UCSF vs. NYU

[lalalooloo]

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[758437]

First, I think there are no wrong options for you. I think you'll do great regardless. A couple factors that might be worth considering.

What are your career aspirations and where do you want to end up?

What's the difference going to be in terms of cost of attendance not just tuition?

Will you have any support network in New York?

 

[lalalooloo]

First, I think there are no wrong options for you. I think you'll do great regardless. A couple factors that might be worth considering.

What are your career aspirations and where do you want to end up?

What's the difference going to be in terms of cost of attendance not just tuition?

Will you have any support network in New York?

1. I'm interested in academia and public/global health, but not set on a specialty yet.
2. I oversimplified in my original post, but the cost difference is going to be $140k, taking into account the cost of living.
3. I do have a few close friends in the area, but that's pretty much it.

Thank you for your thoughts!

 

[CarpeDiem1993]

First of all...DAMN! Congrats friend. Absolutely amazing choices. I know people always majorly hate on having student debt (and I completely understand that, it's a longterm burden), but here are my thoughts.

First, I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with taking on debt for something that you genuinely care about and love. People go into debt all the time for fleeting material things (cars, boats, clothes, jewelry)- going into debt to receive a stellar education from a top institution you are comfortable with and love? To me, that is the best sacrifice to make. You WILL make a good chunk of money eventually, and if you are wise, you WILL be able to pay that debt off in a reasonable amount of time. But regret? Nah, you can't ever quite shake that feeling off.

So, I would (based on your thoughts/list above) choose UCSF. Living in NY will be VERY EXPENSIVE anyhow, which is probably a key reason they pushed for free tuition haha. Also, although NYU randomly shot up the rankings in the past few years, I think it is safe to say that in academic medical circles, UCSF is still considered a stronger, more "prestigious" institution, and it has that established pedigree for decades. They are the OG haha.

Don't downplay your own comfort and happiness too. You are going to get to be around those you love, in a less chaotic/insane place, and in beautiful Cali. I might steer you in a different direction if you were sacrificing school quality for those extraneous factors...but you are not (in this case) at all. UCSF is amazing! I would also argue that they are more of a research powerhouse than NYU...idk, you see UCSF all over the place in medical publications.

Finally, I know that the whole curriculum change can be worrisome. But I would not fret about that too much. Every school is always tweaking and trying to make adjustments. At the end of the day, everyone struggles through those tough pre-clerkship years. AND- from what I researched, UCSF is Pass/Fail starting our year so....I mean, you just need to study as hard as you can and Pass like everyone else. Step studying is so individualized that you can do as well as you want/put in work for, regardless of the "curriculum."

I once passed on the opportunity to go to my dream school for financial reasons (undergrad), and I lowkey always wondered what-if. (funny story- I got into that place for medical school and may very well end up there anyhow!) So I am a huge proponent of seizing every opportunity- chase your dream! I say go for it, go to UCSF.

 

[differentiating]

Finally, I know that the whole curriculum change can be worrisome. But I would not fret about that too much. Every school is always tweaking and trying to make adjustments. At the end of the day, everyone struggles through those tough pre-clerkship years. AND- from what I researched, UCSF is Pass/Fail starting our year so....I mean, you just need to study as hard as you can and Pass like everyone else. Step studying is so individualized that you can do as well as you want/put in work for, regardless of the "curriculum."

Just to clarify - UCSF has been P/F preclinical for years, but starting with the current MS2 class, core clerkships have been changed to P/F as well. I can’t comment on the Bridges change (though it’s been around for 3 years, so I’d expect that it’d be much less “experimental” now), but the clinical grading change is a MAJOR improvement imo.

 

[878956]

You'd be a fool if you don’t go to NYU.

 

[lalalooloo]

You'd be a fool if you don’t go to NYU.

Why?

 

[878956]

That full tuition can be leveraged for full COA if you tell NYU that you got into UCSF (albeit politely)

NYU is on the upward trajectory. UCSF is struggling for funds and hence old news.

 

[lalalooloo]

Just to clarify - UCSF has been P/F preclinical for years, but starting with the current MS2 class, core clerkships have been changed to P/F as well. I can’t comment on the Bridges change (though it’s been around for 3 years, so I’d expect that it’d be much less “experimental” now), but the clinical grading change is a MAJOR improvement imo.

