UCLA vs Princeton for premed

[Vesh]

---

Members do not see this ad.

I'm quickly learning that this is not the place to respond to questions with answers that relate to medical careers!!

I think students who fully and exclusively commit to premed activities during undergrad are robbing themselves of the opportunity to at least explore other interests. Very, very few high schoolers truly know what they want to do at 18 years old. Considering this thread is about choosing an undergrad (with the intention of going medicine) I think offering advice about life and opportunities outside of premedical education is just as paramount as wisdom about the path to medical school.

 

[22031 Alum]

I think students who fully and exclusively commit to premed activities during undergrad are robbing themselves of the opportunity to at least explore other interests. Very, very few high schoolers truly know what they want to do at 18 years old. Considering this thread is about choosing an undergrad (with the intention of going medicine) I think offering advice about life and opportunities outside of premedical education is just as paramount as wisdom about the path to medical school.

Well considering OP is the parent, not the applicant, I'd hope she's good in the "knowing about life in general" department. I would think it's a given that becoming a doctor isn't guaranteed for anyone until graduation day, and there's no need to cover every possible alternative outcome in response to specific becoming-a-doctor questions.

 

[lifetothefullest]

I'm quickly learning that this is not the place to respond to questions with answers that relate to medical careers!!

That's quoted out of context since I was responding to someone else, but I do agree with the guy above. No reason anybody should limit themselves when they enter college. College offers a lot of opportunities than you had in high school (some more than others 😉 ) and you can try something you've never tried before. Who knows? Maybe you'll find a passion for research and would rather interact with cells than people. Happens.

 

[Vesh]

Well considering OP is the parent, not the applicant, I'd hope she's good in the "knowing about life in general" department. I would think it's a given that becoming a doctor isn't guaranteed for anyone until graduation day, and there's no need to cover every possible alternative outcome in response to specific becoming-a-doctor questions.

I am simply offering my opinion, having been in virtually the exact same situation that the OP's son is in. My regret stems from having tunnel vision my senior year of high school about medicine and getting to college and realizing that I had other interests that my school didn't allow me to fully pursue. I had the same specific "becoming-a-doctor" questions, but I wish people had stressed the "opportunities outside of premed" when I was making the decision.

 

[WingedOx]

how relevant and timely... is Nate Silver reading SDN?

also, is he eating a Burrito?

 

[alpinism]

The 'Wow Factor' is multi-level and is basically driven by competitiveness / selectivity --

At the very top level are clearly HYPSM + I would add Cal Tech.
Next level, the other Ivies, U of Chicago, Duke, West Point and Naval academies and some of the other big-name private schools (Amherst, Bowdoin, Bryn Mawr, Julliard, etc.).
Next level would be the very top publics (Berkley, UNC?) and well-known private LACs. (Wash U St L, Johns Hopkins, Vanderbilt)
UCLA would be in the next tier, which is still really good--
​

Reasons (other than Wow!) why Princeton is really that much better --

• Small classes with discussion groups with (only) other brilliant students (ie. no 'lowest common denominator')
• Access to resources. If you want to study the evolution of the art of fencing during the middle ages, Princeton will find a way to support you in that effort. If you want to research ____ (absolutely anything), Princeton will have or find the resources to make that possible.
  
• Diversity. You can go to school surrounded by people who are "just like you!" or surrounded by people who aren't just like you. The latter offers a much greater opportunity for personal growth.

Is this just your own personal opinion?

2 out of the 3 "prestige" college rankings out there (US News, ARWU, QS World) put UCLA in the top 25 of colleges worldwide (US News 23, ARWU 12, QS world 37) on the same level as places like Emory, Northwestern, and Duke and above ivies like Brown and Dartmouth.

I've also never heard anyone refer to Hopkins, Vanderbilt, and WashU as LACs (usually called private research universities).

IMO UCLA is one of the best "state schools" out there (along with UCB, UCSD, Michigan, Washington, Wisconsin, UNC, UVA)

 

[WingedOx]

Is this just your own personal opinion?

2 out of the 3 "prestige" college rankings out there (US News, ARWU, QS World) put UCLA in the top 25 of colleges worldwide (US News 23, ARWU 12, QS world 37) on the same level as places like Emory, Northwestern, and Duke and above ivies like Brown and Dartmouth.

I've also never heard anyone refer to Hopkins, Vanderbilt, and WashU as LACs (usually called private research universities).

IMO UCLA is one of the best "state schools" out there (along with UCB, UCSD, Michigan, Washington, Wisconsin, UNC, UVA)

FWIW, a school needs to be evaluated based on "what will your undergraduate experience be?". Overarching things like a school's worldwide prestige matter little if you aren't getting access to a university's resources as a 19 year old kid studying organic chemistry.

/which is one of the reasons I'm a proponent of smaller schools, independent of the "prestige factor"

 

[Finches]

Even among ivies, Princeton is renowned for its focus on undergraduate education (read: no professional schools). Classes are small, and undergraduate advising is incredible. My skepticism of USNews would probably match that of a med student attending an "RNP" school, but Princeton's #1 rank is something I'd agree with.

