• SDN Site Updates

    Hey everyone! The site will be down for approximately 2 hours on Thursday, August 5th for site updates.

Winged Scapula

Cougariffic!
Staff member
Volunteer Staff
Apr 9, 2000
39,956
18,683
forums.studentdoctor.net
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
I'm not a regular here, so please excuse my uninvited barging in. Nor do I know if this was discussed last year during the earlier scandal, but there is a new cheating scandal at UMDNJ which hit the front page today...http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-11/1171605217205920.xml&coll=1

I'm sure none of the SDN regulars are involved but thought it might be of interest to those in locations where it wasn't news...yet.
 

floydthefish

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
Mar 30, 2006
39
0
Status (Visible)
  1. Pre-Dental
I'm not a regular here, so please excuse my uninvited barging in. Nor do I know if this was discussed last year during the earlier scandal, but there is a new cheating scandal at UMDNJ which hit the front page today...http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-11/1171605217205920.xml&coll=1

I'm sure none of the SDN regulars are involved but thought it might be of interest to those in locations where it wasn't news...yet.

How are you sure no one from SDN is involved? Seems an odd statement to make.
 
About the Ads

Winged Scapula

Cougariffic!
Staff member
Volunteer Staff
Apr 9, 2000
39,956
18,683
forums.studentdoctor.net
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
How are you sure no one from SDN is involved? Seems an odd statement to make.

Frankly, I'm NOT sure....but figured it would be best to give everyone the benefit of the doubt here. I'm not sure why its an "odd statement" to make - generally most people believe others to be good in nature. I'd like to believe that the vast majority of SDN users are honest, hardworking people - please allow me that delusion until its been proven otherwise! (its one of the reasons why I stay out of The Lounge ;) )

For all I know, this was the website where the test questions were posted (as I know has been a problem before).

Anyway, I thought it was interesting more for the fact that it has happened TWICE in less than 1 year there. One would think that any potential cheaters would have been scared off after the shenanigans last year...not getting your diploma or having to do a year of community service (with a notation of your cheating on your transcript) would seem a rather large deterrent to me.
 

Daurang

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Dec 6, 2006
1,370
266
Status (Visible)
  1. Dentist
This isn't cheating if they simply memorize questions; and they have every right to. If this is cheating, then what do you call this...

I know for a fact there are schools that tell students to each memorize one question on the national board and then jot it down to compile for next year's class board review. Knowing that 1/3 of questions on the boards are new, 1/3 are same concept question, 1/3 are exactly the same, your chance of passing the board by getting 50%-60% correct is drastically increased! This explains why two dental schools may only be two miles from each other yet the passing rate of one is much higher than the other. Then when clinical board comes around, the school with the lower board passing rate have a much higher passing rate for clinical board. There are last year's board floating around (officially, there isn't and there shouldn't be any) because some schools make a concerted effort to boost their ranking.
 

MaxAnn

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Aug 1, 2006
351
14
Status (Visible)
  1. Dentist
This isn't cheating if they simply memorize questions; and they have every right to. If this is cheating, then what do you call this...

I know for a fact there are schools that tell students to each memorize one question on the national board and then jot it down to compile for next year's class board review. Knowing that 1/3 of questions on the boards are new, 1/3 are same concept question, 1/3 are exactly the same, your chance of passing the board by getting 50%-60% correct is drastically increased! This explains why two dental schools may only be two miles from each other yet the passing rate of one is much higher than the other. Then when clinical board comes around, the school with the lower board passing rate have a much higher passing rate for clinical board. There are last year's board floating around (officially, there isn't and there shouldn't be any) because some schools make a concerted effort to boost their ranking.

This is eye-opening since I never considered this option, but it does make sense.

