Unbelievable...Even for them!

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I'm going to ignore everything else in this thread to see if I can get out of here without being harassed by either side. Both in this thread have made good and bad points.

I assume, J, that you're referring to the notion of government-run / single payer health insurance. An interesting argument for it that I can remember from Victor Fuch's books (professor of Economics at Stanford, has been covering healthcare policy for decades) - competition. Sounds paradoxical doesn't it? His stance, if I recall correctly, is that it's difficult for there to be competition in healthcare because, well, when you get sick, you need it. People don't really have other options when they need help. Having a large single payer means that there is now leverage. There is a large consumer that all healthcare companies want a piece of. Potentially, costs are lowered.

This is my personal addendum to the idea. Most of these ideas come from "History of Public Health" by Rosen. Lowered costs lead to additional benefit. Saved and pooled resources are used to help those who cannot afford it. Why is this important outside of the realm of social justice? Public health has been found to be important since ancient Greeks were around. Preventing/treating illness in the poor prevents health issues from spreading to the rest of society. Keeping the overall population healthy results in less lost productivity since people get to do their jobs.

Now, I know that someone is going to immediately complain since, well, this is the internet. Actually read Fuchs' work or stfu. Fuchs explores the topic of universal healthcare, but it is only a single point in his work. There's much, much more he goes on to talk about. Example - he explores what might be gained by providing people with buying power, either by returning money or lowering taxes, and allowing them to invest it as they see fit.

At one point, he makes the conclusion that healthcare or insurance reform can only do so much. If there are a disproportionate amount of sick people, then things will continue to be expensive for everybody. This idea is probably the basis for Pelosi's diet proposal, which, yes, is utter insanity.

I would start with "Who Shall Live?". It's a good introduction for someone who has never studied economics seriously at the college level (this is beyond econ 101). He lays out a lot of the basic principles and factors that are being considered. Also, there are a lot of economic concepts that are explained regarding supply/demand.

Okay, I'm leaving now and never coming back. I don't even read the politics sections on CNN now because it turns my stomach. A personal opinion - if you actually want to debate an issue, it's easier to get productive discussion when you don't whine with phrases like "Princess Pelosi" or "Nazi". They serve no purpose except to increase vitriol on all sides.

Residents and medical students don't have time to read economics books for fun. What I do know is that the majority of the patients I've seen in clinics have preventable diseases. Diabetics chowing down on mcdonalds, feeding their 2 year old son chicken mcnuggets, patients on a statin still smoking 1 pack per day. And now you want me to pay for the healthcare of these idiots because they can't afford it? Get out of here. These patients should actually pay higher premiums than the average healthy person, but all these politically correct jack@$$es believe everyone needs to be treated equally and we can't discriminate. Overeating is an illness, addiction to cigarettes is an illness, cheating on your wife is an illness/addiction (tiger woods). I really wish America would just shut their f'ing mouths and take responsibility instead of whining "it's not my fault, I have an illness." Wake up folks - actions have consequences.

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Reading a lot of your posts makes me feel good knowing that there are other brilliant and like-minded individuals out there.

Thank you.

KILL THE BILL
 
why is this even in the pre-do section to begin with...
 
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What I do know is that the majority of the patients I've seen in clinics have preventable diseases. Diabetics chowing down on mcdonalds, feeding their 2 year old son chicken mcnuggets, patients on a statin still smoking 1 pack per day.

I wasn't aware stupidity was a preventable disease.
 
Godwin's law invoked.

I had never heard of this before now. Thanks. Of all the drivel that is produced from this thread, every unoriginal biased talk point tossed in will pale in comparison to your informative comment.
 
I wasn't aware stupidity was a preventable disease.

Wouldn't education serve as the curative for stupidity, assuming you'd want to look at it as a disease? While it is true that most physicians would not view an uneducated mind in the same manner as say one with Alzheimer's, you could always forge new grounds. Hey the neurosciences are always looking for out of the box thinkers.
 
Medicine is the one profession that flies in the face of natural selection.

People have no sense of humor anymore when it comes to culling the herd jokes.

And, no, actually nothing flies in the face of natural selection. You're suggesting, essentially, that modern medicine has effectively made genetic drift the predominate determinant of allele frequency in human populations. We know this isn't the case and we know selection is still acting on human populations.
 
Just going to drop a little raw info and try to keep opinion out of it (Im generally only slightly left of center, so it wont be too hard).

The facts are this. America spends MUCH more per person on healthcare than any nation in europe and north and south america. Its neither good nor bad (i'll get to that) its just a fact at the moment.

