p/f system because it won't help me when i apply to residencies (given the prestige level of the schools I'm looking at)

I know there isn't a definitive answer, but I've always been confused as to what the different P/F systems are trying to achieve? And whether my ultimate decision is to decide where I think I'll be the happiest vs. where I think will get me to where I want to be? Or is there a happy medium, idk?

Any insight would be appreciated! Thanks

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[mangowolf]

are we talking preclinical true P/F? i think even if the true P/F school is not that prestigious, you can still set yourself apart with graded clinicals there. definitely choose the school with true P/F with all else equal

 

[cornelder]

I believe what your ms3 friend is referring to is that preclinical grades matter so little for residency, it's not worth choosing a school that has p/f vs graded. For one, clearly the school you are referring to isn't p/f without rankings if they use it for AOA. It may not be visible but they definitely have internal rankings. As someone who goes to a non pure P/F school (which most schools are, so long as AOA is determined by grades), I can honestly say having grades vs no grades doesn't really effect how I study especially because our school uses NBME exams rather than in house. They only reason I can see why p/f may matter a bit more is if you have pure in-house exams and studying for baords would cause you to not pass your exams entirely possibly but otherwise, I don't think really think it's as big a deal as people make it.

tldr; people overhype the penalties of p/f systems. If you have AOA, you already don't have pure p/f and most residencies don't look at preclinical grades just to toss out people with a pass vs honors.

 

[Goro]

Hi! I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I can't seem to find any recent threads on it (please let me know if there are so I can take a look at them!)

But i was wondering what the pros and cons are for medical schools with a true P/F system vs. a school with a graded P/F system (like Honors Pass vs. Highest Honors Pass etc.). I'm looking to go to a state medical school, not crazy prestigious or anything but has had rlly great match results the past years. One of the schools I'm looking at is a true p/f school that doesn't rank (with the exception of getting top 20% for AOA stuff), and another school I'm looking at is graded p/f meaning they do honors system plus they rank (deciles i believe) and participate in aoa.

Many people I've talked to (premeds and m1s) have told me to go to the true p/f school no doubt, just because it would be less competitive and less stressful

yet, I recently spoke to an m3 who told me the opposite--that i should not go to a school w a true p/f system because it won't help me when i apply to residencies (given the prestige level of the schools I'm looking at)

I know there isn't a definitive answer, but I've always been confused as to what the different P/F systems are trying to achieve? And whether my ultimate decision is to decide where I think I'll be the happiest vs. where I think will get me to where I want to be? Or is there a happy medium, idk?

Any insight would be appreciated! Thanks

The HP/H/P/F system is simply the a b c f system dressed up in fancier wording.

If you're given the choice between the two and everything else is equal, I recommend the pass-fail system, because then you don't have to stress so much

 

[KnightDoc]

Many people I've talked to (premeds and m1s) have told me to go to the true p/f school no doubt, just because it would be less competitive and less stressful

yet, I recently spoke to an m3 who told me the opposite--that i should not go to a school w a true p/f system because it won't help me when i apply to residencies (given the prestige level of the schools I'm looking at)

I know there isn't a definitive answer, but I've always been confused as to what the different P/F systems are trying to achieve? And whether my ultimate decision is to decide where I think I'll be the happiest vs. where I think will get me to where I want to be? Or is there a happy medium, idk?

I think you have all the relevant information.

True P/F is trying to reduce stress, and it does, without impacting match results at prestigious schools. As your M3 friend pointed out, however, lower ranked schools don't have that prestige to fall back on, so how are top students supposed to distinguish themselves at lower ranked schools if they want "really great match results"?

One of those ways is with high grades, which is why some non-top schools have resisted the trend to go true P/F/ There is no right or wrong answer here. You have to figure out whether competing for grades is going to stress you out, and whether you think you are going to need to distinguish yourself with top grades (i.e., are you gunning for a "really great match" in a competitive specialty?). If not, go the less stressful route. If so, ask yourself how you are going to get where you want to go from a mid tier or below school where PDs don't have grades to separate you from the rest of your class.

 

[singkwon]

But i was wondering what the pros and cons are for medical schools with a true P/F system vs. a school with a graded P/F system (like Honors Pass vs. Highest Honors Pass etc.). I'm looking to go to a state medical school, not crazy prestigious or anything but has had rlly great match results the past years. One of the schools I'm looking at is a true p/f school that doesn't rank (with the exception of getting top 20% for AOA stuff), and another school I'm looking at is graded p/f meaning they do honors system plus they rank (deciles i believe) and participate in aoa.

