U Penn w/ Dean’s vs. UoP w/ HPSP

[agent2362]

I've resisted making this thread for a long time, since I hate to be just another person who cannot make up his mind on dental school; nevertheless here it is as I see it. Please correct me if I'm wrong or if you see it a different way or perhaps if you see something I am missing here. If I could have my dream, it is to specialize in OMFS in the end.

Common Benefits:
·Both upper tier schools as far as student selection, with a great dental curriculum.
·Both cost approximately the same initiallyà approx. $350,000 total

Benefits of UoP w/ HPSP:
·3 year curriculum/ get out a year early
·HPSP scholarship combined with UoP = 3 years dental school + 3 year military repayment= approximately a $695,000 predicted benefit the first three years out of school (this 695K figure comes from adding $350k school cost + $125K interest (if I were to pay it off in ten years) + 210K (military salary)😎
·Humanistic approach: I just LOVE its atmosphere with EVERYONE top to bottom being really kind and helpful. I would never have guessed that it was a stressful, accelerated program unless I knew it before hand. Lots of teamwork and back slapping going around here.
·Amazing facilities. No complaints as far as the simulation lab and classrooms and patient care center.
·Most students at UoP are not looking to specialize, thus less competiton. They are there to save a year and go straight into dentistry as a GP. Thus competition to specialize might be slightly reduced to merely working your @$$ off if you want to specialize.
·Significantly good clinical experience since UoP really has no specialties onsite, thus you get do all the hard endo cases that might get referred to the specialty program.
·San Francisco is a terrific place

Drawbacks of UoP w/ HPSP
·A very hectic, stressful three years. Difficult to have a normal life if you want to specialize. People work their butt off here to survive so I'm not quite sure how hard you have to work to be sure of ranking in the top 10%.😱

·Specializing in the military can be a bit tricky. You are not assured of it even if you get into a civilian program. They must have a predicted spot open/ need within the specific specialty.
·No time off since accelerated; exam schedule is intense =7-10 exams in only 3-4 days
·Perhaps not quite as well known as UPenn to OMFS programs at medical schools and hospitals around the nation.
·Class rank (can also be a benefit against unranked programs for OMFS application, since NBDE I is going P/F)
·Lack of strong research component or time available to do research
·High price of living in SF

Benefits of UPenn:
·Ivy League status and reputation.
·Dean's scholarship= half tuition ( approx. $115K)😀
·Very notable science curriculum (might be valuable if science based entrance exams are introduced into specialty applications.)
·Student tailored curriculum: 1 test/week= perhaps less stressful since no real exam week. Additionally, the classes are all taped and transcribed into text, possible video recording coming.
·Great opportunity to specialize and do research
·Fantastic specialty programs onsite might give opportunity to see what you would do in different specialties. Programs likely to prefer their own students from the dental school. I would love to get into their OMFS program for sure.
·Opportunity to do a dual degree program (i.e. I would likely go for an MPH and DMD in 4 years)
·I would not have to serve in the military to pay off my debt.
·Unranked except for the first ten spots
·Great academic environment with a unified campus and a rich historical aspect to Philedelphia.

Drawbacks of UPenn
·Cost. I will graduate with approx. $240K (assuming no more aid) in debt. This would be very difficult to pay off in two years after I graduate (when compared to my time for being school debt free if I were to go to Pacific).
·Facilities/ Dungeon. I was not terribly impressed with the facilities at U Penn, especially the basement classrooms and the main clinic floor (way too cramped-- ‘grand central station.') I know aesthetics aren't everything.
·Many people specializing, thus making it much more potentially competitive. Also did not seem like as quite a back team spirit as UoP.
·Four years long
·Unranked (except for first ten) might lead to a disadvantage against other schools that have class rank, especially with P/F boards.
·Specialties onsite might steal some work that the dental students would otherwise do.

Briefly, I want to add that I have a slight learning disability (dyslexia and ADD inattentive subtype) that makes me a little bit of slower learner than many students if classes are text book intensive. However, I have the advantage of having taken many of the future dental courses (anatomy, physio, biochem, microbio, ect); additionally, many dental school classes (so I have been told) are not conceptually difficult, but more so in the sheer amount of info needed to know. So overall, UoP seems like the better choice financially, while U Penn seems like the better program for my learning deficit. As far as specializing especially with boards going P/F, it is debatable whether if one school gives a benefit; however being in the military might impair my chances of being specializing right out of dental school. If I end doing OMFS, seriously who cares about the money for school, since they are swimming in it....

