UIC versus Midwestern-Downers Grove

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freshbeatschris

freshbeatschris

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To those of you current pharmacy students attending UIC or Midwestern in Downers Grove, I have just been accepted to both and now need to make the decision with my fiance as to which one I will be attending for the next four years of my life.

Aside from the stats, and the locations, and the cost, I would really, really like to get an inside perspective from those of you who are attending these programs. Could you tell me what you like, what you love, and what you could do without at these schools?

Thank you in advance for your time and your input. I greatly appreciate it.

Chris
 
The UIC area is not as bad as some make it out; it is improving very quickly. Taylor St. and Roosevelt St. have sprouted together 5 new banks in about 2 years in the UIC areas. The key is not to go west of Western and you will probably be fine. I have no fear walking by myself during the day. UIC, like any urban campus, does not recommend people walk alone at night, and so they have an escort service and a shuttle service after 11pm.
UIC COP's academic philosophy is pretty much if you get in, you should graduate. The classes are hard but not impossible. Let us look at the two hard P1 classes: physiology and Med Chem. Physiology has not have an F in over 15 years. Med Chem 1 with exams has 70-75% basic concept questions, and the rest are what are considered challenge questions. For Med Chem 2, the correct average is 80%. The professor takes his questions directly from the objectives and tries to have a certain number of basic knowledge questions and challenge.
Yes, UIC is a research oriented school, but you can always meet with your professor. They are not as unavailable as some may lead you to believe. Dr. Blond, Med Chem 1 course coordinator, actually went out of her way to meet with the D and F students. Most courses at UIC are team taught. You will have a professor for a set number of lectures and then you will have another professor. There are good and bad points about that. I can only think of a handful of really thick accents, but in general, you get use to it.
There is going to be several construction/repair projects at UIC COP. First, they are actually going to replace the escalators. This summer the Pharmacy simulation lab and the first half of the first floor lecture room remodeling project will be completed. Next summer, the second half of the first floor lecture room remodeling project and the remodeling of the dosage lab will be done. Nothing can change the fact that the building is old. On the University side, both East and West Side gyms have just been remodeled. The favorite perk at UIC is the U-Pass. You will pay a set fee for a semester, and get unlimited CTA and Pace rides. Student Accounts is notorious for posting incorrect bills, and financial aid tends to be slow. Submit your award letter by the beginning of July and you'll be fine.
At you might have noticed, OSA sometimes can be a little slow. Some professors tend to travel a lot. For one class, the professor went to China after an exam, and he left the midterms in his locked office. We were not able to receive the results for 3 weeks. Most classes have an exam turnaround of one week or less.
In all, most UIC pharmacy students like going to UIC pharmacy.
Things to think about, are you interested in clinical Pharmacy or not. UIC has a huge clinical program. UIC will not hold your hand, but Midwestern will do more of that. UIC is going through an administration change. The current dean, Dr. Sagraves, was forced out, and so we will have an interim dean, Dr. Bauman, for one year before a new one is chosen.
I hope this helps 🙂
 
genesis09 said:
Things to think about, are you interested in clinical Pharmacy or not. UIC has a huge clinical program. UIC will not hold your hand, but Midwestern will do more of that.
I hope this helps 🙂
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Thank you very much for taking the time to share. I really appreciate that.

I am looking forward to seeing what opportunities lie out there for me in the field of pharmacy and I am really curious to see where my personality and strengths are best suited. Right now, prior to starting any official pharmacy education, I am very interested in specializing in end of life care. I want to comfort folks with terminal illnesses or just at the end of their natural life. I am already counting on spending one or two years in residencies.

Where do you feel this puts me with regards to UIC? A good fit?

Chris
 
freshbeatschris said:
Thank you very much for taking the time to share. I really appreciate that.

I am looking forward to seeing what opportunities lie out there for me in the field of pharmacy and I am really curious to see where my personality and strengths are best suited. Right now, prior to starting any official pharmacy education, I am very interested in specializing in end of life care. I want to comfort folks with terminal illnesses or just at the end of their natural life. I am already counting on spending one or two years in residencies.

