UCLA (Geffen Scholarship) vs. Stanford

[Monica_David2024]

Never posted before but longtime lurker and would love some insight. Sorry for the long intro, but I’m trying to give as much context as possible for my decision.

In the future, I have three specialty choices in mind: ophthalmology, dermatology and ortho. As all three of these are competitive, I’m looking to put myself in the best position to succeed. I’m also potentially interested in academic medicine and don’t want to close any doors on that front either.

I’ve lived in California my whole life but have more family in Southern California than Northern California. I don’t have a preference for where I match, and the east coast actually sounds exciting to me post-medical school as I’ve never lived outside of California before.

With regards to cost, obviously that’s the biggest difference here. I will say, though, that I didn’t have to pay for my undergraduate education (scholarship) and have worked in the private sector for several years so I have saved enough money to pay for medical school myself for the most part, which is great because I have saved money but not great because I won’t qualify for need-based aid and therefore will have to use a lot of that money if I go to Stanford. Ultimately, I’ve calculated that using the money I have earned I won’t have to take out more than 25k in loans total for housing for the 4 years of medical school (I’ll be able to pay full tuition and part of housing).

I think that in the competitive specialties I hope to pursue, I am okay with paying back those loans over time if it means giving me an advantage in terms of getting the best residency possible. I’ll post pros/cons below, but for me it comes down to this: Is the Stanford education worth paying full tuition/ taking out 25k in loans for housing over the UCLA education keeping in mind my future career goals and the fact that I have saved money precisely to keep all options open.

Finally, I loved interview day at both schools and came away from both thinking that if I got in I would 100 percent want to attend. I recognize this is a good problem to have and never thought I would be in this situation. I’m extremely grateful and would love any tips when making a decision.

Stanford:
Pros:

• Prestige (for academic medicine) especially with step 1 going p/f. The name seems to carry a lot of weight and stays with you forever
• Smaller class size (90 as opposed to 175? I think) means easier to find research mentors, get good LOR; all students seemed to know each other on interview day
• No AOA, don’t want to be in too competitive of an environment like undergrad
• Curriculum is not changing
• Match list is WILD (in a good way). Didn’t see many better.
• Been my dream school since I was young. Flat out denied here for undergrad

Cons:

• $$$, have to spend a lot to go/live here (but Westwood isn’t cheap either) and move from Southern California
• Family closer to UCLA
• Many students take longer to complete medical school. As I’m non-trad, want to get done in 4 years and get to residency.

UCLA:

Pros:

• FREE, everything covered with Geffen scholarship. Don’t have to spend the $$$ I’ve made or take out any loans for housing (albeit small loans)
• I love Los Angeles and the weather can’t be beat anywhere
• Closer to family
• Loved Reagan hospital (didn’t get to visit Stanford’s new hospital as it wasn’t open during interview)

Cons:

• Somewhat less prestige/ name recognition across the country (don’t just want to match in CA)
• Bigger class size and changing curriculum: very worried about 3rd year rotations with both 3rd years and 2nd years having to rotate at the same time. Don’t want to be driving through LA traffic 2 hours to get to a hospital
• AOA means at least some competition between students during clinical rotations, which could be further amplified with 2nd and 3rd years working at same time. Don’t want to have to worry about comparing myself to anyone
• AOA could mean focus on doing a lot of extracurriculars just for the sake of putting them down rather than investing yourself in a few that you actually want to take part in.
• Crowded rotations could affect Step 2 score, which may replace step 1 as very important piece of residency application
• Match list is great but not as good as Stanford in the specialties I want to pursue

What do you think?

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[marcosma]

If you got into Stanford and UCLA for medical school, I wouldn't be worried about the rotations affecting your Step 2 score - you obviously know how to study for and take a test. Still, the changing curriculum is a definite concern and something to think more about. I don't think there is a huge difference in prestige at all.

Other people will definitely have more eloquent arguments, but ... take the UCLA money. You worked hard in the private sector for your money! Use it to start your life, don't throw it down a well!!!

 

[Rachapkis]

UCLA hands down. The Geffen is an amazing scholarship--it covers everything, including tuition, housing, travel, books, etc. Do not underestimate the how much hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt will affect you through and after residency. Your post-grad self will thank you for taking the full ride. What's more, UCLA is ranked in the top 10 in both research and primary care. Residency programs--on both coasts--definitely understand how highly UCLA is ranked. Doing well at UCLA, like doing well at Sanford, will give you an excellent chance at matching at one of your top choices. What's more, Westwood Village is a great place to live and study, and it is made even better by its proximity to your family. Of course, Stanford is a great school, but unless you come from an independently wealthy family who will cover your tuition and living expenses, the marginal difference in perceived prestige is not worth it--especially if you prefer Westwood to Palo Alto.