I would appreciate any thoughts, comments, and/ or corrections to my concerns. Thanks!🙂

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[browncrack]

Yes. Definitely. You won't regret it.

 

[DrReo]

·A very hectic, stressful three years. Difficult to have a normal life if you want to specialize. People work their butt off here to survive so I'm not quite sure how hard you have to work to be sure of ranking in the top 10%.😱

Not to burst your bubble, but I do not know a school that one can coast to a top 10% rank.

Ricky Bobby and I like to go fast. If you're set on the military, I'd go with UoP. Don't do the military for financial reasons, people will debate this statement. I'd go to the cheaper school if you decide against the military and if Penn costs 100k's vs UoP 300+

 

[Flipper405]

A few points:
"Difficult to have a normal life if you want to specialize." I think that's going to be the case regardless of where you go.

"People work their butt off here to survive so I'm not quite sure how hard you have to work to be sure of ranking in the top 10%."
Again, definitely don't underestimate your classmates here - you will have to work very hard to get the stats you need if you really want to do OMFS.

Is HPSP not an option for you with Penn?

Good luck - I'm sure you'll do fine either way.

PS - yay for 600 posts.

 

[json896]

OMFS is a long way off, first off you dont even know if you like doing surgery. doing it Is alot different than watching and talking about it. and even for surgeon 240k is alot of debt not to mention it will be 4 to 6 years before you even start to pay it off.

Penn is a great school, but is not a guarentee to specialize. dont get your facts skewed. most people go into GPR NOT specialties. OMFS has very few students, less than 3 average over last few years compared to the 100+ class size. so actual specializing rate is not that high once you remove GPR students.

Also if you are going to get into a specialty program you could do it at any institution. going to penn aint gunna guarentee it.

Lastly, money should be a big factor. but just like most people deciding between schools you think that one school will give you better chances for this or be better for that. what it should come down to is what you want out of your dental education. In the course of a lifetime as a dentist or surgeon 100k isn't that much money. what really matters is what experience you want as a student.

no matter where you go first two years gunna be hard. very hard. but when you graduate it doesn't matter where you went, all that matters is that you got an education and a license.

i would contact students at each school and see if the dental experience they have is the experience you want to have during your 3 or 4 years. as your experience as a student is what will have the longest impression not the curriculum or the name of your school or you debt.

 

[armorshell]

Is HPSP not an option for you with Penn?

If you're going to do HPSP, Pacific is theplace to do it since you end up with 1 year less payback.

OP, if I can specialize from Pacific, you can too. None of the people who got into OMFS this year were locked away in a dungeon for all three years, and for some it was quite the opposite.

 

[agent2362]

If you're going to do HPSP, Pacific is theplace to do it since you end up with 1 year less payback.

OP, if I can specialize from Pacific, you can too. None of the people who got into OMFS this year were locked away in a dungeon for all three years, and for some it was quite the opposite.

Yeah I probably should have mentioned that it is highly likely that I would not take a HPSP scholarship at Penn even if offered one, since I already have the scholarship and I can't have both unfortunately. It would be a waste of a great scholarship. HPSP as armorshell mentioned is definitely favored in my benefit by going to UoP. It is debatable who benefits more financially (you or the military) if you do a 4 year HPSP.

I'm not really sure how many people at UoP do HPSP, but it's a darn good deal in your financial favor if you do.😀

I honestly cannot understand how anyone could bear to take out 350K in loans, even for U Penn. You must really want the Ivy status if you do. Basically, if I had not received Dean's scholarship at Penn, I would not be considering it at all, unless it was the only school I was accepted to.

 

[eternalxdemon]

Yeah I probably should have mentioned that it is highly likely that I would not take a HPSP scholarship at Penn even if offered one, since I already have the scholarship and I can't have both unfortunately. It would be a waste of a great scholarship. HPSP as armorshell mentioned is definitely favored in my benefit by going to UoP. It is debatable who benefits more financially (you or the military) if you do a 4 year HPSP.