Where do you feel this puts me with regards to UIC? A good fit?
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Long term care is a clinical speciality. You will have to do the Pharmacy Practice Residency. There are speciality residencies for long term, but not a lot of them, and none in Illinois. UIC along with the residencies does offer fellowships and there's more flexibility there. UIC does offer a P4 clerkship in Long term care. If you are interested in clinical, UIC does prepare you well because it's one of their things. Our Experential I course is coordinated by the Walgreens/UIC faculty member and a clinical Pharmacist at UIH. There is a lot of interaction amongst the college, the residents, clinical pharmacists, ambulatory care, industry, etc. UIC does have this better relationship with hospital clinical and ambulatory care pharmacists mainly because UIC has its own hospital which is right next door, and also, the school is right next to three other hospitals. I am certain Midwestern does have relationships with them. They are near Good Samaritan Hospital, but they don't offer residencies. That does not mean they do not have clinical pharmacist. Both schools offer half academic residencies. UIC does successfully send a higher percentage of its grads to residencies and this is a case in which the reputation of your school does help.
I don't know much about the Midwestern program; except for the fact they are on quarters. I heard that they have two exams every week compared to UIC's mostly one exam every week.
 
Question for Freshbeatchris: I've also been accepted to UIC for fall '06 and judging by the date of your post did you get your email yesterday (April 1)? I got the email yesterday and almost thought it was a sick joke since interviews were so recently and April Fool's day.... Anyway no one that I know that applied to UIC was even invited to an interview so I just thought I'd ask 🙂
 
Jennay41 said:
Question for Freshbeatchris: I've also been accepted to UIC for fall '06 and judging by the date of your post did you get your email yesterday (April 1)? I got the email yesterday and almost thought it was a sick joke since interviews were so recently and April Fool's day.... Anyway no one that I know that applied to UIC was even invited to an interview so I just thought I'd ask 🙂
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Yes, I received the email yesterday. I was very shocked as well. They said that we would hear by the 15th of this month. We are definitely one of many. Only a fifth of the folks that applied were invited to an interview and only half of those folks are offered a seat.

Are you accepting your invitation?

Chris
 
Caverject said:
Do you prefer the ghetto and tradition or suburbia at a new school?
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I prefer the best education that I can possibly receive with respect to who I am as an individual and what I hope to do with this degree. Could I make it any more vague? 😀

Although I do consider myself a rather tough individual, I prefer to have a supportive community throughout the pharmacy years.

You are right on with your comparison. The two schools are like night and day compared with one another.

What to do....
Where to go....
Where is my best fit?

chris
 
There are supportive programs at UIC, but you have to ask for them. You have to make the initiative.
 
Since the replies so far have been one sided, and very mis-informed about certain aspects, I will add my 2 cents...

1. Midwestern is partnered with hospitals - namely Loyola and Rush and Edwards....unlike the UIC poster siad, these are high quality institutions, many with residencies. I know in the next year or 2 Loyola will also haev a residency there. Trust me, you will find no one who will argue about the quality at either Rush or Loyola. Edwards is also a very very good hospital, albight not a teaching hospital. Many MWU students also do rotations at institutions such as the VAs, Northwestern, and Evanston.

2. There are quite a lot of MWU students who have quality residencies. We have had people at Johns-Hopkins(don't know the last UIC person to go there), U or Maryland, several at Lutheran General, Rutgers, Rush, Evanston, etc etc. Midwestern also has residencies tied to the school. Namely 2 primary care and 2 pharmacotherapy (PGY-2 residency).

3. ANother large myth is the MWU only trains you for community pharmacy. Not true, see above post. And when you are there you see the emphasis put on amb care and other clinical aspects

3. WHen it gets down to it, the level of education is the same no matter where you go. And, yes, Midwestern does have a higher boards passing rate, eventhough the other poster tried to say they don't (you forgot that the people takign the NAPLEX/MPJE in IL are not all from UIC/MWU, there are plenty from Butler, Drake, Purdue, WI, etc. Trust me, the stats are there.