 

[Monica_David2024]

UCLA hands down. The Geffen is an amazing scholarship--it covers everything, including tuition, housing, travel, books, etc. Do not underestimate the how much hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt will effect through and after residency. Your future self will thank you for taking the full ride. What's more, UCLA is ranked in the top 10 in both research and primary care. Residency programs--on both coasts--definitely understand how highly UCLA is ranked. Doing well at UCLA, like doing well at Sanford, will give you an excellent chance at matching where you want to. What's more, Westwood Village is a great place to live and study, and it is made even better by its proximity to your family. Of course, Stanford is a great school, but unless you come from an independently wealthy family who will cover your tuition, the marginal difference in perceived prestige is not worth it--especially if you prefer Westwood to Palo Alto.

Thanks so much for your feedback! To clarify, though, there would not be hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. I will be able to handle almost everything besides approximately 25k to cover housing.

 

[detritus]

Transformational gift helps eliminate medical school debt for students with financial need

Philanthropic funding will cover both tuition and living expenses for students who qualify for aid, eliminating the need for medical school loans.

med.stanford.edu

If Stanford will be debt free for you given this new aid, Geffen may not be any better of a deal. On the prestige though, UCLA + Geffen carries lots of that as well. I personally liked Stanford a lot more than UCLA because I liked Palo Alto a lot more than Westwood, but of course you hold the opposite opinion so that’s a matter of personal preference. This is a tough one, but I’d pick Stanford for the small class size and flexible curriculum.

 

[langwang3]

Congrats! I'm biased towards the bay area, but in your situation, UCLA Geffen makes the most sense. Even with the new financial-aid at Stanford, given your financial situation, it seems UCLA will still be significantly cheaper.

 

[deleted688779]

When someone has a dream school, I'd say go to the dream school. That is usually my suggestion. I'm the type of person who may regret turning that down. Also, Stanford might not be free but they can give a lot of money, so the difference might not be that big. Although no doors will be closed with either school, Stanford's name will leave doors more open. I also have beef with some aspects of the UC system, especially when compared to a small-class private school.


Disclaimer: I am on the waitlist for UCLA, but regardless, above is my honest opinion.

 

[walterwhite3556]

UCLA and it isn’t even close. Save your hard earned money (maybe invest some of it and have that money grow while you’re at UCLA). You’ll thank yourself in 10 years when you’re done with residency and will have a nice down payment on a house in Malibu.

 

[deleted480308]

take the money

 

[Pluto98]

Take the money no doubt. If you look at the total cost, paying for Stanford now (280k) = 440k after finishing derm residency. Couple that with the fact that you aren’t paying taxes on the scholarship money from UCLA but you did on the money for Stanford, your total end cost is around 900k more to go to Stanford over UCLA. Not worth it

 

[SleazySalesMed]

Looks like you're trying to justify choosing Stanford. The logical choice here is clear, compadre.

UCLA

 

[ricardo.wannabedoc]

I think you should think about why Stanford is your dream school. Just by reading the pros/cons list you made, I don't get the sense that you feel Stanford is worth paying $300,000+ more than UCLA. You even say that you left both interviews feeling like you want to attend both schools. UCLA is closer to family, you save a heck-of-a-lot, and you prefer the location.

And I'm not a business guy, but as others have said: at the end of the day, not only are you losing $300,000+ by going there, you are also losing out on any investments you coulda made with that money.

 

[Goro]

Never posted before but longtime lurker and would love some insight. Sorry for the long intro, but I’m trying to give as much context as possible for my decision.

In the future, I have three specialty choices in mind: ophthalmology, dermatology and ortho. As all three of these are competitive, I’m looking to put myself in the best position to succeed. I’m also potentially interested in academic medicine and don’t want to close any doors on that front either.

I’ve lived in California my whole life but have more family in Southern California than Northern California. I don’t have a preference for where I match, and the east coast actually sounds exciting to me post-medical school as I’ve never lived outside of California before.