I'm not really sure how many people at UoP do HPSP, but it's a darn good deal in your financial favor if you do.😀

I honestly cannot understand how anyone could bear to take out 350K in loans, even for U Penn. You must really want the Ivy status if you do. Basically, if I had not received Dean's scholarship at Penn, I would not be considering it at all, unless it was the only school I was accepted to.

i think there's at least 4 1st years doing the hpsp loan this year... the guy next to me loves it. haha. he calls it "Free money." he' son a budget but hey... the army pays for all the electrical stuff so basically he was reimbursed for his loupes & light. he's quite enjoying himself. 🙂

 

[agent2362]

OMFS is a long way off, first off you dont even know if you like doing surgery. doing it Is alot different than watching and talking about it. and even for surgeon 240k is alot of debt not to mention it will be 4 to 6 years before you even start to pay it off.

Penn is a great school, but is not a guarentee to specialize. dont get your facts skewed. most people go into GPR NOT specialties. OMFS has very few students, less than 3 average over last few years compared to the 100+ class size. so actual specializing rate is not that high once you remove GPR students.

Also if you are going to get into a specialty program you could do it at any institution. going to penn aint gunna guarentee it.

Lastly, money should be a big factor. but just like most people deciding between schools you think that one school will give you better chances for this or be better for that. what it should come down to is what you want out of your dental education. In the course of a lifetime as a dentist or surgeon 100k isn't that much money. what really matters is what experience you want as a student.

no matter where you go first two years gunna be hard. very hard. but when you graduate it doesn't matter where you went, all that matters is that you got an education and a license.

i would contact students at each school and see if the dental experience they have is the experience you want to have during your 3 or 4 years. as your experience as a student is what will have the longest impression not the curriculum or the name of your school or you debt.

Actually the numbers for students specializing in OMFS from U Penn has averaged 6/yr. Last year 7 matched OMFS, 12 into ortho (which happens every year too), 2 into endo, 8 pedo, 2 prostho....so that's 31 out of a class of 120 or about 25% specialization rate....thats not bad. As for GPR and AEGD about 49 went into those. The 17-20 people that U Penn sends into ortho and OMFS every year is very impressive

 

[Maka]

First thing is HPSP scholarships are lot harder to get now than they were before. I don't know if you already have an offer or not, but they are NOT easy to get. While undergrad grades/DAT scores still matter, they are more looking for the kind of people that are going to be "officers that happen to be dentists" instead of "dentists that happen to be officers." I think the Navy is out of scholarships totally until after the class of 2015, and this year the AF only had 4 4-year scholarships, and 38 3 year scholarships. The army ones are the more available, however.

Second, I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I think the way UOP works it that you end up paying for 4 years, so you would have to get a 4 year HPSP or financial aid 1 year and get a 3 year HPSP - could be wrong on this though.

Finally, DO NOT join the military unless you want to. Even if it's a great financial decision, it should be because you WANT to serve the country in that way. The odds are if you're doing it for the money, you won't like your experience there.

 

[json896]

Actually the numbers for students specializing in OMFS from U Penn has averaged 6/yr. Last year 7 matched OMFS WRONG!!, 12 into ortho (which happens every year too AGAIN WRONG!!), 2 into endo, 8 pedo, 2 prostho....so that's 31 out of a class of 120 or about 25% specialization rate BUT NOT HIGH!!!....thats not bad. As for GPR and AEGD about 49 went into those. The 17-20 people that U Penn sends into ortho and OMFS every year WRONG!!!! is very impressive

I admit i just winged stats i was unsure of. but to try and correct someone when your stats are consistently incorrect just looks bad on you.

over last 5 years has had an average class size of 129.4 and average specialization rate of 33.4 but you some how got your rate correct. but well forgive you dental math. but still for a school that charges as much as penn does and being ivy league huge disappointment for specialization

 

[json896]

First thing is HPSP scholarships are lot harder to get now than they were before. I don't know if you already have an offer or not, but they are NOT easy to get. While undergrad grades/DAT scores still matter, they are more looking for the kind of people that are going to be "officers that happen to be dentists" instead of "dentists that happen to be officers." I think the Navy is out of scholarships totally until after the class of 2015, and this year the AF only had 4 4-year scholarships, and 38 3 year scholarships. The army ones are the more available, however.

