Angry Birds

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How hard is it for a U.S.-trained EM doctor to work in the UK? Near impossible without re-training oneself? Anyone know?
 

NinerNiner999

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Actually, politics aside, I think it would pretty bad ass to live in London (or at least be able to live and work there half of the year). I love that town.
 
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Daiphon

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Not a comment on the OP (well, not primarily), but it always amazes me of physicians who complain about the rise of "socialized medicine" in the US, and then start wondering if they can get a job in Canada or Australia, or the UK...
I think you need to look at the whole picture: socialized medicine without tort reform & educational cost reform (which most of the other countries have) is bad.

Many people opine regarding relocation to other countries as the clinical practice environment is more robust & sustainable.

Just my $0.02
-d
 
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Angry Birds

Angry Birds

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Not a comment on the OP (well, not primarily), but it always amazes me of physicians who complain about the rise of "socialized medicine" in the US, and then start wondering if they can get a job in Canada or Australia, or the UK...
I usually don't like sharing my "political" views on this board--and will probably face the wrath of people I really like on this forum--but I actually believe in socialized medicine. Of course, I also believe in free education, so in my ideal world, doctors wouldn't be saddled with the debts we currently have.

In general, I don't complain about medicine or the physician life/salary, as many of my colleagues do. I'm actually very grateful for being among the top 1% of the world, and I believe I have a duty to support those less fortunate than me.

But, my reason for asking about the UK has nothing to do with that. Rather, I will need to be in the UK for a relatively short period of time and was wondering if I could pick up some shifts while there.

Begin flame war in 3, 2, 1 ....
 
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GeneralVeers

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MOrally I'm opposed to socialized medicine. For work, I would relocate to wherever has the best salary to cost of living ratio regardless of how socialist they are.

I would pass on Britain given the low salaries and incredibly high taxes and cost of living. The U.S. is still tops for EM physicians, possibly with Australia #2 and Canada #3.
 

Fox800

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I'm a US student currently rotating in the UK on an elective. The British doctors I've met are not optimistic about the future of the NHS. Certain services and specialties are starting to be privatized because the NHS is so in the red. One example they gave me was psychiatric services in the southwest part of the UK being contracted out to Virgin. UK medical students that are about to graduate will get the shaft because the UK government just slashed their pay by about 30% and changed the definitions of "overtime" to after 10PM and Sundays.

Not sure what that means for a US-trained doc but it seems that there's a lot of turmoil on the horizon. There may be better opportunities to do international locums here, but who knows.

Taxes are high, EM consultant salaries are much lower, and schedules are comparable or worse.
 
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Vandalia

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I think you need to look at the whole picture: socialized medicine without tort reform & educational cost reform (which most of the other countries have) is bad.

Many people opine regarding relocation to other countries as the clinical practice environment is more robust & sustainable.

Just my $0.02
-d
Aggrieved patients want their "pound of flesh" one way or the other.

There is little civil liability in the UK, but there is frequent criminal prosecution of physicians in cases that in the US would just be a malpractice suit. Examples of EM related cases:

Physician sentenced to 2 1/2 years in prison for failing to rapidly diagnose DKA in a patient presenting with complaints of depression.

Physician sentenced to 2 1/2 years for failing to rapidly diagnose "bowel rupture" in patient s/p knee replacement.

http://www.medicalprotection.org/uk/casebook-and-resources/casebook-may-2014/medicine-and-manslaughter
 

emergentmd

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I'm a US student currently rotating in the UK on an elective. The British doctors I've met are not optimistic about the future of the NHS. Certain services and specialties are starting to be privatized because the NHS is so in the red. One example they gave me was psychiatric services in the southwest part of the UK being contracted out to Virgin. UK medical students that are about to graduate will get the shaft because the UK government just slashed their pay by about 30% and changed the definitions of "overtime" to after 10PM and Sundays.

Not sure what that means for a US-trained doc but it seems that there's a lot of turmoil on the horizon. There may be better opportunities to do international locums here, but who knows.

Taxes are high, EM consultant salaries are much lower, and schedules are comparable or worse.
Unless you have a burning need to go to another country, stick in the US. I have no clue what your position in life was. If I just want to live abroad and experience life outside the US, I would

1. Get a locums Gig in the south. Work 15 days a month for 6 months and bank 3-400K
2. Spend the other 6 months traveling the world. You can stay in Europe as long as you want until you get tired. Then go to Asia, then go to S America, then join the Kiwis.


If I were not married, and wanted to travel the world, I would do this. I know of people who work 3 months (15 shifts), take 3 months off and stay in a foreign country.
 

GeneralVeers

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Seriously?
Yes. I used my American Airlines points to book free First Class tickets on Cathay Pacific. Then my Marriott points are being used at the Ritz Carlton Hong Kong. My 5 day luxury trip is costing me around $2000 total. The points were all paid for by the locums job as part of travel. It seriously is an awesome way to do things. In fact I have so many points from my locums travel that I have to book a vacation every 2-3 months just to use them.
 

gro2001

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Yes. I used my American Airlines points to book free First Class tickets on Cathay Pacific. Then my Marriott points are being used at the Ritz Carlton Hong Kong. My 5 day luxury trip is costing me around $2000 total. The points were all paid for by the locums job as part of travel. It seriously is an awesome way to do things. In fact I have so many points from my locums travel that I have to book a vacation every 2-3 months just to use them.
I didn't know whether to 'like' your post or 'report' it for making me super jealous.
 

