Unbelievable but true

[rafflecopter]

Hopefully you won't go into gerontology. Why spend all that money and time on someone who is going to die soon anyway? DNR every person over 50 and deny them medical insurance. Why treat someone with pancreatic cancer? They're going to die soon anyway probably.

Wow, comparing a preemie who would have died without modern sciences intervention and never have had a life with an older person whose had a normal life and needs care as they age is ludicrous. Many of these preemies are doomed and will never be able to live without intervention. Others will barely live, but have debilitating complications for the rest of their lives. I hate this mentality of "keep everyone alive for as long as possible no questions asked" - sometimes keeping someone alive is the worst thing you could do for them.

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[MightyMoose]

Hopefully you won't go into gerontology. Why spend all that money and time on someone who is going to die soon anyway? DNR every person over 50 and deny them medical insurance. Why treat someone with pancreatic cancer? They're going to die soon anyway probably.

AZ has pulled funding towards transplant patients they deem too high a risk. I know you're being facetious, but some states are edging closer to that plan than some would like.

 

[alwaysaangel]

Hopefully you won't go into gerontology. Why spend all that money and time on someone who is going to die soon anyway? DNR every person over 50 and deny them medical insurance. Why treat someone with pancreatic cancer? They're going to die soon anyway probably.

Sorry. If you ever see a 25 week old premie in person you may change your mind. With a ventilator, feeding tube, lungs failing, can't cry, can't see, multiple surgeries... It is absolutely tragic to make them suffer through that.

But since you bring it up, yes I also believe we spend too much money on end of life care. 95% of healthcare expenses occur in the last 6 months of life with little extension of life or improvement of quality of life. Its time we start letting 90 year old grandma enjoy her last months in hospice focusing on comfort care instead of on a ventilator in the ICU being coded every other day with every rib broken in multiple placed by the time you're done.

I assure you, once I am older than 70 or so if I have multiple medical problems and am unlikely to recover from cardiac arrest I will certainly make myself DNR/DNI. In fact, I already have a verbal living will with my parents and SO in case I was in a horrible wreck or something...if its been a week and I'm not waking up and it doesn't seem like I will, let me go - no hoping for miracles. Modern medicine is horrific in a lot of ways.

 

[theacks1]

Amongst all of the disturbing things in that article, I'd like to point out this one:


A high school student was administering intravenous anesthesia.

For me it has to be the last two paragraph of the BBC article I read (at work and don't have time to see if is in the linked article)

Mr. Williams said regulators received a number of complaints agains the Women's Medical Society but none provoked an investigation.

Dr. Gosnell and clinic workers were ultimately arrested when law enforcement officers raided the clinic seeking evidence of <b>illegal prescription selling</b>

Apparently, this place was brought up several times, and it is prescription selling which gets someone to finally act?

 

[Hoody]

Yes, after months in a NICU, several million dollars and many mental and physical problems because of asphyxia and other complications

or we could just do a CABG X6 on that 80 year old. or code freaking everybody in the freaking OR. or detox that 45 year old dude for the 20th time in 2 years (and today he's golden showered your face). I always like the twenty something anoxic brain injuries that were smokin' fentanyl patches. LTAC anyone? weeeeeeeee, trach and peg for me!

24 weeks (20?) whatever is the cut-off for the minimum viable life.....what's the damn maximum?

I'm not trying to imply anything, just devils advocate.

EDIT: N/M, you already replied...

 

[RynoTheGuy]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2043166,00.html This is a disturbing article about a doc who was performing illegal late term abortions/murdering newborns.

Hopefully justice is swift and this piece of garbage (along with his appalling staff) burn for a long, long time. Mercy should be spared for monsters such a this.

 

[RynoTheGuy]

Yeah, the legalisms of abortion are pretty awful. Keep in mind that in over a dozen states it's perfectly legal to kill a term infant if it's still in the womb. You inject in with something to kill it and no crime has occured. The only national law concerning abortion (which only passed in 2003) is the partial birth abortion act, which state that you can't kill a term child by disarticulating it's neck when it's partway out of the mother (intact dilation and extraction). So to review, a woman goes into labor (induced or otherwise) and:

1) You inject her infant with poison before she begins to deliver. It dies a terrible death. No crime has occured.

2) You break the child's neck when it's feet are still in the mother: You've performed an illegal procedure and you're going to jail for a maximum 2 years.