With regards to cost, obviously that’s the biggest difference here. I will say, though, that I didn’t have to pay for my undergraduate education (scholarship) and have worked in the private sector for several years so I have saved enough money to pay for medical school myself for the most part, which is great because I have saved money but not great because I won’t qualify for need-based aid and therefore will have to use a lot of that money if I go to Stanford. Ultimately, I’ve calculated that using the money I have earned I won’t have to take out more than 25k in loans total for housing for the 4 years of medical school (I’ll be able to pay full tuition and part of housing).

I think that in the competitive specialties I hope to pursue, I am okay with paying back those loans over time if it means giving me an advantage in terms of getting the best residency possible. I’ll post pros/cons below, but for me it comes down to this: Is the Stanford education worth paying full tuition/ taking out 25k in loans for housing over the UCLA education keeping in mind my future career goals and the fact that I have saved money precisely to keep all options open.

Finally, I loved interview day at both schools and came away from both thinking that if I got in I would 100 percent want to attend. I recognize this is a good problem to have and never thought I would be in this situation. I’m extremely grateful and would love any tips when making a decision.

Stanford:
Pros:

• Prestige (for academic medicine) especially with step 1 going p/f. The name seems to carry a lot of weight and stays with you forever
• Smaller class size (90 as opposed to 175? I think) means easier to find research mentors, get good LOR; all students seemed to know each other on interview day
• No AOA, don’t want to be in too competitive of an environment like undergrad
• Curriculum is not changing
• Match list is WILD (in a good way). Didn’t see many better.
• Been my dream school since I was young. Flat out denied here for undergrad

Cons:

• $$$, have to spend a lot to go/live here (but Westwood isn’t cheap either) and move from Southern California
• Family closer to UCLA
• Many students take longer to complete medical school. As I’m non-trad, want to get done in 4 years and get to residency.

UCLA:

Pros:

• FREE, everything covered with Geffen scholarship. Don’t have to spend the $$$ I’ve made or take out any loans for housing (albeit small loans)
• I love Los Angeles and the weather can’t be beat anywhere
• Closer to family
• Loved Reagan hospital (didn’t get to visit Stanford’s new hospital as it wasn’t open during interview)

Cons:

• Somewhat less prestige/ name recognition across the country (don’t just want to match in CA)
• Bigger class size and changing curriculum: very worried about 3rd year rotations with both 3rd years and 2nd years having to rotate at the same time. Don’t want to be driving through LA traffic 2 hours to get to a hospital
• AOA means at least some competition between students during clinical rotations, which could be further amplified with 2nd and 3rd years working at same time. Don’t want to have to worry about comparing myself to anyone
• AOA could mean focus on doing a lot of extracurriculars just for the sake of putting them down rather than investing yourself in a few that you actually want to take part in.
• Crowded rotations could affect Step 2 score, which may replace step 1 as very important piece of residency application
• Match list is great but not as good as Stanford in the specialties I want to pursue

What do you think?

UCLA all the way.

 

[strappysandals]

UCLA obviously. You will be happy with your choice when you use that 200k + you have saved up to buy a house in residency.

 

[TheDataKing]

UCLA. While you have the money to pay for school, UCLA is just as prestigious as Stanford and you’d save money going there. You could invest what you’ve earned or use it in residency or as a supplement to the Geffen scholarship

 

[nimbus]

If it was Stanford vs Riverside, Davis, or Irvine there might be a reasonable argument to choose Stanford. But you will have similar opportunities at both UCLA and Stanford. You will have the best chance to get tippy tip of the spear residencies from both schools. Congrats!! Go Bruins!

 

[deleted972488]

I withdrew from Stanford after I got the Geffen scholarship. I thought Stanford was my top choice after interviewing, but it wouldn’t be worth going to into debt when I can attend another great school for free.

In some ways UCLA has more going for it than Stanford, too. LA seems more fun than Palo Alto and comes with a more diverse patient population. You have two great options, but I personally think you should save your money.

 

[StormPhoenix]

Wait... I don't think I'm reading this correctly. You want to more or less eat through your entire savings to attend a school that's a whole 3 ranks better?? While turning down medicine's possibly most prestigious scholarship in the process that would save you that money...? In the same state???

Oh, man. Thank you for this, really. I just realised I need a break from SDN

 

[Dream of the Endless]

I think this is oversimplifying the case a lot. If you read the pros and cons, there are legitimate concerns about UCLA clinical rotations (changing curriculum) and he/she clearly doesn't want to worry about competition in the class. I'm making the same choice, and it's not a slam dunk either way.

Going to have to disagree with you. I had the same school offers, but no Geffen scholarship. I chose Stanford only because I want the name and the vast majority of my goals lay outside of direct clinical medicine. If I was an MD only candidate and received the Geffen scholarship, I would definitely have chosen UCLA.