Could you elaborate on your thoughts re: clinical grading change? Since the only grades we would get, then, are fourth year, how do residencies compare students? Grades in fourth year are relatively useless since you have to apply at the start of the year. Obviously UCSF matches well, so I'm not immensely concerned, but I am a bit confused.

 

[differentiating]

Could you elaborate on your thoughts re: clinical grading change? Since the only grades we would get, then, are fourth year, how do residencies compare students? Grades in fourth year are relatively useless since you have to apply at the start of the year. Obviously UCSF matches well, so I'm not immensely concerned, but I am a bit confused.

Core clerkship grading was a major issue for UCSF in the past, as there were many factors that went into it and your actual performance was often one of the less important ones. Honors were capped at 45% of the class, which means that you can be amazing and still just get a pass - because the whole class is qualified and trying to impress. It's purely subjective grading (shelves basically didn't factor in), so if you're introverted/have a bad fit with your team, you should kiss honors goodbye from the get-go. Plus, all rotations aren't the same, so being assigned one site vs another puts you at a disadvantage with an H/P/F system. Pretty much everybody in my class hated our clinical grading system, especially now that we're applying for residency.

Without core clerkship grades, you would still have sub-I grades (I had 3 sub-Is on my MSPE prior to application, and since classes now start rotations earlier, that'll give you even more time to do sub-Is), written comments for evaluation, and Steps - all of which are a better reflection of your performance and potential than the arbitrary grading system we have now. (EDIT: I forgot LORs as well; finding people who will advocate for you is huge, as comments from my LORs have been brought up at multiple interviews.) There are schools who do this system already (iirc Stanford is one), and they don't have any issues matching.

Plus, that frees up MS3 for actually learning how to practice medicine, rather than worrying about all of these extraneous things.

 

[sweatytshirt]

You'd be a fool if you don’t go to NYU.

How?? UCSF is ranked #1 by residency directors. NYU is #22. UCSF has one of the top residency programs in the country (in multiple specialites). Yea, the free tuition at NYU would nice, but the opportunities OP could have by going to UCSF make the price worth it IMO. OP should use NYU to get lower tuition at UCSF.

 

[differentiating]

How?? UCSF is ranked #1 by residency directors. NYU is #22. UCSF has one of the top residency programs in the country (in multiple specialites). Yea, the free tuition at NYU would nice, but the opportunities OP could have by going to UCSF make the price worth it IMO. OP should use NYU to get lower tuition at UCSF.

UCSF doesn’t offer merit aid, so I’m not sure that anything would change. I do agree that the school name carries you far, especially in residency applications.

 

[878956]

How?? UCSF is ranked #1 by residency directors. NYU is #22. UCSF has one of the top residency programs in the country (in multiple specialites). Yea, the free tuition at NYU would nice, but the opportunities OP could have by going to UCSF make the price worth it IMO. OP should use NYU to get lower tuition at UCSF.

NYU is continuing to rise up the rank and the difference between #1 and #22 (which it won’t be by the time OP graduates) is benign in my opinion. Whatever you can get from UCSF, you would get from NYU. In addition, UCSF funding has been shaky the last few years which is surprising since they are located in the bay. You could potentially go to one of the best medical schools debt free which is something your future self will thank you for when you have to have that important talk with Sallie Mae.

 

[CarpeDiem1993]

Respectfully, I strongly disagree with 878956. Future you will thank you for going where you wanted to go, where deep down you felt you belonged. As I said previously, going into debt for what you love is completely worth it. Especially when you can be pretty assured that your future career will provide you with the means to pay off that debt in a timely manner. And, no, UCSF is not on a downward trajectory lolol. UCSF is one of the premier academic institutions in the country, a much bigger name in medical research than NYU. Don't get me wrong, NYU is great. But UCSF is just better. Those USNWR rankings are interesting and all, but just one tiny metric of a school's overall strength. NYU was literally a 30-something ranked school like 8 years ago...and randomly has shot up to 3. But UCSF has always been, and continues to be, in that top echelon of schools.