Cheating goes on all over the country, just ask the Air Force Academy. You have to live and die by your own integrity as much as possible.
 

gotgame83

Full Member
10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
May 19, 2004
745
0
Status (Visible)
  1. Medical Student
At UMDNJ all material is property of the school. There have not been any medical school tests released since 1994. We are all told of the rules as are the dental students. I respect many of the dental students as people and as students, however access to materials like this would greatly enhance someones performance and would be a great injustice to those without it. I have an idea of whats going on with this but and if the accused are wrongfully accused then I feel they deserve to complain, however if they are not wrongfully accused then they deserve to be dismissed. Oh and the star ledger needs to get a life... there is more to NJ then UMDNJ problems which we all know they love.
 

Daurang

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Dec 6, 2006
1,370
266
Status (Visible)
  1. Dentist
Those of you with another school nearby, go to their board review and you may get something. Having a friend or even a roommate from the other schools probably won't get you those unreleased exams.
 

S Files

Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Oct 23, 2005
368
3
Status (Visible)
This isn't cheating if they simply memorize questions; and they have every right to. If this is cheating, then what do you call this...

I know for a fact there are schools that tell students to each memorize one question on the national board and then jot it down to compile for next year's class board review. Knowing that 1/3 of questions on the boards are new, 1/3 are same concept question, 1/3 are exactly the same, your chance of passing the board by getting 50%-60% correct is drastically increased! This explains why two dental schools may only be two miles from each other yet the passing rate of one is much higher than the other. Then when clinical board comes around, the school with the lower board passing rate have a much higher passing rate for clinical board. There are last year's board floating around (officially, there isn't and there shouldn't be any) because some schools make a concerted effort to boost their ranking.

this is really hard to believe that a school would tell students to memorize a question....sounds like a rumor gone wild..

back to the original point of the thread, UMDNJ's rep is getting rocked big time. you would think after last yr. the students would be a little more ethical.
 

Daurang

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Dec 6, 2006
1,370
266
Status (Visible)
  1. Dentist
Here's another eye opener for everyone here. One weekend during dental school, my roommate went to a nearby dental school to do an MOD prep and anterior composite prep on the Kilgoreform teeth for his best friend. The best friend from the other school said her school allowed "take-home practical exam" so she'd just have to turn in the finished work the following week for a grade. What do you think the grade would be?
 

capisce?

ssc machine
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Jul 22, 2006
615
1
Status (Visible)
  1. Dentist
Here's another eye opener for everyone here. One weekend during dental school, my roommate went to a nearby dental school to do an MOD prep and anterior composite prep on the Kilgoreform teeth for his best friend. The best friend from the other school said her school allowed "take-home practical exam" so she'd just have to turn in the finished work the following week for a grade. What do you think the grade would be?

Who cares. Worry about yourself. Things will catch up with her when she has a live patient in her chair and she's on the line and unprepared. These things have a way of catching up to people.
 

Daurang

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Dec 6, 2006
1,370
266
Status (Visible)
  1. Dentist
I agree. Just stating the facts in comparision to this New Jersey case.
 
About the Ads

Jaybe

Lazy Tongs
10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Nov 30, 2006
404
2
Status (Visible)
  1. Resident [Any Field]
This isn't cheating if they simply memorize questions; and they have every right to. If this is cheating, then what do you call this...

I know for a fact there are schools that tell students to each memorize one question on the national board and then jot it down to compile for next year's class board review. Knowing that 1/3 of questions on the boards are new, 1/3 are same concept question, 1/3 are exactly the same, your chance of passing the board by getting 50%-60% correct is drastically increased! This explains why two dental schools may only be two miles from each other yet the passing rate of one is much higher than the other. Then when clinical board comes around, the school with the lower board passing rate have a much higher passing rate for clinical board. There are last year's board floating around (officially, there isn't and there shouldn't be any) because some schools make a concerted effort to boost their ranking.


Sounds like the type of school that would charge 60,000 per year and not rank their students. . .
 

QCkid

Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Oct 7, 2004
220
0
Status (Visible)
this is really hard to believe that a school would tell students to memorize a question....sounds like a rumor gone wild..