This is a debt (I'm considering all of the money lost as debt, because you would keep it otherwise) vs. perceived value issue here. Specifically, a Geffen scholar vs. a "regular" Stanford student, can you really argue their match will be significantly different? As others mentioned, the losses incurred could have easily be invested into other things. Regarding the whole clinical rotations issue, I understand that it comes across as an unnecessary hustle. But here's my thinking. A group of people far more intelligent than me collectively made this decision. I'm sure they've taken these things into consideration when they ultimately decided to make this change. Does it suck to be a guinea pig? Yes, without a doubt. However, I'd personally take that headache in a heartbeat considering the benefits. Maybe you disagree, and that's fine.

This is among as clear of a "slam dunk" as school decisions come. Based on a cost-benfit analysis, it's just not logical to choose Stanford no matter which way you slice it. You're not significantly losing out on any of the major considerations: location, clinical experience, research potential, proximity of support system, cost, prestige, or match potential. Not to be overly cliche' but "Dream" sounds nice (heck it's in my username and an old personal nickname!) on paper, but OP's reality here is much sweeter than many people have dared to dream. Just my thoughts

 

[Skarl]

Going to have to disagree with you. I had the same school offers, but no Geffen scholarship. I chose Stanford only because I want the name and the vast majority of my goals lay outside of direct clinical medicine. If I was an MD only candidate and received the Geffen scholarship, I would definitely have chosen UCLA.

This is a debt (I'm considering all of the money lost as debt, because you would keep it otherwise) vs. perceived value issue here. Specifically, a Geffen scholar vs. a "regular" Stanford student, can you really argue their match will be significantly different? As others mentioned, the losses incurred could have easily be invested into other things. Regarding the whole clinical rotations issue, I understand that it comes across as an unnecessary hustle. But here's my thinking. A group of people far more intelligent than me collectively made this decision. I'm sure they've taken these things into consideration when they ultimately decided to make this change. Does it suck to be a guinea pig? Yes, without a doubt. However, I'd personally take that headache in a heartbeat considering the benefits. Maybe you disagree, and that's fine.

This is among as clear of a "slam dunk" as school decisions come. Based on a cost-benfit analysis, it's just not logical to choose Stanford no matter which way you slice it. You're not significantly losing out on any of the major considerations: location, clinical experience, research potential, proximity of support system, cost, prestige, or match potential. Not to be overly cliche' but "Dream" sounds nice (heck it's in my username and an old personal nickname!) on paper, but OP's reality here is much sweeter than many people have dared to dream. Just my thoughts

Can you cite evidence that Geffen Scholarship confers significant advantages in residency matching? Consensus seems to be little/minimal benefit from a recent thread about this topic: Merit Scholarships and Residency Matches

 

[Dream of the Endless]

Can you cite evidence that Geffen Scholarship confers significant advantages in residency matching? Consensus seems to be little/minimal benefit from a recent thread about this topic: Merit Scholarships and Residency Matches

My argument isn't that it confers a significant advantage. At the end of the day, it's an award based on your efforts prior to matriculation. My argument is that you're not losing out in the residency matching process by going to UCLA on a full CoA scholarship vs. a Stanford applicant.

 

[Skarl]

My argument isn't that it confers a significant advantage. At the end of the day, it's an award based on your efforts prior to matriculation. My argument is that you're not losing out in the residency matching process by going to UCLA on a full CoA scholarship vs. a Stanford applicant.

Got it! I think it was important to clarify that you are making an argument on the basis of individual ability rather than prestige/name of the institution vs. scholarship, though.
For what it’s worth, I mostly agree with your recommendation for OP.

 

[deleted972488]

I think this is oversimplifying the case a lot. If you read the pros and cons, there are legitimate concerns about UCLA clinical rotations (changing curriculum) and he/she clearly doesn't want to worry about competition in the class. I'm making the same choice, and it's not a slam dunk either way.

