UCSF dropped AOA, would other schools follow?
Started by ihaveagf
Get help with your application
Use all the free resources available to you from SDN: articles, guides, expert advising, forums discussions, and school research.
- Status
only top schools will drop it. Lower tiers need it to signal to top programs which applicants are the best. top tiers are all assumed to be good anyway
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
To anyone who reads this and knows: any idea where I can go to learn more against AOA discrimination for URMs from good sources??
I’m curious as well. Also, curious as to whether is AOA is discriminatory towards URM or is primarily pro-white and exactly how if this is the case.
D
deleted688779
Racial Disparities in Medical Student Alpha Omega Alpha Membership
This study examines the association between medical student race/ethnicity and induction into the Alpha Omega Alpha honor society.
jamanetwork.com
That is one article I can find that includes Asian Americans in the category of “minorities” or “people of color”. It also controls for Step 1 scores and other factors.
However, you may find arguments on the Internet that make the issue into an URM/ORM debate, which I often find little to do with whites.
Last edited by a moderator:
I can see how it can turn into an URM / ORM debate and that debate has its place and factors that ought to be considered. I was just curious because one of my hypotheses for why the disparity exists is due to the subjective nature of AOA election. We connect to people who are similar to us and while race isn’t everything, it certainly plays a role so it would make sense that the AOA committee (who I would assume is white-majority at many schools) would elect more white inductees. At the end of the day though, I don’t know anything about any of this but I wanted to indulge my thoughts. I’ve been thinking about it more because I’m not URM but I’m also not white and I work in what I would call a very white environment. I love my co-workers and as far as I can tell, I’ve done awesome work and they’re happy with my work. But there is a limitation we reach on connecting at a social level due to cultural differences and I can see how I would maybe get more opportunities if we were interested in similar things and connected better.Racial Disparities in Medical Student Alpha Omega Alpha Membership
This study examines the association between medical student race/ethnicity and induction into the Alpha Omega Alpha honor society.
That is one article I can find that includes Asian Americans in the category of “minorities” or “people of color”. It also controls for Step 1 scores and other factors.
However, you may find arguments on the Internet that make the issue into an URM/ORM debate, which I often find little to do with whites.
Interesting - now looks like UCSF, Harvard, WashU, Yale, and Stanford have dropped AOA, with Hopkins awarding it after the Match.
This may sound dumb, but as an incoming med student with no one really to ask, I'll ask here anyway. I'm assuming that the entire cohort in the study was eligible and desired to be AOA? If all schools were to drop AOA and now with Step P/F, won't it make it even harder for people not from top schools to match into competitive residencies.. is that not possibly a worse scenario?
Why don't we just do away with grading completely and then we can have a lottery instead of match, this way a subpar student with a 220 step score can become a neurosurgeon, C'mon people, really. Enough, we need to reward those that work hard, not take away because we don't want to hurt poor Johnny's feelings.
Everyone doesn't get a trophy for participation in medical school, you need to earn one!
Why drop AOA?
Everyone doesn't get a trophy for participation in medical school, you need to earn one!
Why drop AOA?
scorpion2020
Full Member
Probably to stop the students from portraying malignant behavior while in clerkships. But I get what you mean though.
Top schools can afford to drop AOA because the students they enroll are stellar to begin with and the name and reputation of the school is good enough to help their students earn good residency spots. Why drop it? It encourages collaboration because students know they’re not being compared to each other.
As far as rewarding people who work hard goes, I completely agree with you but there’s nothing wrong with evaluating the current systems to ensure they’re doing what they were designed to do aka reward those who deserve it.
And yet poor Johnny over here has his feelings hurt cause they dropped AOA?
Those that worked hard will still be rewarded with Honors in rotations, high Step 2 scores, amongst other extracurriculars.
I think by virtue of getting into a medical school like UCSF, you've earned a whole lot already.
As a former UCSF student, I applaud this move. AOA was a joke in my class, mainly given if you took a year off or wanted to match a competitive residency, regardless of your actual wards performance. I had the misfortune of working with some of those on our class’s list, and outside of two individuals who were truly above and beyond, the rest I wouldn’t trust with any of my patients.
I can’t comment for honors/AOA at other schools, but UCSF’s wasn’t a reflection of actual performance, and I’m glad they’ve gotten rid of them.
I can’t comment for honors/AOA at other schools, but UCSF’s wasn’t a reflection of actual performance, and I’m glad they’ve gotten rid of them.