3) You break the child's neck when it's lying on the table after delivery: you're a murderer.

WTF is wrong with our system?

Because it's inundated by political correctness and liberal idiots who "justify" murder.

I agree though- our system is freaking screwed up.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Because it's inundated by political correctness and liberal idiots who "justify" murder.

I agree though- our system is freaking screwed up.

 

[MightyMoose]

Because it's inundated by political correctness and liberal idiots who "justify" murder.

I agree though- our system is freaking screwed up.

Hmmm, that sounds fishy... I think the law restricts abortions to within 24 weeks, but you will still be very hard pressed to find a physician that will abort a fetus post 20 weeks. I am very pro-choice, so I see no problem with abortions <20wks, although, I think the ideal time-frame would be within the first trimester.

 

[Swagster]

I was thinking the article was a spark to start a fire fight between two political sides that can't stop fighting. Instead, what I read took my breath away. I want to be as open minded on things as reasonable, but this is just sick and wrong.

 

[Geekchick921]

I felt sick reading that article. Really, I could hurl. That is some of the sickest stuff I have ever read. Aborted babies in jars?! Right now I wish they still boiled people in oil because that sick f*** deserves to deep-fry.

Why can't you legally do abortions after 24 weeks? Where do they come up with this number?

As Prowler said, 24 weeks is generally considered viability.

Hmmm, that sounds fishy... I think the law restricts abortions to within 24 weeks, but you will still be very hard pressed to find a physician that will abort a fetus post 20 weeks. I am very pro-choice, so I see no problem with abortions <20wks, although, I think it would be ideal time would be within the first trimester.

I'm pro-choice (bad Catholic) but while Ob/Gyn is one of my top choices of specialty right now (always has been), I will not perform elective abortion procedures; I'll refer my patients. I think I'd have to refer my patients for later terminations because of severe birth defects that aren't compatible with life. I just don't think I could be the one to give the injection that stops the baby's heart.

 

[mishaS]

I'm glad I'm not the only who sees the complete lack of ethical difference between early term and later term abortions here. From a moral standpoint, I'm personally against abortion, however it's stories like this which demonstrate what happens when abortion is illegalized.

 

[Ursa]

Of course this had to turn into an abortion debate. Let's face it, there are and always will be two sides to the abortion debate, but what this guy did belongs in a completely different conversation.

Right now I wish they still boiled people in oil because that sick f*** deserves to deep-fry.

qft, right on geeks

 

[Hoody]

Right now I wish they still boiled people in oil because that sick f*** deserves to deep-fry.

+1.

I am so not reading that article. I'm totally pro-choice, but only with early term..which is like 9 weeks? I think until then you can take a PO poison pill. So you could just provide access to the service (via scrip?) rather than providing the physical service (injecting baby hearts).

 

[RogueUnicorn]

does anybody else have a sudden craving for french fries?

 

[MightyMoose]

I'm pro-choice (bad Catholic) but while Ob/Gyn is one of my top choices of specialty right now (always has been), I will not perform elective abortion procedures; I'll refer my patients. I think I'd have to refer my patients for later terminations because of severe birth defects that aren't compatible with life. I just don't think I could be the one to give the injection that stops the baby's heart.

I hear you on that. I'm staying as far away from OB as possible, so I don't really think I'll need to ever worry about being 'the guy'. I don't know if I could do it either, given I were the one who had to do it. Now I could easily put down this doc from the article. I wouldn't bat an eye, nor miss a minutes sleep after doing so either.

 

[Ursa]

does anybody else have a sudden craving for french fries?

barf

 

[Bacchus]

Hopefully you won't go into gerontology. Why spend all that money and time on someone who is going to die soon anyway? DNR every person over 50 and deny them medical insurance. Why treat someone with pancreatic cancer? They're going to die soon anyway probably.

She's being realistic. Pancreatic cancer was a bad example on your behalf since the statistics we were given shows about 100 5 year survival rates out of tens-of-thousands diagnoses each year.

We're not saying do not attempt, but America has a grossly inadequate understanding of end-of-life care and doesn't realize the definition of futile. Its bankrupting families, taxing the healthcare system, and just doing general no-good for the country.

 

[StudyShy]

She's being realistic. Pancreatic cancer was a bad example on your behalf since the statistics we were given shows about 100 5 year survival rates out of tens-of-thousands diagnoses each year.

