U Chicago vs NW

[DrRads101]

i was awed by nw and have no knocks against it and would prefer the curriculum there.

If you prefer the curriculum of one place over the other, PLEASE, for the love of God, CHOOSE THE CURRICULUM YOU PREFER. I mean, the curriculum *WILL BE* your life. Choosing a school based on a subjective vibe you may or may have not picked up on during interview day OVER what you will spend every waking hour of your life doing (i.e., the curriculum) is not something I would recommend.

I'm not just saying this because you said you prefer NU's curriculum either. Your waking, breathing life will consist of 1) Location (where you spend it), and 2) The school's curriculum (how you spend it).

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[blump]

If you prefer the curriculum of one place over the other, PLEASE, for the love of God, CHOOSE THE CURRICULUM YOU PREFER. I mean, the curriculum *WILL BE* your life. Choosing a school based on a subjective vibe you may or may have not picked up on during interview day OVER what you will spend every waking hour of your life doing (i.e., the curriculum) is not something I would recommend.

I'm not just saying this because you said you prefer NU's curriculum either. Your waking, breathing life will consist of 1) Location (where you spend it), and 2) The school's curriculum (how you spend it).

While 2 hours of lecture and all the PBL sounds good, I cant help think that the lecture, small group learning format at U Chicago would give more interaction between faculty and students. Might as well get my money's worth. Also, NW grades on a curve where our tour guide told us some people fail while U Chicago 60% = Pass. Correct me if Im wrong ctwickman

 

[DrRads101]

While 2 hours of lecture and all the PBL sounds good, I cant help think that the lecture, small group learning format at U Chicago would give more interaction between faculty and students. Might as well get my money's worth. Also, NW grades on a curve where our tour guide told us some people fail while U Chicago 60% = Pass. Correct me if Im wrong ctwickman

I am no expert on UChicago's curriculum, but I can't imagine it having more small group and faculty interaction than ours because that is what our entire curriculum is based around. It's why they give a panel interview--to see how you interact in small groups and with faculty present. Outside of 2 hours of lecture, everything is small group with faculty, and I mean everything. PBL (9 with faculty), labs (5 with faculty), PPS colleges (40 with faculty), PPS small groups and ethics (10 with faculty), CDM (40 with faculty divided into 10 with faculty for the 2nd hour), MDM, PEX/physical exam skills (3-5 with faculty), et al.

As far as the curve, you fail a test if you are 2 standard deviations below the mean. No more than 5 people are allowed to fail an exam, out of a class of 182. If you end up being one of those people that fail a test, you just retake it later on in the summer. You have to actually try to fail an exam IMO. Two standard deviations below the mean is less than 60% so it's at least as hard to fail here as UChicago, maybe harder because our tests are 100% board-style multiple choice and not essay based (if you want to talk about getting your money's worth, how does is sound that our exams are written by Dr. Jay Thomas who also writes for the USMLE?).

 

[blump]

I am no expert on UChicago's curriculum, but I can't imagine it having more small group and faculty interaction than ours because that is what our entire curriculum is based around. It's why they give a panel interview--to see how you interact in small groups and with faculty present. Outside of 2 hours of lecture, everything is small group with faculty, and I mean everything. PBL (9 with faculty), labs (5 with faculty), PPS colleges (40 with faculty), PPS small groups and ethics (10 with faculty), CDM (40 with faculty divided into 10 with faculty for the 2nd hour), MDM, PEX/physical exam skills (3-5 with faculty), et al.

As far as the curve, you fail a test if you are 2 standard deviations below the mean. No more than 5 people are allowed to fail an exam, out of a class of 182. If you end up being one of those people that fail a test, you just retake it later on in the summer. You have to actually try to fail an exam IMO. Two standard deviations below the mean is less than 60% so it's at least as hard to fail here as UChicago, maybe harder because our tests are 100% board-style multiple choice and not essay based (if you want to talk about getting your money's worth, how does is sound that our exams are written by Dr. Jay Thomas who also writes for the USMLE?).

Very good info, thank you, would you happen to have a link to NW's matchlist?

 

[DrRads101]

Very good info, thank you, would you happen to have a link to NW's matchlist?

