UCSF dropped AOA, would other schools follow?

[ihaveagf]

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UCSF dropped AOA this week, would other schools follow suit?
Is it true that AOA discriminates against URM medical students?
Does AOA affect residency application at all?

 

[Goro]

UCSF dropped AOA this week, would other schools follow suit?
Is it true that AOA discriminates against URM medical students?
Does AOA affect residency application at all?

Unknown
Yes
Yes

 

[TheIllusionist]

only top schools will drop it. Lower tiers need it to signal to top programs which applicants are the best. top tiers are all assumed to be good anyway

 

[rosegoldkitten]

To anyone who reads this and knows: any idea where I can go to learn more against AOA discrimination for URMs from good sources??

 

[datboi_58]

To anyone who reads this and knows: any idea where I can go to learn more against AOA discrimination for URMs from good sources??

I’m curious as well. Also, curious as to whether is AOA is discriminatory towards URM or is primarily pro-white and exactly how if this is the case.

 

[deleted688779]

I’m curious as well. Also, curious as to whether is AOA is discriminatory towards URM or is primarily pro-white and exactly how if this is the case.

Racial Disparities in Medical Student Alpha Omega Alpha Membership

This study examines the association between medical student race/ethnicity and induction into the Alpha Omega Alpha honor society.

jamanetwork.com

That is one article I can find that includes Asian Americans in the category of “minorities” or “people of color”. It also controls for Step 1 scores and other factors.

However, you may find arguments on the Internet that make the issue into an URM/ORM debate, which I often find little to do with whites.

 

[datboi_58]

Racial Disparities in Medical Student Alpha Omega Alpha Membership

This study examines the association between medical student race/ethnicity and induction into the Alpha Omega Alpha honor society.

jamanetwork.com

That is one article I can find that includes Asian Americans in the category of “minorities” or “people of color”. It also controls for Step 1 scores and other factors.

However, you may find arguments on the Internet that make the issue into an URM/ORM debate, which I often find little to do with whites.

I can see how it can turn into an URM / ORM debate and that debate has its place and factors that ought to be considered. I was just curious because one of my hypotheses for why the disparity exists is due to the subjective nature of AOA election. We connect to people who are similar to us and while race isn’t everything, it certainly plays a role so it would make sense that the AOA committee (who I would assume is white-majority at many schools) would elect more white inductees. At the end of the day though, I don’t know anything about any of this but I wanted to indulge my thoughts. I’ve been thinking about it more because I’m not URM but I’m also not white and I work in what I would call a very white environment. I love my co-workers and as far as I can tell, I’ve done awesome work and they’re happy with my work. But there is a limitation we reach on connecting at a social level due to cultural differences and I can see how I would maybe get more opportunities if we were interested in similar things and connected better.

 

[ihaveagf]

Interesting
If top school medical educators got rid of AOA, I would assume that their residency programs will also begin to ignore AOA status of applicants.
I can imagine some trickling down effect on lower medical schools as well

 

[indecisiveconvention]

UCSF dropped AOA this week, would other schools follow suit?
Is it true that AOA discriminates against URM medical students?
Does AOA affect residency application at all?

Interesting - now looks like UCSF, Harvard, WashU, Yale, and Stanford have dropped AOA, with Hopkins awarding it after the Match.

 

[rosegoldkitten]

This may sound dumb, but as an incoming med student with no one really to ask, I'll ask here anyway. I'm assuming that the entire cohort in the study was eligible and desired to be AOA? If all schools were to drop AOA and now with Step P/F, won't it make it even harder for people not from top schools to match into competitive residencies.. is that not possibly a worse scenario?

 

[Yankees27]

Why don't we just do away with grading completely and then we can have a lottery instead of match, this way a subpar student with a 220 step score can become a neurosurgeon, C'mon people, really. Enough, we need to reward those that work hard, not take away because we don't want to hurt poor Johnny's feelings.

Everyone doesn't get a trophy for participation in medical school, you need to earn one!

Why drop AOA?

 

[scorpion2020]

Why don't we just do away with grading completely and then we can have a lottery instead of match, this way a subpar student with a 220 step score can become a neurosurgeon, C'mon people, really. Enough, we need to reward those that work hard, not take away because we don't want to hurt poor Johnny's feelings.

Everyone doesn't get a trophy for participation in medical school, you need to earn one!

Why drop AOA?

Probably to stop the students from portraying malignant behavior while in clerkships. But I get what you mean though.

 

[datboi_58]

Why don't we just do away with grading completely and then we can have a lottery instead of match, this way a subpar student with a 220 step score can become a neurosurgeon, C'mon people, really. Enough, we need to reward those that work hard, not take away because we don't want to hurt poor Johnny's feelings.

Everyone doesn't get a trophy for participation in medical school, you need to earn one!

Why drop AOA?

Top schools can afford to drop AOA because the students they enroll are stellar to begin with and the name and reputation of the school is good enough to help their students earn good residency spots. Why drop it? It encourages collaboration because students know they’re not being compared to each other.