We're not saying do not attempt, but America has a grossly inadequate understanding of end-of-life care and doesn't realize the definition of futile. Its bankrupting families, taxing the healthcare system, and just doing general no-good for the country.

Why would pancreatic cancer be a bad example? The diagnosis of pancreatic cancer is still considered a death sentence to many. A n=100 out of tens of thousands of people after 5 years is pretty crappy. Therefore, why suffer through painful, expensive, and nauseating treatments when life will only be extended by only a few months? Personally, if I were diagnosed with pancreatic cancer I would not seek treatment.

Sorry. If you ever see a 25 week old premie in person you may change your mind. With a ventilator, feeding tube, lungs failing, can't cry, can't see, multiple surgeries... It is absolutely tragic to make them suffer through that.
And I have seen babies that young.

Don't just assume that I haven't. I have seen a baby borne in a toilet; women bringing the babies that they have miscarried in plastic bags; and other women who have had precipitous labor and deliver very pre-term babies. It is a very tragic thing, but I don't see the difference why it is okay to prolong the life of someone on the opposite age spectrum. An old person "with a ventilator, feeding tube, lungs failing..." is a similarily painful experience for the patient and for the family members who want everything done for gramps to live just one more day. The decision to let live or let die has to be the same for everyone to be fair. Of course, we know life is not fair, but this is ideal.

I say an IUD for every uterus that does not want to become pregnant. I considered abortion as a highly inappropriate solution when a person does not take precautions when having sex. There are other reasons where the moral line becomes more blurring: rape, incest, and fetal defects. For the most part, however, people should take greater responsibility for their actions.

Vera Drake was an interesting movie for those who are pro-choice or who want to learn more. That is one of the problems with making abortions illegal. People will still choose to abort, and many women will die.

 

[LizzyM]

Sorry. If you ever see a 25 week old premie in person you may change your mind. With a ventilator, feeding tube, lungs failing, can't cry, can't see, multiple surgeries... It is absolutely tragic to make them suffer through that.

The grand jury report out of Philly describes a women who was told she was 21 weeks along. She started the two day abortion procedure, changed her mind, and ended up at the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania where they remove the laminaria that had been inserted. She delivered a few days later, it turned out she was actually 29 weeks pregnant , and according to the grand jury report, today the child is a healthy kindergarten student. (page 86-7 of grand jury report)

http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/PDFs/GrandJuryWomensMedical.pdf

This grand jury report is nearly 300 pages in length and stunning. As awful as this "provider" was, the government agencies and officials who are charged in protecting the health of women and infants born alive during abortion procedures were negligent. Access to abortion was held to be more important than patient safety.

 

[Bacchus]

Why would pancreatic cancer be a bad example? The diagnosis of pancreatic cancer is still considered a death sentence to many. A n=100 out of tens of thousands of people after 5 years is pretty crappy. Therefore, why suffer through painful, expensive, and nauseating treatments when life will only be extended by only a few months? Personally, if I were diagnosed with pancreatic cancer I would not seek treatment.

Your tone was heavy in what I thought to be sarcasm so I'd have to assume your entire post was that way.

 

[CecilJacobson]

This KermitGosnell is an absolute monster. I hope nobody compares me to him. I was only trying to bring more happy babies into the world.

-CecilJacobson

 

[Perrotfish]

Of course this had to turn into an abortion debate. Let's face it, there are and always will be two sides to the abortion debate, but what this guy did belongs in a completely different conversation.

Why? Late term abortions, right up until delivery, are in fact legal in over a dozen states. What this guy did to the babies (risks to his patients aside) was seperated from being legal by a matter of hours, not months. It seems like the continued legality of late term abortions, nationwide, is at the very least a part of this conversation. If you don't like seeing a baby's throat cut a few minutes after delivery how in the world do you justify stopping it's heart a few minutes before delivery?

 

[ILikeDrugs]

A CNN report actually states the names and charges brought upon all the people who worked there. Two of them are actually medical school graduates but did not have a license. So a total of 3 quacks were working as "physicians".


This other site actually has a picture of one of his "trophies": a tiny person inside a jar. Any idea on how many weeks?

http://www.buzzbaba.com/kermit-gosnell-buzz-baba-20110119/

 

[gettheleadout]

Why? Late term abortions, right up until delivery, are in fact legal in over a dozen states. What this guy did to the babies (risks to his patients aside) was seperated from being legal by a matter of hours, not months. It seems like the continued legality of late term abortions, nationwide, is at the very least a part of this conversation. If you don't like seeing a baby's throat cut a few minutes after delivery how in the world do you justify stopping it's heart a few minutes before delivery?

