UCLA vs. PENN

[hattrack04]

which would you choose and why? I see threads on each school, but if you had to choose between these two schools specifically, what would be the deciding factor for you?? thanks guys for any help you can give

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[xenomblack]

which would you choose and why? I see threads on each school, but if you had to choose between these two schools specifically, what would be the deciding factor for you?? thanks guys for any help you can give

I'd pick LA because they have a better soccer team.

Seriously, you've been to both cities, make your own decision

 

[armorshell]

UCLA = cheaper unless you got the scholarship.

If so then it's all about cheesesteaks vs. tacos

 

[hattrack04]

UCLA = cheaper unless you got the scholarship.

If so then it's all about cheesesteaks vs. tacos

well I think I'm taking the Air Force HPSP scholarship......being that money is not a concern, it makes it such a tough decision

 

[gogiantsss]

Chances for specialization
UCLA and Penn are both great schools if you want to specialize
Edge: Even

Cost
Not really a concern for you.
Edge: Even

Location
Pennsylvania vs LA, really depends on preference

Clinical Aspect
UCLA had been rumored to having a low patient pool.
Penn seemed to have no problem with that.
Edge: Penn

All things being equal, I would choose Penn by a hair. if you ever decide in dental school that you want to become a GP, Penn is the way to go. if you decide that you want to specialize, both schools give you provide great opportunities and both have impressive match rates. So Penn is my choice, just because it gives you more options.

 

[hattrack04]

Chances for specialization
UCLA and Penn are both great schools if you want to specialize
Edge: Even

Cost
Not really a concern for you.
Edge: Even

Location
Pennsylvania vs LA, really depends on preference

Clinical Aspect
UCLA had been rumored to having a low patient pool.
Penn seemed to have no problem with that.
Edge: Penn

All things being equal, I would choose Penn by a hair. if you ever decide in dental school that you want to become a GP, Penn is the way to go. if you decide that you want to specialize, both schools give you provide great opportunities and both have impressive match rates. So Penn is my choice, just because it gives you more options.

Thanks for the help!!

 

[brownbearinhair]

You should go to penn if you get the scholarship on top of your military full ride. If not go to UCLA, unless you like humidity and a city voted as the least attractive people. Plus the guy up above chose penn by clinical, but it wont matter after a four year payback through the military.

 

[hattrack04]

You should go to penn if you get the scholarship on top of your military full ride. If not go to UCLA, unless you like humidity and a city voted as the least attractive people. Plus the guy up above chose penn by clinical, but it wont matter after a four year payback through the military.

Regarding the scholarship, I'm pretty sure they said they would give it to someone else if that person was already on a full scholarship program like the military scholarship (which I probably would do since tuition will still be around $47,000 per year.) And yes, UCLA's location is VERY nice and I have never lived in that type of area where it's always warm......but then there's facilities to consider....I thought Penn's facilities were very nice, and they plan on renovating the main clinic while we are students there..........most of UCLA's facilities are not as nice and don't have a dent sim lab, but the clinic wasn't too old looking, and it has all new equipment.......ahh this is going to be such a hard decision!!!

 

[Revellian]

most of UCLA's facilities are not as nice and don't have a dent sim lab, but the clinic wasn't too old looking, and it has all new equipment.......ahh this is going to be such a hard decision!!!

UCLA has a sim lab that was just opened in 2005. I'm surprised they didn't take you through it as part of the tour at your interview.

I'm one of the few from UCLA that opted to pursue general dentistry, and I don't feel my clinical education was lacking in any way. There is not a shortage of patients at UCLA. I have no idea what Penn's clinical requirements are, so I couldn't compare them. If you're interested you could try calling each of the schools to try to find out what the clinical requirements are for crowns, bridges, amalgams, composites, complete/partial dentures, etc. to get a better idea of each school's clinical experience.

 

[BuckeyMcGee]

UCLA all the way. Better city and better program...much better facilities as well. I would definitely try and go to UCLA if I were back in your position a few years ago.

 

[hattrack04]

UCLA has a sim lab that was just opened in 2005. I'm surprised they didn't take you through it as part of the tour at your interview.