As far as rewarding people who work hard goes, I completely agree with you but there’s nothing wrong with evaluating the current systems to ensure they’re doing what they were designed to do aka reward those who deserve it.

 

[hailbate]

Why don't we just do away with grading completely and then we can have a lottery instead of match, this way a subpar student with a 220 step score can become a neurosurgeon, C'mon people, really. Enough, we need to reward those that work hard, not take away because we don't want to hurt poor Johnny's feelings.

And yet poor Johnny over here has his feelings hurt cause they dropped AOA?

Those that worked hard will still be rewarded with Honors in rotations, high Step 2 scores, amongst other extracurriculars.

Everyone doesn't get a trophy for participation in medical school, you need to earn one!

I think by virtue of getting into a medical school like UCSF, you've earned a whole lot already.

 

[differentiating]

As a former UCSF student, I applaud this move. AOA was a joke in my class, mainly given if you took a year off or wanted to match a competitive residency, regardless of your actual wards performance. I had the misfortune of working with some of those on our class’s list, and outside of two individuals who were truly above and beyond, the rest I wouldn’t trust with any of my patients.

I can’t comment for honors/AOA at other schools, but UCSF’s wasn’t a reflection of actual performance, and I’m glad they’ve gotten rid of them.

 

[Yankees27]

As a former UCSF student, I applaud this move. AOA was a joke in my class, mainly given if you took a year off or wanted to match a competitive residency, regardless of your actual wards performance. I had the misfortune of working with some of those on our class’s list, and outside of two individuals who were truly above and beyond, the rest I wouldn’t trust with any of my patients.

I can’t comment for honors/AOA at other schools, but UCSF’s wasn’t a reflection of actual performance, and I’m glad they’ve gotten rid of them.

So, rather than fix it, you want to elimante it, gotcha. Sorry you didn't get AOA, but dont be sour and want to deny others that earn it!

 

[Yankees27]

And yet poor Johnny over here has his feelings hurt cause they dropped AOA?

Those that worked hard will still be rewarded with Honors in rotations, high Step 2 scores, amongst other extracurriculars.



I think by virtue of getting into a medical school like UCSF, you've earned a whole lot already.

How's that, so according to you, they should all be judged the same, C'mon man.

 

[deleted688779]

I had the misfortune of working with some of those on our class’s list, and outside of two individuals who were truly above and beyond, the rest I wouldn’t trust with any of my patients.

I don’t disagree with your argument as a whole but regarding this bit...this sounds more like a failure of the school during admissions lol

 

[hailbate]

How's that, so according to you, they should all be judged the same, C'mon man.

Lol I just told you how they would be judged differently. C'mon man.

 

[differentiating]

So, rather than fix it, you want to elimante it, gotcha. Sorry you didn't get AOA, but dont be sour and want to deny others that earn it!

They didn’t earn it. That’s my point. Med school should be more than a popularity contest.

While in school, I argued in favor of the shelves being given equal weight in grading, since you could know almost nothing about a specialty and still honor the rotation if you had the right evaluators. That would’ve helped prevent some of the gunners from sliding through. Clearly the admin felt the problem was more pervasive than that.

 

[Goro]

This may sound dumb, but as an incoming med student with no one really to ask, I'll ask here anyway. I'm assuming that the entire cohort in the study was eligible and desired to be AOA? If all schools were to drop AOA and now with Step P/F, won't it make it even harder for people not from top schools to match into competitive residencies.. is that not possibly a worse scenario?

This has been discussed to death. Step 2 will replace Step 1 as a screening tool by overworked PDs.

Evaluations, letters, networking and audition rotations will continue to be important.

 

[deleted314957]

Probably to stop the students from portraying malignant behavior while in clerkships. But I get what you mean though.

Why drop AOA? Because it is a useless and, perhaps even,
does harm. And besides, 20 years into practice absolutely no one will know or care if you got into a medical frat. I have NEVER known the AOA status of ANY of my colleagues. And I was at it for a long time. If you need your trophies you will have a hard residency.


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[Yankees27]

Why drop AOA? Because it is a useless and, perhaps even,
does harm. And besides, 20 years into practice absolutely no one will know or care if you got into a medical frat. I have NEVER known the AOA status of ANY of my colleagues. And I was at it for a long time. If you need your trophies you will have a hard residency.


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You missed the whole point, wow!...BTW, nothing to do with needing a trophy, you need to take a look at the post again, you obviously did not comprehend it.

 

[deleted314957]

You missed the whole point, wow!...BTW, nothing to do with needing a trophy, you need to take a look at the post again, you obviously did not comprehend it.

Oh no, I comprehended it. It is a useless organization, harms students more than helps imho and should be abolished. I couldn’t care less about ( having a TROPHY from) AOA and residency admission.


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[Goro]

BTW, here's what the people who really count have to say about AOA.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NRMP-2018-Program-Director-Survey-for-WWW.pdf

Look at page 6. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of AOA as being important to PDs.