I agree that those two should be synonymous and it's stupid that the law differentiates between them so narrowly. The problem with abortion debates (which I hope we'll be able to avoid here, we're all intelligent people right?) is when people take extreme sides. Make all abortion illegal and it will happen anyway in much more dangerous fashions. Make all abortions legal and you have the issue that late term abortions can be way too late and constitute legal murder. Enter equal protection under the law. *Breakdown*

 

[Zorro1019]

I'm glad I'm not the only who sees the complete lack of ethical difference between early term and later term abortions here. From a moral standpoint, I'm personally against abortion, however it's stories like this which demonstrate what happens when abortion is illegalized.

The illegality of late term abortion allowed this monster to exist. Perhaps he would not have a market for his butchery if there were legal options.

Perhaps a larger question is why women seek late term abortions in the first place? What if anything can we as a society and a profession do to allow women earlier safer choices? How can we ensure that nobody else rises to fill the despicable niche vacated by the arrest of this man?

 

[monkeyMD]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/20/pennsylvania.abortion.doctor/index.html?hpt=T2

 

[GooseWing]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=789686

 

[lacrosse87]

Ya know...I actually live only a couple blocks from that clinic. Definitely not the best neighborhood, despite it's proximity to Penn & Drexel. I'd walk past it after work and always wonder exactly what that place was. I just assumed it was some family practitioner's office that worked primarily with woman's health. I had no idea it was an abortion clinic.

I probably first noticed the place in October/November. The place looks really shoddy, the window blinds look in disarray and it always seemed dark and empty. It always seemed strange that there was a "medical office" there when Penn Presbyterian Hospital is only a block away. This is the first I've heard about this...I'm feeling sick just thinking about...horrible.

 

[gettheleadout]

edit: nvm I like Goose's response better

 

[Mithril]

.

 

[Ursa]

Why? Late term abortions, right up until delivery, are in fact legal in over a dozen states. What this guy did to the babies (risks to his patients aside) was seperated from being legal by a matter of hours, not months. It seems like the continued legality of late term abortions, nationwide, is at the very least a part of this conversation. If you don't like seeing a baby's throat cut a few minutes after delivery how in the world do you justify stopping it's heart a few minutes before delivery?

First bolded statement: His method of abortion is an additional factor; it's not just about the timing in this case.

Second bolded statement: I don't. Did you really just say that?

You cannot be serious with this post.

 

[WingedOx]

AZ has pulled funding towards transplant patients they deem too high a risk. I know you're being facetious, but some states are edging closer to that plan than some would like.

I think that has more to do with the fact that said state is run by a radiology tech.

 

[goldenwest]

Christopher Thompson, MD, 60, Los Angeles
GUILTY, "Road Rage" car vs bicyclists case
"I'm important. I save lives. It's my right to kill a few."

This site is pissing me off!

 

[Ignatius M.D.]

Christopher Thompson, MD, 60, Los Angeles
GUILTY, "Road Rage" car vs bicyclists case
"I'm important. I save lives. It's my right to kill a few."

This site is pissing me off!

A little further down from Dr.Thompson: [FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]"Yes. I have women undress to properly assess their headaches & colds. I believe in being thorough.".

 

[apumic]

Hopefully you won't go into gerontology. Why spend all that money and time on someone who is going to die soon anyway? DNR every person over 50 and deny them medical insurance. Why treat someone with pancreatic cancer? They're going to die soon anyway probably.

While what you are saying is extreme, there is an element of truth to what you are saying. At some pt, we end up with futile care. If and when it is no longer cost-effective to keep someone alive and when further care is unlikely to make a substantial change in their outcome, it is a medical provider's duty to society to cut off futile care. There has to be some pt at which society at large says "NO!" to requests to spend even more money. The reality is that resources are limited. If you [only] have 1 heart to transplant and two victims in need that are both equally in need and equally qualified for that organ, which do you give the transplant to -- the 30-y/o male in good health (minus his fatal congenital heart defect) or the obese 65-y/o female (whose life expectancy post-surgery is probably <5 yrs and whose heart failure is likely due to lifestyle)? The reality is that decisions like this have to be made every day. Resources are always limited.

