Unbelievable but true

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Thing1

Thing1

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Doing the exact same thing that this man has done, none of the Obstetricians in China would ever be charged. It is unfortunate how intolerable the society is towards pregnancy outside marriage.
 
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That was very disturbing. Not just that this guy did the things that he did, but also that the parents were coming to him with late term abortions and his staff was in on it too. Just wow :eek:.
 
nicolemeooow said:
Doing the exact same thing that this man has done, none of the Obstetricians in China would ever be charged. It is unfortunate how intolerable the society is towards pregnancy outside marriage.
Click to expand...

Are you serious? Did you read the article? Do you think that the laws and norms in China have anything to do with what was done in Philly or why the district attorney is bringing charges against those who worked there?

And how does this relate to an intolerance of pregnancy outside of marriage?? The statistics on babies born out of wedlock in America hardly point to any intolerance on the part of US society in the 21st century.
 
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at first when I read the title I suspected right wing activists of claiming legitimate abortions were murder, until I read the article and had a visceral reaction.
 
This is a very saddening and horrific story. My heart goes out to all those that suffered because of this doctor's terrible actions.
 
LizzyM said:
Are you serious? Did you read the article? Do you think that the laws and norms in China have anything to do with what was done in Philly or why the district attorney is bringing charges against those who worked there?
Click to expand...

Umm yes I am serious. Abortion at any stage of pregnancy is legal in China. Maybe I should have been more specific. "Exact same thing" means abortion at any stage of pregnancy (including induced labor). Not in the "barbaric" way described in the article tho, because it is legal and performed in big hospitals. I'm not trying to suggest anything. Just that this article reminded me of the cruel fact in my beloved home country. Whether laws and norms in China has anything to do w/ this tragedy is hard to pin point. However, I can somewhat understand the drive behind the patients who sought for later term abortion at that clinic (after all, none of this would have happened if no women wanted to do it). Cultural norms deeply rooted in one's culture can direct the mind into seeking this type of illegal health care regardless of the popular cultural norms (i.e. it is okay to have children outside/before marriage). Late term abortion is brutal and inhumane, I agree. But in cultures such as my home country's, if the fetus doesn't die, the mother has to (not literally but no one would ever marry her and she would be looked down upon forever). It is sad but true.
 
LizzyM said:
Are you serious? Did you read the article? Do you think that the laws and norms in China have anything to do with what was done in Philly or why the district attorney is bringing charges against those who worked there?

And how does this relate to an intolerance of pregnancy outside of marriage?? The statistics on babies born out of wedlock in America hardly point to any intolerance on the part of US society in the 21st century.
Click to expand...

I was referring to the Chinese society
 
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nicolemeooow said:
Umm yes I am serious. Abortion at any stage of pregnancy is legal in China. Maybe I should have been more specific. "Exact same thing" means abortion at any stage of pregnancy (including induced labor). Not in the "barbaric" way described in the article tho, because it is legal and performed in big hospitals. I'm not trying to suggest anything. Just that this article reminded me of the cruel fact in my beloved home country. Whether laws and norms in China has anything to do w/ this tragedy is hard to pin point. However, I can somewhat understand the drive behind the patients who sought for later term abortion at that clinic (after all, none of this would have happened if no women wanted to do it). Cultural norms deeply rooted in one's culture can direct the mind into seeking this type of illegal health care regardless of the popular cultural norms (i.e. it is okay to have children outside/before marriage). Late term abortion is brutal and inhumane, I agree. But in cultures such as my home country's, if the fetus doesn't die, the mother has to (not literally but no one would ever marry her and she would be looked down upon forever). It is sad but true.
Click to expand...

What are you talking about. this is so off topic

40% of American babies are born to unmarried parents. this guy kills babies.
 
FIREitUP said:
at first when I read the title I suspected right wing activists of claiming legitimate abortions were murder, until I read the article and had a visceral reaction.
Click to expand...


I was thinking the exact same thing, but then... WHAM!!!


It's crazy to me how he could have gotten away with this since '93 when he was first suspected of illegal abortions. Not to mention the trophies he kept around his office (babies feet)... WTF!?
 
Perrotfish said:
I wonder if his patients will be charged as well.
Click to expand...