 

[Skittsie13]

I was recently elected to AOA at my school. Very anecdotal and the n is small, but my school is about 40% Asian (South and East combined), 30% Caucasian, 30% URM. Our junior AOA cohort was 40% Asian... and 60% Caucasian. Not one URM. Our application process is blinded, but I would definitely not be surprised if clerkship evaluations, which make up the majority of our clinical grades (which is the majority of our AOA selection criteria), are at least somewhat racially biased.

 

[Yankees27]

BTW, here's what the people who really count have to say about AOA.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NRMP-2018-Program-Director-Survey-for-WWW.pdf

Look at page 6. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of AOA as being important to PDs.

Oh no, I comprehended it. It is a useless organization, harms students more than helps imho and should be abolished. I couldn’t care less about ( having a TROPHY from) AOA and residency admission.


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You seem pretty upset , must have hit a sore spot.

 

[Yankees27]

I see there is a few in the minority here, but hey, everyone has a right to their opinion. Take away AOA, use a P/F on step 1, get rid of CS and we can then just make everyone happy by saying all students are equal and we can tell program directors to close their eyes and select your residents....SMH

 

[Yankees27]

BTW, here's what the people who really count have to say about AOA.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NRMP-2018-Program-Director-Survey-for-WWW.pdf

Look at page 6. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of AOA as being important to PDs.

Now you are stretching it, but ok, if you say so.

 

[DrStephennmnm]

You seem pretty upset , must have hit a sore spot.

Actually he doesn't seem upset at all, he was just rewriting word for word what you overlooked. On the contrary, it appears as if you are the one upset. Did you work hard to get into AOA and are now just realising it may have been for naught?

 

[Yankees27]

Actually he doesn't seem upset at all, he was just rewriting word for word what you overlooked. On the contrary, it appears as if you are the one upset. Did you work hard to get into AOA and are now just realising it may have been for naught?

Nah brah, I'm good, but hey, I didn't know you were a mind reader and know that he's not upset.

 

[deleted314957]

BTW, here's what the people who really count have to say about AOA.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NRMP-2018-Program-Director-Survey-for-WWW.pdf

Look at page 6. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of AOA as being important to PDs.

That is an interesting and revealing reference. Thank you.
I would like to point out to all the aspiring physicians one of the metrics which is very easily overlooked after you have spent your life in cut-throat academic competition and filling in all the check boxes for med school admission.
This observation further reinforces an adage i have repeated to medical students and young doctors over the past many years; and, that little adage is “affability, availability and ability” being core necessities for success in medicine. Please, please, please note the first one.Programs and hiring groups REALLY like nice, easy to get along with folks. No prima donnas, no egos, no telling me about how special AOA is( i was a partner and involved in hiring in a huge private practice group years ago so i know what’s up). we want team players willing to get out of their comfort zones. Stop always thinking so “academically” because very soon it won’t mean much.

 

[Goro]

Now you are stretching it, but ok, if you say so.

The data is yours to interpret as you please

 

[deleted314957]

You seem pretty upset , must have hit a sore spot.

????? Sore spot. youngster, i was the chief of my department for 23 years at a community hospital, enjoyed the respect of the staff and administration, served as chief of the medical staff among many other committees over the years and am now retired at age 68 with more money than i ever thought i could accumulate. If you can find the sore spot, please show it to me.

All i’m trying to do is point out some real world considerations you don’t usually get exposed to.
Wait till you need advice on billing for your practice. I was sec’y treasurer of my group.


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[gyngyn]

You all get one chance to interact with civility before this gets closed.

 

[Yankees27]

????? Sore spot. youngster, i was the chief of my department for 23 years at a community hospital, enjoyed the respect of the staff and administration, served as chief of the medical staff among many other committees over the years and am now retired at age 68 with more money than i ever thought i could accumulate. If you can find the sore spot, please show it to me.

All i’m trying to do is point out some real world considerations you don’t usually get exposed to.
Wait till you need advice on billing for your practice. I was sec’y treasurer of my group.


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Real world is great, but why take away goals for students in medical school? Everyone will hit the real world one day after graduation, I get that, but while in school, let them strive to be the best they can and shoot for honors, is there something wrong with that? Do we tell children in grade school , "don't try for the honor society, since no one will remember when you are older"....Think about what you are saying.

 

[Yankees27]

Actually he doesn't seem upset at all, he was just rewriting word for word what you overlooked. On the contrary, it appears as if you are the one upset. Did you work hard to get into AOA and are now just realising it may have been for naught?

LOL...too funny. I did and proud of it!

 

[deleted314957]

You all get one chance to interact with civility before this gets closed.

Ah, they hear but they do not listen. Close it gyngyn.


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[gyngyn]

Ah, they hear but they do not listen. Close it gyngyn.

Am I the only one who hears you saying that in Humphey Bogart's voice?
Closing.