I'd tell my son to go to Princeton. That work study amount is not bad at all, and your son will find that a lot of his classmates will work (even if they are not required to) to earn extra spending cash for themselves. Undergraduate jobs through the college tend to pay very well, especially if you become a research assistant under a professor (very common at Princeton). And if he wants, he can work Princeton's prestige to net some scholarships, grants, and free cash floating out there for smart college students. These methods worked very well for me in college.

 

[DokterMom]

Is this just your own personal opinion?

2 out of the 3 "prestige" college rankings out there (US News, ARWU, QS World) put UCLA in the top 25 of colleges worldwide (US News 23, ARWU 12, QS world 37) on the same level as places like Emory, Northwestern, and Duke and above ivies like Brown and Dartmouth.

I've also never heard anyone refer to Hopkins, Vanderbilt, and WashU as LACs (usually called private research universities).

IMO UCLA is one of the best "state schools" out there (along with UCB, UCSD, Michigan, Washington, Wisconsin, UNC, UVA)

It's absolutely just my own personal opinion -- and 'off the top of my head' for that matter. And by listing some specific schools, I was merely trying to illustrate the type of school I personally would put in each tier; my list was by no means exhaustive!

I can see how my original wording implied that I considered Hopkins, Vandy and WashU as LACs -- I certainly don't! Poor word choice on my part, which I've just gone back to clarify.

Since we're talking opinions, mine is that I disagree with USN's categorization of UCLA as one of the top 25 universities worldwide. They have their criteria; I have mine. Don't they also put Georgia Tech way up there? I'm guessing it has something to do with the number of programs, research funding or the like. On measures of "reputation" (which is closely aligned with prestige or 'the WOW factor', I'd suspect they score much lower.

Depending on how many state schools you have in your top tier (5, 10, 20, 30) -- then UCLA might be in the top tier.

 

[SympatricSpeciation]

@Still-Learning Ignoring the tangential subplots exhibited in this thread, I would like to venture that Princeton is an opportunity one cannot pass up. UCLA is an amazing school and, as others have said, it might even be the more rational choice if your son is truly set on medical school. However, given that:

1. The difference in aid is essentially negligible.
2. The undergraduate experience (i.e. intellectual stimulation and cultivation of impeccable work ethic by virtue of interacting and competing with the brightest, connections with classmates and professors by virtue of small classes, etc.) at Princeton is paralleled by very, very few institutions in the US (UCLA not being one of them).
3. The greater number of open doors should your son diverge from the premed track.

I say Princeton all day, erryday! College is about more than a vocational pursuit!

 

[efle]

They have their criteria; I have mine. On measures of "reputation" (which is closely aligned with prestige or 'the WOW factor', I'd suspect they score much lower.

Depending on how many state schools you have in your top tier (5, 10, 20, 30) -- then UCLA might be in the top tier.

What are your criteria?

I'd be curious to hear even 5 state schools superior to UCLA in student scores or reputation

 

[lifetothefullest]

I'd be curious to hear even 5 state schools superior to UCLA in student scores or reputation

Would you consider any of the service academies? I'd say USMA, USNA, and USAFA are pretty reputable and well-known. Also pretty selective in terms of public universities. Add UVA and UC Berkeley onto that and you've got five. (I don't care much for US News rankings myself).

 

[efle]

Would you consider any of the service academies? I'd say USMA, USNA, and USAFA are pretty reputable and well-known. Also pretty selective in terms of public universities. Add UVA and UC Berkeley onto that and you've got five. (I don't care much for US News rankings myself).

I wouldn't, the military academies are a totally separate animal which appeals to a very narrow slice of high schoolers. I mean among regular ol universities, where I'd say Cal is the only superior with UNC as an equal. I don't have a great opinion of the UC's but I recognize that they've got two of the very best public uni student bodies

Everyone cares about US News ranks, just the more informed care about it by proxy of its effect on the less informed

 

[Mad Jack]

Princeton.

 

[WedgeDawg]

I wouldn't, the military academies are a totally separate animal which appeals to a very narrow slice of high schoolers. I mean among regular ol universities, where I'd say Cal is the only superior with UNC as an equal. I don't have a great opinion of the UC's but I recognize that they've got two of the very best public uni student bodies

Everyone cares about US News ranks, just the more informed care about it by proxy of its effect on the less informed

Berkeley, UVA, perhaps William and Mary and GTech (that's public right?). UNC and Michigan are probably on par. I think the top three would be (in order) Berkeley, UVA, UCLA.

 

[oopsaloo]

Look, I get why everyone is advocating so strongly for Princeton. I have friends who attend Princeton and other HYPSM schools, but let me tell you - things aren't always as glamorous as they seem on the outside. Yes, Princeton is a really cool chance. But I think here's how you really need to make the decision.