I'm one of the few from UCLA that opted to pursue general dentistry, and I don't feel my clinical education was lacking in any way. There is not a shortage of patients at UCLA. I have no idea what Penn's clinical requirements are, so I couldn't compare them. If you're interested you could try calling each of the schools to try to find out what the clinical requirements are for crowns, bridges, amalgams, composites, complete/partial dentures, etc. to get a better idea of each school's clinical experience.

I think we may be talking about different types of sim labs.......at penn they have a sim lab where a computer knows exactly how you drill the tooth (size, depth, etc.) and will determine whether or not you should repeat the procedure......it also is meant to help you practice good ergonomics.....for example if you lean a certain way, which may be an improper position, the computer will shut off your drill piece until you return to the correct position..........as far as clinical requirements, Penn has no specific requirements....its split into multiple group practices like UCLA, and the only requirement is to perform so many minor, intermediate, and complicated cases........so the clinical set up is very similar.....there are just rumors about having problems finding patients at UCLA. This is not much of a concern because I will be getting plenty of clinical experience w/i the Air Force, plus I've heard from many (including yourself) that it's not hard to find patients/fulfill requirements at UCLA............which is why i continue to struggle with the decision

 

[brownbearinhair]

UCLA requires loops and these will make you have proper ergonomics. The virtual reality at penn was cool but I wonder how much it will really helps compared to just a regular sim lab. I was excited after I saw it too, but they made it seem at the interview that the only thing it improves is unbiased grading by a professor. It was cool though. On the other hand hot weather, beach, and good sports teams might outweigh it.

 

[hattrack04]

UCLA requires loops and these will make you have proper ergonomics. The virtual reality at penn was cool but I wonder how much it will really helps compared to just a regular sim lab. I was excited after I saw it too, but they made it seem at the interview that the only thing it improves is unbiased grading by a professor. It was cool though. On the other hand hot weather, beach, and good sports teams might outweigh it.

What exactly are loops? I don't remember them talking about that at the interview. And yes I am considering sports and weather, being that I went to Michigan (crappy weather) and I love Michigan football (108,000+ fans every game!) plus the other sports as well....Penn has been my first choice for so long....but after my interview experience, I've found many things about UCLA that compete with all of my reasons for originally choosing Penn
Im assuming you're choosing UCLA over Penn ??

 

[BuckeyMcGee]

You use loupes to see, they are basically magnifying glasses over your eyes. Most dental schools reccomend you get them and they're pretty expensive but help a lot, and save your back!

 

[Revellian]

as far as clinical requirements, Penn has no specific requirements....its split into multiple group practices like UCLA, and the only requirement is to perform so many minor, intermediate, and complicated cases........so the clinical set up is very similar

If Penn has no specific requirements, there is a significant difference between the two schools. Your clinical experience at UCLA will be almost entirely requirement-driven in your 3rd and 4th years.

 

[brownbearinhair]

Yeah.

 

[brownbearinhair]

Penn is nice but UCLA is to good to pass up. Did you know at penn if your patient doesnt pay then they will bill you? I thought that was ridiculous.

 

[Revellian]

You use loupes to see, they are basically magnifying glasses over your eyes. Most dental schools reccomend you get them and they're pretty expensive but help a lot, and save your back!

Loupes can help save your back a little if you already have good posture, but the loupes themselves won't help much with your ergonomics. I had plenty of classmates that looked like they were practicing yoga during patient treatment, trying to arch their back in ways God never intended so they could get direct vision into the patient's mouth with the aid of their trusty loupes.

 

[hattrack04]

Yeah ill be there.

Are you from CA?

 

[brownbearinhair]

yeah.

 

[hattrack04]

yeah

yeah Westwood is amazing, I wish I could have been there for more than 20 hrs.....I was fortunate enough to have a day and a half before my interview at Penn to really get a feel for the atmosphere there...

 

[Shunwei]

yeah Westwood is amazing, I wish I could have been there for more than 20 hrs.....I was fortunate enough to have a day and a half before my interview at Penn to really get a feel for the atmosphere there...