No, but I'm sure it's somewhere on this site: http://www.infoplex.northwestern.edu/

 

[VeggieGal]

our tour guide told me at uchicago that it is extremely hard to fail. if you are in danger of failing, the prof will contact you and you arrange some way to make up the work and pass. also, he said, it is not uncommon for people to retake tests if they fail them. he said that the administration wants you to be very relaxed about your education and have time to do other things besides just study. he also said only the first to quarters have long class hours, from 8:30-4 and after that is from 8:30-12. he said in the first two quarters you do get about a 2 hour lunch break so you are not in class the whole time.

those were two of my bigger concerns so i thought that i would just pass along the info.

 

[blump]

No, but I'm sure it's somewhere on this site: http://www.infoplex.northwestern.edu/

http://www.infoplex.northwestern.edu/class/alumni/match/2004match.php

NW

http://pritzker.bsd.uchicago.edu/students/index.html?content=prospective.html

U Chicago (sort of)

 

[Explosivo]

hey all,

I'm currently an MSII at Pritzker. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

 

[FloridaMadame]

hey all,

I'm currently an MSII at Pritzker. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

We've been hearing alot of personal opinions from ctwickman from northwestern. His posts have really been exceptionally helpful but I would love to hear a viewpoint from someone actually at Pritzker: ie: stress level, chance to chill, gunner level, neighborhood, housing, etc. I am hoping to go back there in May for a 2nd look, but just in case I can't, anything you can add would be great. Right now, my big question is: what are the odds of getting a residency back east (NY). It appears that most students stay in the midwest or go to Cali. Is this a personal choice or a problem with matching in the east?

 

[blump]

We've been hearing alot of personal opinions from ctwickman from northwestern. His posts have really been exceptionally helpful but I would love to hear a viewpoint from someone actually at Pritzker: ie: stress level, chance to chill, gunner level, neighborhood, housing, etc. I am hoping to go back there in May for a 2nd look, but just in case I can't, anything you can add would be great. Right now, my big question is: what are the odds of getting a residency back east (NY). It appears that most students stay in the midwest or go to Cali. Is this a personal choice or a problem with matching in the east?

I would like to hear from a Pritzker student as well if there is anyone out there. To answer your question about residency though, i have heard it is easier to get one back east from Chicago than NW.

 

[DrRads101]

To answer your question about residency though, i have heard it is easier to get one back east from Chicago than NW.

I can't imagine why this would be. The schools are dead even reputation wise among residency directors, and our average Step I scores are higher than UChicago. Step I scores are probably the most important factor to getting considered for a residency, all things being equal. Maybe less people from Feinberg apply out east in the first place because they love the area so much and want to stay here? I know most of my classmates want to stay here for residency. 🙂

That being said, UChicago is an unbelievable school and has a very very strong rep. Everything about these schools is so different though, that I don't see this decision being hard for you guys when it comes down to it. If they both weren't in Chicago they wouldn't even be compared.

 

[derzornhistolog]

Ctwickman (and/or any other NU students), I have some questions for you regarding the quality of the Northwestern faculty:

a) Do you believe your profs are able to give you a clinical problem-solving approach that is significantly superior to that of most American or Canadian-trained doctor? I know that this is very hard to gauge, but your experience thus far must give you some impression of how staggeringly intelligent (or how pedestrian) your profs are. Any thoughts are welcome.

b) Are your profs coming from the best schools / residencies in the country? Am I mistaken in thinking that if your profs have experienced the best in medical education, they in turn are better equipped to provide you with the best education (applying unique and effective teaching techniques yada yada...)?

c) How many of your profs - with whom you have regular direct contact - are world-leaders in their fields? Are these preponderantly academic leaders or clinical leaders?

d) How readily accessible are your profs?

Thanks muchly - and if you could persuade a few of your colleagues to weigh in, I'd be doubly obliged.
____________________________________

Ceterum Censeo Carthaginem Delenda Est

 

[DrRads101]

Hey Derzon,

Those are some really deep questions and difficult to answer, since they are asking one to compare something that a student here would not necessarily have experience with since we only attend one school. 🙂

Here's the best I can do with them:

I'm not sure if you know how med school is taught, but we have different professors every day, if not every lecture hour. It is not unusual and in fact very common for us to have two different lecturers per day. I must have had over 50 different lecturers by now, so it is really difficult to gauge and to answer your questions regarding teaching style. Every professor is different and has a different style. If you don't like one, wait an hour and a new one will come in for the 2nd hour. If you like one, you may never see him/her again. There are obviously professors I have liked, and ones I have not. They are here to teach you though and not trick you like many are in college. The exams and teaching are totally straightforward and board-style, which is great preparation for the Step I's. And our course director, Dr. Jay Thomas, writes for the USMLE and tries to reflect that exam through ours, so you get great prep for 2 years straight from the horses mouth sort of speak.