For me it was. I will put up with some inconveniences (and we don’t know how bad it’ll be; some speculate it might actually make things easier on us) for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

 

[Monica_David2024]

Can you cite evidence that Geffen Scholarship confers significant advantages in residency matching? Consensus seems to be little/minimal benefit from a recent thread about this topic: Merit Scholarships and Residency Matches
[/QUOTE]

Thanks to everyone for their valuable feedback. One reason I am torn is because of this right here ^. Everybody says that applying to residencies with the Geffen is the same (in residency directors' minds) as applying from Harvard/Stanford, but I don't see how that is the case given the respective match lists. If ALL ELSE IS EQUAL, do you all think that residency directors looking at a Geffen medical student vs. a Stanford medical student would be viewed equally? I'm more inclined to believe they would take the Stanford student based on the above thread. And this doesn't mean going to Stanford is worth the extra $$$, but it is something that worries me and makes my decision a bit more complicated.
In short: If I go to UCLA and do great, I know that all doors will be open. But if I go to Stanford and do just okay, will those same doors be open (hence making life a bit less stressful throughout med school)?

@Rachapkis @detritus @langwang3 @Fruitjuice @sb247 @walterwhite3556 @walter_heisenberg @SleazySalesMed @Goro @TheDataKing

 

[deleted972488]

If your goal is "I must go to Stanford/MGH/UCSF for residency" then sure, going to Stanford might offer you a significant advantage.

But why does that even matter? Plenty of people who go to UCLA match into ophthalmology, dermatology, and orthopedics (your specialty choices) and/or pursue careers in academic medicine.

 

[SleazySalesMed]

Expert opinion was already rendered. LizzyM came through and liked Dream's comment. I don't think there's any statistical evidence that you match like Harvard, but in the same breathe the difference isn't that great.

You're putting too much importance on name brand, and not seeing the clear picture here or the implications of your statements. If doors are shut for a consistent and solid T10 program lol, where does that leave every other student in the rest of the country vying for any type of competitive residency? If you use Case Western as an example (the very bottom T25) and look at their crazy surgical match rate, you must realize on some level a part of it is your own effort.

If you're looking for an excuse to choose Stanford, you won't get one. It's not the rational choice given the alternative. The survey results are also overwhelmingly in favor of UCLA. But people tend to do whatever they want at the end of the day, so best of luck

 

[Pluto98]

Can you cite evidence that Geffen Scholarship confers significant advantages in residency matching? Consensus seems to be little/minimal benefit from a recent thread about this topic: Merit Scholarships and Residency Matches

Thanks to everyone for their valuable feedback. One reason I am torn is because of this right here ^. Everybody says that applying to residencies with the Geffen is the same (in residency directors' minds) as applying from Harvard/Stanford, but I don't see how that is the case given the respective match lists. If ALL ELSE IS EQUAL, do you all think that residency directors looking at a Geffen medical student vs. a Stanford medical student would be viewed equally? I'm more inclined to believe they would take the Stanford student based on the above thread. And this doesn't mean going to Stanford is worth the extra $$$, but it is something that worries me and makes my decision a bit more complicated.
In short: If I go to UCLA and do great, I know that all doors will be open. But if I go to Stanford and do just okay, will those same doors be open (hence making life a bit less stressful throughout med school)?

@Rachapkis @detritus @langwang3 @Fruitjuice @sb247 @walterwhite3556 @walter_heisenberg @SleazySalesMed @Goro @TheDataKing
[/QUOTE]

You need to look at it this way. Lets say that if you go to stanford, you will have an easier time matching at stanford/mass gen/UCSF. If you go to UCLA, will likely match to UCLA. Even if this was the case, is it worth 900k to do your residency at UCSF vs. UCLA? I dont think it is considering your career trajectory is unlikely to differ greatly. This isn't even the case though because coming from UCLA, if you do well, you will still be able to get the residency at UCSF. Then, 4 years later, you will both be 900k richer and in the exact same residency as if you went to Stanford. All the adults are telling you to take the money whereas all the kids are telling you to take the prestige (if I had to guess as is what happened/is happening with me). They know something we don't and that is how much financial burden down the road sucks the life out of you.

 

[Monica_David2024]

@Radiata20 @efle @Lucca @Lawper @WedgeDawg anything else you think is important before making a decision? Would love your thoughts.

 

[Monica_David2024]

I'm beginning to think you should just go to Stanford and let someone else have the scholarship.

I think it's fair to ask for opinions when making this decision. I'm trying to make the most informed decision possible.

 

[deleted972488]

I think it's fair to ask for opinions when making this decision. I'm trying to make the most informed decision possible.

Yeah, it's just that plenty of people have given you their opinions and you seem to be ignoring them.

 

[Monica_David2024]

Yeah, it's just that plenty of people have given you their opinions and you seem to be ignoring them.