Some weren't told they were past the 24 week window... Others are probably long gone and undocumented anyway... The one they have is dead...
 
Stixman28 said:
What are you talking about. this is so off topic

40% of American babies are born to unmarried parents. this guy kills babies.
Click to expand...

Didn't u see the key word "in China"
Gosh...
and if u saw my earlier post at all -- I was just drawing some parallels b/c this incident reminds me of what is going on in my home country.
 
Wow, I really hate to say this but I'm surprised that only 8 women died because of this man.

Paying out $50/hr in staffing total and charging $3,000 for an illegal abortion this man is the definition of greed. How does the IRS or employees working there overlook what was really going on?

Pretty sickening human being. Too bad he's 69 years old and will only spend a few years in prison before he dies (if he makes it that long by the time sentencing comes around)
 
Why can't you legally do abortions after 24 weeks? Where do they come up with this number?
 
WingedOx said:
ok, who wants to track down where he did his med school and residency? :cool:
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Bam.

Gosnell got his medical degree from Thomas Jefferson University in Philadelphia and is board certified in family practice. He started, but did not finish, a residency in obstetrics-gynecology, authorities said. "He does not know how to do an abortion. He's not board certified," Assistant District Attorney Joanne Pescatore said. "Once he got them there, he saw dollar signs and did abortions that other people wouldn't do."

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2043166-2,00.html#ixzz1BWt4PMdD
Click to expand...
 
TheProwler said:
Probably because they're viable outside the womb at that age.
Click to expand...

Not really related to this, but what happens to a physician that isn't board certified or completes a residency?

They still have the degree, but what does this mean for job prospects? No one will hire a non-board certified physician or someone who never completed a residency? Private practice would be the only way to go?
 
mitchlucker said:
He went to Jefferson, and never completed a residency.
Click to expand...

Affiliated with UPenn according to this website, but it is basically only a block away, ie. I wonder if they know about the "affiliation": http://www.healthcare.com/profile/kermit-d-gosnell/

( oh penn, do you really need another scandal so soon?
re: http://spotlight.vitals.com/2010/03...rect-radicoactive-seed-implants-not-uncommon/ )


nicolemeooow said:
Didn't u see the key word "in China"
Gosh...
and if u saw my earlier post at all -- I was just drawing some parallels b/c this incident reminds me of what is going on in my home country.
Click to expand...

I read your earlier post. it was just an insanely early hijack
 
MediCynical said:
kind of off topic, but the physicians on that "wall of shame" are ridiculous...

EX: Craig A Bittner, MD, 49, Beverly Hills
INVESTIGATED, use of liposuction fat for his SUV fuel
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]"Hey, they said for us to cut down on fossil fuel use.".
Click to expand...
I thought so too. Are they for real? I was surprised by the number of doctors on that wall of shame.
 
mitchlucker said:
He went to Jefferson, and never completed a residency.
Click to expand...

He completed a Family Medicine Residency, after failing to complete an OB residency

They still have the degree, but what does this mean for job prospects? No one will hire a non-board certified physician or someone who never completed a residency? Private practice would be the only way to go?
Click to expand...

If you don't at least complete an Intern year, you can't practice medicine. It's illegal and you can go to jail for it.

If you complete an Intern year but choose not do do/complete the rest of residency you can, legally, practice a very basic kind of family practice. Keep in mind that legally being able to practice something is not the same as being able to prove that you provided the standard of care in a court of law, so odds are you're going to need to live somewhere that's not very litigious. Also, of course, you're going to need to go somewhere with no other options, or no one would go to you and no insurance company would agree to reimburse you. Your best bet would probably be an acute care clinic in Rural Alaska/Louisiana/some other very red state. This option may vanish entirely in a few years.

Basically, you're going to have to complete a residency. Accept that fact and move on.
 
Stixman28 said:
Affiliated with UPenn according to this website, but it is basically only a block away, ie. I wonder if they know about the "affiliation": http://www.healthcare.com/profile/kermit-d-gosnell/

( oh penn, do you really need another scandal so soon?
re: http://spotlight.vitals.com/2010/03...rect-radicoactive-seed-implants-not-uncommon/ )




I read your earlier post. it was just an insanely early hijack
Click to expand...


oops, I guess I should have read the whole article. But as a soon to beJeff grad, I do find this darkly amusing. The pedophile pediatrician in Delaware graduated from our residency as well.