When WHO takes stats they are not skewed. Believe me on this one. They are raw data and the information isnt counted differently. I actually heard that argument put forward once on ABC (I would love to say fox, but not everything can fit the stereotype) and political nuts, doctor and statisticians went NUTS on ABC's forums because it was so untrue (and yes i saw cited examples in their arguments). We really do rank as among the lowest of all the 'westernized' societies in many of our health determinants.

As a statistic, which represents an average of all american healthcare, our current system does bad. BUT this is because we have a system of two sides. It turns out if you compare those with private health insurance (esp if its above some threshold of pay, but i forget what it is) we have one of the strongest healthcare systems. But this doesnt change the cost or the fact that you only get that by removing those on gov't healthcare and/or without healthcare.

Gov't healthcare (medicare medicaid) patients alone show higher results than our 'average'. Its not competitive with most of europe, but it isnt as deficient as the stats tossed around make us look either.

It is the uninsured who have such terrible outcomes time and time again in our system (again, as a statistic. im sure everyone has an anecdote about some homeless person who received miracle care on the penny of every other taxpayer and is now the ast manager at the local starbucks and rents an apartment). We have such a large uninsured population who 1) do not go to seek care until it is dire and 2) when they do seek care are given the absolute minimum since pay per procedure drives the whole machine.

What we *NEED* to fix is the uninsured. The important question is how do we do that? Argue amongst yourselves about if its a right or not, but you can do a google search right now and find out that actuaries pretty much all agree that it is cheaper to give someone bottom of the line healthcare for free or at low price and have them use it than to have an uninsured person never use healthcare until it requires massive treatments they cant afford and get passed onto the tax payers. In short, uninsured people cost us more than insuring them. Thats pretty much agreed fact on both sides, but i find that both sides (and i'll be honest reps more than dems, but both) ignore that fact when it contradicts the point they are trying to make.

Now is the proposed system right? I have plenty of opinions and I, like everyone else, think i'm qualified to spout on and on about them. but this doesnt seem like a good forum to do so to me. Just wanted everyone to keep in mind that we ARE the most expensive system, and we ARE among the lowest performing 'modern' systems. But its not across the board, its because we are massively deficit in 1 category of our citizenry, quite good at another category and amazing at the third. And that deficient third brings us all down statistically.

plus... they cost everyone money. We need to do something. Feel free to argue amongst yourselves as to what you can do about them and how it will cost or save money til you're blue in the face. Thats the right argument to focus on first. Dont lose the forest for the trees, as the saying goes.

EDIT: wow. if you read all of this, im impressed with your dedication. I started typing and never knew it was gonna be this long. my bad guys.
 
People have no sense of humor anymore when it comes to culling the herd jokes.

Jokes of this kind are archaic and typically steeped in bigotry. In all fairness, it was a clever spin on the topic at hand and I suppose I over analyzed the joke. At the time, I didn't find much levity in the statements you were making about stupidity =/= preventable disease. I'm not going to say it was unfunny but even comedic genius taken in the context of this politically charged thread is a tough sell for some of us.

And, no, actually nothing flies in the face of natural selection. You're suggesting, essentially, that modern medicine has effectively made genetic drift the predominate determinant of allele frequency in human populations. We know this isn't the case and we know selection is still acting on human populations.

Indeed, I suppose I am making that assertion. Natural selection has taken a back seat to genetic drift for humans, in my opinion. I'm not saying natural selection doesn't still occur. If you want to take the stance that medicine's impact on natural selection is nil and you honestly believe that then... I can't help you. I'd like to change your mind but if you don't think medicine shields us from the last few natural threats humans face, namely pathogens, then I'll leave it at a failure to establish a common dialogue. When I say medicine curbs natural selection by saving the life of someone that would have died without medical intervention I'm not including those cases that came about through some traumatic accident where reflexes and decision processes would have made no difference.

Just to be clear here, I'm not saying natural selection is canceled out or muted by medicine. And I'm not trying to claim that natural selection loses out to medicine in the end either. The main purpose of medicine isn't always aligned with that of natural selection but depending on perspective you could venture that medicine is pro evolution of super resistant diseases. So if that's how you are looking at it then we can agree on the fact that in a grander sense of things it might be better stating that medicine takes part in the evolutionary process as an adversary to natural selection from our perspective but from the bacteria's perspective it's a selective pressure for adaptation.
 
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No they don't. She sounds like a blathering idiot. That botox leaked into her brain.



Pelosi doesn't need anyone to make her sound ridiculous. She does that on her own just fine.

What we need is free psychiatric care for people in her district because voting for her is a sign of mental illness.

Isn't Liberalism a Mental Disorder? I love Savage, he makes me smile.
 
No, only natural selection can do that.