I value everyone's opinion. I'm asking for more opinions because I'm trying to make an informed decision. Asking for more opinions doesn't mean I don't value everyone else's. I'm incredibly thankful for the feedback on here and it has actually pushed me towards UCLA. I get it, I'd just like to hear from everybody I can. It's a big decision. If you don't want to hear other opinions, please feel free to unfollow the thread.

 

[Lawpy]

I'd pick UCLA because cost matters and having a support system nearby would help. Also i think UCLA and Stanford are both top tiers so there isn't really a prestige difference. But if you have really really strong interests in Stanford that you are willing to be in debt, that might be the better option. It's a really personal decision at that point though

 

[ricardo.wannabedoc]

At this point I feel like you should be at opinion-saturation-point...I don't think there is anything else the people you've tagged can say that will make this decision any easier or harder for you.

Good luck!

 

[imbesrs]

I think it's fair to ask for opinions when making this decision. I'm trying to make the most informed decision possible.

Youre choosing between two top 10 schools, one of whom is giving you full COA under one of the most prestigious scholarships medically. There will be a negligible difference in your match, how youre looked upon as a resident and/or attending. If your ego/prestige pride is something you seriously consider is worth 300k then only you can make that choice. The only way Stanford is a real contender is if they do go debt free and the amt you'd be paying based on estimated family contribution is low enough to where the minute prestige difference is worth it in your eyes.

The way you respond to people saying pick geffen makes it seem like youre waiting for for a few people to validate your choice in Stanford

All the adults are telling you to take the money whereas all the kids are telling you to take the prestige (if I had to guess as is what happened/is happening with me). They know something we don't and that is how much financial burden down the road sucks the life out of you.

This is the best post in the whole thread

 

[Monica_David2024]

Youre choosing between two top 10 schools, one of whom is giving you full COA under one of the most prestigious scholarships medically. There will be a negligible difference in your match, how youre looked upon as a resident and/or attending. If your ego/prestige pride is something you seriously consider is worth 300k then only you can make that choice. The only way Stanford is a real contender is if they do go debt free and the amt you'd be paying based on estimated family contribution is low enough to where the minute prestige difference is worth it in your eyes.

The way you respond to people saying pick geffen makes it seem like youre waiting for for a few people to validate your choice in Stanford


This is the best post in the whole thread

Thanks for the advice! I'm honestly not searching for validation and I am leaning towards UCLA based on the valuable feedback provided in this thread. I appreciate it.

 

[imbesrs]

Thanks for the advice! I'm honestly not searching for validation and I am leaning towards UCLA based on the valuable feedback provided in this thread. I appreciate it.

Glad to hear it! I hope you are happy in your decision- you cant go wrong!

 

[Pluto98]

Thanks for the advice! I'm honestly not searching for validation and I am leaning towards UCLA based on the valuable feedback provided in this thread. I appreciate it.

If it makes you feel any better, purchase your new Ferrari 488 and go to UCLA. You will have infinite prestige lmao

 

[Rachapkis]

In my opinion, you are significantly overvaluing the difference between Stanford and UCLA in the minds of residency directors. I suspect the difference is negligible and not a driver of outcomes. Just to add some data to the mix, here is a survey of what they look for . . .
https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NRMP-2018-Program-Director-Survey-for-WWW.pdf

In addition, you may be overlooking the fact that residency matches are also driven by the med student's preferences. When I look at UCLA's match list, I see a huge bias towards So Cal. I suspect in large part that is because the students love it there.

 

[Morc]

UCLA because thats hundreds of thousands of mcchickens saved for future use

 

[ricardo.wannabedoc]

UCLA because thats hundreds of thousands of mcchickens saved for future use

And hot cheetos

 

[jessicajonesharvard]

Didn’t Stanford go debt free recently?

 

[langwang3]

Didn’t Stanford go debt free recently?

It's need-based, so based on what OP has said in this thread, it doesn't seem like this will make much if any difference

 

[Monica_David2024]

It's need-based, so based on what OP has said in this thread, it doesn't seem like this will make much if any difference

Correct, I don't anticipate much need-based assistance.

 

[Radiata20]

@Radiata20 @efle @Lucca @Lawper @WedgeDawg anything else you think is important before making a decision? Would love your thoughts.