4. Basically what it boils down to is you have to look at the school itself. Like another poster said, do you want suburban life or city life? And cost is a major consideration between the two. \

I hope this clears some up for all of you
 
freshbeatschris said:
Yes, I received the email yesterday. I was very shocked as well. They said that we would hear by the 15th of this month. We are definitely one of many. Only a fifth of the folks that applied were invited to an interview and only half of those folks are offered a seat.

Are you accepting your invitation?

Chris
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Its my first acceptance so far, waiting to hear from Midwestern, SIUE, Iowa and Drake. But UIC is also my first choice, so i'm 95% sure I'm going to go there, I just haven't signed yet.
 
kristakoch said:
Since the replies so far have been one sided, and very mis-informed about certain aspects, I will add my 2 cents...

I hope this clears some up for all of you
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Thank you Krista for your input. I was hoping to get a good dialog going between students attending both schools.

The cost difference between the two is huge. It will end up being about $40,000, which is about 1/3 of the money I am expecting to take out in loans.

I LOVE going for walks and Midwester is backed by Lyman woods, a very nice preserve. UIC is backed by some scary areas and I know that UIC medical students are sometimes targeted for mugging. UIC does have the city of Chicago at their feet and you can't beat the restaurants, nightlife, cheap chicken wings (10 cents a piece on Tuesdays at a bar with your choice of topping) that you will get in Chicago.

I could live without that commute going to UIC though, and I assume the parking will add on a rather hefty expense.

Rolling green hills at Midwestern.
Imposing black building at UIC.
Gated community (literally) at Midwestern.
Scary area around UIC.
$130,000 for everything at Midwestern
$80,000 for everything at UIC.
Emphasis on educating competent pharmacists at Midwestern (as spoken by the dean)
Emphasis on research at UIC (as spoken by everyone other than the dean).

I'm torn.
I don't know what to do.

Chris

P.S. - sorry for the off topic meandering. 😳
 
Always go to the more research based school. That way you will have more options.

Anyone can always go to community. You will be expected to study harder at UIC, but oh well.

And a lot less loans. So just with the money factor, I would choose UIC.
 
Chris,

I'm bogarding my gf's logon....I went to Midwestern and graduated a few years ago. I also got into UIC, so I thought I would tell you a few things that I weighed when choosing the school I went to.

-Where do you think you will excel and have opportunities? Regardless of how much schools cost if you truly feel that it is the right school for you go with your gut. Everyone gets out with loans, the most important thing is: does the school set you up for your future. Like a previous poster stated, just b/c you go to Midwestern doesn't mean you won't have opportunities. I never had problems getting residency or job offers....that is another set of hard decisons that awaits you!!

-Job options and pass rates for boards. You will always have options when choosing a career path in this field, so I wouldn't focus on UIC having a research heavy program/dept. Realistically, what does that do for you unless you want to do research. Plus, I dont know of anyone in my class that didnt pass the boards or get numerous job offers.

-Make appts to meet with faculty or email them. Pick a few random professors from the websites and meet with them or email them with a detailed set of questions. When I did this 3 of the UIC profs I emailed never emailed me back...I thought of it as a sign.

-Does it really matter if you live in the city or the burbs? I'm originally from NYC so I was frazzled by the idea of living in the burbs (all I could think was..are there other lesbians the burbs? :laugh: ), but realistically I knew that I wouldnt be doing much during school. I spent my time maintaing my relationship and worked hard to graduate in the top 2% of my class.

-All in all I chose Midwestern b/c I liked the community feel, esp b/c I went back when I was 28. I also loved the professors and staff.

-It is a hard decision and I wish you all the best!