Each subject (lecture hour) is taught by an expert/active researcher on that specific topic--not a "general doctor" or practitioner. Anatomy, for instance, is taught by someone with a Ph.D. in Anatomy, etc., not a Neurologist or a Family Practice physician. All profs have Ph.D's or MD's and I'm sure they graduated from great schools, but their past history (where they went to school) rarely if ever comes up during lecture--they get right down to business to teach. So I can't answer your question where everyone went for training, but the accents of the professors definetly varies, from the Boston accent to English to Italian to good old Chicagoan.

As far as clinical teaching, we get brief clinical examples at the end of every lecture.That's the written stuff. 1st year. 2nd year is completely 100% clinical academia. Actual clinical TRAINING with patients begins immediately upon arrival after your road trip to Lake Geneva, and obviously continues through the end of school and progresses into real-life situations as the months and years go by, and before you know it you are in the hospital solving real life problems. It's a great system that allows you to become a doctor IMO without even trying, because you are taking baby steps from day one.

As far as how accessible the professors are, they are very accessible. You are paying $37K a year to go here. They better be there for you! 🙂

That's about all I can tell you. I am really confused about your first question though because I have not experienced training, per say, from anyone other than Northwestern faculty, so I wouldn't know how well or how bad your average American doctor would teach, but at the very least I would assume that the NU faculty must be better at teaching because it is their job, they are experts, and most of these profs have been here teaching longer than I've been alive.

 

[DrRads101]

BTW as much as I love reading these boards and hearing you guys make these all-important decisions, I have to take a much needed break from this forum, as it is now crunch time for me with musculoskeletal for next week. So if you have any further questions or concerns, feel free to PM me a week or two before 2nd look weekend and we'll definetly meet up during your stay here. I'll still check back in on these Northwestern threads from time to time though... Later guys! I hope you all decide to come here and are as happy I am with the program and the lifestyle...

 

[Explosivo]

We've been hearing alot of personal opinions from ctwickman from northwestern. His posts have really been exceptionally helpful but I would love to hear a viewpoint from someone actually at Pritzker: ie: stress level, chance to chill, gunner level, neighborhood, housing, etc. I am hoping to go back there in May for a 2nd look, but just in case I can't, anything you can add would be great. Right now, my big question is: what are the odds of getting a residency back east (NY). It appears that most students stay in the midwest or go to Cali. Is this a personal choice or a problem with matching in the east?

I'll try and post something this weekend, after I come out of the drunken stupor/hangover i'll be in following my CPP&T megafinal on friday. I'm a bit pre-occupied at the moment. 😀

But briefly:

1. My class stress level is 'chill' bordering on 'party animal' with an occassional "oh **** I forgot to study renal, leave me alone, no I can't go out tonight!" mixed in.

2. The quote "where fun comes to die" is an expression used amongst the undergrads here, who to be honest, have it very rough in terms of academic demands...far worse than us.

3. You won't have a problem getting a good residency spot whether its NU or Pritzker. Don't overanalyze about whether getting one back east, west, north, south, outer space, etc, too much. The biggest factor for this is YOU. Our 2004 match list was good b/c the people, and I can verify this personally, were quite exceptional that year.

As for NU, don't know much about the place but heard plenty of innuendo about it through the grape vine so to speak but nothing I would consider worth repeating here and passing off to you guys.

 

[FloridaMadame]

BTW as much as I love reading these boards and hearing you guys make these all-important decisions, I have to take a much needed break from this forum, as it is now crunch time for me with musculoskeletal for next week. So if you have any further questions or concerns, feel free to PM me a week or two before 2nd look weekend and we'll definetly meet up during your stay here. I'll still check back in on these Northwestern threads from time to time though... Later guys! I hope you all decide to come here and are as happy I am with the program and the lifestyle...

Good luck studying and thanks for all of your help. It's greatly appreciated!