Didn't read all posts so apologies if I'm repeating from messages above, but here are the main factors I might hypothetically consider if I were making this decision again:

1. Financial-related, given different financial packages at each school:
   • Med school budget--Difference in amount of money you are willing to spend on a month-by-month basis during med school on groceries/eating out/etc.
   • Resident and early-attending finances--Find someone whose financial literacy you trust to help you calculate the expected difference in income you will have if you are debt-free AND with the money you currently have in the bank/investments, vs carrying educational debt. For approximate numbers, figure out which loan-repayment plan you might pick, expected investment returns, look at median income of a few specialties you think you might do, and remember to take into account expected taxes (though who knows what the exact tax code will hold for us ~a decade from now).
   • Specialty choice--Do some soul-searching. Which specialties do you think you might want to do? And if one of those isn't a well-compensating one, will you TRULY pick the specialty you most want to do when you are an MS3 making this life-changing decision, if there is ~$25k educational debt, vs. $0 debt AND $________ instead in your bank account? (If your top 3 specialties are derm, ophtho, ortho, then you don't need to worry about this bullet point as much, although it's hardly a guarantee that you can match into those...)
2. Family and friends
   • Proximity--Some people have personal commitments, family members, significant others, best friends etc. whom they would like to remain close to.
   • Job opps--Some people have SO's whose job prospects depends on which city they are in.
3. Future plans
   • Where do you want to settle down eventually?--For most specialties, there is a palpable in-house and in-region advantage; that is, residency programs tend to like taking students from their own affiliated med school, or at least from the same geographical region (city, region of state, state, coast, etc.). This bias apparently continues onward at the fellowship and attending position I'm told for many subspecialties etc. Obviously not to say a Harvard graduate can't match to the west coast, but even NorCal residency programs commented during my interviews that they would have to "recruit me away from SoCal" and I was asked several times by them what I thought the "differences were between NorCal and SoCal." Not to mention several interviewers at a next-door state seemed quite skeptical that I would actually rank them highly, until they heard how many family members and friends I had in that state.
4. Med school quality of life
   • Did you like the students at Second Look?--Though don't put too much stock into it because anyone can put on a good face for a weekend.
   • Culture of mentorship and teaching?--Hard to assess unless you think you have an unbiased MS3/4 contact, but med school is about more than learning from books. Having good seniors, residents, and attending who care about your education will be a key factor in determining what kind of doctor you become 4.5-5.5 years from now. That said, one thing to pay attention to is how many MS2s, 3s, and 4s you see at Second Look. Any school can get relatively less-busy MS1s to staff events. It's much harder to convince stressed out MS2's studying for Step 1, sleep-deprived MS3's on clerkships, and post-match MS4s who are too busy enjoying their freedom to come recruit you. If several of these upperclassmen show up, that's a good indication that a culture of mentorship is likely a part fo this med school's identity IMO.
   • Figure out if the drawbacks of each school are worth it to you--No school is perfect, and I have friends at both schools who are readily admit that several aspects of their education are not ideal. I will not mention specifics here, you should hear them directly from the mouths of students in person, probably at Second Looks. Anyone who says their school is perfect is either lying or hasn't been there long enough!
   • Do you like the clinical situation?--Driving situation for training sites, hospitals themselves. Ask current students if you can.
   • How do you like the surrounding city, and nearby cities?--Wine tasting in Napa vs Temecula? Beaches in LA vs Bay Area? Nightlife and foodie scene in Palo Alto/SF/SJ vs Westwood/Beverly Hills/Santa Monica?
   • Living situation--on- and off- campus housing situation?

Couple specifics for your situation:

1. Our ophtho dept is AMAZING here, I have never had a better rotation experience and I'm not even applying ophtho. Every single ophtho resident and fellow and attending thus far has been a wonderful, welcoming teacher. You won't be dissapointed if you pick ophtho coming from UCLA. I believe all ?2 of our ophtho applicants matched to UCLA this year. If you care about rankings--not that you should, but if you do--Doximity ranks UCLA ophtho residency as #1 on the west coast by reputation. (USNWR also has UCLA as #1 for ophtho on the west coast but ignore USNWR, go off Doximity.)
2. Not sure how much of a reputation difference there is between the two med schools (specifically med schools, not any of the undergrad or other graduate institutions) so not sure if you should worry about that that much? But I'm hardly the least-biased source. Ask someone, ideally a resident/fellow/attending (or private practice doc) who isn't affiliated or a graduate of either program for the most-informed and least-biased opinion.
3. Crowded rotations will 100% not affect your Step 2 score. Trust me, or ask any anyone who has also already taken CK & CS. Rotation experiences simply do not affect these (they hardly even affect shelf scores it seems). If anything, crowded rotations = fewer patients per student = students get to leave home early = students get more time to study, but honestly I anticipate that the two overlap classes will not have any statistically meaningful differences in CK or CS scores.
4. The traffic situation is unfortunate for Harbor and Kaiser, but if traffic is a big enough deal for you (as it was for me), you can rank your rotations in a way that your longest commute would be 30 minutes for MS3 rotations. Only caveat is yeah I'm not sure what's going to happen with the year of doubled clerkship rotator students, so perhaps it might be harder to get all your rotations close by, but there is no way you would be forced to drive >30 minutes for more than a couple months out of that year even if you got the worst lottery number. MS4 rotations you can do anywhere so you won't be forced to drive far if you don't want to. So I guess figure out if a POSSIBLE couple months of a long commute is not worth the $280,000 or whatever the scholarship comes out to for your year haha.
5. But also to try to not be so biased in my opinion here...go visit Stanford's new hospital. It is GORGEOUS, and the most beautiful hospital I have ever seen. (The outside isn't all that special IMO, but the inside of it is breathtaking.) Definitely showed up on the "pros" list for more residency applicants than just me. I wasn't truly impressed by any other hospital's architectural design on my residency interview trail this year, but wow Stanford <3