Last I checked natural selection tends to favor stupid. Who tends to have 8 crack babies and who decides to have one or two children in their mid to late 30's?... I'll let you guess
 

i'm going to quote the lynchpin of this argument:
First, it's shaky ground to compare U.S. infant mortality with reports from other countries. The United States counts all births as live if they show any sign of life, regardless of prematurity or size. This includes what many other countries report as stillbirths. In Austria and Germany, fetal weight must be at least 500 grams (1 pound) to count as a live birth; in other parts of Europe, such as Switzerland, the fetus must be at least 30 centimeters (12 inches) long. In Belgium and France, births at less than 26 weeks of pregnancy are registered as lifeless. And some countries don't reliably register babies who die within the first 24 hours of birth. Thus, the United States is sure to report higher infant mortality rates. For this very reason, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which collects the European numbers, warns of head-to-head comparisons by country.

now i'm going to point out that there isnt a single doctor in the US who would list any child under 1lb, or 12 inches as a live birth. Those fall well, well, well within the category of non compatible with life, which we qualify as still births in america, even if it has reflexes for the few seconds it 'survives' outside of the womb. We list full anencephalics (children born without any brain beyond the brainstem) as live births (as does all of europe for that matter) and they are garunteed to die within 24 hours in 99% of the cases.... and yet we would never ever consider labeling any of the above categories as a live birth. But we would never consider those two categories as possibly sustainable except in extremely rare cases, and they aren't counted as possible to sustain either.

To be fair, I'm unsure about the 26 week mark. I know it is well below what my biochem doc (a big time OBGYN) said is the earliest you can deliver a child and expect it to survive, but I'm aware that 26 week olds can survive under ideal conditions. Over here, the 24 week mark is considered the viable/non-viable point in the US (Though a 24 weeker it does have a 50% survival rate at that point if induced into a prepared NIC-U, I'm assuming its pointless to try even a few days earlier than that). Long story short here is that the 26 week one may have a point, but i cant find any sign at all that this is the protocol in either france or belgium. Not doubting US news, i'm sure it has its sources, i just know so little about this decision because the sources clearly aren't easily locatable on the internet.

Our birth rate stats are low because... they... are... low. Birth is terribly traumatic for both mother and child. We have high mascarraige/spon abortion rates (which really only speaks to our environment, and just maybe diets, not our healthcare since thats mostly genetic/traumatic), high infant mortality and high maternal mortality. And its partially because of lack of healthcare leading to lack of prenatal and neonatal care causes complications and deaths that could easily be avoided if the patients felt comfortable going to the doctor to receive care as recommended, rather than waiting for big problems to come up (pre and neo) and/or the birth itself.

you cant compensate for things like SIDS, trauma or other spontaneous things. But its the level and frequency of care for those who cant afford the care that drags us down. What does it mean to someone like me, on private insurance? Not much directly, but i'm ashamed nonetheless. It may just be a stat to me, but i know that its a stat because children (and sometimes mothers) are dying that shouldnt be dying because of a cultural climate.

Again, i dont feel like addressing the "how". I just ask that whatever we argue about, we keep in mind that fixing the problem of people refusing to seek care til emergencies (primarily because of the prohibitive cost) is the issue to be addressed. toss in whatever pork (dems) or screaming about inefficiency (reps) you want as long as it provides for those people.
 
I do not beieve the governments ide of health care is the right one. The bill has limitting on the tests that physicians can do, limitting on what will be covered. I have spoken to many people who live in countries with socialized health care, and I have friends who are Doctors in these countries. Their main gripe is that they see the same number of patients a day for the same pay and it's grueling.

I think unless you are part of an HMO here you get to choose, since I don't know the ins and outs of every clinic, well....I cannot speak for everyone.

Many of the Doctors know that a drug is avialble in one area of their country or antoher county, but it's not covered where they are. Can you imagine if a life saving drug was not avialble to a patient? I know that in some cases this is also true in the US, and we wait years for things to be approved, but it's better to know that you can get something. For instance a physician friend of mine in a European country related the story of a woman who needed a life saving cancer drug. Sh had to jump through many hoos including somehow establishin residency in the area tat the drug was available. It was 300 miles away.

Well to her it was stressful to lie to have to be always on her guard to get a drug. She ultmately survived, but the inconvenience of getting treatment cost her a lot financially. She actually had to purchase a residence in the area, still remained with the doctor's in her home area for treatment, but was traveling to establish residency in the other area.

This is true fight in a patient from what I can tell, but my goodness, what a hassle, while that happens here in the US, people have access to health care.

In this country doctors are frustrated at times, my own recent experience is a drug therapy that would have helped me, but as a college student putting out $500 which is my 50% copay on a name brand drug is not helpful to me. I couldn't come up with $500 on a fly if I wanted to. I crtainly could raise it, but.....that takes time, luckily it is something that won't kill me. My physician opted for a lessexpensive generic that treated me well enough in combination with another inexpensive generic. I know that this signals the need for healthcare reform, but the government taking over is not the best idea. We need to give drug companies something that makes writing off drugs as charitable donations worthwhile, give Dr's the same for writing off care they give.