Many people I've talked to (premeds and m1s) have told me to go to the true p/f school no doubt, just because it would be less competitive and less stressful

yet, I recently spoke to an m3 who told me the opposite--that i should not go to a school w a true p/f system because it won't help me when i apply to residencies (given the prestige level of the schools I'm looking at)

I know there isn't a definitive answer, but I've always been confused as to what the different P/F systems are trying to achieve? And whether my ultimate decision is to decide where I think I'll be the happiest vs. where I think will get me to where I want to be? Or is there a happy medium, idk?

Any insight would be appreciated! Thanks

Most pre med students simply want to get accepted to “a school”. But if you’re fortunate and have multiple acceptances, I would focus on finances, location, grading system, prestige etc. Some top schools do use a true P/F system. Some have also done away with AOA chapters due to perceived bias in the selection of membership (off top of my head, I can think of Duke and UCSF). Whether your accepted school has / has not AOA is beyond your control. This also applies to the grading system (true PF vs rebranded tiered grades: P/F/HP/H). You should also look at the residency match list and see where students end up (location, specialty etc ). Also research how your future medical school writes the MSPE (medical student performance evaluation) - formerly known as the “Dean’s letter”. This letter is submitted by your medical school to residency programs - it is a “summary” of your academic performance and traditionally it would conclude with an adjective / code word indicating your ranking (outstanding, excellent, very good, etc.). Top schools like UCSF and Harvard explicitly state they do not use these code words. Now that USMLE step 1 has gone to Pass Fail, more emphasis will be placed on Step 2, clinical grades (pre clinical grades are not so important). Competitive residencies need some way to distinguish applicants. So if your school doesn’t have grades but has the name, this can help with your residency applications. But most schools do have some sort of grading system, so in the end it will depend on how much work you put in to get to where you want to be. Hope this helps.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

If you’re going to mid or low tier schools and want a competitive residency, you probably want a school that does rankings and AOA. Also important to factor in past performance: if you finished in the top 10% at an Ivy, you can probably finish in a high decile/quartile at a mid to low tier,

Top tier schools— having ranking is much less important

 

[KnightDoc]

If you’re going to mid or low tier schools and want a competitive residency, you probably want a school that does rankings and AOA. Also important to factor in past performance: if you finished in the top 10% at an Ivy, you can probably finish in a high decile/quartile at a mid to low tier,

Top tier schools— having ranking is much less important

Agree with the first part of your post. Strongly disagree with the second. Med school admission is really difficult for everyone.

If being in the top 10% of an Ivy was such a powerful leading indicator of med school performance, why would that person find themself at a low-mid tier in the first place? Trust me, there are PLENTY of people who cannot do better than low-mid tier, merely because they are not coming from Ivies, who are capable of running rings around anyone who also finds themself at that school after taking into account whatever benefit they received from being in the top 10% at an Ivy.

I really wouldn't take anything for granted here if I were you. Just about everyone in med school is really, really smart. Even people who didn't go to Ivies at all, let alone those who weren't in the top 10% there. Only 10-25% of them will be in the top 10-25% at med school. And THIS is why people value not being graded or ranked, if they are lucky or good enough to be able to go to a top school that doesn't need to rank its students to make them competitive for top residencies.

 

[esob]

Even w/ step 1 being P/F, I still feel like there will always be a national level metric test that programs will look to (Step 2 for now). That said, how you do in preclinicals is less important than how you perform on something like Step 2. As Goro likes to say, med school is a furnace, and anything you can do to turn the heat down is a good strategy in my book, and having gone to a true P/F school, it definitely helped.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

If being in the top 10% of an Ivy was such a powerful leading indicator of med school performance, why would that person find themself at a low-mid tier in the first place? Trust me, there

Red flag in application for instance

 

[KnightDoc]

Red flag in application for instance

As with pretty much everything else, you, my friend, are the exception to the rule!

The mistake you repeatedly make is extrapolating your experience to everyone else. You are overcoming a self inflicted wound very few successfully overcome, which is why you received the advice you did from the experts when you first started asking around. You have a history of performance and excellence wherever you go. You will be fine.

OTOH, if everyone could do it, we'd all have HYPSM UGs under our belts, we'd all be working on Wall Street, we'd all be able to overcome a serious IA and have multiple med school acceptances. You know you are not like everyone else, so why do you keep projecting what might be true for you onto everyone else?

Most people (around 90% at any school, high, mid or low tier) will not be in the top 10% at any med school, even if they were in the top 10% at an Ivy UG. There are a ton of really, really highly motivated, smart people at every school, even the lower tier ones. Trust me, I've personally known quite a few of them, almost all of whom did not come from top tier UGs.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

The only true pass/fail schools are UCSF and Harvard. All the rest embed ranking in their MSPE.

 

[Lifeblood_20]

My school is p/f pre-clinical and H/HP/P clinical and has AOA.
I can say P/f has done wonders for my health and wellness and lets me have a nice personal life outside of school. Idk what it will be like in 2 years but I will always prioritize my well-being over rankings and grades.