DiOnna
P/S congrats on getting engaged! 😍
 
Chris, I repeat do not drive a car down here, it is insane. You have to pay for parking here, unlike at Midwestern, and the parking fee per semester is $251. As a new student, you will probably get one of the bad, distant West Side Lots, like W2. However, in time, they will upgrade you to a nice lot like Wood St. It is much easier to drive to a train station, and continue on from there with your already purchased U-Pass.
I personally have never had any problems getting responses back from a professor. If you are interested in sitting in a class, talking to a student or professor you might want to e-mail Dr. Agard, Dr. Woodward, or Ms. Fleming., and they will help you set it up. Some professors are more willing to talk with students than others, and they might know which ones are which. You should do it quickly because the last regular week of classes is the week of April 24.
I have been at UIC since 2003, and the name of the game is using common sense. Don't go west of Western Ave. The public housing between the two campuses is being torned down, and rumor has it that a Trader Joes is going to be moving into one of the retail spots. The area is uppifying at an alarming rate. They are actually advertising for new fancy condos at the corner of Damen and Lake.
UIC has partnerships with all of the hospitals in the Medical District: West Side VA, Cook County, and Rush Medical Center. The Clinical Pharmacist mentoring program this year is being offered through Rush. P4 year it is not uncommon for both UIC and Midwestern students to have clerkships at the same hospital or site.
There is a strong feeling of community at UIC COP. Yes, certain professors are trying to get more students to do research or PhD. The school has decided that they want to actively recruit PharmDs into a PhD program. They have just established a PharmD/PhD program. I don't really know of anyone who is interested in that program, but I know of some who are interested in the PharmD/MBA program.
 
Since you go to UIC and are much more familiar with the area than I am. I'm not even from the greater Chicago area at all. I really want to go to UIC, and as of yet its the only school I've been accepted to, but my dad does not want me to go. He's never been there and he thinks it is the ghetto and he doesn't think its safe, blah blah blah...he's an idiot. So I was wondering if you knew of a good route to take him to the college to avoid any streets that he might consider questionable, my mapquest directions to the interview didn't take that into consideration. I get there by going north on 55. I'd really appreciate any help here!
 
Thank you for your advice and well wishes. It is an exciting time... lot's of big life changes happening.

Chris
 
Jennay41 said:
Since you go to UIC and are much more familiar with the area than I am. I'm not even from the greater Chicago area at all. I really want to go to UIC, and as of yet its the only school I've been accepted to, but my dad does not want me to go. He's never been there and he thinks it is the ghetto and he doesn't think its safe, blah blah blah...he's an idiot. So I was wondering if you knew of a good route to take him to the college to avoid any streets that he might consider questionable, my mapquest directions to the interview didn't take that into consideration. I get there by going north on 55. I'd really appreciate any help here!
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I come from the north. But taking the Kennedy and getting off at the Taylor Exit (52b I think)...and just driving all the way down Taylor to the West Campus doesn't involve any questionable streets...at least in my opinion...or you can take Harrison all the way down. That is more of a main street...and might make a better impression for your father. As for getting to that exit I don't know if you will pass any questionable areas from where you are coming from...but once you are at the exit it is fine.

I have been at UIC for 3 years now and I have never felt threatened or the area to be questionable. Although I know it had that reputation in the past...but all those areas have been torn down.

Also, I have had more bad experiences on the Red Line near DePaul and Fullerton than on the Blue Line...so go figure.
 
I'm a student and Midwestern..not much more I can say than that I LOVE this place. I think you'll get a similar statement by the majority of the students here.

The main reason why I chose this school over UIC was the faculty. The faculty at this school is here for one reason only, they love to teach. You will notice that our faculty is pretty young, but that means they can relate well to students and are full of fresh ideas, not to mention up to date on current practices. This school will prepare you for any type of career you choose. They do a great job of exposing you to ALL areas of pharmacy practice...community, hospital, and clinical. They understand that the students have very diverse goals. My class, the current PS-2 class, if the first class to be part of the redesigned curriculum at this school. It is very clinical orrientated. Most importantly, they teach you how to effectively communicate with patients and other healthcare professionals...this is vital to success as a pharmacist.

This school isn't affiliated with a particular hospital per say, but much of the faculty works for places like Loyola and Rush. We have opportunites for rotations and all the major hospitals in the Chicagoland area.
 
I think those that are debating between the schools...

It basically comes down to, do you want to be in school in the city or the suburbs?

That's it.

Every school has great profs and bad profs, great classes and classes that put you to sleep the minute the first sound comes out of the prof's mouth.
 
pharm_girl said:
Does anyone know if Midwestern University has a Pharm.D./PhD. program like UIC?
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I don't think so. I am interested in research too, but when I went the MCV, they nevered mentioned research nor a program to earn a pHD. You can always call the school and ask though...
 
pharm_girl said:
Does anyone know if Midwestern University has a Pharm.D./PhD. program like UIC?
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No, MWU does not have a PharmD/PhD program. You can work it so you can earn and MS in Biomedical Sciences...but I don't know anyone who does that.