The school doesn't do it. The students have a tradition of organizing it and making it happen every year. It happens at some of the schools with the highest averages. I know for a fact that it happens as I have seen some of the files from a school which shall not be named(not my school).
 

gaba101

Doctor
10+ Year Member
Dec 19, 2006
322
2
45
Pittsburg
Status (Visible)
  1. Academic Administration
This isn't cheating if they simply memorize questions; and they have every right to. If this is cheating, then what do you call this....

Hi all, I am a pharmacy student but nevertheless, the type of professional field is not important in this case. A couple of points.

1--I never thought one would get caught cheating for this. I remember once discussing this w/ my friend, who has an absolutely sharp memory for remembering specific questions & question # from the exam (she'll be like "what did you get for #27?" and I'll be like uh, give me the context of the quesiton, I don't remember question #s.") I was like "girl, w/ t hat kind of memory, you should just go straight to the computer after the exam and type out all the questions you can remember for next year's class." Who knew it'd be cheating. I still don't think it is. I just thought it was cool b/c she had a sharp memory and it'd be a nice gift to someone else.


2--yes, i agree with you that I don't think it's cheating. we have a right to memorize the questions. I paid to go to the school to take the test and I believe by my 1st amendment that after the exam the info that went into my brain (test q uestions and answer choices) is my property and I should be able to use my freedom of speech to do what I want w/ it. I believe my 1st amendment allows for this?? having said this, recently (maybe 2 yrs ago), a CA pharmacist had his license revoked because he (Cody Morris, I think), who ran a Board of Pharmacy test review, asked all his students to memorize as many questions as possible and then tell him so he could have a bank of real Board questions. Well, Board of Pharmacy found out & discplined him by banning him from ever practicing pharmacy int he state of CA. this is pretty bull$hit, I must say (see b ullet point 5 for more details). Yeah, i agree, as a pharamcist, you must really know your $hit and should not cheat. I am cool w/ that. But dude, each test taker is a citizen of the US and we are entitled to free speech (including transmitting test questions from the paper to our eyes to our brains to someone else).

3--yes, from a public's point of view, I agree, i'd want my dentist, pharamcist, physician, optometrist who's working on ME to know his/her $hit before I trust them with my health.

4--However, if anyone's studied off of old exams, one doesn't just memorize the answers but actually works thru them (w/ friends) and try to reason out why the correct answers are correct and the incorrect answers are incorrect. (addressing the administrators' concern and reason for being against old exams)--hell, I bet when they were students, they, at one point in their life, also turned to old exams.

5--From a student's point of view, I think much of a student's school behavior is reflective of his/her professor's teaching behavior. I don't care if the prof is some world renowned professor--if they're going to be lazy @$$holes and tap into their test bank of questions instead of using their brain cells to come up w/ questions (and students will know that by the kind of response the prof gives to students who ask for old exam questions as samples), their behavior merely suggests to students s/he doesn't care so why should the student? I don't buy that bull$hit about how "it is really hard to come up with really good questions to truly test students' knowledge and that is why we recycle questions." bull****--if you're such a great professor and are so smart (much smarter than I, the student), you are clearly capable of coming up with additional "great questions" and if it's because you don't have enough hours in the day between your busy schedule & work/school, well, welcome to our (students') life.

The end.
 

beezies

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Jan 15, 2006
169
0
Beantown
Status (Visible)
  1. Pre-Dental
I think that they've finally gotten the point at our school, if you let students use old exams as study materials it's great preparation. It's a great learning tool. The problem is that there are some lazy ass teachers that would rather recycle a question for 20 years than try to write a new one. I think that they should have to use new questions for every year.

One of the best classes at Tufts is Dental Anatomy, and I think everyone learns so much because the teachers provide all exams and quizzes from the past five years. You know what they want you to think of, and you know that they aren't going to repeat a single question even though they do obviously repeat the material. So much better than memorizing a question and not knowing what the hell it means.
 

Winged Scapula

Cougariffic!
Staff member
Volunteer Staff
Apr 9, 2000
39,956
18,683
forums.studentdoctor.net
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
AOh and the star ledger needs to get a life... there is more to NJ then UMDNJ problems which we all know they love.