 

[Radiata20]

One last note on finances too...if you haven't already, google "physician financial management blog" and take a look at the first result, especially if you haven't spoken with physicians regarding personal finances much yet. It's striking how many of the posts by both the author and readers on the forum revolve around debt-management and how negatively it impacts their quality of life as residents and early attendings, sometimes even late-career attendings if they didn't manage things as well. Read through some of those, or listen to some of the podcasts, and try to get a sense for what exactly your prospective debt-load would do in your future life. Or, if you pick UCLA, try to get a sense for the relief you will feel when you do make it back to that blog/forum/podcast series as an MS4 starting to think about your future income, and get to completely skip every single article, thread, and podcast that is about debt.

I know this doesn't apply as strongly to your situation since you wouldn't have to take out the full ticket price in debt at Stanford, but something to think about in general. The calculation becomes a little bit less about debt for your situation, and more about what else you could do with the money you saved. For starters, first thing I did when I found out I got the scholarship was use some of the money that I had saved that was no longer going to be going towards paying for my med school to instead buy something nice for my parents that they had wanted for decades but never could justify paying for it themselves. If you want to look at it that way, taking the scholarship is essentially giving you ~$280,000 over the next four years to spend on treating your family/significant other to vacations to the coast of Greece, expensive bottles of Bordeaux and Scotch, weekly dinners out to Michelin star restaurants, weekend trips to Tahoe/wine country/Yosemite, and whatever other experiences or material items your loved ones would appreciate...all courtesy of UCLA and Mr. Geffen.

Also you note Westwood isn't cheap and it definitely isn't, but the Geffen Scholarship covers all of that quite easily. Even after tuition, housing, health/dental/vision insurance, organic berry grocery shopping, whisky tasting, etc. many find that there are leftovers to pocket each month from the stipend. So most scholars are actually not just graduating debt-free, they are paid to be a med student. Granted, it is a teeny tiny far-below-minimum-hourly-wage paycheck...but then again so is the residency paycheck when you take into account weekly duty hours so better get used to that

 

[9blade]

Correct, I don't anticipate much need-based assistance.

oh I missed this earlier before I voted. I assumed you would be getting free tuition and housing at Stanford as well. This makes it a much easier decision in my mind. I switch my Stanford vote for UCLA. lol

 

[koalaburrito]

I would go to Stanford. It's been your dream and you'll have more than enough money in life with any of those specialties. Med school is 4 years and the difference of hundreds of thousands will likely only be the difference of being able to retire a year or two earlier. Live your dreams!

 

[bonedoc5576]

just something to consider: $200,000 with a 7% return compounded annually over 30 years grows to over 1.5 million

I know what I would do

 

[Etopn23]

I am facing a similar decision and the more time that passes, the more I think I will go to the school I want to go to.

If that’s Stanford to you, then go to Stanford. The average student graduates in debt. It’s true. You will be in a position where you can easily pay off that debt in the future.

 

[strappysandals]

I am facing a similar decision and the more time that passes, the more I think I will go to the school I want to go to.

If that’s Stanford to you, then go to Stanford. The average student graduates in debt. It’s true. You will be in a position where you can easily pay off that debt in the future.

Spoken like someone who has never been 300k in debt. Granted neither have I (yet), but there is a reason wiser folks (residents, attendings) are recommending taking the scholarship. In this case its even more clear cut, as their is minimal difference in school quality.