• Visit both schools. MOST important thing. Here's some solid advice for your kid: Don't just go there, look at the campus tours, eat free food, meet some people, have fun and walk away. Get a real sense of the vibe - are students like him, does your kid see himself growing up and living there, is he able to identify opportunities that interest him (you dont really need to worry much about all opportunities). For your impression when you visit, try to ignore the prestige factor and just look at the universities as a school - where you want to be able to learn academically, have opportunities for research, etc. Then consider it as a place for living - do you like the dorm accommodations, are you okay with the meals - actually taste the food and stuff. What's the culture like? Is it downright competitive? Is it collaborative? Do they put down certain majors? Are there stereotypes? Perceived racism, sexism, etc. Crime rate in the city. Factors like these - often times, people dont think twice about these things, but once they experience them first hand, have regrets. From my visit to Princeton's campus, I got the impression that most students were preppy - and not just in the stereotypical sense, but literally up to date with the latest fashions, sheltered, etc. The area around campus is expensive - groceries and shopping and all that will definitely be much more expensive, 'cause Princeton has many students who come from financially well-off families. Also, think about what kind of focus and culture you want - Princeton is very much a liberal arts environment, in my opinion. Ask your son: could he see himself doing research in a particular field? Is there enough scope and breadth of research going on at each school in these fields? I still think Princeton is a pretty neat place, but make sure you're not deluding yourself into thinking everything is perfect there. Ask these questions to yourself when visiting UCLA too. And then compare responses.
• Talk to current students. Ask them what they like, what they dont like, what theyd do all over again, what they would change. Find out the real situation at these schools - the stuff behind the glossy brochures and staged pictures on websites.
• Based on these, try to gauge where your son thinks he can thrive the most - first, prestige aside, then factoring in added bonus of prestige. If the answer comes out to be Princeton, then your family should be very settled with the decision. If the answer in terms of fit comes out to be UCLA, then I'd highly suggest this over Princeton.
• Know that whatever your son chooses, he will likely succeed. From your posts, it sounds like your son is the type of person to succeed wherever he goes. Sure, things might not be so straightforward at one place than another, but i bet ur son could use that as a chance to grow up and discover how to seek opportunities for himself. Both at the end of the day are fantastic schools. In terms of GPA, I do believe UCLA would be easier to succeed in terms of having a higher GPA than Princeton.
• Also, after assessing these things, take a look at financials. Where your son seems to find a better fit: can you afford it? What strategy do you need to do to proceed? If it's UCLA, that should be a no-brainer. I'm personally think that undergrad is not worth incurring huge debt for - better save the money for med school cause at the end of the day, if thats where he's gonna end up, then the name and prestige of the med school >> name and prestige of undergrad. Not only that, but if he doesnt do well academically and his GPA takes a hit, even at a harder undergrad, he will get screened out and/or it will impact him negatively in terms of med schools. There was a thread about a 3.4 from Harvard earlier - and she wanted to apply to too many reach schools. many commenters were not optimistic about her chances of getting in there. so, GPA is very important, arguably much more important than the location of the undergrad (at least initially, from what i've read on SDN).

tl;dr - don't take things at face value. dig deeper when you visit the school. you're son's impressions should be the most important factor in this decision.

 

[ridethecliche]

This thread assumes that the OP's son will actually remain interested in pursuing medicine.

If cost is about equal, then going to princeton is a no brainer. Sure they won't be different for pre-med purposes, but that makes a ton of assumptions about the OP's child and their interests.

Absolute no brainer.

I think students who fully and exclusively commit to premed activities during undergrad are robbing themselves of the opportunity to at least explore other interests. Very, very few high schoolers truly know what they want to do at 18 years old. Considering this thread is about choosing an undergrad (with the intention of going medicine) I think offering advice about life and opportunities outside of premedical education is just as paramount as wisdom about the path to medical school.

You know, it is possible to have a life outside class AND engage in pre-med activities through college. Doing so also doesn't preclude one from taking a gap year.

 

[WingedOx]

You know, it is possible to have a life outside class AND engage in pre-med activities through college. Doing so also doesn't preclude one from taking a gap year.

And yet there are plenty of pre-meds (and beyond) who were totally incapable of doing so... and they tend to have the opinion that no one else could/should either.

 

[Still-Learning]

Thank you all for being so helpful!
Although I'm a slow reader, I read most of the advises twice.

 

[GreatAdviceForPass]

Would you consider any of the service academies? I'd say USMA, USNA, and USAFA are pretty reputable and well-known. Also pretty selective in terms of public universities. Add UVA and UC Berkeley onto that and you've got five. (I don't care much for US News rankings myself).

If you want to attend USMA, you better love running and lifting weights. As an army officer, ~50% of the eval is usually based on that damn APFT score. If you suck at push-ups, running 2 miles, sit-ups and marching with 80 lb ruck for 12 miles, this place is definitely not for you. Also, you better be ready to go to war and face numerous deployments - be away from your family and wife and kids for like half of your military payback or career. I know A TON of USMA grads personally, and most of the times, this is their way of life. Stop treating military like some boy-scout candy land. Just warning you or others interested in the military, before regretting and becoming mentally crazy - there is a reason so many veterans go cookoo.

 

[neur0goddess]

hypothetically speaking, if this student was 100% sure that they wanted to go into medicine, would you guys say that UCLA be a total no-brainer? (assuming that the cost of attending Princeton would be more financially burdening than that of UCLA)

 

[lifetothefullest]

If you want to attend USMA, you better love running and lifting weights. As an army officer, ~50% of the eval is usually based on that damn APFT score. If you suck at push-ups, running 2 miles, sit-ups and marching with 80 lb ruck for 12 miles, this place is definitely not for you. Also, you better be ready to go to war and face numerous deployments - be away from your family and wife and kids for like half of your military payback or career. I know A TON of USMA grads personally, and most of the times, this is their way of life. Stop treating military like some boy-scout candy land. Just warning you or others interested in the military, before regretting and becoming mentally crazy - there is a reason so many veterans go cookoo.