I saw something about stupidity and people eating McDonald's and such. We all know it's TERRIBLE for us. As a college student I am having to really watch my food costs. I subsist on a diet of yogurt, kefir, vegetables, Campbells Select Soups, and fruit donated by parents. This diet in the extreme is not to healthy for you either. I don't buy yogurt sweeteed with sugar, and without fat. I have to supplement with a multivitamin and fish oil. Sometimes that's tough to afford. I don't leave my campus but rarely, and attend nothing that costs anything and don't eat out. I walk to everywhere on campus. I am still not in that great of shape. It's getting better, but still not the best. Many of my roomates opt to eat once a day at McDonalds off the dollar menu due to time constraints. I understand their choices, and if I had to run all over the place, I am rooming with a nursing student, a student teacher and a youth ministry major, I'd probably be tempted by those options too. What about families whome are dirt poor? I mean we have this ideal that people have the choice to get out of it, but many are never given the chance, and they follow the example set for them. Many simply know nothing better. Education will help, but sometimes it takes MANY generations for this eduation to kick in.

Yes the uninsured wait until things are DIRE......you have to go somewhere that will treat you. That's usually a hospital, and even then, it's a tossup if someone will take pity on you. I rmember being wthout insurance and having to call around until someone would treat me for a simple infection and give me a sample of antibiotics. I was very greatful. I think the reform we need is to allow Doctors to make their own decisions on how to treat people and hospitals.

In my poor county on vacation I was recently home and went to Wal-mart to pick up a prescritption. It's cheaper than using my prescription coverage at my HMO pharmacy in most cases. In front of me was a young woman who could not afford her antibiotics. It solidifed my want to become a physician even more so. I could not offer her any money, I was on my last ten bucks myself. Sh ewas begging in the parking lot for her prescriptions. I said in my head i hope someone helps you. I know there's help, butto get help she had to wait until Wed. The only day the free clinic is open here. If I had been a physician, I surely could have fgiven her a sample or spared her $22.00 to pay for the medication. Reform takes place with each indvidual, and how we relate to those around us. Why not start groups that go door to door once week in our poorer neighborhoods, to the elderly, to those whom are unemployed, work at making sure they know they have access! I cannot begin to tel people where access to healthcare is. I try to keep a running list of places around me, so I can refer people.

This is how healthcare should be reformed, not through the gv't throwing money at it in a blanket, but all those funds save them for the people that want to help and put healthcare first. Let them have bigger tax write offs, or allow them certain other priveleges, but keep the gv't out of healthcare reform, they'll only make it worse.
 
Last I checked natural selection tends to favor stupid. Who tends to have 8 crack babies and who decides to have one or two children in their mid to late 30's?... I'll let you guess

I'm sticking to my side in this one and stating that natural selection is at best keeping the human genetic code conserved. I will say sexual selection is doing wonders for female aesthetics though. I defy you to try and compare chicks from yonder year to the present.
 
now i'm going to point out that there isnt a single doctor in the US who would list any child under 1lb, or 12 inches as a live birth. Those fall well, well, well within the category of non compatible with life, which we qualify as still births in america, even if it has reflexes for the few seconds it 'survives' outside of the womb. We list full anencephalics (children born without any brain beyond the brainstem) as live births (as does all of europe for that matter) and they are garunteed to die within 24 hours in 99% of the cases.... and yet we would never ever consider labeling any of the above categories as a live birth. But we would never consider those two categories as possibly sustainable except in extremely rare cases, and they aren't counted as possible to sustain either.

To be fair, I'm unsure about the 26 week mark. I know it is well below what my biochem doc (a big time OBGYN) said is the earliest you can deliver a child and expect it to survive, but I'm aware that 26 week olds can survive under ideal conditions. Over here, the 24 week mark is considered the viable/non-viable point in the US (Though a 24 weeker it does have a 50% survival rate at that point if induced into a prepared NIC-U, I'm assuming its pointless to try even a few days earlier than that). Long story short here is that the 26 week one may have a point, but i cant find any sign at all that this is the protocol in either france or belgium. Not doubting US news, i'm sure it has its sources, i just know so little about this decision because the sources clearly aren't easily locatable on the internet.

Our birth rate stats are low because... they... are... low. Birth is terribly traumatic for both mother and child. We have high mascarraige/spon abortion rates (which really only speaks to our environment, and just maybe diets, not our healthcare since thats mostly genetic/traumatic), high infant mortality and high maternal mortality. And its partially because of lack of healthcare leading to lack of prenatal and neonatal care causes complications and deaths that could easily be avoided if the patients felt comfortable going to the doctor to receive care as recommended, rather than waiting for big problems to come up (pre and neo) and/or the birth itself.

you cant compensate for things like SIDS, trauma or other spontaneous .