Second, I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I think the way UOP works it that you end up paying for 4 years, so you would have to get a 4 year HPSP or financial aid 1 year and get a 3 year HPSP - could be wrong on this though.

Finally, DO NOT join the military unless you want to. Even if it's a great financial decision, it should be because you WANT to serve the country in that way. The odds are if you're doing it for the money, you won't like your experience there.

not apost on whether to take scholarship was post on which school

 

[Maka]

not apost on whether to take scholarship was post on which school

Additional info on the scholarship could help OP, esp if UOP is actually a 4 year deal instead of a 3, which I seem to remember my recruiter telling me.

 

[eternalxdemon]

from what i understand... when you take the hpsp scholarship at UoP u have the option of choosing 3 years or 4 years. if you do the 4 years you would have to serve 4 in the army and u get a signing bonus??? but you can choose to do the three year loan n just serve only 3 years... and i think if you budget the loan money correctly you can live off of the 3 year loans despite having 4 loan periods... at least i think that's what my classmates are doing...

 

[wwdaffodils]

dont get your facts skewed. OMFS has very few students, less than 3 average over last few years

I admit i just winged stats i was unsure of.

This is coming directly off the sheet of paper that lists Penn post-graduate plans. The following is for the class of 2009.

Private practice: 36
GPR: 47
AEGD: 4
Orthodontics: 12
OMFS: 6
Pedodontics: 8
Endodontics: 2
Prosthodontics: 2
(other listed plans include armed services, public health, teaching, etc.)

The above should serve as a lesson to all on SDN: the forum is undoubtedly helpful, but is also riddled with people who say whatever is convenient at the time and don't bother checking facts. Take everything said with a giant grain of salt (and recheck everything against reliable sources).

 

[agent2362]

I admit i just winged stats i was unsure of. but to try and correct someone when your stats are consistently incorrect just looks bad on you.

over last 5 years has had an average class size of 129.4 and average specialization rate of 33.4 but you some how got your rate correct. but well forgive you dental math. but still for a school that charges as much as penn does and being ivy league huge disappointment for specialization

Gosh, my stats are CORRECT as far as the specialization numbers based on the information released to all interviewees from U Penn itself of specialization rates over the last 5 years. Every year a higher than normal average across schools have gone into ortho and OMFS. Last year 6 went civilian OMFS and 1 went military OMFS = 7....

What wrong with a 25% actual specialization rates?? Some schools can't even get that high by adding in all their AEGD and GPR numbers in there. Admittedly Penn is very expensive and would not necessarily be worth the money to me without Dean's scholarship and higher specialization rates in ortho and OMFS. Is Penn really that disappointing?? Harvard can't even teach most GP skills adequately enough to most of its students.

 

[Maka]

from what i understand... when you take the hpsp scholarship at UoP u have the option of choosing 3 years or 4 years. if you do the 4 years you would have to serve 4 in the army and u get a signing bonus??? but you can choose to do the three year loan n just serve only 3 years... and i think if you budget the loan money correctly you can live off of the 3 year loans despite having 4 loan periods... at least i think that's what my classmates are doing...

Yeh if you do 4 years with the Army/Navy they give you a $20000 bonus, but not with the AF. There are NO bonuses with any 3 year deals. I'm not sure how you're cycle works, but if there are 4 billing cycles, that would mean that you would need to do 1 entire billing cycle on financial aid, however you might be able to budget it so you could tap into your cost of living expenses. I took out 1 year of loans @ 88k, then will be doing the next 3 with the AF (my program is 4 years).

 

[joefosho315]

I admit i just winged stats i was unsure of. but to try and correct someone when your stats are consistently incorrect just looks bad on you.

over last 5 years has had an average class size of 129.4 and average specialization rate of 33.4 but you some how got your rate correct. but well forgive you dental math. but still for a school that charges as much as penn does and being ivy league huge disappointment for specialization

Dude, the man pointed out your mistakes. We didn't just merely put out 3 into OMFS last year. I understand you're trying to help, but when doing so, please check your facts before acting like such an authority. And to the OP, just to clarify, for the dual degree MPH option, it'll unfortunately take 5 years to complete. The other dual degree programs though, in education and bioethics, are completed in 4 years.

Good luck to the OP!