I am surprised no one has brought up the issue of P/F system. Penn does not have this, and when I was there I had a really negative impression made on me by the students on how cutthroat the competition is and how this affects the atmosphere; now I don't know if this was true or if this were simply the student's one-sided personal experience, but it is not illogical to imagine that a school with P/F does allow you to take it a bit easier and see your classmates as collaborators rather than competitors. And the good thing about UCLA is that the P/F system is a "real" one: meaning that it is different from UCSF and Columbia, where they will still differentiate between the "exceptionals" and the "highly recommended" and whatnot.

 

[hattrack04]

I am surprised no one has brought up the issue of P/F system.

Yes, this is someting else that I've been considering......P/F system seems that it would reduce the competition between classmates.....but a part of me also thinks that competition will still exist whether there is a p/f system or not.........to get this far we all must be somewhat competitive by nature

 

[dayfu17]

My friend goes to UCLA, and despite their grading scale being p/f, they have something called EPR, which is basically an honors rating like Columbia and UCSF. So those people that want to specialize are going to be fighting for them just as much as people at Penn are fighting for A's. Anyone from UCLA is free to correct me, if I am wrong about the EPR's.

 

[hattrack04]

My friend goes to UCLA, and despite their grading scale being p/f, they have something called EPR, which is basically an honors rating like Columbia and UCSF. So those people that want to specialize are going to be fighting for them just as much as people at Penn are fighting for A's. Anyone from UCLA is free to correct me, if I am wrong about the EPR's.

Yeah I heard about those during the questioning session with dental students....but it seemed like it did not matter for specialization.......one dental student equated the honor rating like a "gold star" sticker on a test. He said that it does mean you did well, but most specialization programs don't even get a chance to see those on your record......again, this may not be the true case....

 

[goms]

I am glad you guys brought up this P/F system. I think that that is actually a disadvantage of UCLA. On the one hand, it is sure nice to take off that pressure of having to compete with fellow classmates, but on the other hand, it seems like one could stand out more at another school if s/he is used to getting good grades. I am deciding between UCLA and some other schools (Penn, UMich, UWash), and this is a factor that, in my opinion, weighs against UCLA. Obviously, their high specialty acceptances speak for themselves, but who wants to compete with 15 other orth/endo/orals classmates from the same school when there is little-to-no separation?

 

[hattrack04]

I am glad you guys brought up this P/F system. I think that that is actually a disadvantage of UCLA. On the one hand, it is sure nice to take off that pressure of having to compete with fellow classmates, but on the other hand, it seems like one could stand out more at another school if s/he is used to getting good grades. I am deciding between UCLA and some other schools (Penn, UMich, UWash), and this is a factor that, in my opinion, weighs against UCLA. Obviously, their high specialty acceptances speak for themselves, but who wants to compete with 15 other orth/endo/orals classmates from the same school when there is little-to-no separation?

But then you have to think of the other ways that can seperate yourself....
-board scores
-letters of rec
-evidence showing your interest in that specialty

plus you may be less separated among your fellow classmates, but you will still be more separated from the rest of the pack....specialty programs realize that UCLA is a great program in general, and specific grades are not as much of a concern to them because they know that UCLA always produces students who are qualified for specialty

 

[goms]

ucla does carry good weight for specializing, but if 15 people are applying to, say, ortho in a given year, where most programs take on 4-6 people, they are just not going to accept everyone--and probably hardly ever more than one--at any given school. as for your logic re: board scores, letters of rec, etc., those are all things that will be there for you at any school. add that to grades (given that's clearly your strong point); imagine your candidiacy to dental school without grades. all of the sudden you go from being a great candidate to a fine one.

i for one will most likely not be a ucla next year. dentists i talk to who are not in l.a. do not see it as a school that stands out compared to a penn or michigan or unc. i totally understand the appeal, as westwood is unbelievble, the weather is perfect, and the students seem great. but if i want to maximize my chances of getting into the best specialty possible (if that's what i eventually want), i think there are better places to be.

i also think that having such a high rate of specialization speaks to the fact that 1) maybe they are not as interested in giving you the best clinical education possible and 2) i think you'd find, as i've heard, that competition there even without grades is very stiff given the high number of people who are trying to stand out.