Someone else already broke this down earlier in the thread but there is no conspiracy here- raw data is reported. Numbers are calculated by the WHO or CDC and it goes from there. If you are interested in exactly what constitutes the categories it is listed under the chart, for instance the clear breakdown on what is included as a neonatal death. Go to Who.org and check it out. Also you should be aware that neonatal and infant mortality are two different categories. I have filled out fetal and neonatal death paperwork- it is extensive, comprehensive, and clear on what you are reporting.

Also, generally speaking, birth is not and shouldn't be terribly traumatic for mother and child.

JCAHO recently released a sentinal event alert on maternal mortality. The top causes of maternal death are DVT/PE, c-section complications, and hypertensive disorders. With the exception of HTN, the leading causes of death are iatrogenic for the most part. Countries with lower rates of intervention coupled with accesible health care have the best outcomes.
 
Someone else already broke this down earlier in the thread but there is no conspiracy here- raw data is reported. Numbers are calculated by the WHO or CDC and it goes from there. If you are interested in exactly what constitutes the categories it is listed under the chart, for instance the clear breakdown on what is included as a neonatal death. Go to Who.org and check it out. Also you should be aware that neonatal and infant mortality are two different categories. I have filled out fetal and neonatal death paperwork- it is extensive, comprehensive, and clear on what you are reporting.

Also, generally speaking, birth is not and shouldn't be terribly traumatic for mother and child.

JCAHO recently released a sentinal event alert on maternal mortality. The top causes of maternal death are DVT/PE, c-section complications, and hypertensive disorders. With the exception of HTN, the leading causes of death are iatrogenic for the most part. Countries with lower rates of intervention coupled with accesible health care have the best outcomes.

oh im with you on all of that. I seem to have forgotten to make my "point" in my argument. I've done a little bit (prob just enough to have an informed argument) of OBGYN volunteering and paperwork fun (not fun). I know exactly what youre talking about. haha, i was just pointing out that someone linked out to an article saying that WHO cant be trusted and is biased against america (okay, thats overstating it, but if anyone can click the article right now and read exactly what it said) and i was just noting that its main argument is deeply flawed. And it builds its entire point against the WHO rankings on that idea. I thought the article was absolutely silly, but im trying to keep myself (who was a poly sci major before going to med school and ends up arguing way too easily) and my opinions out of stuff and just be a random fact checker when i look at this thread.
 
Let's face it, the system is screwed up. People use and abuse it everyday, and no one is turned away. Working in a moderate sized ER I see people come in who have logged 30-40 visits in less than a year. And never paid one cent. And when they show up with their bogus complaints of chest pain they get full work-ups, the same, nothing more or less, as someone with insurance. Or they'll be there with their 20th complaint of abdominal pain, get full work-ups as they demand a meal be provided to them because they've waited so long. And as these "poor" people wait for their "free" $1000 dollar work ups, they talk on their top of the line cell phones, text with $50 fake fingernails, send out their family to get them Macdonalds, sneak out to have a cigarette and when you discharge them with instructions to use an OTC med (that may cost $5) they whine about it and ask for a script so that their title 19 will cover it for free.

So what will happen if all the uninsured suddenly get their shiny new free insurance card? Where will they go? There will not suddenly be a glut of newly minted doctors to treat them. So they'll flock to the ER and further screw up them system. Yeah it's really screwed up. But for God's sake don't just pass a healthcare reform plan just to say you did it without knowing what it is going to do. Where's the transparancy on this thing? Where in the process did the people of this country have the opportuntiy to weigh in on this? And will someone tell me anything (other than defense) that the government has gotten involved and actually made things better? Do you like how things are run at the DMV? Well that may very well be what a visit to your doctor will look like.

And besides all of this, where is the money to pay for any of this? Guys the country is broke. We are in a very big hole right now in terms of debt and there is nothing left to fund another entitlement. This plan, if passed, may just send the U.S. over the edge. And if that happens becoming a physician and providing for those in need will be the least of your worries as you will be one of them.
 
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The dems are officially tacking on student financial aid reform to the health care bill because they don't have the votes in the senate for it ...
 
The dems are officially tacking on student financial aid reform to the health care bill because they don't have the votes in the senate for it ...

What do they plan to do about student financial aid?
 
What do they plan to do about student financial aid?

Put it under full government control ... the same thing they want to do with everything else.



To be honest, I haven't read into it much ... just read an article about attaching it to the HC bill.
 