At one point, I was actually considering going to USAFA. I have friends at USMA and USNA as well and I know that it's no cakewalk. But those are great schools in terms of education and also in terms of the graduates they produce. The military lifestyle may not be for me but I'd say ~20% of my childhood friends either enlisted or are at service academies. I'm still considering Health Professions Scholarship, though I am hesitant from stories I've heard (you wouldn't happen to know about that would you?). Specifically, I want to pursue a specialty of my choosing (and not have to do routine gall bladder removals as a cardiovascular surgeon, for instance) and I don't know if the military is conducive to that.

Oh, and I shouldn't have a problem passing the physical requirements. I was a four-year varsity athlete in high school and have kept in shape.

 

[WedgeDawg]

hypothetically speaking, if this student was 100% sure that they wanted to go into medicine, would you guys say that UCLA be a total no-brainer? (assuming that the cost of attending Princeton would be more financially burdening than that of UCLA)

Absolutely not. There are too many factors that play into this. A student attending Princeton and who manages to do will will be much better positioned for acceptances to top schools than a UCLA graduate with a similar GPA. After a certain MCAT, the effect appears to diminish somewhat, but Princeton will put you on much better footing with respect to top schools than UCLA will. On the other hand, if the student has the ambition, work ethic, and smarts necessary to make it to medical school and their goal is just to go to any medical school, then UCLA would possibly be a better option than Princeton, assuming Princeton has a significantly higher debt burden. In either case, if the debt burden was equal (or if Princeton was cheaper), I would still say go Princeton.

 

[neur0goddess]

Absolutely not. There are too many factors that play into this. A student attending Princeton and who manages to do will will be much better positioned for acceptances to top schools than a UCLA graduate with a similar GPA. After a certain MCAT, the effect appears to diminish somewhat, but Princeton will put you on much better footing with respect to top schools than UCLA will. On the other hand, if the student has the ambition, work ethic, and smarts necessary to make it to medical school and their goal is just to go to any medical school, then UCLA would possibly be a better option than Princeton, assuming Princeton has a significantly higher debt burden. In either case, if the debt burden was equal (or if Princeton was cheaper), I would still say go Princeton.

UCLA is still a top 25 school though, and one of the best publics in the nation. It has national and international name recognition just like Princeton; would a UCLA student really be at a disadvantage when compared to a HYPSM student with similar-ish stats and ECs?

Assuming that stats/ECs/LORs/whatever are comparable, would a UCLA student receive a slight bump when juxtaposed with a student from an Ivy that's known for grade inflation? (HYS, etc.) I know that this wouldn't be possible to empircally prove, but couldn't an adcom member assume that the UCLA student worked harder than the HYS kid because they had to fight against deflation, network like crazy to get research positions that were handed to the HYS kid, etc.? Not trying to bash anyone, just trying to get some insight into the process.

 

[WedgeDawg]

UCLA is still a top 25 school though, and one of the best publics in the nation. It has national and international name recognition just like Princeton; would a UCLA student really be at a disadvantage when compared to a HYPSM student with similar-ish stats and ECs?

Assuming that stats/ECs/LORs/whatever are comparable, would a UCLA student receive a slight bump when juxtaposed with a student from an Ivy that's known for grade inflation? (HYS, etc.) I know that this wouldn't be possible to empircally prove, but couldn't an adcom member assume that the UCLA student worked harder than the HYS kid because they had to fight against deflation, network like crazy to get research positions that were handed to the HYS kid, etc.? Not trying to bash anyone, just trying to get some insight into the process.

Short answer is no.

Long answer is that as good of a school as UCLA is, it's a lot (a LOT) easier to get into than Princeton. You already have a ridiculous level of pre-validation from a 3.9/36 Princeton student who managed to not only get into one of the most selective schools in the world, but also excel there. With UCLA you don't have that level of pre-validation. As many have said, candidates are not compared directly against one another and everything else is never equal. If you look purely at the statistics, UCLA has <900 people applying to medical school each year, but only 13 of their graduating seniors have both a 3.9+ and a 35+ (all 13 got in to med school); they have an overall acceptance rate of 53% to med school. Princeton has 85%+ get into medical school and 1/3 of those go to top 10 schools. Take these metrics with a huge grain of salt, but I think they reveal at least something about the relative competitiveness of students from these two schools. I'm sure a stellar applicant from UCLA would do very very well, but overall I think Princeton wins. I would rather be an average applicant from Princeton (or Harvard or Yale) than an average one from UCLA.

 

[NeuResurgens]

Congrats to your son on those acceptances! It sounds like UCLA will be the better choice here. Cheaper for him and his family, and is a high-caliber institution which will afford him great opportunities as a pre-med. If he is in the top 1.5%, that sounds like a good recipe for a high GPA and a strong medical school application down the road.

 

[neur0goddess]

Short answer is no.