 

[hattrack04]

i for one will most likely not be a ucla next year.

Which school do you plan to attend?

 

[goms]

university of washington. that is my state school, and i have heard a lot of positive things about it at other interviews, interestingly enough. i am going there for the same reasons im not going to ucla; namely that the education is equally great but with grades and less people trying to specialize. i think it gives be the best chance to stand out if i want to specialize. it's also hard to pass down such a great price for education.

 

[Shunwei]

Obviously, their high specialty acceptances speak for themselves, but who wants to compete with 15 other orth/endo/orals classmates from the same school when there is little-to-no separation?

If this were the case, the P/F system would not have been adopted and should not be growing in popularity. At UCLA, as another poster above pointed out, you still have EPR, but that's reserved for like the top 2-3 folks in the class and is quite different than the "tier" system adopted by Columbia. And everyone has off days, so it is comfortable knowing that even if you slip up a bit, the consequences are not catastrophic, as would be the case if you were fighting to be the top 10% of the class. And don't forget that your individual files will still contain comments from your instructors, so in a way your recommendation letter for specialization will still reflect a bit about you as a person, and not just because you "passed."

In the end, to each his own. If you are certain that you are good enough to separate yourself from your classmates and enjoy that kind of atmosphere, by all means go for it. I personally enjoy a somewhat laid-back atmosphere, although I will still work very hard during my education.

 

[hattrack04]

maybe I can work a deal with the schools, in which I would go to UCLA for 2 yrs, and then Penn for the other 2 yrs......

 

[brownbearinhair]

Goms, thats great if you want to go to washington. I personally couldn't go there, I mean there is a reason they use to be called "The Sundodgers" before the "Huskys". HATTRACK, go with where you think you'll like. Im sure every region has there bias but in california UCLA has an unbelievable reputation. For me UCLA and Penn are about equal but i plan on living in california the rest of my life and UCLA is way more respectable here than PENN. P/F has to be one of the greatest things I've ever heard of. In my interview they said the same thing as SHUNWEI said about EPR.

 

[sacjumpman]

Goms, thats great if you want to go to washington. I personally couldn't go there, I mean there is a reason they use to be called "The Sundodgers" before the "Huskys". HATTRACK, go with where you think you'll like. Im sure every region has there bias but in california UCLA has an unbelievable reputation. For me UCLA and Penn are about equal but i plan on living in california the rest of my life and UCLA is way more respectable here than PENN. P/F has to be one of the greatest things I've ever heard of.In my interview they said the same thing as SHUNWEI said about EPR.

I agree! P/F is a major drawing point. Like said above, everyone getting into school is probably at least a bit competitive to begin with. So anything that will contribute to an atmosphere to relax this will make 4 years that much less stressful.

 

[hattrack04]

HATTRACK, go with where you think you'll like.

That's the thing.....I feel like I would enjoy attending both of these schools

 

[Revellian]

i think you'd find, as i've heard, that competition there even without grades is very stiff given the high number of people who are trying to stand out.

I'm puzzled where pre-dents keep hearing that UCLA is so cut-throat. My class was quite the opposite and I think the P/F system helped to reduce alot of the competition. Class notes and study guides were routinely emailed out before tests. My classmates knew that their opportunity to specialize depended almost entirely on their board scores and extracurricular activities, so competing for EPRs was largely fruitless.

And you can't argue with the results of the P/F system. The year I graduated I believe 12/14 matched to ortho, while the year before 22/25 matched into ortho.

 

[gogiantsss]

cant go wrong with either schools

hattrack, final decision?

 

[harjay]

cant go wrong with either schools

hattrack, final decision?

UCLA.

 

[hattrack04]

cant go wrong with either schools

hattrack, final decision?

I think, UCLA......it's going to be a completly new experience for me.....somewhat scary but also awesome.....but I know that I'll be part of a great class of students willing to help out each other, and that's comforting to know.....I'm looking forward to meeting all of my future classmates!!

 

[brownbearinhair]

Cool. See you next year.