It's a pain to get financial aid no matter what, even when you're poverty level and below. There's just no money for Healthcare or Financial Aid. I wonder what their version of Aid will be, you have to work in government run medical facilities to pay your loan off, and like the military they own you until it's all done?
 
Put it under full government control ... the same thing they want to do with everything else.



To be honest, I haven't read into it much ... just read an article about attaching it to the HC bill.


All of this is about government control. They don't actually care about health care. It's just another avenue for power.
 
Put it under full government control ... the same thing they want to do with everything else.



To be honest, I haven't read into it much ... just read an article about attaching it to the HC bill.
The right wing big government snark is unfortunate because it is an important topic that deserves a deeper look. It is also very unfortunate that democrats are using it in an attempt to pass other legislation because it really is an important topic that deserves its own forum and this puts it under greater risk of failure.
I think that if you did some research you would agree that our current student loan practices require restructuring. As an example see the following. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...030.html?mod=WSJ_hps_sections_personalfinance


That said, the free flowing talking points and vitriol in this thread are disconcerting. I guess that is just politics...
 
Princess Pelosi said yesterday of the healthcare bill, "...it's about diet, not diabetes." In another speech, she said, "We need to pass the bill so you can figure out what's in it."

Now how dumb do these socialist leaders think we are? I agree that we need to focus more on preventive medicine, but do we really want the government to pass a bill that will control our diet? And do they really think the people should support this bill before we actually know what is in it? These comments by Pelosi really frightens me because it shows their total disregard for the public opinion, and their ignorance of medicine. To think that taking the salt of restaurant tables and imposing a soda tax will cure diabetes is complete ignorance. What's next, deciding how much tp pay doctors based on the results of their patients, oh wait, that's in the bill too.

Is there anyone out in SDN land that actually agrees with the philosophy shown in Pelosi's speech? If so, please enlighten us.

Funny, I put the snippets of her speech into Google and was bombarded by right wing websites regurgiposting them verbatim. Thanks for continuing the trend.

Anyways, when examining the whopping 19 words you have decontextualized for your sullen purposes, let us first examine them recontextualized:

“You’ve heard about the controversies within the bill, the process about the bill, one or the other. But I don’t know if you have heard that it is legislation for the future, not just about health care for America, but about a healthier America, where preventive care is not something that you have to pay a deductible for or out of pocket. Prevention, prevention, prevention—it’s about diet, not diabetes. It’s going to be very, very exciting.

“But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy. Furthermore, we believe that health care reform, again I said at the beginning of my remarks, that we sent the three pillars that the President’s economic stabilization and job creation initiatives were education and innovation—innovation begins in the classroom—clean energy and climate, addressing the climate issues in an innovative way to keep us number one and competitive in the world with the new technology, and the third, first among equals I may say, is health care, health insurance reform. Health insurance reform is about jobs. This legislation alone will create 4 million jobs, about 400,000 jobs very soon."

Perhaps I'm the crazy one, but the diet/diabetes comment just sounds like an alliterative way of saying that reform is intended to shift emphasis to preventive measures rather than the largely treatment-based system we have now.

Furthermore, the second comment, when you leave the rest of the sentence on, does not strike me as very sinister. The text of the Senate bill has been available for months, and the reconciliation portion is relatively small.

So, medschoolfamily, it is my humble and unsolicited opinion that you have been played. If I were you I would be upset.

Incidentally, here is a preceding paragraph of the speech that you will not find on glennbeck.com:

"We have to do this in partnership, and I wanted to bring up to date on where we see it from here. The final health care legislation that will soon be passed by Congress will deliver successful reform at the local level. It will offer paid for investments that will improve health care services and coverage for millions more Americans. It will make significant investments in innovation, prevention, wellness and offer robust support for public health infrastructure. It will dramatically expand investments into community health centers. That means a dramatic expansion in the number of patients community health centers can see and ultimately healthier communities. Our bill will significantly reduce uncompensated care for hospitals.
 
Put it under full government control ... the same thing they want to do with everything else.

Then your path is clear, pay for your own medical schoolin' via one or more of the following ways:

1. Out of pocket.

2. From family contributions.

3. With 100% private loans.

4. Via a series of barbecue fundraisers.

Furthermore, when you become a resident be sure to return your Medicare-funded package of salary, benefits, and malpractice coverage to the US Treasury. I will think of you every time I make a payment on my 2.85% Government DirectLoan.
 
Then your path is clear, pay for your own medical schoolin' via one or more of the following ways:

1. Out of pocket.

2. From family contributions.

3. With 100% private loans.

4. Via a series of barbecue fundraisers.

Furthermore, when you become a resident be sure to return your Medicare-funded package of salary, benefits, and malpractice coverage to the US Treasury. I will think of you every time I make a payment on my 2.85% Government DirectLoan.