...that said, Penn will always trump us for scandals (cough*JamesWilson*cough)
 
:barf: !!!!!!

Really wasn't expecting that when I clicked the link...how awful
 
FIREitUP said:
at first when I read the title I suspected right wing activists of claiming legitimate abortions were murder, until I read the article and had a visceral reaction.
Click to expand...

x2
 
nicolemeooow said:
Doing the exact same thing that this man has done, none of the Obstetricians in China would ever be charged. It is unfortunate how intolerable the society is towards pregnancy outside marriage.
Click to expand...
could you possibly be from further out in left field
 
I read this this morning but as with similar threads there should be a description of the article in the OP instead of being a mystery link. That being said the whole scissors in the spinal cord thing was pretty horrifying.
 
LizzyM said:
Are you serious? Did you read the article? Do you think that the laws and norms in China have anything to do with what was done in Philly or why the district attorney is bringing charges against those who worked there?
Click to expand...

The person might be referring to forced abortions in as late as the eighth and nine months of pregnancy. It's not technically legal, but some women in China are forced to abort. Read the article from NPR.

The only differences between what happens in China and in America is that here it was the mother's choice to have the abortion.
 
That's awful... and creepy. and he got away with it for 17 years??
 
It's okay to kill a 23 weeker even though there is a very remote possibility that one might survive. 25 weeks, then you're in. You get to live.

What about the women who knew that they were over the 24-week deadline (no pun intended)? They chose to undergo the risks associated with having an illegal abortion. Of course, since abortion is legal under 24 weeks in America, then whatever you do before then is whatever; it's what the mother wanted. I don't think that I could do anything like that. These women must have been very scared and desperate.

Are you guys are familiar with the born alive infant protection act? There are many babies who survive the initial moments after an attempted abortion. Some are just thrown away, some are left in an empty room or the roof. There are stories of mothers freaking out because their baby comes out alive, they suddening feel remorse and the desire for their baby to live, and have to face the abortion staff who refuses to help the infant or is too scared to call 911. Since, the purpose of the woman being there was to get rid of her baby.

Ugly situation. Makes me sick, but that just might be the post pregnancy hormones swirling around in my body.
 
StudyShy said:
It's okay to kill a 23 weeker even though there is a very remote possibility that one might survive. 25 weeks, then you're in. You get to live.

What about the women who knew that they were over the 24-week deadline (no pun intended)? They chose to undergo the risks associated with having an illegal abortion. Of course, since abortion is legal under 24 weeks in America, then whatever you do before then is whatever; it's what the mother wanted. I don't think that I could do anything like that. These women must have been very scared and desperate.

Are you guys are familiar with the born alive infant protection act? There are many babies who survive the initial moments after an attempted abortion. Some are just thrown away, some are left in an empty room or the roof. There are stories of mothers freaking out because their baby comes out alive, they suddening feel remorse and the desire for their baby to live, and have to face the abortion staff who refuses to help the infant or is too scared to call 911. Since, the purpose of the woman being there was to get rid of her baby.

Ugly situation. Makes me sick, but that just might be the post pregnancy hormones swirling around in my body.
Click to expand...

Well, assuming the abortion was done legally, the baby wouldn't be viable, so calling 911 wouldn't really make a difference. It would be horrible for the mother to have to watch their baby die, but I don't really see much of an alternative.
 
the duck said:
Well, assuming the abortion was done legally, the baby wouldn't be viable, so calling 911 wouldn't really make a difference. It would be horrible for the mother to have to watch their baby die, but I don't really see much of an alternative.
Click to expand...

Some babies are incorrectly dated, and even 23 weekers (under the magical 24 weeks) have been known to have survive.
 
StudyShy said:
Some babies are incorrectly dated, and even 23 weekers (under the magical 24 weeks) have been known to have survive.
Click to expand...


This is why most docs won't abort a fetus past 20 weeks.
 
Amongst all of the disturbing things in that article, I'd like to point out this one:


A high school student was administering intravenous anesthesia.