Of course, they have to have something to talk about between articles about government graft and corruption. I've never been so interested in reading the general news since I moved to this state...there always something shady going on!:rolleyes:
 

Duckie24

Totally Quackers!
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
May 28, 2004
161
0
Status (Visible)
2--yes, i agree with you that I don't think it's cheating. we have a right to memorize the questions. I paid to go to the school to take the test and I believe by my 1st amendment that after the exam the info that went into my brain (test q uestions and answer choices) is my property and I should be able to use my freedom of speech to do what I want w/ it. I believe my 1st amendment allows for this??
The questions aren't your property. There are disclaimers and fine print everywhere. If you really think the questions are your property just because you pay to take an exam, then try posting the questions from your next national board exam. Good luck with that. I know for sure on the USMLE exams that it says everywhere on every piece of paper like 100 times over that the questions are the property of the NBME and they are not to be distributed.

While I agree with you that old tests are a great learning tool, I also see the point of the administration about releasing old tests due to trying to develop a bank of test questions. My school actually went through all this with special committees and such a couple years ago with which I was seriously involved. I think you probably don't want the profs coming up with new questions every year because they are most likely going to come up with some seriously esoteric bs that you will complain about afterwards just as much, if not more. It's a no-win situation for them, the profs that is.
 

S Files

Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Oct 23, 2005
368
3
Status (Visible)
The school doesn't do it. The students have a tradition of organizing it and making it happen every year. It happens at some of the schools with the highest averages. I know for a fact that it happens as I have seen some of the files from a school which shall not be named(not my school).


read the post i was responding to.
 

gaba101

Doctor
10+ Year Member
Dec 19, 2006
322
2
45
Pittsburg
Status (Visible)
  1. Academic Administration
The questions aren't your property. There are disclaimers and fine print everywhere. If you really think the questions are your property just because you pay to take an exam, then try posting the questions from your next national board exam. Good luck with that. I know for sure on the USMLE exams that it says everywhere on every piece of paper like 100 times over that the questions are the property of the NBME and they are not to be distributed.

While I agree with you that old tests are a great learning tool, I also see the point of the administration about releasing old tests due to trying to develop a bank of test questions. My school actually went through all this with special committees and such a couple years ago with which I was seriously involved. I think you probably don't want the profs coming up with new questions every year because they are most likely going to come up with some seriously esoteric bs that you will complain about afterwards just as much, if not more. It's a no-win situation for them, the profs that is.


so I have to relinquish my free dom of speech?? Great US Constitution. that's bull. really bull. i dont give a rats ass what the USMLE, board, or prof say--if I had the sharp memory and could memorize them and regurg them, i will. it's my mind and my freedom of speech. i think if i had the sharp memory, i would wnat to memorize national board questions too and post htem (under a fake account, of course). but all I care about is passing the board (i'd be too busy making sure I was answering the question correctly than memorizing the questions). just a few more years until i never have to see professors again! wahoo!
 

DrBowtie

Final Countdown
Moderator Emeritus
10+ Year Member
Feb 24, 2005
15,463
1,904
Classyville
Status (Visible)
  1. Resident [Any Field]
so I have to relinquish my free dom of speech?? Great US Constitution. that's bull. really bull. i dont give a rats ass what the USMLE, board, or prof say--if I had the sharp memory and could memorize them and regurg them, i will. it's my mind and my freedom of speech. i think if i had the sharp memory, i would wnat to memorize national board questions too and post htem (under a fake account, of course). but all I care about is passing the board (i'd be too busy making sure I was answering the question correctly than memorizing the questions). just a few more years until i never have to see professors again! wahoo!
Freedom of Speech doesn't trump the fact that the tests are their intellectual property.
 

aphistis

Full Member
Moderator Emeritus
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Feb 15, 2003
8,394
37
Indianapolis
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
  2. Dentist
so I have to relinquish my free dom of speech?? Great US Constitution. that's bull. really bull. i dont give a rats ass what the USMLE, board, or prof say--if I had the sharp memory and could memorize them and regurg them, i will. it's my mind and my freedom of speech. i think if i had the sharp memory, i would wnat to memorize national board questions too and post htem (under a fake account, of course). but all I care about is passing the board (i'd be too busy making sure I was answering the question correctly than memorizing the questions). just a few more years until i never have to see professors again! wahoo!
Every day, I'm surprised anew at how many people apparently slept through their high school government class.
 