Long answer is that as good of a school as UCLA is, it's a lot (a LOT) easier to get into than Princeton. You already have a ridiculous level of pre-validation from a 3.9/36 Princeton student who managed to not only get into one of the most selective schools in the world, but also excel there. With UCLA you don't have that level of pre-validation. As many have said, candidates are not compared directly against one another and everything else is never equal. If you look purely at the statistics, UCLA has <900 people applying to medical school each year, but only 13 of their graduating seniors have both a 3.9+ and a 35+ (all 13 got in to med school); they have an overall acceptance rate of 53% to med school. Princeton has 85%+ get into medical school and 1/3 of those go to top 10 schools. Take these metrics with a huge grain of salt, but I think they reveal at least something about the relative competitiveness of students from these two schools. I'm sure a stellar applicant from UCLA would do very very well, but overall I think Princeton wins. I would rather be an average applicant from Princeton (or Harvard or Yale) than an average one from UCLA.

I see what you're saying, but to get into a school like Princeton, obviously a student would have needed to excel tremendously in high school, and not everyone has such a high level of motivation as a 13/14/15 year old HS freshman. It seems a bit unfair that their high school performance would have an impact on them so much later in the game, and adcoms aren't concerned with SAT/ACT scores and GPA from high school, so why would their choice of undergrad institution be of any importance, even if just at the tippy top med schools? I've seen hundreds of threads where SDN members evangelize that undergrad doesn't matter, but it seems like it actually matters a lot. Why is there so much misinformation floating around?

 

[WedgeDawg]

I see what you're saying, but to get into a school like Princeton, obviously a student would have needed to excel tremendously in high school, and not everyone has such a high level of motivation as a 13/14/15 year old HS freshman. It seems a bit unfair that their high school performance would have an impact on them so much later in the game, and adcoms aren't concerned with SAT/ACT scores and GPA from high school, so why would their choice of undergrad institution be of any importance, even if just at the tippy top med schools? I've seen hundreds of threads where SDN members evangelize that undergrad doesn't matter, but it seems like it actually matters a lot. Why is there so much misinformation floating around?

I'm not sure, but if you go into the allo or resident forums you'll see that pedigree is definitely taken into account.

 

[GreatAdviceForPass]

I'm not sure, but if you go into the allo or resident forums you'll see that pedigree is definitely taken into account.

Undergrad means nothing for residency. Where you went to medical school probably matters. Also, your board exam scores weigh much more than where you went to med school. Barely passing step 1 at Harvard or JHU is not good as getting 250 at Mississippi State.

 

[lifetothefullest]

I see what you're saying, but to get into a school like Princeton, obviously a student would have needed to excel tremendously in high school, and not everyone has such a high level of motivation as a 13/14/15 year old HS freshman. It seems a bit unfair that their high school performance would have an impact on them so much later in the game, and adcoms aren't concerned with SAT/ACT scores and GPA from high school, so why would their choice of undergrad institution be of any importance, even if just at the tippy top med schools? I've seen hundreds of threads where SDN members evangelize that undergrad doesn't matter, but it seems like it actually matters a lot. Why is there so much misinformation floating around?

It really only matters "a lot" at top medical schools. Otherwise, it really doesn't matter that much. This is just, like you're saying, a culture of rewarding high achievers who started high achieving at a young age (i.e. freshman year of high school). Like I've said before, what a lot of people tend to do is to look at other people and ask what they themselves do not have rather than just focus on themselves and make the most out of what they've got. Just because you didn't have it together early in high school and didn't get into a prestigious university doesn't mean that your chances at top medical programs are shot. What it means is that you'll have to work harder and it'll be just a bit harder to get into the top medical programs. Which is fair in my mind because some people were very motivated early in high school and got a head start on you. You just have to make up the distance.

But keep in mind the boost from going to a top school for top medical school admissions is still not that big, meaning that if you bust your ass, maintain a 4.0, 35 MCAT, etc. you're still going to be seen as very competitive.

 

[neur0goddess]

It really only matters "a lot" at top medical schools. Otherwise, it really doesn't matter that much. This is just, like you're saying, a culture of rewarding high achievers who started high achieving at a young age (i.e. freshman year of high school). Like I've said before, what a lot of people tend to do is to look at other people and ask what they themselves do not have rather than just focus on themselves and make the most out of what they've got. Just because you didn't have it together early in high school and didn't get into a prestigious university doesn't mean that your chances at top medical programs are shot. What it means is that you'll have to work harder and it'll be just a bit harder to get into the top medical programs. Which is fair in my mind because some people were very motivated early in high school and got a head start on you. You just have to make up the distance.

But keep in mind the boost from going to a top school for top medical school admissions is still not that big, meaning that if you bust your ass, maintain a 4.0, 35 MCAT, etc. you're still going to be seen as very competitive.

I'm referring to UCLA though, not a school that isn't a "prestigious university". Is the elitism in adcoms so rampant that they'd prefer an applicant from a top 5 school over one from a top 25? Obviously Harvard > Chico State, but what about Harvard vs. Vandy, Cornell, USC? Do they REALLY give a ****?

 

[WedgeDawg]

Undergrad means nothing for residency. Where you went to medical school probably matters. Also, your board exam scores weigh much more than where you went to med school. Barely passing step 1 at Harvard or JHU is not good as getting 250 at Mississippi State.