And to tell someone "they would be a fool" to choose one phenomenal school over another is...idk, kinda messed up. Everyone has different priorities, just because yours is mainly money does not mean that it is another person's! I would agree if they were choosing a no-name school that was more expensive over a full-ride at NYU...but that isn't the case.

 

[scootad.]

Assuming NYU stays in the top 10 (which wouldn't be a stretch given high research $$), expect residency director US news score to climb way higher than #22.

IMO these are peer institutions now

 

[stickflip723]

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[puahate]

NYU

Free school, Upward trajectory, high ranked

 

[966212]

Do people really do this? The thought briefly entered my mind before I realized how outrageous it would be to ask a school that's already given such an amazing gift to ALL of its students for even MORE money. Could it hurt to ask?

Dude, medical schools don't really care about their applicants. Like gonnif has stated in the past, applicants are simply tools for the institution. When a school of NYU caliber accepts you, the applicant now has the leverage (especially when they have a UCSF acceptance at hand). NYU wants to protect their yield, as such, they don't want to lose any of their applicants to other top tier schools (which is why they created the scholarship in the first place). Just like the Geffen scholarship, its intent is to attract highly competitive applicants.

 

[rball]

Carpediem1993 has hit the nail on the head.

NYU is a great school with several elite departments, but is in no way a peer of UCSF; that is blatantly false. UCSF is on the same level as Harvard, Hopkins, Stanford; it’s reputation is in a different league than NYU’s in academic medicine. This may or not be fair, but it’s true. Granted I am a resident on the west coast, but this is my understanding knowing attendings/residents/etc across the country. USNEWS rankings are garbage unfortunately.

OP, if you sincerely like UCSF better, go there. It will open more doors given equal performance at either school, and you will pay back the loans relatively stress free. It appears from your pros/cons list you’d be happier there. If you like NYU better and think you’d be happier there and better able to succeed there, then go there. But don’t let premeds on this site convince you that this is “no-brainer” because of $$ involved; that is simply reckless advice given the caliber of UCSF and your own personal prefences.

Also I just realized someone on this thread said UCSF has done away with clerkship grading. If that is true, that is huge. You cannot overstate how much that will improve the quality of your life during third year, where you can focus on solely learning and enjoying clinical medicine without the weight of a subjective grade hanging over your head.

 

[966212]

It’s funny that you seemed to give nearly opposing advice on this thread vs the UCSF and Pritzker thread. I would consider NYU to be a peer of Pritzker, if not UCSF, and on that thread you were much more reasonable about the fact that your prospects will be good coming out of either school, whereas here you seem to act as though going to NYU will do you a great disservice when it comes to residency. I do think UCSF carries more weight in academic medicine, but I’m also not sure that weight is worth $250,000 in tuition that comes free at NYU. I also believe the caliber of students at all three schools is about the same.

If OP would feel unhappy being away from a support system, then UCSF is a great choice. Otherwise, NYU is not a no-name school, and the financial benefits of attending could be worth more than the increase in reputation from a T10 to a T5 school.

Lol you busted him.

 

[rball]

It’s funny that you seemed to give nearly opposing advice on this thread vs the UCSF and Pritzker thread. I would consider NYU to be a peer of Pritzker, if not UCSF, and on that thread you were much more reasonable about the fact that your prospects will be good coming out of either school, whereas here you seem to act as though going to NYU will do you a great disservice when it comes to residency. I do think UCSF carries more weight in academic medicine, but I’m also not sure that weight is worth $250,000 in tuition that comes free at NYU. I also believe the caliber of students at all three schools is about the same.

If OP would feel unhappy being away from a support system, then UCSF is a great choice. Otherwise, NYU is not a no-name school, and the financial benefits of attending could be worth more than the increase in reputation from a T10 to a T5 school.

So I did not give opposing advice. If you read that thread, you would see that OP was interested in IM and EM, and one of the main concerns he/she brought up was the reputation of UCSF. I said in that thread UCSF is the bigger name, but in IM or EM, your career options coming out of Pritzker would be nearly identical. The match lists bear this out, as does the historical reputation of Pritzker in these fields. As far as NYU being a peer of Pritzker, that really depends on the field of interest you’re talking about.