Wow, first time I think I've seen you post anything over here and it's in the political based thread AGAIN defending the HC bill and anything else the dems want to crap across. Don't worry about how I'm funding my education. LOL yeah like there is ANYTHING I can do about residencies being funded by Medicare. You're right though ... that 40k a year for an 80 hour work week is sweet. Long live the government. Please, give them more control over what I make. Who do I thank for the SGR formula and 1997 residency spot lock??? Who are you going to think of when Medicare is making a payment to you for 21.2% less money potentially starting October 2010 ??? Furthermore, it's not shocking the government can keep interest rates super low ... it's the same reason their government run insurance reimbursement are super low - they don't have to play by the rules.

We've seriously argued to DEATH in the other forum ... you're going to continue to be an "elitist liberal" and I'm going to continue to disagree with the expansion of government. This is pointless and will hopefully NOW be put to rest by about the 21st or so and hopefully we'll never have to hear from each other again. What's even funnier is that all I did was comment that they are throwing this in with the HC bill because they don't have the votes anymore and feel the need to muscle it through with reconciliation - something I'm clearly a huge fan of, and that it is an expansion of government (hard to deny even if you support it). Until then, there is just nothing more I can argue with you about. Go read ANY of the threads in pre-MD if you're looking to relive any of that (which you clearly are). Don't bother responding.
 
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You're right though ... that 40k a year for an 80 hour work week is sweet.

Do you know why residents are called "residents"? It's because back in the day they were only paid them enough to afford food and clothing. They literally "resided" in the hospitals in which they worked, and would clock 80 hours by Thursday morning.

Fast forward to today, with work hour restrictions, wages that allow independent living, health insurance, disability, malpractice... your total compensation package will be much closer to 100K when you add it all together. You will, however, have to listen to the 50+ crowd tell you how easy you have it. That's a real bitch.
 
Do you know why residents are called "residents"? It's because back in the day they were only paid them enough to afford food and clothing. They literally "resided" in the hospitals in which they worked, and would clock 80 hours by Thursday morning.

Fast forward to today, with work hour restrictions, wages that allow independent living, health insurance, disability, malpractice... your total compensation package will be much closer to 100K when you add it all together. You will, however, have to listen to the 50+ crowd tell you how easy you have it. That's a real bitch.

LAUGH. You never disappoint. I'm not going to respond to any of this ... just reminding you that we are done.
 
We've seriously argued to DEATH in the other forum ... you're going to continue to be an "elitist liberal" and I'm going to continue to disagree with the expansion of government. This is pointless and will hopefully NOW be put to rest by about the 21st or so and hopefully we'll never have to hear from each other again. What's even funnier is that all I did was comment that they are throwing this in with the HC bill because they don't have the votes anymore and feel the need to muscle it through with reconciliation - something I'm clearly a huge fan of, and that it is an expansion of government (hard to deny even if you support it). Until then, there is just nothing more I can argue with you about. Go read ANY of the threads in pre-MD if you're looking to relive any of that (which you clearly are). Don't bother responding.

In all honesty, you should really go back to the showdown thread in pre-allo and do a nice, hard read of yeastfan21's post and links. It might make you feel better about the supposed "government takeover" of health care.
 
In all honesty, you should really go back to the showdown thread in pre-allo and do a nice, hard read of yeastfan21's post and links. It might make you feel better about the supposed "government takeover" of health care.

I skimmed it ... noticed a reference to Nixon - laughed, and moved on. What part of 'done,' are you having a hard time with???
 
I skimmed it ... noticed a reference to Nixon - laughed, and moved on. What part of 'done,' are you having a hard time with???

I suppose you can lead a horse to some minimal level of self-education...
 
I suppose you can lead a horse to some minimal level of self-education...

Or to a source of someone who agrees with you politically. Do a quick skim of Yeast's post history. It's no shocker you're telling me to listen to this particular pre-med's two cents on how the world works. Would you like me to give you a link to foxnews and then insult you for not following it??? That liberal bullying tactic never gets old.
 
Or to a source of someone who agrees with you politically. Do a quick skim of Yeast's post history.

I just wanted you to read the sources yeast quotes and links. The simple fact is that the current Senate bill is a moderate approach. A true socialist would want VA for all, or at the least Medicare for all, or at a bare minimum a public option. What did they put forth? Expanding coverage via subsidizing private insurance. Exchanges for qualifiying individuals to purchase private insurance across state lines. Funding for state level tort reform experiments. If I had just come out of a year long coma and read this baby I would have sworn the GOP was at the negotiating table the whole time.
 