Sorry I think I was unclear - I meant that prestige matters in general, but it's generally only the step before. Undergrad matters for med school, med school matters for residency, and residency matters for fellowship/job. Also agree with @lifetothefullest above.

 

[WedgeDawg]

I'm referring to UCLA though, not a school that isn't a "prestigious university". Is the elitism in adcoms so rampant that they'd prefer an applicant from a top 5 school over one from a top 25? Obviously Harvard > Chico State, but what about Harvard vs. Vandy, Cornell, USC? Do they REALLY give a ****?

It's not the ranking so much as the name. You see a lot of kids from Ivy league undergrad going to Ivy league med schools. You see a lot of schools trying to take Ivy league kids for whatever reason. In California you see the same thing with Stanford kids. If you look at where Ivies place their students for med school and what the success rates are, and then compare this to places like UVA and UCLA, you'll find that the Ivy kids are more successful and get into better schools in general. Whether this effect is causative or merely correlative is up for debate.

 

[neur0goddess]

It's not the ranking so much as the name. You see a lot of kids from Ivy league undergrad going to Ivy league med schools. You see a lot of schools trying to take Ivy league kids for whatever reason. In California you see the same thing with Stanford kids. If you look at where Ivies place their students for med school and what the success rates are, and then compare this to places like UVA and UCLA, you'll find that the Ivy kids are more successful and get into better schools in general. Whether this effect is causative or merely correlative is up for debate.

Probably a solid mix of both. I thought medicine was different than law/bizz in that it was a total meritocracy, but I guess nothing in life truly is

 

[allantois]

Sorry I think I was unclear - I meant that prestige matters in general, but it's generally only the step before. Undergrad matters for med school, med school matters for residency, and residency matters for fellowship/job. Also agree with @lifetothefullest above.

Forgot to add: high school matters for ugrad.

 

[allantois]

I see what you're saying, but to get into a school like Princeton, obviously a student would have needed to excel tremendously in high school, and not everyone has such a high level of motivation as a 13/14/15 year old HS freshman. It seems a bit unfair that their high school performance would have an impact on them so much later in the game, and adcoms aren't concerned with SAT/ACT scores and GPA from high school, so why would their choice of undergrad institution be of any importance, even if just at the tippy top med schools? I've seen hundreds of threads where SDN members evangelize that undergrad doesn't matter, but it seems like it actually matters a lot. Why is there so much misinformation floating around?

In most countries if you aren't a good student in high school, and really before then as well, you are pretty much screwed as far as academics goes.

I fell behind on a few subjects back in middle school abroad, but was luckily able to reinvent myself in high school here.

 

[lifetothefullest]

I'm referring to UCLA though, not a school that isn't a "prestigious university". Is the elitism in adcoms so rampant that they'd prefer an applicant from a top 5 school over one from a top 25? Obviously Harvard > Chico State, but what about Harvard vs. Vandy, Cornell, USC? Do they REALLY give a ****?

I'm only referring to top medical schools. Certain schools are feeders for top medical schools - Sinai seems to accept a lot of HYPSM kids, for example. I don't know why the pedigree matters for top medical schools, only that it does.

Probably a solid mix of both. I thought medicine was different than law/bizz in that it was a total meritocracy, but I guess nothing in life truly is

Nothing in life is a true meritocracy. Somebody who you feel is "less deserving" than you will always get in over you somewhere. Maybe their daddy knew someone. Maybe they know someone who knows someone who puts in a good word for them. Medicine, like business and law, is about whether a school, a hospital, a firm can stake their reputation on you. And they're far more likely to stake their reputation on someone with good "pedigree" whether that be undergrad school, outstanding LORs from somebody they know, or a good word from a trusted individual. That's how the world operates.

 

[justadream]

I see what you're saying, but to get into a school like Princeton, obviously a student would have needed to excel tremendously in high school, and not everyone has such a high level of motivation as a 13/14/15 year old HS freshman. It seems a bit unfair that their high school performance would have an impact on them so much later in the game, and adcoms aren't concerned with SAT/ACT scores and GPA from high school, so why would their choice of undergrad institution be of any importance, even if just at the tippy top med schools? I've seen hundreds of threads where SDN members evangelize that undergrad doesn't matter, but it seems like it actually matters a lot. Why is there so much misinformation floating around?

I think it's more unfair if past history (e.g., HS performance) wasn't indirectly taken into account. Your past experiences matter in the real world and for a med applicant, HS is really not that far back.

If you have a long history of high performance, that's always going to be better than a short history of high performance. If you were not motivated in HS, well then your chance of being motivated now (and in the future) is less than if you have always been motivated.

For example, let's say your life depends on someone's performance on a math test.

Would you rather have:

Person A : Aced all math tests from Kindergarten to College
Person B: Did average in math until College, then began acing

Person A has a longer history of high performance. Therefore, the chance that person A is "fluking" is lower.

 

[neur0goddess]

I think it's more unfair if past history (e.g., HS performance) wasn't indirectly taken into account. Your past experiences matter in the real world and for a med applicant, HS is really not that far back.

