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Two Related Topics: Massive A-Delta Excitation and Nociassociation

Discussion in 'Orthopaedic Surgery' started by Green Xenon, Apr 16, 2007.

  1. Green Xenon

    Green Xenon Membership Revoked

    Mar 24, 2007
    Likes Received:

    Please read my attachment in the following link -- http://forums.studentdoctor.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=8023&d=1175119927 -- I desperately request that someone please answer the following question. Sorry if this message annoys anyone.

    Do any of the doctors/scientists agree with the following quotes from the attachment and the martial-arts website? :

    "2. The a-delta excitation simulates SEVERE injury and causes the brain to releases cascades of endorphins

    3. A psychogenic* blackout will occur due to the *extreme* psychic trauma caused by the a-delta excitation.

    4. Pain-induced coma caused by alteration of the signals of RAS [Reticular Activation System], as mentioned on http://www.internetarmory.com/self_defense.htm

    Quote from http://www.internetarmory.com/self_defense.htm :

    "It is speculated that various organs of the body can send pain impulses to the brain stem indicating a severe or overwhelming bodily injury. The reticular activating system responds by producing a functional "shut down", which results in loss of consciousness within a second or two."

    *Along with the endorphins and hypotension, the a-delta excitation causes ACUTE psychological trauma. Due to this, the executionee won't feel the pain, even if the hypotension, pain-induced RAS coma, and endorphins don't kick in. This is because extreme mental trauma causes blackouts even if no mechanical injury has occurred. Such blackouts are common in war veterans, prisoners, victims of natural disasters, those who have lost a loved one, witnessing a tragedy, as well as those subjected to childhood abuse or molestation. These blackouts are known to occur even in the complete absence of bleeding, head-injuries, pain-induced RAS coma, seizures, endorphins, or circulatory disturbances. The brain automatically prevents the traumatized individual from consciously perceiving the emotional agony. It’s a protective mechanism for the psyche."

    Also, does anyone know how this emotional protective mechanism works?

    Nociassociation is extremely dangerous and is something that all surgeons, doctors, patients must be made aware of.

    http://www.mercksource.com/pp/us/cns/cns_hl_dorlands.jspzQzpgzEzzSzppdocszSzuszSzcommon zSzdorlandszSzdorlandzSzdmd_n_09zPzhtm

    "nociassociation = the unconscious discharge of nervous energy under the stimulus of trauma, as in surgical shock."

    This means a patient who is totally-unconscious can still experience shock as a result of the nociception that results from the physical injuries that occur during the surgery.

    Nociception = a measurable physiological event of a type usually associated with pain and agony and suffering

    Nociceptor = sensory receptor that sends signals that cause the perception of pain in response to potentially damaging stimulus. Nociceptors are the nerve endings responsible for nociception.

    Just because you aren't aware of the pain doesn't mean it isn't significantly affecting your emotions and autonomic nervous system.

    Pain can kill even if the victim doesn't feel it. While may not be felt consciously, the unconscious still feels it. As a result, excruciating pain can screw-up the nervous system enough to cause shock -- and even death -- even if the victim is totally unconscious.

    Even during the deepest coma, emotions -- such as fear -- can remain active, it�s just that the patient isn't aware of it.

    Hence, when an unconscious patient is operated on, the nociception causes pain just as it would in a conscious individual. This pain causes tremendous emotional distress. The emotional distress causes neurogenic shock, even though the patient is not aware of -- and does not consciously feel -- the distress or the pain.

    These psychoneurophysiological effects of nociception can cause a potentially-fatal shock reaction even if:

    1. There is minimal or no bleeding
    2. No infection occurs
    3. The patient isn't aware of the pain or emotional distress cause by the pain
    4. There is no injury to any vital organ

    This shock is called nociassociation and cannot be prevented even by inducing the deepest coma.

    My point is that inducing unconsciousness might prevent the surgery-patient from consciously-perceiving the suffering caused by his/her injuries but this does not prevent the subconscious elements of the nervous system from feeling the agony. The subconscious parts of the nervous system -- which are concerned with emotions and regulate the circulatory system -- can still feel the intense emotional suffering caused by the nociception. The extreme emotional distress caused by the severe pain results in neurogenic shock. Nociassociative neurogenic shock is marked by the following extreme changes in the circulatory system:

    1. Force of the heart muscles' contractions decrease significantly
    2. Heart rate decreases dramatically.
    3. General increase in the heart muscles' relaxability
    4. Blood vessels throughout the body widen to total dilation

    The above 4 conspire to cause a lethal drop in blood pressure. As a result, vital organs are deprived of blood leading to multiple-organ-failure. This can rapidly kill the patient.

    This means, the subconscious parts of the nervous system must somehow be temporarily disconnected from pain perception prior to and during the surgical operation.

    In order for the surgery not to result in a likely-fatal nociassociation, the patient's entire autonomic nervous system [and their effectors], limbic system [emotion], his/her heart's natural pacemaker, smooth muscles, reflexes [all types; including reflexes not involved with the autonomic nervous system], endocrine and hormonal systems must be rendered totally unresponsive to the infliction of even the most excruciating pain, totally unresponsive to any type of injury [regardless of severity], and totally unresponsive to any emotions or psychological states [regardless of intensity].

    The best way to do this is to somehow anesthetize all sensory-receptors and sensory nerves at the site of the operation before the surgery and make sure they are completely numb throughout the surgery and for at least 15 minutes after the surgery is complete. After 15 minutes the sensory-receptors and sensory nerves at the affected site should be allowed to *gradually* resume activity. It should take at least an additional hour for these sensory receptors and nerves to regain complete "wakefulness". This will prevent the root-cause of nociassociation.

    Note: nociassociation is one of the major reasons that martial-arts relies on pain-sensitive areas of the body as targets. This is how a punch to the solar plexus can kill.

    General anesthesia usually involves giving a barbiturate -- or other CNS depressant -- which acts directly on the reticular formation and causes unconsciousness. The loss of consciousness has no mitigating effect on the limbic system or its connections with circulatory functions.

    If general anesthesia acted on the peripheral tactile nerve-endings and put them in a relaxed state � and/or rendered the patient's entire autonomic nervous system [and their effectors], limbic system [emotion], his/her heart's natural pacemaker, smooth muscles, reflexes [all types; including reflexes not involved with the autonomic nervous system], endocrine and hormonal systems totally unresponsive to the infliction of even the most excruciating pain, totally unresponsive to any type of injury [regardless of severity], and totally unresponsive to any emotions or psychological states [regardless of intensity] --, then nociassociation would be something of no concern. However, general anesthesia does not do any such thing. Hence, tactile nerves and the limbic system are just as vulnerable during general anesthesia, as they would be, without anesthesia. General anesthesia prevents conscious awareness of the pain, injury, and emotional distress. However, it does not mitigate the pain or emotional trauma itself. Hence, neurocirculatory functions are not protected from the pain or the resulting unconscious mental distress. During the operation, the pain -- caused by the surgical injuries causes the unconscious mind to badly "want" to escape the inescapable. The unconscious psyche is extremely desperate to flee the painful situation. This causes extreme amounts of stress on the limbic system -- which is so closely connected to the neural control of circulatory functions. As a result, the autonomic nervous system is bombarded by signals from the limbic system and causes the muscles of the circulatory system to relax -- leading to bradycardia [abnormally slow heart rate] and vasodilation [widening of blood vessels]. This results in a severe drop in blood pressure, starving vital organs of the blood they need.


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  3. Debridement

    Debridement Member
    2+ Year Member

    May 9, 2006
    Likes Received:
    This post is nociceptive and is causing my RAS to shut down.

    DB out...

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