About the Ads

Daurang

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Dec 6, 2006
1,370
266
Status (Visible)
  1. Dentist
Is it just my bias or is New Jersey more disproportionately corrupted from top to bottom?
 

Dental Dork 09

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Jan 24, 2007
90
0
Status (Visible)
Is it just my bias or is New Jersey more disproportionately corrupted from top to bottom?

2 years ago NJ was ranked the most corupt state in the union at every level. From the governor's office down to local levels.

My aunt and uncle live there and showed me the article. They saved it somewhere so I'll have to call them up and ask what paper published it.
 

johntara04

Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Mar 23, 2005
585
0
Status (Visible)
so I have to relinquish my free dom of speech?? Great US Constitution. that's bull. really bull. i dont give a rats ass what the USMLE, board, or prof say--if I had the sharp memory and could memorize them and regurg them, i will. it's my mind and my freedom of speech. i think if i had the sharp memory, i would wnat to memorize national board questions too and post htem (under a fake account, of course). but all I care about is passing the board (i'd be too busy making sure I was answering the question correctly than memorizing the questions). just a few more years until i never have to see professors again! wahoo!

No one said you had to reliquish your freedom of speech. You can do whatever you want to do. Just be prepared to deal with the consequences of your actions (whether good or bad).
 

Winged Scapula

Cougariffic!
Staff member
Volunteer Staff
Apr 9, 2000
39,956
18,683
forums.studentdoctor.net
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
Is it just my bias or is New Jersey more disproportionately corrupted from top to bottom?

It is NOT your bias. Ever since I moved here for fellowship, I have been constantly amazed at the level of crime and corruption amongst the government, law enforcement and general populace. It makes reading the daily paper very interesting, if not disturbing.
 

MaxAnn

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Aug 1, 2006
351
14
Status (Visible)
  1. Dentist
2 years ago NJ was ranked the most corupt state in the union at every level. From the governor's office down to local levels.

My aunt and uncle live there and showed me the article. They saved it somewhere so I'll have to call them up and ask what paper published it.

What was number one?
 

gaba101

Doctor
10+ Year Member
Dec 19, 2006
322
2
45
Pittsburg
Status (Visible)
  1. Academic Administration
Every day, I'm surprised anew at how many people apparently slept through their high school government class.

Don't be surprised about me sleeping through govt class. I actually didn't have to take high school government class.
 

Lemming

Hello
10+ Year Member
Sep 7, 2006
473
0
Oregon
Status (Visible)
  1. Dental Student
Every day, I'm surprised anew at how many people apparently slept through their high school government class.
They were to busy studying old tests and didn't learn anything;)

I occasionally use old tests that are available to review right before the test, after I have studied. I find that if I use them while studying, I don't feel like I know ALL of the material very well.

Now about the freedom of speech...ok fine, you have the freedom to say whatever you want, but YOU still have to take responsibility for what you say and do. I guess most everyone who slept through that high school govt. class also slept through ethics class also. It is in you intentions that students go wrong here. Most often, they are trying to outsmart the professor, so that they can get easy points, otherwise they would be happy with what the professor provides. Just because the government gives you freedom of speech, doesn't make it right. Trying running around at school screaming racial slurs and see what happens. Did you have the right by the consitution, yes, but does the school as an institution have the right to discipline you, yes. I guess it doensn't really matter, because if you don't get ethics, you probably never will, or don't care to. Just try to think ethically about what you are doing before you do it, and maybe you'll be ok with the repercussions instead of worrying about your "rights".
 