If you have a long history of high performance, that's always going to be better than a short history of high performance. If you were not motivated in HS, well then your chance of being motivated now (and in the future) is less than if you have always been motivated.

For example, let's say your life depends on someone's performance on a math test.

Would you rather have:

Person A : Aced all math tests from Kindergarten to College
Person B: Did average in math until College, then began acing

Person A has a longer history of high performance. Therefore, the chance that person A is "fluking" is lower.

If your high school CV mattered at all, I'm sure med schools would ask for transcripts and score reports. Clearly, they don't, so I think we can assume they don't care. As you can probably deduce, I didn't take academics seriously in the beginning of high school, and it's starting to come back to haunt me as I begin my college search. What happened has happened and there's nothing I can do to change my past grades; all I can do is put my nose to the grindstone and hope my hard work pays off. You're right that Person A will have the advantage, but I'd assume that adcoms would at least respect "reinvented" applicants with steep upward trends. Us Americans love a good underdog story 😉 And I would argue that someone who has always been motivated would be at a higher risk for burn out. I'm sure you've heard the stories of overacheiving high school students flunking in undergrad, where they're no longer under their parents' watchful eyes and become tempted by parties or whatever. I'd like to think college is a blank slate.

 

[lifetothefullest]

What happened has happened and there's nothing I can do to change my past grades; all I can do is put my nose to the grindstone and hope my hard work pays off. You're right that Person A will have the advantage, but I'd assume that adcoms would at least respect "reinvented" applicants with steep upward trends. Us Americans love a good underdog story 😉 And I would argue that someone who has always been motivated would be at a higher risk for burn out. I'm sure you've heard the stories of overacheiving high school students flunking in undergrad, where they're no longer under their parents' watchful eyes and become tempted by parties or whatever. I'd like to think college is a blank slate.

That's the spirit! That's definitely the attitude for attacking this. You can't do anything about it and you can't do anything about anybody else - you can only make do with what you have. As you say yourself, college can be a blank slate in that adcoms do not see your high school grades/SAT scores. So even if you didn't do well in high school but do well in college, that's all they see. You can't do anything about the colleges you got into or where you go, but you can make sure that you're at the top wherever you are.

 

[neur0goddess]

That's the spirit! That's definitely the attitude for attacking this. You can't do anything about it and you can't do anything about anybody else - you can only make do with what you have. As you say yourself, college can be a blank slate in that adcoms do not see your high school grades/SAT scores. So even if you didn't do well in high school but do well in college, that's all they see. You can't do anything about the colleges you got into or where you go, but you can make sure that you're at the top wherever you are.

Thank you for the encouraging words! I just hope I can articulate the turnaround well in my college app essays 🙂

 

[neur0goddess]

OP, is your son leaning towards one school yet?

 

[Lawpy]

OP, is your son leaning towards one school yet?.

I think we confused and alarmed @Still-Learning with an overwhelming debate on which school is more prestigious... personally, that's not the issue here. Unless something changed in this 4-page convo, UCLA is far cheaper than Princeton, and while leaving outside the comfort zone is important, it doesn't require traveling across the continent for school. Thus, going to UCLA is the best choice that OP's son can choose. Prestige is an insignificant factor compared to cost and being close to friends and family back at home.

 

[justadream]

If your high school CV mattered at all, I'm sure med schools would ask for transcripts and score reports. Clearly, they don't, so I think we can assume they don't care. As you can probably deduce, I didn't take academics seriously in the beginning of high school, and it's starting to come back to haunt me as I begin my college search. What happened has happened and there's nothing I can do to change my past grades; all I can do is put my nose to the grindstone and hope my hard work pays off. You're right that Person A will have the advantage, but I'd assume that adcoms would at least respect "reinvented" applicants with steep upward trends. Us Americans love a good underdog story 😉 And I would argue that someone who has always been motivated would be at a higher risk for burn out. I'm sure you've heard the stories of overacheiving high school students flunking in undergrad, where they're no longer under their parents' watchful eyes and become tempted by parties or whatever. I'd like to think college is a blank slate.

That's why I said past history matters implicitly (explicit would be asking for your HS grades). But going to Princeton is a good proxy for good performance in HS. It may not be on the adcoms "official criteria" but when you see someone applying from Harvard College, adcoms (and most people) will likely implicitly be influenced by the name.

Upward trend is nice but:

Forever high performance > upward trend

Otherwise, it would be advantageous for people who were always high-performing to intentionally fail freshman year, improve sophomore year, etc...

When adcoms see sustained high performance, they are not going to just assume that that person will burn out. Yes, some people do but I'd argue that those who have sustained high performance have less chance of "burnout" than do those who lack sustained high performance (after all, those who lack it might lack it precisely because they are easily prone to burn out).

College is a semi-blank slate. Some schools have advantages for reasons like resources/prestige/connections. In addition, schools like Princeton/Harvard have prestige effects that likely help to some limited degree with admission to the very top schools. However, if you are motivated enough, you can still make it to any medical school from pretty much any college.

 

[Still-Learning]

I would like to thank everyone here for your kind advises and spend precious time writing detailed advises.
You have all been verrry helpful!
I would like to give detail information on how we reach our decision based on our limited experiences and our two college visits and the many advises received. Hopefully this will help other readers in similar situation now or in the future. Also, understand that this is just from our point of view.