 

[G Darn Pissed]

I would like those who read this story, and had a visceral reaction to hearing how the babies died, to show some empathy for the hard core pro-lifers.

For them, this kind of thing happens everyday, a holocaust times a million.

Edit: actually, maybe times only two haha, but the comparison still stands

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I would like those who read this story, and had a visceral reaction to hearing how the babies died, to show some empathy for the hard core pro-lifers.

For them, this kind of thing happens everyday, a holocaust times a million.

jesus christ

 

[Hoody]

jesus christ

seriously.

 

[gettheleadout]

I would like those who read this story, and had a visceral reaction to hearing how the babies died, to show some empathy for the hard core pro-lifers.

For them, this kind of thing happens everyday, a holocaust times a million.

I find it hard to empathize with the fact that their illogical extremist views cause reality to disturb them.

Also drama much.

 

[MilkmanAl]

For them, this kind of thing happens everyday, a holocaust times a million.

6 trillion babies a day?!

 

[Hoody]

More than likely miseprostol pills that are injected vaginally and not taken orally to induce an elective early term abortion. Works even better if you pulverize the pills and inject it with aseptic gel. I've done the procedure myself a handful of times on patients with dead retained embryos to induce an artificial abortion of an already dead product from a natural miscarriage. Interestingly miseprostol is an over-the-counter drug in Mexico yet most people that wish to have an elective early abortion don't know how easy it is to get it.

uhhhh, no. here in the states, its two pills swallowed (mifeprex) and within the next 24-72hrs, two more pills (misoprostol) are swallowed. this is one of two options offered to women who less then 9 weeks and its like 97% effective or something.

 

[G Darn Pissed]

FUN FACT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/23/nyregion/23critic.html?ref=health

40% of pregnancies in NY end in abortion.

about 35 million since roe v wade

I do not agree that abortion should be outlawed, but as a means of birth control? that's gross.

Use a condom!

 

[StudyShy]

You have yet to understand how a IUD works. Unless it's a Myrena, it works in a sort of similar manner as the after day pill by not allowing an embryo from attaching it to the uterine wall. Doesn't kill the embryo per se, but many people for reasons I can respect are religiously against using them. I always give my patients in outpatient clinic that want one a quick warning how the IUD works in case a woman has second thoughts and would prefer a different method.

Not every woman has the right shape and length of a uterus for an IUD and many women suffer from hypermenorrhea which merits having it removed. I once saw a painful cystoscopy to have an IUD that got lodged inside of a falopian tube removed. However many patients can wear them for years without any problems. I always believe find the right method for the right patient. However I could agree that an IUD for any woman that qualifies that had previous preeclampsia and is still relatively young to be a well intentioned idea albeit illegal without her consent which can be frustating because you know she'll come back even worse in 10 months or less.

I do know the basics of both the Mirena and the Paraguard; however, there is still a lot of controversy about how the Paraguard, in specific, prevents pregnancy. "An IUD for every uterus" is a saying that I've heard many times in the hospital. You could also say "BC for every woman who does not want to become pregnant" If you don't like BC, at least use FAM to not become pregnant in guidance with whatever religious doctrines practiced.

I have seen complications from the Paraguard but no personally from the Mirena. Yes, I've seen women come in bleeding through >1 tampon/pad an hr. This is common during the first six months and may persist longer. An IUD would be contraindicated in such a patient. I have seen a patient come in with a perforated uterus twice from an IUD. Other methods of birth control have problems too. Some people also think that BCP's might interfere with the lining of the uterus that also prevents implantation. Women who take BCP's may have complications such as nausea, increased weight gain, and blood clots. Interestingly, I think that I read once that 50% of Chinese women have IUDs.

I would assume that breastfeeding would have a smililar effect for a women as that of an IUD if the primary method of prevention of pregnancy is indeed related to prohibiting inplantation. Many have luteal phase defects (less than 9 days) while breastfeeding which does not permit a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus before menses occurs. Although, it is a far-fetched idea that is innocent and condoned from a religious standpoint. Breastfeeding, for some, is an indirect act of abortion. That would sure dampen a La Leche meeting.

 

[Narmerguy]

I find it hard to empathize with the fact that their illogical extremist views cause reality to disturb them.

Also drama much.

I understand you not agreeing with their views but you can't really make the blanket argument that they are illogical.

This article was very hard to read. I had to put the computer down multiple times before resuming. That's absolutely disgusting. I'd send him to a prison where the other inmates can give him some "special care".