Jaybe

Lazy Tongs
10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Nov 30, 2006
404
2
Status (Visible)
  1. Resident [Any Field]
so I have to relinquish my free dom of speech?? Great US Constitution. that's bull. really bull. i dont give a rats ass what the USMLE, board, or prof say--if I had the sharp memory and could memorize them and regurg them, i will. it's my mind and my freedom of speech. i think if i had the sharp memory, i would wnat to memorize national board questions too and post htem (under a fake account, of course). but all I care about is passing the board (i'd be too busy making sure I was answering the question correctly than memorizing the questions). just a few more years until i never have to see professors again! wahoo!

Nobody said you had to "relinquish" your "free dom" of speech.

Do you think freedom of speech protects your right to yell "FIRE" in a crowded theater?

Does freedom of speech protect your right to spin a tale to a judge or jury if you are called to testify in a court proceeding?

Does freedom of speech protect your right to distribute pornographic material to elementary students during their recess time?

Does freedom of speech protect your right to publicly slander another individual?

Freedom of Speech was never intended to protect your right to say or do anything you want whenever you want to do it. There are other laws in this country that temper the broadest interpretations of the Constitution.
 

rals

Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Jul 30, 2005
357
0
Status (Visible)
  1. Dental Student
you can exercise a freedom "freely" as long as doing so doesn't infringe on others' freedoms. limits do arise.
 

dentalwannabee

busy bee
10+ Year Member
Feb 3, 2007
125
0
Status (Visible)
  1. Dental Student
Sounds like the type of school that would charge 60,000 per year and not rank their students. . .

Just curious, which school is this (the $60000 and no rankings)? Someone please PM me if they prefer.
 

Sprgrover

Pulped out Moderator
Moderator Emeritus
10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Jun 4, 2004
4,034
5
Philadelphia, PA
Status (Visible)
It is NOT your bias. Ever since I moved here for fellowship, I have been constantly amazed at the level of crime and corruption amongst the government, law enforcement and general populace. It makes reading the daily paper very interesting, if not disturbing.

Lol. Last year when Camden was named the most violent/dangerous city in the nation the mayor the city had screaming fit on television - which went a long way towards his cause. I'm across the river from Jersey but the City of Brotherly Shove is rife with the same material - I used to be horrified about news of shootings and robbery but have now accepted both my life with the locals and their antics.
 

natsipoo

Member
15+ Year Member
May 31, 2005
68
0
TX
Status (Visible)
  1. Dentist
Who cares. Worry about yourself. Things will catch up with her when she has a live patient in her chair and she's on the line and unprepared. These things have a way of catching up to people.

But should the patient have to suffer?
 

capisce?

ssc machine
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Jul 22, 2006
615
1
Status (Visible)
  1. Dentist
But should the patient have to suffer?

Patients don't suffer because it's a tightly controlled environment where faculty checks miniscule steps along the way. And yes, patients who pay less for care in a dental school know they are receiving treatment from students in the middle of the learning process.
 

aphistis

Full Member
Moderator Emeritus
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Feb 15, 2003
8,394
37
Indianapolis
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
  2. Dentist
Patients don't suffer because it's a tightly controlled environment where faculty checks miniscule steps along the way. And yes, patients who pay less for care in a dental school know they are receiving treatment from students in the middle of the learning process.
...but remarkably, they show up anyway.

Some of them, at least, when it's not too inconvenient to roll out of bed in time for a 1:30 appointment that Medicaid is paying for in full.
 
About the Ads
This thread is more than 14 years old.

Your message may be considered spam for the following reasons:

  1. Your new thread title is very short, and likely is unhelpful.
  2. Your reply is very short and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  3. Your reply is very long and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  4. It is very likely that it does not need any further discussion and thus bumping it serves no purpose.
  5. Your message is mostly quotes or spoilers.
  6. Your reply has occurred very quickly after a previous reply and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  7. This thread is locked.