To update, my son, my daughter and I visited UCLA by registering with campus tour. We could not attend Bruins Day at UCLA because it was on the same weekend that my son need to leave for Princeton Preview. We all loved UCLA! The foods- better than some restaurants. The students, and yes we talked to a lot of students, were happy, helpful and great. The campus, beautiful. We all could not stop talking about how much we loved UCLA all the way home (three hours drive). Such a happy day. My son said that he would be happy to go there. Then, again this was our first official college visit. I know a lot of high school kids went to visit colleges waaayyy earlier, it was my fault and my son said he was happy to visit after being accepted.
Then we attended Princeton Preview. My son was on a plane with six Californian students. They were all picked up by a Princeton alumni from the airport, and they were together from 6 a.m. til 8 pm. I flew there on separate plane. Students had different schedule than parents.I went on the parents tour and love the place and the people, and made more than a few friends my self, at least three of the moms were like my best friends (totally not expecting that) who shared hugs, who shared stories of our kids and concerns. Lots of parent were so happy and just could not stop smiling from ear to ear. I learned that the building would be heated up to 70F during winter, including the residential dome, that was a major concern I had.

I went to the Physics building where professors talked about so many alumni(about 1000 out of a class of 1300) came back from all over after graduation for reunion because of how much they loved the school and the people. I went to the Health Profession Advise sessions where advisers and current students answer all my questions.

So when I saw my son again he was lit up and could not stop talking about how much he loved the people there, especially his group of friends all hugged when say goodbye, exchanged phone numbers etc... He was so happy because of the people, just so modest, opened, understanding, happy, enthusiastic and ambitious.

One of SDN member here from Princeton put it like this "More ambitious student population (I have been changed so much for the better just by being around super incredible people. I can confidently say that the caliber of the average Princeton student is higher than at UCLA)."And after both college visits I totally agree with him.
I talked to many Princeton students and I loved the way they responded, more details and really made sure I got my answer.

A few days later, we received a mail, Princeton increase financial aid for my son!
So yes, my son will don orange and black and become a tiger!

Thank you all again for reaching out when we really need it.

Best,
Still-Learning

 

[WedgeDawg]

I would like to thank everyone here for your kind advises and spend precious time writing detailed advises.
You have all been verrry helpful!
I would like to give detail information on how we reach our decision based on our limited experiences and our two college visits and the many advises received. Hopefully this will help other readers in similar situation now or in the future. Also, understand that this is just from our point of view.

To update, my son, my daughter and I visited UCLA by registering with campus tour. We could not attend Bruins Day at UCLA because it was on the same weekend that my son need to leave for Princeton Preview. We all loved UCLA! The foods- better than some restaurants. The students, and yes we talked to a lot of students, were happy, helpful and great. The campus, beautiful. We all could not stop talking about how much we loved UCLA all the way home (three hours drive). Such a happy day. My son said that he would be happy to go there. Then, again this was our first official college visit. I know a lot of high school kids went to visit colleges waaayyy earlier, it was my fault and my son said he was happy to visit after being accepted.
Then we attended Princeton Preview. My son was on a plane with six Californian students. They were all picked up by a Princeton alumni from the airport, and they were together from 6 a.m. til 8 pm. I flew there on separate plane. Students had different schedule than parents.I went on the parents tour and love the place and the people, and made more than a few friends my self, at least three of the moms were like my best friends (totally not expecting that) who shared hugs, who shared stories of our kids and concerns. Lots of parent were so happy and just could not stop smiling from ear to ear. I learned that the building would be heated up to 70F during winter, including the residential dome, that was a major concern I had.

I went to the Physics building where professors talked about so many alumni(about 1000 out of a class of 1300) came back from all over after graduation for reunion because of how much they loved the school and the people. I went to the Health Profession Advise sessions where advisers and current students answer all my questions.

So when I saw my son again he was lit up and could not stop talking about how much he loved the people there, especially his group of friends all hugged when say goodbye, exchanged phone numbers etc... He was so happy because of the people, just so modest, opened, understanding, happy, enthusiastic and ambitious.

One of SDN member here from Princeton put it like this "More ambitious student population (I have been changed so much for the better just by being around super incredible people. I can confidently say that the caliber of the average Princeton student is higher than at UCLA)."And after both college visits I totally agree with him.
I talked to many Princeton students and I loved the way they responded, more details and really made sure I got my answer.

A few days later, we received a mail, Princeton increase financial aid for my son!
So yes, my son will don orange and black and become a tiger!

Thank you all again for reaching out when we really need it.

Best,
Still-Learning

Congratulations to your son and to you as well! This is an enormous decision and I think both of you took a very rational and well-measured approach to making it. I wish him only the best over his next four years at Princeton.

 

[Still-Learning]

Congratulations to your son and to you as well! This is an enormous decision and I think both of you took a very rational and well-measured approach to making it. I wish him only the best over his next four years at Princeton.

Thank you WedgeDawg, you are very kind.

And, you are doing incredibly well!
By the way, I think your WedgeDawg's Applicant Rating System is going to be veerrry popular! Actually, it is already popular! Congratulations to you! WOW!