I just wanted you to read the sources yeast quotes and links. The simple fact is that the current Senate bill is a moderate approach. A true socialist would want VA for all, or at the least Medicare for all, or at a bare minimum a public option. What did they put forth? Expanding coverage via subsidizing private insurance. Exchanges for qualifiying individuals to purchase private insurance across state lines. Funding for state level tort reform experiments. If I had just come out of a year long coma and read this baby I would have sworn the GOP was at the negotiating table the whole time.

Again ... it's all relative. It's moderate from a liberal perspective and the reason for building a bomb shelter if foxnews is your homepage. The truth is ... it probably wouldn't change the status quo all that much, but I have issues with cost, government expansion, sprinkling 2000 pages of legislation with 3-4 republican ideas and calling it bipartisan, etc. However, none of this changes our POV and arguments regarding the situation, so again, it's probably just best that we don't waste our time. I do think you are quite well informed on the issues, but your political ideology sways your points and lead to that liberal bullying mentality I discussed earlier. Let's just wait until March 21st or so, see what happens, and go from there.
 
I just wanted you to read the sources yeast quotes and links. The simple fact is that the current Senate bill is a moderate approach. A true socialist would want VA for all, or at the least Medicare for all, or at a bare minimum a public option. What did they put forth? Expanding coverage via subsidizing private insurance. Exchanges for qualifiying individuals to purchase private insurance across state lines. Funding for state level tort reform experiments. If I had just come out of a year long coma and read this baby I would have sworn the GOP was at the negotiating table the whole time.

Just curious, what specialty are you in and in what setting do you practice?
 
Again ... it's all relative. It's moderate from a liberal perspective and the reason for building a bomb shelter if foxnews is your homepage.

Funny, I didn't see many bomb shelters being constructed when Romney and the friggin' Heritage Foundation crafted an eerily similar plan for MA.

The only substantive reason the Republicans are opposed to this legislation is that they are gambling it will help their electoral prospects in November. As Jim DeMint said last June, they want this to be Obama's "Waterloo." If they can defeat his primary domestic initiative they can pick up seats in Congress. If they can keep it up then perhaps they can regain majorities and the WH in 2012. Then perhaps we could all FINALLY go back to those paradise years of 2000-2006.
 
The only substantive reason the Republicans are opposed to this legislation is that they are gambling it will help their electoral prospects in November. As Jim DeMint said last June, they want this to be Obama's "Waterloo." If they can defeat his primary domestic initiative they can pick up seats in Congress. If they can keep it up then perhaps they can regain majorities and the WH in 2012. Then perhaps we could all FINALLY go back to those paradise years of 2000-2006.

Argument works both ways ...

The only reason the Dems want it is because they are searching for that victory and want to be known as the party that really changed it all. That jackass sees himself as our generation's FDR. You think Pelosi with her private jets and botox pumped skeleton face gives two sh*ts about how us peons live??? Our health??? PFF no. She wants the same thing Obama does - the victory, the win, the legacy. You think that all the Demos who aren't going to support it are doing so because they really think it's morally and financially irresponsible??? Or do you think they know the rapture is coming in mid-terms, and they want to save their own asses???

I guess if all else fails, they can keep blaming Bush.
 
God it all makes so much sense now ... I seriously cannot stop laughing at you.
 
God it all makes so much sense now ... I seriously cannot stop laughing at you.
What is it with the necon persecution complex. Liberal elitist? You make jokes about democrats but that's OK because you are in the poor poor repressed minority right?

Where were you and your kind 4 years ago when we were hemorrhaging money? Why does it only matter now that the, completely ineffectual mind you, democrats are in office?

I am willing to guess I won't get a response just an ad hominem attack followed by some talking points. LOL
 
What is it with the necon persecution complex. Liberal elitist? You make jokes about democrats but that's OK because you are in the poor poor repressed minority right?

Where were you and your kind 4 years ago when we were hemorrhaging money? Why does it only matter now that the, completely ineffectual mind you, democrats are in office?

I am willing to guess I won't get a response just an ad hominem attack followed by some talking points. LOL

A response to what??? My role in the republicans loosing money for the past four years???

You also missed it in the other thread when parts was comparing Republicans to stroke victims. Classy, appropriate, and funny ... again, it works both ways.
 
The opinions of an ignorant American,

Has anyone ever been to Europe? Most people over there walk or bike to wherever they want to go and take better care of themselves in general ( besides smoking like chimneys). I don't know why they are more apt to following a lifestyle, maybe it's cultural, but I bet that it's not because the government told them to do it.

How about we give tax incentives to hospitals and clinics that give a certain % of primary care to lower socio-economic people?

Oh and rights are given to you by your creator; not by a person, not by a bill, not by a government. If the government gave you a right to healthcare, whats to stop them from saying that this other person has no right to healthcare? In my opinion, they should not have that authority.
 
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