There are opportunities for research on campus with various faculty members and you can get award money to carry out the research.
 
dreaminpharmd said:
I don't think so. I am interested in research too, but when I went the MCV, they nevered mentioned research nor a program to earn a pHD. You can always call the school and ask though...
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Or *gasp* look on their website. But if people actually did a little research on their own then half of questions like that wouldn't exist.
 
There are opportunities for research on campus with various faculty members and you can get award money to carry out the research.[/QUOTE]

That is awesome! I wonder where all the research labs are! Thanks for clarifying.
 
dreaminpharmd said:
There are opportunities for research on campus with various faculty members and you can get award money to carry out the research.

That is awesome! I wonder where all the research labs are! Thanks for clarifying.
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The basic science labs are all in Prabu Hall on the upper floors and the pharmaceutical science labs are in Centennial Hall (the one with the big practice lab/mock pharmacy upstairs).
 
Ahh the big UIC/Midwestern "who is better debate" still continues. I think both schools offer a great education. I personally believe that UIC gives you more opportunities because of the large on site UIC medical campus with stroger and RUSH along side neuropsyciatric and tons of ambulatory clinics.

From my experience the only difference that I see between UIC and Midwestern is that UIC still teaches compounding heavily which Midwestern (this is coming from those that attended Midwestern themselves) does not. Whether this is practical, I dunno given that most dosage forms are manufactured anyway, but making isoniazid gummy bears and chocolate troches in class probably was all for nothing.

Pretty soon, southern Pharm.D students are going to be chiming in here talking about how their school is better. I will say that UIC still maintains probably the strictest entrace standards and unlike Midwestern, will not increase class size to accomodate quantity over quality...or so I have heard.
 
pharmdgto said:
Ahh the big UIC/Midwestern "who is better debate" still continues. I think both schools offer a great education. I personally believe that UIC gives you more opportunities because of the large on site UIC medical campus with stroger and RUSH along side neuropsyciatric and tons of ambulatory clinics.

From my experience the only difference that I see between UIC and Midwestern is that UIC still teaches compounding heavily which Midwestern (this is coming from those that attended Midwestern themselves) does not. Whether this is practical, I dunno given that most dosage forms are manufactured anyway, but making isoniazid gummy bears and chocolate troches in class probably was all for nothing.

Pretty soon, southern Pharm.D students are going to be chiming in here talking about how their school is better. I will say that UIC still maintains probably the strictest entrace standards and unlike Midwestern, will not increase class size to accomodate quantity over quality...or so I have heard.
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Oh man not this again...it comes down to that you won't compromise your education by picking one over the other... MWU doesn't have the history of UIC, but you will still get the same opportunities. Yes MWU doesn't have its own teaching hospital, but Rush University's residency program is affiliated with MWU. MWU does have an entire required course in compounding where you learn the basics that will get you through what you would need to know for community pharmacy...there is also an option for an advanced elective in compounding for those who want more exposure. MWU's class size is set at 200..this does not change to accomidate "quantity." I think years ago there might have been a huge gap between the schools, but that really doesn't exist anymore. Yes there are students that pick MWU over UIC these days.
 
KARM12 said:
Oh man not this again...it comes down to that you won't compromise your education by picking one over the other... MWU doesn't have the history of UIC, but you will still get the same opportunities. Yes MWU doesn't have its own teaching hospital, but Rush University's residency program is affiliated with MWU. MWU does have an entire required course in compounding where you learn the basics that will get you through what you would need to know for community pharmacy...there is also an option for an advanced elective in compounding for those who want more exposure. MWU's class size is set at 200..this does not change to accomidate "quantity." I think years ago there might have been a huge gap between the schools, but that really doesn't exist anymore. Yes there are students that pick MWU over UIC these days.
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MWU class size was increased to 200. It was orginally 150 like UIC. UIC won't waver like MWU did. Not saying it was bad but they must have cracked under the pressure of the state to increase class size. I am not saying MWU is a bad school, that is rediculous. Regardless of what anyone says you cannot replace the fact that a school located on a huge medical campus with every single type of discipline imaginable and that is in the top 10 in federal funding for research doesn't have advantages over a school that doesn't meed those criteria. Both schools are perfectly fine. BTW UIC doesn't "give" you the option of what you learn in compounding. We are forced to do it.....