 

[armorshell]

You guys seem really worried about the specialization rate. The question I'd ask is how much effort the school put into your specialty application, vs. how much effort YOU put into it.

There are far better reasons to choose a school than what is essentially a trivial statistic.

 

[pmoney]

If you're going to do HPSP, Pacific is theplace to do it since you end up with 1 year less payback.

OP, if I can specialize from Pacific, you can too. None of the people who got into OMFS this year were locked away in a dungeon for all three years, and for some it was quite the opposite.

Not correct, 4 year payback at Pacific. It is the equivalent of a 4 year program after all. Additionally, the 1 yr AEGD/GPR that many HPSP recipients do is not included in payback, so you are looking at 5 years to get out if thats the case. Additionally, your contract is for 8 years (the last bit - say 4 years if you don't do AEGD are IRR, which basically means you're free and clear unless WWIII breaks out - note IRR was heavily utilized for MPs, Engineers, etc during the current conflict).

Yeah you can certainly get out at 4 or 5 though, no problem something like 70-80% were getting out at their first chance in the last few years when the dental boom was still on...

Don't jump into HPSP without making an educated decision, its not all fun and games, you won't get to go exactly where you want, you may be deployed, you won't neccessarily get to do all the 'procedures' you want, etc.

 

[armorshell]

Not correct, 4 year payback at Pacific. It is the equivalent of a 4 year program after all. Additionally, the 1 yr AEGD/GPR that many HPSP recipients do is not included in payback, so you are looking at 5 years to get out if thats the case. Additionally, your contract is for 8 years (the last bit - say 4 years if you don't do AEGD are IRR, which basically means you're free and clear unless WWIII breaks

Wow, I'll alert the dozen or so people in my class and the class ahead that are paying back 3 years (and 3 years reserve) that all their contracts are actually invalid. Thanks for the info!

 

[xhamburgersamx]

Wow, I'll alert the dozen or so people in my class and the class ahead that are paying back 3 years (and 3 years reserve) that all their contracts are actually invalid. Thanks for the info!

I'm pretty sure pacific is 3 years Active and 5 years IRR

 

[eternalxdemon]

Not correct, 4 year payback at Pacific. It is the equivalent of a 4 year program after all. Additionally, the 1 yr AEGD/GPR that many HPSP recipients do is not included in payback, so you are looking at 5 years to get out if thats the case. Additionally, your contract is for 8 years (the last bit - say 4 years if you don't do AEGD are IRR, which basically means you're free and clear unless WWIII breaks out - note IRR was heavily utilized for MPs, Engineers, etc during the current conflict).

Yeah you can certainly get out at 4 or 5 though, no problem something like 70-80% were getting out at their first chance in the last few years when the dental boom was still on...

Don't jump into HPSP without making an educated decision, its not all fun and games, you won't get to go exactly where you want, you may be deployed, you won't neccessarily get to do all the 'procedures' you want, etc.

Says who? i'm pretty sure they're given a choice of taking out 3 or 4 years... tho i do agree with you're very last statement. do your research. find students who are taking out the hpsp loans and ask them for info cuz they Would know best wat the options are and what their contracts entail.

 

[json896]

Dude, the man pointed out your mistakes. We didn't just merely put out 3 into OMFS last year. I understand you're trying to help, but when doing so, please check your facts before acting like such an authority. And to the OP, just to clarify, for the dual degree MPH option, it'll unfortunately take 5 years to complete. The other dual degree programs though, in education and bioethics, are completed in 4 years.

Good luck to the OP!

wasn't trying to be an authority on the subject, and already stated i winged my facts. but thank you for reclarifying this mistake. and put 6 into OMFS again out of aclass size of 130 not that impressive

 

[agent2362]

And so today is the day to make the decision... honestly not any easier than before. Arguably easier to make a decision with less information sometimes...

Going to be a long day...

 

[eternalxdemon]

And so today is the day to make the decision... honestly not any easier than before. Arguably easier to make a decision with less information sometimes...

Going to be a long day...

so what did you decide on?

 

[agent2362]

so what did you decide on?

I actually have a few days more to really decide. What I did completely decide to do was HPSP and I am being sworn in as an officer this afternoon.