 

[UCLAMAN]

BTW as much as I love reading these boards and hearing you guys make these all-important decisions, I have to take a much needed break from this forum, as it is now crunch time for me with musculoskeletal for next week. So if you have any further questions or concerns, feel free to PM me a week or two before 2nd look weekend and we'll definetly meet up during your stay here. I'll still check back in on these Northwestern threads from time to time though... Later guys! I hope you all decide to come here and are as happy I am with the program and the lifestyle...

damn...havent posted up in this piece in awhile...

wickman, looks like you took over the offical sdn-nu ambassador position i held last year.

everyone else...nu is in a horrible location. the hospital is so cheaply built. our professors are lame. they're only the foremost authorities in the diseases they teach. that can't be that big of a deal...i mean, one of our lecturers invented low molecular weight heparin. who in the hell uses lmwh anyways? the students are also asswipes...take ctwickman for example. 😀

j/k peoples...listen to the knowledge that ctwickman drops. its good stuff.

and if anyone wants a 2nd year/soon to be 3rd year perspective on the school get at me dogg.

word to your moms.

as for uofc versus nu...come to second look at nu and make a trip down to hyde park and figure out what kind of curriculum would fit your learning style the best. both schools have world leader profs, nice facilities, and will definitely not hinder your residency application. personally, i would not even factor in the residency reputation aspect into a decision as to where you would go. as someone else noted...both schools are respected and the main determining factor for residency will be your step1, grades, letters of rec etc. whether you went to uofc or nu will really make no diffference to the residency directors. in both cases they will give you respect.

oh ya...in conclusion go to chicago med! 😀

 

[VeggieGal]

explosivo--

do you feel that uchicago prepares its students well for the boards? i know that the school "doesn't teach for the boards," which is i think is good, but how prepared do people feel for the test? how much time do you get to study for it? does the administration offer a review/help, etc? i heard that uchicago's board scores were not as high as they should be given the calliber of the school. is this true? and do you know the average score? thanks for your help.

 

[blump]

explosivo--

do you feel that uchicago prepares its students well for the boards? i know that the school "doesn't teach for the boards," which is i think is good, but how prepared do people feel for the test? how much time do you get to study for it? does the administration offer a review/help, etc? i heard that uchicago's board scores were not as high as they should be given the calliber of the school. is this true? and do you know the average score? thanks for your help.

Look at Chicago's match list! The board scores could be ~100 and it wouldnt matter if they can match like that.

Seriously though, I am not a student at prizker but when I interviewed there they had some information in the lobby that said the scores were around 220 and the dir of admissions said that they had moved some classes around in the past few years to give the students more prep time and a prep course for the step 1. Hope that helps...

 

[VeggieGal]

i was just curious to see how much time/how prepared the students felt. i know that their match list is great, but board scores are a big part of matching well, and i have heard that the students at chicago don't feel as well prepared as people from other schools who have more multiple choice tests, different curriculum, etc. just wanted to see if there was any truth to that statement.

 

[Explosivo]

i was just curious to see how much time/how prepared the students felt. i know that their match list is great, but board scores are a big part of matching well, and i have heard that the students at chicago don't feel as well prepared as people from other schools who have more multiple choice tests, different curriculum, etc. just wanted to see if there was any truth to that statement.

So as far as boards go, I'm in the process of finding out since I'm taking them in June. We get anywhere from 5-7weeks to study for the boards give or take a week or two depending on how long you want to study. Most of us are planning to take 5 weeks, many are planning to do it in 4. This time is completely uninterrupted and begins at the end of April when our pathophysiology course finishes. From previous classes, the majority opinion has been that it is more than enough time.

As for how prepared we are, it depends. Physiology and pathophysiology are great here. Biochem and pharmacology are somewhat lacking and there are many gaps that need to be filled on our time in terms of boards material. So it varies on the subject. As for the types of exams we take, the MAJORITY HAVE BEEN MULTIPLE CHOICE EXAMS. There are TWO CLASSES (biochem and pathology) in which essay exams are used and both are run by the same prof. Anatomy is a combo of multiple choice, short answer, and fill in the blank. The course I'm taking now, Clinical Pathophysiology and Therapeutics, has boards style multiple choice questions, all 122 of which I answered today.

With regard to board scoring here in general, classes have typically been in the low to mid 220s. Not super but not awful either. Like blump mentioned above, we match extremely well even though we don't knock anyone's socks off with our scores. That says something. If our classes have had a history of matching poorly combined with our board scores, then i'd be concerned. As a current Pritzker student getting ready to take the boards, I should be as concerned about this now as anybody to be perfectly honest I'm not b/c a) how you do on the boards depends largely on you and b) we have a very good track record in terms of the match.