In this situation, we are talking about a student who has mentioned academia specifically, in which case UCSF > NYU. If people don't want to believe that because USNEWS says NYU is #3, that is fine.

I do not think that NYU will hold OP back at all; it has a strong reputation that would help the student tremendously. But I think you want to make it easier for yourself in the future to do whatever you want to do. Given equal performance at either school, UCSF will make it easier to open future options in academia.

I did say the most important thing for the OP is to pick where he/she would be happiest, and if that place is NYU then go there. I certainly understand the $$ concerns, but I do not think the loan $ he/she described should be the most important decision factor. I also think some premeds here (not you) are doing her a disservice by saying that NYU is a peer of UCSF when that is simply not true, especially in academia

 

[scootad.]

UCSF, like almost all the other top 10 schools, has consistently been a top notch medical school. What NYU has accomplished in the last 5 years is nothing short of remarkable. Rankings generally don’t change amongst the elite schools, year to year. With research $$ pouring in, big endowments, NYU has risen like a rocket to the top in a 5 year span. People in medicine, especially prestige chasers, aren’t used to this pace of change. NYU has always attracted high stat people for its rank. With free tuition, expect NYU to retain this high level of matriculant caliber. Give it another year, most people will consider NYU as elite as it gets, like they think of NYU Law.

 

[rball]

UCSF, like almost all the other top 10 schools, has consistently been a top notch medical school. What NYU has accomplished in the last 10 years is nothing short of remarkable. Rankings generally don’t change amongst the elite schools, year to year. With research $$ pouring in, big endowments, NYU has risen like a rocket to the top in a 5 year span. People in medicine, especially prestige chasers, aren’t used to this pace of change. NYU has always attracted high stat people for its rank. With free tuition, expect NYU to retain this high level of matriculant caliber. Give it another year, most people will comsider NYU as elite, like they think of NYU Law.

This is just not true. Historically NYU has always been a highly respected school with elite programs in several areas. So you could say it is already elite. The fact that it shot up in a meaningless magazine ranking does not really change its reputation much amongst people who matter. Those who matter base their opinions on the historical reputation of the school, quality of graduates produced, connections between institutions, etc.

It’s true NYU will attract more highly qualified matriculants based on their free tution, so maybe a generation from now when those matriculants have made a name in the field, NYU’s reputation will significantly increase. For now, not really-reputation in medicine is relatively stagnant.

Anyways, I dont think OP should be basing their decision solely on reputation - both are great schools that will help his/her career. But based on his/her interest in academia and the fact that you cannot beat UCSF for that type of career, I think his/her priorities should be fit/happiness first, followed by reputation second, and then cost.

If OP prefers NYU, feels they would be happier there etc., OP should go there. On the other hand, going to NYU just because it is less expensive or under the assumption that it carries the same weight as UCSF in academia is a recipe for disaster.

 

[kjamess]

The fact that it shot up in a meaningless magazine ranking does not really change its reputation much amongst people who matter. Those who matter base their opinions on the historical reputation of the school, quality of graduates produced, connections between institutions, etc.

It’s true NYU will attract more highly qualified matriculants based on their free tution, so maybe a generation from now when those matriculants have made a name in the field, NYU’s reputation will significantly increase. For now, not really-reputation in medicine is relatively stagnant.

QFT. As someone who has been involved in both residency and fellowship selection, I can tell you that there is a lot of inertia when it comes to prestige and reputation. It certainly isnt influenced by the latest pop magazines, whether its readers digest or usnews or usatoday. There are some "highly ranked" residency programs per those news magazines that we collectively consider to be middle tier and vice versa. It is what it is, but keep in mind reputation of your program isnt end all be all, just one factor thats considered. Now if you want to go to a school just to say you attended a top X school, then thats a different matter. Just be prepared to have your school drop out of a certain bracket once the inevitable ranking fluctuation occurs.

 

[lalalallala]

140k + interest is not trivial living in a city with a high cost of living and doing EM. NYU has a strong ER program and opportunities. UCSF is also a great school. I would pick based off of fit. If it were me I would pick NYU because I like the east coast and didn't like the fit at UCSF and I don't want to be in debt. How you weigh those things will be different from me.