I have to ask myself a few questions about that...
- How did he manage to recruit a teenager?
- Wouldn't you think that a teenager would say to themselves "Hmm, I'm not even old enough to vote, am I old enough to do this?"
- Did their parents know?

Also,
- Wouldn't the babies-feet-in-jars concern you, if you were like 17 and working in a "doctor's" office?

And, most importantly,
- Were they a med-school-hopeful thinking that this would be an awesome way to demonstrate to adcomms their unusual level of clinical experience? :confused: :(



It is very upsetting to think that something so bad can be happening, and such a large number of people can just stand there, letting it happen.
 
StudyShy said:
Some babies are incorrectly dated, and even 23 weekers (under the magical 24 weeks) have been known to have survive.
Click to expand...

Yes, after months in a NICU, several million dollars and many mental and physical problems because of asphyxia and other complications related to being vastly premature.

At the hospital here no NICU doc will resus a baby earlier than 24 weeks (even with questionable dates because lets be honest - the 24 and 25 week old odds aren't much better). The pain of watching your infant die in the first few minutes of life is devastating. Watching it slowly suffer and die months later is worse.

Premature births are tragic, but the need to push the limit earlier and earlier is flawed.
 
MCATism said:
Amongst all of the disturbing things in that article, I'd like to point out this one:


A high school student was administering intravenous anesthesia.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I wonder if he's going to be charged with anything. He's so young.

As far as everyone else just standing there...some people really don't know any better (and will trust the doctor) and I'm guessing the doctor hired those people.
 
That is just awful. I felt sick after reading that article.

And how the hell does he go one with it for so many years? Why did they never investigate complaints until now?
 
StudyShy said:
It's okay to kill a 23 weeker even though there is a very remote possibility that one might survive. 25 weeks, then you're in. You get to live.

What about the women who knew that they were over the 24-week deadline (no pun intended)? They chose to undergo the risks associated with having an illegal abortion. Of course, since abortion is legal under 24 weeks in America, then whatever you do before then is whatever; it's what the mother wanted. I don't think that I could do anything like that. These women must have been very scared and desperate.

Are you guys are familiar with the born alive infant protection act? There are many babies who survive the initial moments after an attempted abortion. Some are just thrown away, some are left in an empty room or the roof. There are stories of mothers freaking out because their baby comes out alive, they suddening feel remorse and the desire for their baby to live, and have to face the abortion staff who refuses to help the infant or is too scared to call 911. Since, the purpose of the woman being there was to get rid of her baby.

Ugly situation. Makes me sick, but that just might be the post pregnancy hormones swirling around in my body.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the legalisms of abortion are pretty awful. Keep in mind that in over a dozen states it's perfectly legal to kill a term infant if it's still in the womb. You inject in with something to kill it and no crime has occured. The only national law concerning abortion (which only passed in 2003) is the partial birth abortion act, which state that you can't kill a term child by disarticulating it's neck when it's partway out of the mother (intact dilation and extraction). So to review, a woman goes into labor (induced or otherwise) and:

1) You inject her infant with poison before she begins to deliver. It dies a terrible death. No crime has occured.

2) You break the child's neck when it's feet are still in the mother: You've performed an illegal procedure and you're going to jail for a maximum 2 years.

3) You break the child's neck when it's lying on the table after delivery: you're a murderer.

WTF is wrong with our system?
 
The imagery with this clinic in general is awful. Garbage bags, litter boxes, high school girl anesthesia....You know this is going on in other places too.
 
alwaysaangel said:
Yes, after months in a NICU, several million dollars and many mental and physical problems because of asphyxia and other complications related to being vastly premature.

At the hospital here no NICU doc will resus a baby earlier than 24 weeks (even with questionable dates because lets be honest - the 24 and 25 week old odds aren't much better). The pain of watching your infant die in the first few minutes of life is devastating. Watching it slowly suffer and die months later is worse.

Premature births are tragic, but the need to push the limit earlier and earlier is flawed.
Click to expand...

Hopefully you won't go into gerontology. Why spend all that money and time on someone who is going to die soon anyway? DNR every person over 50 and deny them medical insurance. Why treat someone with pancreatic cancer? They're going to die soon anyway probably.
 
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