Also students are encourged and actually the curriculum takes us into these hospitals before our 4th year rotations to interview patients and review 'real' patient charts. They incorporate site locations into the classroom didactics way before entering your clinical rotations, instead of waiting for your rotations to start to gain this type of invaluable experience. That is the advantage of having a nice medical campus on site. The possibilities are endless before graduation and you can easily see it all on a daily basis.
 
Well, if Midwestern has increased their class size it's because they have the facilities to do so. I was a pre-pharm student at UIC and I was horrified by the lack of space and funding that was going into the upkeep of the building.

BUT, as many have pointed out, whichever school you pick I am sure you will recieve the same quality education. It's a matter of looking at all of those other things that will help you decide. I live in the city and before I started taking classes at UIC I was soooooo sure UIC's college of pharmacy was where i wanted to go.......until I took a few campus visits to Midwestern and had a chance to see what they can offer.
 
pharmdgto said:
MWU class size was increased to 200. It was orginally 150 like UIC. UIC won't waver like MWU did. Not saying it was bad but they must have cracked under the pressure of the state to increase class size. I am not saying MWU is a bad school, that is rediculous. Regardless of what anyone says you cannot replace the fact that a school located on a huge medical campus with every single type of discipline imaginable and that is in the top 10 in federal funding for research doesn't have advantages over a school that doesn't meed those criteria. Both schools are perfectly fine. BTW UIC doesn't "give" you the option of what you learn in compounding. We are forced to do it.....


Also students are encourged and actually the curriculum takes us into these hospitals before our 4th year rotations to interview patients and review 'real' patient charts. They incorporate site locations into the classroom didactics way before entering your clinical rotations, instead of waiting for your rotations to start to gain this type of invaluable experience. That is the advantage of having a nice medical campus on site. The possibilities are endless before graduation and you can easily see it all on a daily basis.
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Midwestern increased its class size to help the nation deal with the pharmacist shortage. They were easily able to redesign lecture halls and lab rooms. The school has the resources to do so and UIC can't do it as easly because they are a public school. It doesn't decrease the quality of applicants...it allowed for more qualified people to join the pharmacy profession.

As a MWU student you will also be in the hospitals and clinical sites before you start your rotations. You get the exposure in the earlier years and it is incorporated into the curriculum just the same. I am sure that is pretty standard for most pharmacy schools...
 
pharmdgto said:
MWU class size was increased to 200. It was orginally 150 like UIC. UIC won't waver like MWU did. Not saying it was bad but they must have cracked under the pressure of the state to increase class size. I am not saying MWU is a bad school, that is rediculous. Regardless of what anyone says you cannot replace the fact that a school located on a huge medical campus with every single type of discipline imaginable and that is in the top 10 in federal funding for research doesn't have advantages over a school that doesn't meed those criteria. Both schools are perfectly fine. BTW UIC doesn't "give" you the option of what you learn in compounding. We are forced to do it.....


Also students are encourged and actually the curriculum takes us into these hospitals before our 4th year rotations to interview patients and review 'real' patient charts. They incorporate site locations into the classroom didactics way before entering your clinical rotations, instead of waiting for your rotations to start to gain this type of invaluable experience. That is the advantage of having a nice medical campus on site. The possibilities are endless before graduation and you can easily see it all on a daily basis.
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You do realize that Rush is fully partnered with Midwestern, I dont think many UIC students have rotations there. Loyola is also fully partnered with MWU, and no UIC students have rotations there. Yes, you all do have UIC hospital. So basically before you start slamming MWU saying they do not have any large hospital affiliations, you better get your facts straight. Trust me, it will only hurt you later to be dissing MWU grads. There are A LOT Of MWU grads in some very high up places around the Chicago area....
 
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