Old_Mil

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Angry Birds,

The situation in the UK is bad.. If you're interested in an overseas move look to Canada or Austrlia...New Zealand for quality of life (at the cost of a big pay cut).
 
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The White Coat Investor

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How did you practice in the UK? What steps did you have to take to be able to practice there? Or was this military-related somehow?
Yea, military. I was sent to Lakenheath to backfill for someone who had been deployed forward. Best 6 weeks in the military. Didn't interact much with the actual UK medical system though, just a few transfers of retirees with real medical problems, which we didn't take care of at the base. :)
 

ManchesterDoc

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I've known a few US EM docs who made the shift to the UK. There are some hurdles but it is possible. PM me and I can get you some further details.
 

Fox800

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I'm in Australia now, and there are tons and I mean tons of UK doctors fleeing the NHS for Australia (and I've heard New Zealand too). I suppose it could be sample bias but the UK (and Ireland) doctors I've met (from various specialties including EM) have all -- every single one -- told me how much more their pay is in Australia (vs the UK) and how much less they work in Australia (vs the UK).

Positives of being an EM physician in Australia:
  • An EM "attending" (i.e. consultant or staff specialist) in Australia is paid around $350k-$450k per year (though a lot of this is fringe benefits to reduce your tax load).
  • You work 4 shifts per week x 10 hrs per shift, and 1 of these 4 days is non-clinical (i.e. teaching med students, residents, registrars, doing "research").
  • You never or very rarely have to work overnights (i.e. past midnight). Actually, you usually work 8-6pm type hrs during the week. Usually on week days too i.e. Mon-Thurs or Tues to Fri or other weekdays. You don't often work weekends. At worst you'd have to work till midnight but very rarely past midnight.
  • However, you get overtime ("penalty") pay if you work overnights or weekends or other odd hours outside your regular hours.
  • A lot less medico-legal liability.
  • Patients are generally pretty appreciative. It's sometimes considered a bit weird if they don't say "thank you" (or similar).
  • The workload as an attending or consultant isn't as grueling as it sounds like in the US, because you are overseeing a lot of registrars rather than directly doing the work yourself, it's more of a supervisory role. Of course, if you want, you can get as involved as much as you want to, but it's not expected.
  • You get approximately $25-$30k per year for CME (aka "CPD" continuing professional development).
  • 2 weeks paid CME.
  • 6 weeks paid vacation per year.
  • You get sick leave too.
  • You can usually supplement your salary by locuming if you want. Locums pay anywhere from $2000-$3000 per day, from what I've seen, plus airplane tickets, car, hotel, sometimes meals are paid for too.
The main downsides of Australia are:
  • The high cost of living (including taxes -- roughly 45%!).
  • The Aussie dollar has historically been a lot weaker than the US dollar.
All that said I sometimes still miss the US and think about moving back home... :unsure:
How long have you been working in Australia? That's something that I'm interested in doing after residency.
 

gro2001

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I'm in Australia now, and there are tons and I mean tons of UK doctors fleeing the NHS for Australia (and I've heard New Zealand too). I suppose it could be sample bias but the UK (and Ireland) doctors I've met (from various specialties including EM) have all -- every single one -- told me how much more their pay is in Australia (vs the UK) and how much less they work in Australia (vs the UK).

Positives of being an EM physician in Australia:
  • An EM "attending" (i.e. consultant or staff specialist) in Australia is paid around $350k-$450k per year (though a lot of this is fringe benefits to reduce your tax load).
  • You work 4 shifts per week x 10 hrs per shift, and 1 of these 4 days is non-clinical (i.e. teaching med students, residents, registrars, doing "research").
  • You never or very rarely have to work overnights (i.e. past midnight). Actually, you usually work 8-6pm type hrs during the week. Usually on week days too i.e. Mon-Thurs or Tues to Fri or other weekdays. You don't often work weekends. At worst you'd have to work till midnight but very rarely past midnight.
  • However, you get overtime ("penalty") pay if you work overnights or weekends or other odd hours outside your regular hours.
  • A lot less medico-legal liability.
  • Patients are generally pretty appreciative. It's sometimes considered a bit weird if they don't say "thank you" (or similar).
  • The workload as an attending or consultant isn't as grueling as it sounds like in the US, because you are overseeing a lot of registrars rather than directly doing the work yourself, it's more of a supervisory role. Of course, if you want, you can get as involved as much as you want to, but it's not expected.
  • You get approximately $25-$30k per year for CME (aka "CPD" continuing professional development).
  • 2 weeks paid CME.
  • 6 weeks paid vacation per year.
  • You get sick leave too.
  • You can usually supplement your salary by locuming if you want. Locums pay anywhere from $2000-$3000 per day, from what I've seen, plus airplane tickets, car, hotel, sometimes meals are paid for too.
The main downsides of Australia are:
  • The high cost of living (including taxes -- roughly 45%!).
  • The Aussie dollar has historically been a lot weaker than the US dollar.
All that said I sometimes still miss the US and think about moving back home... :unsure:

How hard/long was the process to get your credentials accepted there, get licensed, etc?