The school decision is harder than ever. .The biggest factors honestly in my mind are 1. Expense 2. Positive school survival/experience 3. How soon I can be free to of commitment to move and do whatever I want for my current family and possibly my future family or basically the freedom of option to do whatever I want to do (like specialize). U Penn seems to favors 2 and UoP favors 3 pretty heavily. The military eliminates # 1 ...

The UoP schedule is very intimidating and that's the main thing that keeps me from choosing them right away. I just dont know know if UoP dentists are quite as well trained as Penn dentists.
.

Give me a few more days.
.

 

[John Durian]

Just talked to a Navy recruiter yesterday (a very competent one). He said that even though UOP is a 3 year school, it has 4 billing cycles. Because of this, your payback will be 4 years active + 4 years reserve.

This may have been different, say, 3-4 years ago.

 

[armorshell]

I actually have a few days more to really decide. What I did completely decide to do was HPSP and I am being sworn in as an officer this afternoon.

The school decision is harder than ever. .The biggest factors honestly in my mind are 1. Expense 2. Positive school survival/experience 3. How soon I can be free to of commitment to move and do whatever I want for my current family and possibly my future family or basically the freedom of option to do whatever I want to do (like specialize). U Penn seems to favors 2 and UoP favors 3 pretty heavily. The military eliminates # 1 ...

The UoP schedule is very intimidating and that's the main thing that keeps me from choosing them right away. I just dont know know if UoP dentists are quite as well trained as Penn dentists.
.

Give me a few more days.
.

You think UPenn favors "Positive school survival experience?" over UoP? I dare you to find any UoP graduate who has anything seriously negative to say about their school experience or education.

As far as UoP dentists being well trained, I guess that depends on your definition. If you want to be doing your own (aka, not referring to residents) molar endo, full mouth reconstructions, invisalign and perio surgery, you know where to go.

If you're interested in what Penn sees as a definition of excellent training, take a look at where they recruit their endo residents from. They've taken 7 people from Pacific in the last 5 years.

Feel free to PM me if you have more q's

 

[eternalxdemon]

Just talked to a Navy recruiter yesterday (a very competent one). He said that even though UOP is a 3 year school, it has 4 billing cycles. Because of this, your payback will be 4 years active + 4 years reserve.

This may have been different, say, 3-4 years ago.

i kno for a fact u have the option of just taking out only 3 years thus only 3 years of active duty. plussssssssss u get a whoel bunch of compensation if u word this the rite way. 😉

 

[agent2362]

Just talked to a Navy recruiter yesterday (a very competent one). He said that even though UOP is a 3 year school, it has 4 billing cycles. Because of this, your payback will be 4 years active + 4 years reserve.

This may have been different, say, 3-4 years ago.

So basically here's the deal. I received the HPSP scholarship and asked them about taking it at UoP, since it really doesn't make sense financially at all take it at any other school when UoP is also an option. You save two years by going to Uop versus any other 4 year dental school. I was initially rejected by the army on my choice and subsequently had to submit a request for an exception to the 4 year HPSP scholarship. The problem with going to UoP with the military is the fact that I graduate in 2013 instead of 2014 like everyone else who is getting the scholarship.

I recently was approved for a three years scholarship and will be signing a three year HPSP contract with the army. I will only serve 3 years in repayment if I choose to do so. I'm not sure what the navy does, but that's what Im doing.

From now on UoP dental students get admitted on a case by case basis to HPSP as an exception to the normal policy of doing things

 

[pine88]

So basically here's the deal. I received the HPSP scholarship and asked them about taking it at UoP, since it really doesn't make sense financially at all take it at any other school when UoP is also an option. You save two years by going to Uop versus any other 4 year dental school. I was initially rejected by the army on my choice and subsequently had to submit a request for an exception to the 4 year HPSP scholarship. The problem with going to UoP with the military is the fact that I graduate in 2013 instead of 2014 like everyone else who is getting the scholarship.

I recently was approved for a three years scholarship and will be signing a three year HPSP contract with the army. I will only serve 3 years in repayment if I choose to do so. I'm not sure what the navy does, but that's what Im doing.

From now on UoP dental students get admitted on a case by case basis to HPSP as an exception to the normal policy of doing things

If you talk to a dental recruiter that knows what they are talking about, UoP payback has always been 3 years. That's what they told me before I started (although I opted not to do it), and that's what all my classmates who have it are doing