Finally, in terms of help from the school for boards, they have hired study counselors to help us make individualized study schedules for step 1 in addition to figuring out what the best way to study is for each student. We also have the opportunity to take NBME shelf exams on each subject for FREE at the end of 2nd year right before we begin studying for the boards in order to assess what areas to focus on when we study for step 1. There other resources available also but this is what comes to mind right now.

Hope this is helps

 

[tsj]

NW is in one of the most exciting urban districts in the world. There is not an analagous neighborhood anywhere in the U.S. It has all the amenities of Midtown Manhattan but feels more open due to the lake.

Hyde Park is nice urban neighborhood also and sort of unique. It is a lot quieter and more intellectual.

 

[GuitarMan]

I'm a current 3rd year student at Pritzker, and I can verify that the environment is not high stress. Most people are really laid-back, especially in the first two years. There are long hours of class, but as others have mentioned, attendance is optional. Many people in my class played intramural sports or pursued other outside activities.

If you want to do research, there are unlimited opportunities. I participated in the summer research program because it paid a nice stipend, and I had nothing better to do. Many of my classmates did as well. Some have been blessed with a publication from their summer project.

I have never lived in Hyde Park, so I can't comment much on the neighborhood. Like the poster from NW, I also think about med school as a job. If you like to feel like you are on a college campus you can definitely get that feeling at U of C. I personally didn't care about the rest of campus, and consequently nearly never saw it. The main med school building and the hospital are situated such that you can attend all of your classes and rotations without ever seeing the majority of the main campus.

I picked up a copy of the match list for the class of 2005 this morning. For those of you interested in returning to the East, we matched 12 people in Mass, 10 in NY, 6 in Penn, 2 in MD, and 2 in DC.

Regarding competitive specialties: Derm 3, EM 5, Anes 4, Ortho 5, Optho 2, ENT 2, Rads 6, Plastics 2, Uro 4. That's about 33% of the class.

Of those that went into a less competitive specialty like Internal Med there were: 2 @ Brigham, 2 @ Mass Gen, 1 @ Johns Hopkins, 3 @ Wash U, 1 @ Stanford, 2 @ UCLA, 1 @ Cornell, 5 @ U of C, and a few at places like Michigan, BU, Oregon etc. This is pretty representative of the rest of the list for other specialties as well.

I hope this information is helpful to those of you trying to make a decision.

 

[XoQo]

Look at Chicago's match list! The board scores could be ~100 and it wouldnt matter if they can match like that.

Seriously though, I am not a student at prizker but when I interviewed there they had some information in the lobby that said the scores were around 220 and the dir of admissions said that they had moved some classes around in the past few years to give the students more prep time and a prep course for the step 1. Hope that helps...

i believe NU's step I average last year was hovering around 230....maybe 231 or 229 (they told us this at the beginning of the year but it's kinda hazy right now).

but...like a few other posters have emphasized -- USMLE and residency placeemnt is dependent perhaps more on the students who attend there than the program's reputation. granted, rep's do matter -- but consider that there can be year to year variation in placement to top competitive residencies -- this is likely due to fluctuations in the student pool rather than in the quality of the school itself.

i understand that this is a gross overgeneralization -- but its the impression that i seem to be hit with from everybody around me (3rd yrs, 4th years, residents and even clinical faculty or residency program directors who speak to us).

 

[Without Wax]

yaldekab: I don't want to insinuate that Hyde Park is "a ghetto," because it is not, but there is no getting around the fact that it is surrounded by the ghetto on 3 sides (and Lake Michigan on the other). I stand by what I said: Hyde Park is IN the ghetto, because it is, but it is certainly a nice oasis in the ghetto.

conglats to all of you who got into these great schools. I do not know much about U Chicago or NU, but I just wanted to tell you an interesting story of the term "ghetto" (as a history major) since it is widely used here.

The word "ghetto" was first used in Italy, an area in Venice. It was used since the middle ages (1516) and it describes a walled of section of a city to which Jews were restricted.
Its use became really popular during WWII when Nazi ghettos were places where Jews were forced to live and also holding areas who would be transported to concentration camps.

The term came to the US after WWII.

Just a random thought of the day.