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
So, rather than fix it, you want to elimante it, gotcha. Sorry you didn't get AOA, but dont be sour and want to deny others that earn it!
How's that, so according to you, they should all be judged the same, C'mon man.
D
deleted688779
I don’t disagree with your argument as a whole but regarding this bit...this sounds more like a failure of the school during admissions lol
Lol I just told you how they would be judged differently. C'mon man.
They didn’t earn it. That’s my point. Med school should be more than a popularity contest.
While in school, I argued in favor of the shelves being given equal weight in grading, since you could know almost nothing about a specialty and still honor the rotation if you had the right evaluators. That would’ve helped prevent some of the gunners from sliding through. Clearly the admin felt the problem was more pervasive than that.
This has been discussed to death. Step 2 will replace Step 1 as a screening tool by overworked PDs.
Evaluations, letters, networking and audition rotations will continue to be important.
D
deleted314957
Why drop AOA? Because it is a useless and, perhaps even,
does harm. And besides, 20 years into practice absolutely no one will know or care if you got into a medical frat. I have NEVER known the AOA status of ANY of my colleagues. And I was at it for a long time. If you need your trophies you will have a hard residency.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
You missed the whole point, wow!...BTW, nothing to do with needing a trophy, you need to take a look at the post again, you obviously did not comprehend it.
D
deleted314957
Oh no, I comprehended it. It is a useless organization, harms students more than helps imho and should be abolished. I couldn’t care less about ( having a TROPHY from) AOA and residency admission.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
BTW, here's what the people who really count have to say about AOA.
Look at page 6. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of AOA as being important to PDs.
Look at page 6. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of AOA as being important to PDs.
I was recently elected to AOA at my school. Very anecdotal and the n is small, but my school is about 40% Asian (South and East combined), 30% Caucasian, 30% URM. Our junior AOA cohort was 40% Asian... and 60% Caucasian. Not one URM. Our application process is blinded, but I would definitely not be surprised if clerkship evaluations, which make up the majority of our clinical grades (which is the majority of our AOA selection criteria), are at least somewhat racially biased.
Last edited:
I see there is a few in the minority here, but hey, everyone has a right to their opinion. Take away AOA, use a P/F on step 1, get rid of CS and we can then just make everyone happy by saying all students are equal and we can tell program directors to close their eyes and select your residents....SMH
Now you are stretching it, but ok, if you say so.
DrStephennmnm
Full Member
Actually he doesn't seem upset at all, he was just rewriting word for word what you overlooked. On the contrary, it appears as if you are the one upset. Did you work hard to get into AOA and are now just realising it may have been for naught?
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Nah brah, I'm good, but hey, I didn't know you were a mind reader and know that he's not upset.
D
deleted314957
That is an interesting and revealing reference. Thank you.
I would like to point out to all the aspiring physicians one of the metrics which is very easily overlooked after you have spent your life in cut-throat academic competition and filling in all the check boxes for med school admission.
This observation further reinforces an adage i have repeated to medical students and young doctors over the past many years; and, that little adage is “affability, availability and ability” being core necessities for success in medicine. Please, please, please note the first one.Programs and hiring groups REALLY like nice, easy to get along with folks. No prima donnas, no egos, no telling me about how special AOA is( i was a partner and involved in hiring in a huge private practice group years ago so i know what’s up). we want team players willing to get out of their comfort zones. Stop always thinking so “academically” because very soon it won’t mean much.
The data is yours to interpret as you please
D
deleted314957
????? Sore spot. youngster, i was the chief of my department for 23 years at a community hospital, enjoyed the respect of the staff and administration, served as chief of the medical staff among many other committees over the years and am now retired at age 68 with more money than i ever thought i could accumulate. If you can find the sore spot, please show it to me.
All i’m trying to do is point out some real world considerations you don’t usually get exposed to.
Wait till you need advice on billing for your practice. I was sec’y treasurer of my group.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
You all get one chance to interact with civility before this gets closed.
Real world is great, but why take away goals for students in medical school? Everyone will hit the real world one day after graduation, I get that, but while in school, let them strive to be the best they can and shoot for honors, is there something wrong with that? Do we tell children in grade school , "don't try for the honor society, since no one will remember when you are older"....Think about what you are saying.
LOL...too funny. I did and proud of it!
D
deleted314957
Ah, they hear but they do not listen. Close it gyngyn.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Am I the only one who hears you saying that in Humphey Bogart's voice?
Closing.
- Status
Similar threads
